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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Rick Perry to Duck Future Debates?; Occupy Wall Street Protests Continue

Aired October 27, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone, 10:00 p.m. here on the East Coast.

We begin tonight with Rick Perry. He's considering opting out of future debates, which is a choice that any candidate of course is free to make. But "Keeping Them Honest" tonight, the reason he's giving simply doesn't add up.

His campaign manager says they are -- quote -- "examining the opportunities and opportunity costs" -- unquote -- of each upcoming debate.

Shortly before airtime, the campaign put out a statement backing away from the idea of ducking future debates. But last night on FOX, Governor Perry seemed to make it pretty clear, talking about why taking part in the debates so far was a mistake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I don't think anybody's ever run the perfect campaign, and, actually, these debates are set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates.

It's pretty hard to be able to sit and lay out your ideas and your concepts with a one-minute response.

So, you know, if there was a -- if there was a mistake made, it was probably ever doing one of the -- ever doing one of the campaigns, when all they're interested in is stirring it up between the candidates instead of really talking about the issues that are important to the American people about how you're going to be able to get us back to work.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, bottom line, he says the debates are rigged for conflict and against the candidates. But keeping him honest, the candidates themselves agreed on the rules for all the debates including the recent one we held in Las Vegas. That's where most of Governor Perry's complaints break down.

Remember, his first beef is that the debates are set up for -- quote -- "nothing but conflict." Here's a question I asked that night giving him an opportunity to respond to criticism of his health care record.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Governor Perry, in the last debate Governor Romney pointed out that Texas has one of the highest rates of uninsured children in the country. Over one million kids. You were -- you did not get an opportunity to respond to that. What do you say? How do you explain that?

PERRY: Well, we've got one of the finest health care systems in the world, in Texas. As a matter of fact, the Houston -- Texas Medical Center, more doctors, nurses go to work every morning there than any place else in America.

The idea that you can't have access to health care, some of the finest health care in the world, but we have a 1200-mile border with Mexico. And the fact is, we have a huge number of illegals that are coming in to this country and they're coming in to this country because the federal government has failed to secure that border.

But they're coming here because there is a magnet and the magnet is called jobs, and those people that hire illegals ought to be penalized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Now, you can agree or disagree with what he said but it's a perfectly clear on-point, straightforward answer to a pretty simple, straightforward question. A question, I might add, we specifically designed to give him a chance to set the record straight which he did and not to start a fight.

Yet in the very next sentence, it was Governor Perry who starts a fight with a sucker punch, a direct personal attack.

We're going to roll back the tape just a bit so you can see how he makes such a sharp turn from his answer to an attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: And those people that hire illegals ought to be penalized.

And Mitt, you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home and you knew for -- about it for a year and the idea that you stand here before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the height of hypocrisy.

COOPER: Governor Romney?

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Rick, I don't think I have ever hired an illegal in my life. And so I'm afraid -- I'm looking forward to finding your facts on that because just doesn't -- PERRY: I will tell you what the facts. You had the --

(CROSSTALK)

ROMNEY: Rick, again. Rick, I'm speaking. I'm speaking. I'm speaking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So objection one that the debates are designed for nothing more than tearing down the candidates, that doesn't hold up. Governor Perry himself took that opportunity and others to tear down Mitt Romney with what was clearly a prepared attack on the governor.

Then Romney did the same in return. Three years ago Hillary Clinton did the same to Barack Obama and vice versa. Some use a scalpel, some use a meat axe, but it's hard to imagine how to stop it, especially when candidates can pivot, as Governor Perry did, from the question you asked to the -- to the answer or the response they want to give.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: To Governor Perry, the 14th Amendment allows anybody -- a child of illegal immigrants who's born here is automatically American citizen. Should that change?

PERRY: Let me address Herman's issue --

COOPER: Actually, I would rather you -- I would rather you ask the question -- answer that question.

PERRY: Right. I understand that. You get to ask the question, and I get to answer like I want to.

(LAUGHTER)

PERRY: And Herman -- Herman talked about --

COOPER: That's actually a response. That's not an answer but go ahead.

PERRY: Herman talked about the issue --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And he did, just as some of the other candidates steer the dialogue and the direction that suited them or press for more time, or simply took more time. Wasn't the format which, again, they agreed to. It was their own behavior that truly shaped the debate and what they wanted to do in that debate.

Governor Perry also complains the debates don't give candidates enough the time to lay out their ideas. But I want to show you an example of how he used what seems like ample time in a FOX News debate last month. A lot of political observers point to moments like this to explain why Mr. Perry or Governor Perry might want to back away from debates and maybe that's really behind his talk lately of backing away from the debates and also why he's slumping in the polls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: I think Americans just don't know sometimes which Mitt Romney they're dealing with. Is it the Mitt Romney that was on the side of -- against the Second Amendment before he was for the Second Amendment? Was it before he was before the social programs from the standpoint of -- he was for standing up for "Roe Versus Wade," before he was against -- "Roe Versus Wade."

He was for "Race to the Top." He's for Obama-care and now he's against it. I mean, we'll wait until tomorrow and --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That debate was September 22. The next day we did some polling and that was the last time Rick Perry was in the lead at 30 percent. The next poll by FOX showed him in second place. Nearly every poll after that showed him at third at best.

Again, after the story circulated all day the Perry campaign came out with a response. Spokesman Ray Sullivan telling us -- quote -- "There have been eight debates so far. The governor has participated in five of them. But there are 18 debates scheduled between now and the end of January."

Sullivan went on to say, "And at some point the candidates have spent time out with voters in Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina. So I simply questioned whether 18 was a realistic number. That's all. We haven't ruled anything out at all."

Joining us now Democratic strategist James Carville and Erick Erickson, editor in chief of RedState.com and someone excited by the Perry candidacy when he first got in the race.

Erick, what do you make of this? If Governor Perry was a good debater, which by his own admission he's not, do you think he'd be saying, there are too many debates, we're taking up too much time with this stuff?

ERICK ERICKSON, EDITOR IN CHIEF, REDSTATE.COM: No, of course. And it looks like by the end of January now there are going to be 21 which is the most we've had in the last decade.

Look, I don't blame any of the candidates for saying in the December debates a lot of them are on small networks and are going to be lodged at. Yes, they may want to skip one or two. Not all of them.

I think the bigger issue, though, Anderson, is the absolute lack of message discipline. He released his economic plan last week and we spent a week talking about his birth certificate comments, and now we're going to spend another week talking about his debate performances and it's all because of the Perry campaign. COOPER: James, what about this? I mean, is -- what does this say about Rick Perry? JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, a lot. I think the biggest mistake he made was on August 11th when he got in the race. And I don't blame Erick for being frustrated. I think a lot of conservatives thought this is going to be somebody who's going to articulate their position.

He's for a flat tax and then the same day he says no, but you can fill out the regular form if you want to. Part of the attraction is that you get rid of the IRS. That doesn't work. Then he says in his book he's going to eliminate the Department of Education, then he says, no, I'm just going to cut it in half. Then he says he's not going to debate, now he says that he will.

And you're right, this stupid birther stuff. He stepped all over himself. I mean this guy -- and I thought he would be a pretty good candidate. He turned out to be just a terrible candidate. I don't know what's wrong. And I think he's a -- people just kind of exasperated. Then he said, well, I'm not a good debater, I don't want to debate.

Well, suppose you're to win the nomination. You wouldn't debate Barack Obama? That doesn't fit in the Republican culture, that you're suddenly running away from a general election debate.

And by the way, there, you just kind of mano y mano. It's you and the president, and it just -- it looks weak and indecisive and stepping on everything. It's just a terrible campaign. I'm sorry but it is.

COOPER: Erick, I saw you wrote on RedState.com -- quote -- "I don't think the Perry campaign really understand just how uninspired Rick Perry has left his own base of supporters." You also raised the question, is Rick Perry wasting our time? If I remember correctly, you were a pretty big fan of Rick Perry's early on. Are you one of those supporters who you talked about who's been left uninspired?

ERICKSON: Well, I wouldn't say I was a Rick Perry supporter. I certainly like the guy. He is a friend. He announced at my event. You know I am actually really surprised that a governor of the state, the second largest state in the nation, he's been governor for a decade, gets on to the national trail and just flops over.

The campaign has been completely off message. they have yet to find a message. He's actually got some very good policy -- issues from a conservative perspective. But the campaign can't find its foot.

And I get the strong sense, Anderson, that they don't really understand what their own base of supporters, a lot of whom I hear from on a regular basis, are really dejected right now.

Looking at this race, Mitt Romney is capped at 25 percent. Everyone comes up ahead of Mitt Romney. They fall behind, someone else gets ahead of Mitt Romney. The thing is, this guy can be beat by someone. This is the guy who should be able to beat Mitt Romney and yet he's flailing around like someone's cut his tendons or something. COOPER: James -- cut his tendons. James, what is the problem, though? Because, I mean, he is the governor of the state of Texas. He's -- you know, an accomplished politician. Is there such a huge difference between running for a statewide office and running for president at this stage in the primaries?

CARVILLE: Yes. Yes.

Yes, and apparently, he's in over his head. It's evident. It's almost like -- you almost want to like somebody needs to do an intervention on this guy. You know? And say, hey, Rick, let's go back to Texas and -- you know, have some tequila shots and some chicken fried steak, and you know, maybe go out and, you know, do some -- go to some ball games. I mean he's obviously in over his head and the sooner he gets out of this the happier he's going to be. It's just -- this does not suit him at all.

COOPER: So you're saying there's no way he could come back?

CARVILLE: -- slippery slope out there. Well, I don't know about there's no way but unless something really changes here, it's just been awfully disappointing. And I don't see him -- I thought he tried to get a message.

Look, I'm kind of -- was kind of hoping he'd do well. I wanted the thing that protract out. And I want him -- he and Romney to sort of -- I like a good campaign. Erick can understand that.

ERICKSON: Yes.

CARVILLE: This is somebody who likes politics. It's good for CNN. It's good for all of us. It's all fun and, you know, and this is turning into a big nothing. It's just a nothing-burg and it's really disappointing on some level. If anything I'm a little mad about it that he's not --

ERICKSON: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: I wanted it to be more interesting.

ERICKSON: I would give that to James but you know I would say he does have two months. He does have more money in the bank than anyone but Romney. He just brought in some really good team players this week but they're going to have to act very fast because, you know, this debate issue I think really overshadows what is this lack of message discipline.

He can't talk about the issues he wants to talk about because he's having to play defense on the stuff that his spokespeople have put out there or he's put out there.

COOPER: Yes. It's interesting stuff.

Erick Erickson, appreciate it. James Carville, thanks very much. Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight.

Up next, the Occupy Wall Street protesters say they speak for the 99 percent of Americans who are not super rich. We'll hear from Cornel West who stands with the -- with the protesters and a member of the 1 percent who is confronting them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER SCHIFF, CEO, EURO PACIFIC CAPITAL: What do you think my fair share is? What percent of my income do you think would be fair?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get rid of the Bush tax cuts.

SCHIFF: No, no, no. Just give me a percentage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no.

SCHIFF: No.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHIFF: What percent?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marginal.

SCHIFF: So you think -- hold on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a CPA. Ask the tax guy.

SCHIFF: What do you think? What do you think would be fair?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ask the tax guy. What's fair for his clients?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reagan rates. Like your hero Ronald --

SCHIFF: What do you think is fair?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Also tonight, Jack Hanna on why the few surviving animals from that private zoo in Ohio where the guy released all the animals then shot himself -- why those few surviving ones could end up back where the nightmare began and why he says they got a welcome reprieve today.

And later, did Michael Jackson give himself the fatal dose that killed him? Major testimony today in the Conrad Murray trial and both those questions. We're going to talk to our two experts Marsha Clark and Dr. Sanjay Gupta when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, no sign the Occupy Wall Street movement is dying down but protesters will soon face a serious challenge from the weather. Rain today in lower Manhattan's park could become snow this weekend if the forecast is correct.

Protesters who describe themselves as the 99 percent of Americans who are not super wealthy also face a challenge to explain what they want.

Up close tonight, recently investment strategist, Wall Street CEO and radio host Peter Schiff went down to the park where the sign reading "I am the 1 percent, let's talk." He also had a camera crew. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're in the 1 percent.

SCHIFF: Who decides whether -- no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we're in the 99 percent.

SCHIFF: Listen. Wouldn't you like to get in to the 1 percent?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. You know --

SCHIFF: No? You don't want more money? You don't want -- if I offered to put you in the 1 percent right now you're --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not a matter of whether -- and I would pay my share and get rid of the Bush tax cuts immediately.

SCHIFF: Look, OK. Look, wait a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Immediately.

SCHIFF: What do you -- let me ask you a question. Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Warren Buffett than his secretary.

SCHIFF: No. What? Let me ask you a question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will pay my fair share so that these folks could pay their student loans.

SCHIFF: Hold on. Let me ask you a question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could get off of food stamps. Could be successful? Just like you. What are you driving?

SCHIFF: Hold on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don't have a car. SCHIFF: What do you think my fair share is? What percent of my income do you think would be fair?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get rid of the Bush tax cuts.

SCHIFF: No, no, no. Just give me a percentage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marginal, man.

SCHIFF: What percent?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marginal.

SCHIFF: So you think -- hold on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a CPA. Ask the tax guy.

SCHIFF: What do you think? What do you think would be fair?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ask the tax guy. What's fair for his clients?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reagan rates. Like your hero. Ronald Reagan.

SCHIFF: Well, what do you think is fair?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: National average runs close to 17 percent. A whole bunch of people, about 50 percent don't pay any taxes.

SCHIFF: OK. But how much do you think I should pay? What would be fair for me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know what your income is, I can't tell you that. I believe in the progressive income tax. That is fair.

SCHIFF: How much should I pay? OK. Well -- look, all right. I'm paying -- all right. Well that would be a huge tax cut for me. I pay much more than 35 percent of my total income.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is your secretary?

SCHIFF: I am giving the government half of what I earn. You think they should take more?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we should get rid of the Bush tax cuts.

SCHIFF: But that means I would be paying more than half of what I earned to the government.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there's no way you could cut all the expenses you want without increasing revenue.

SCHIFF: And you will? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no way to fix this problem.

SCHIFF: And meanwhile, if you raise my taxes, maybe I will just decide to sell my business and fire 150 people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Peter Schiff joins us now. He's the author of "How An Economy Grows and Why It Crashes." Also with us, Princeton University professor Cornel West, author of more books than we've got time to mention, and co-host of the "Smiley and West" radio program who's also been part of these protests quite often in recent months.

Both, thank you guys for being with us.

Peter, one thing we haven't seen a lot at Occupy Wall Street protests is Wall Street businessmen like yourself going down there. What are you trying to accomplish in doing that?

SCHIFF: Well, you know, I sympathize with the situation that they have but I'm trying to help encourage them to direct their anger towards Washington. You know it's big government that has wrecked the U.S. economy, not capitalism. They need to understand that. And if they really want a bright future to this -- for the country, it's capitalism that's going to provide it. Not government.

COOPER: Cornel West, what do you think of what Mr. Schiff is saying here?

CORNEL WEST, PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, one, I just think it's a beautiful thing that Brother Peter goes down for dialogue. Democracy is all about public discussion.

I think it's very clear that the Occupy movement is very much not about hating any individual but rather we hate injustice, that we hate obscene inequality, and I think Peter would agree that there are human values that are not reducible to market price.

There's precious human life that's not reducible to market calculation and the real question is how do we deal with social justice and market price? There's always a tension there and that's where tire hits the road.

COOPER: Peter -- Peter Schiff, do you think these protesters should be angry at Washington, not Wall Street. But Washington didn't force financial institutions to invest in credit default swaps or offshore U.S. jobs --

SCHIFF: Yes, well --

COOPER: -- or give themselves million-dollar bonuses. Do you think that any of the anger at banks and corporations is justified?

SCHIFF: No.

COOPER: None? SCHIFF: Washington did create that environment. It was the Federal Reserve that kept interest rates down at 1 percent. If we didn't have a central bank keeping rates so low, we never would have had all the speculation, we never would have had the mortgage bubble, and in fact it was Freddie and Fannie, government created entities, that were insuring all the mortgages. That was responsible for the bad behavior.

You know the people down there at Occupy Wall Street, they seem to think --

COOPER: But wait. Aren't people responsible for their own bad behavior? Aren't companies and individuals supposed to be responsible rather than just blaming government for bad behavior?

SCHIFF: Yes. Well, as I -- look, look, If the government liquors you up and now you're drunk and you do stupid things, I mean, you've got to understand why Wall Street made all these mistakes. Remember, I was there for years warning about these problems. I saw this crisis coming from a mile away because I saw how government was distorting the market.

COOPER: Professor West?

WEST: No, no, no. Peter -- but Peter, it was Wall Street that put the pressure on government to undercut Glass-Steagall so that investment banks and commercial banks can merge so they could trade rather than lend, speculate rather than provide resources.

SCHIFF: Well, I -- I don't doubt that.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Let him finish his point. Let him finish --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Professor, finish your point.

WEST: With your politicians who themselves either shaped, influenced by big money, or sometimes just involved in legalized bribery. So I think you got the story wrong. It's really the influence from the outside. It was at 1 percent. It was the oligarch putting their pressure on government.

SCHIFF: The problem is that Washington shouldn't have that influence to give out. The problem is in Washington having the power that people are lobbying to benefit from. But remember, Glass- Steagall was put in place to counteract the damage of another government regulation which was guaranteed bank accounts.

The government has already poisoned the banking system by guaranteeing everybody's account. That's not capitalism. If the government wasn't guaranteeing bank accounts, banks would be a lot more responsible because the depositors would actually care what the banks did with their money, but the government has told the depositors not to care. It doesn't matter what the banks do because the government is going to bail you out.

COOPER: Professor?

WEST: No. No, no, no. We needed governmental guarantee because the level of insecurity and uncertainty was so pervasive in the 1930s that you could not get a financial system off the ground. So you had to have some kind of --

SCHIFF: That's just not true. It's not true. No.

WEST: You have to have some basis --

SCHIFF: No. That's just not true.

WEST: The free market that was going on in the 1920s didn't require some kind of government intervention to allow some stability?

SCHIFF: No.

WEST: Are you denying that?

SCHIFF: No. It was --

WEST: Are you denying that?

SCHIFF: No. It was the Federal Reserve -- yes, I am denying that. It was the Federal Reserve --

WEST: No. No, I think you're wrong.

SCHIFF: -- in the 1920s that was just too loose, that's why we had a stock market bubble in the 1920s. We had a depression because Roosevelt and Hoover didn't let the free market work. They tried to prop everything up artificially. They interfered with the free market. We didn't even get out of the depression until we ended the Second World War. That's how long the government delayed that correction.

WEST: No.

SCHIFF: Yes.

WEST: No, no. We need to have coffee. We need to have coffee and Cognac to wrestle through this. I think you're absolutely wrong on that, my brother.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: This is going to require both coffee and Cognac? Uh-oh.

WEST: Yes, I think we're going to need a little Cognac to work this out, Brother Pete. I think you're --

SCHIFF: And we're not going to solve the problems that you're talking about -- we're not going to solve the problems that you're worried about by raising taxes on the people that produce the wealth, that create the jobs, that start the businesses.

WEST: No, no, but --

SCHIFF: That produced the products.

WEST: But, no, Peter. Peter --

SCHIFF: If we're going to help the poor it's free market capitalism that's going to do it. Not government redistribution.

WEST: No. If we had taxes on financial transactions of stocks and on derivatives -- why? Because it's unproductive speculation that's been driving so much of this problem.

SCHIFF: I agree with you. That's being driven by the Federal Reserve, but I don't want to send more money to Washington. That's not going to grow the economy.

WEST: Not just -- that's not the Federal Reserve.

SCHIFF: That's going to grow the government.

WEST: That's greed. That's corporate greed on Wall Street unregulated by any ideals of justice.

SCHIFF: No. No. No. Because the government -- because the government is taking away all the market regulations and replacing it with less productive, less effective government regulations.

Look, return the sound money. Let interest rates go up. We're not going to have all this speculation. We'll have real investment on main street. But we're not having that now because the Federal Reserve and the government are getting in the way.

WEST: But there's a gap between small business and mega- business. It's the mega business that is not subject to market discipline. Small business has been subject to market discipline.

SCHIFF: But why is that gap --

WEST: How do you deal with mega business? You've got to decentralize it. If they're too big to fail --

(CROSSTALK)

SCHIFF: But the reason that gap is so big -- the reason that gap is so big is because government policy. Because of the Fed. If you go back to a real free market capitalistic system, that gap is going to close on its own.

WEST: No, no. How could that be? I mean how free is your capitalism? We had child labor laws. We wouldn't even have the weekend if it wasn't for the labor movement. That was free -- that was free market capitalism, too.

SCHIFF: No, of course -- no. WEST: Workers work seven days a week.

SCHIFF: No. It was the free market -- no. It was the free market that ended child labor and working on the weekends by raising the productivity of workers.

WEST: No. It was organized people from below like the Occupy movement.

SCHIFF: Of course. No, it wasn't labor. That's a bunch of nonsense.

(CROSSTALK)

WEST: It was organizing from below.

SCHIFF: That is liberal propaganda.

WEST: It was the muckraking of Upton Sinclair and others.

SCHIFF: No. No.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHIFF: It's free market capitalism that lifted the standard of living. That's what made workers more productive because we gave them tools. It was capitalism that created that from savings, from investment. And all that came because we had a free country. We had limited regulations, limited government, limited taxation, and we blew it. We had a huge lead and we blew it all because we embraced socialism.

COOPER: Cornel West, I got to give you the final thought.

WEST: All right. Brother, we didn't have free trade unions until the 1930s because of the power of the bosses that's crushing the unions.

SCHIFF: Thankfully. Yes.

COOPER: Let --

(CROSSTALK)

WEST: That was not free market --

SCHIFF: And then the unions destroyed the businesses.

WEST: That was not free market capitalism that created --

COOPER: We're going to have --

WEST: The unions had to do that on their own. SCHIFF: The auto workers in Detroit made more money before the unions than they did after the unions.

COOPER: I'm going to -- I got to jump in here, guys.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHIFF: -- they work for thriving companies that didn't need bailouts.

COOPER: It's a fascinating discussion. We'd love --

WEST: It depends on what --

COOPER: We want to have you both --

WEST: But I wish we had more time. I want to debate my brother Peter directly on this. I tell you that.

COOPER: Here's the deal. We'll have both -- we'd love to have both of you back on and with a lot longer time, maybe next week. And we'll --

WEST: Well, I appreciate that.

COOPER: Yes. It's a good dialogue and one that's important.

SCHIFF: Any time.

COOPER: Peter Schiff, thank you.

SCHIFF: Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER: Cornel West, Professor, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Just ahead: The family of Libya's dead leader, Moammar Gadhafi, plans to file a lawsuit. Find out who they're targeting and why in a moment.

Also tonight, why three leopards, two monkeys and a grizzly bear that survived a night of terror after their owner released them and then shot himself will be staying put now at the Ohio zoo but the widow of the man who shot himself and released them, she wants them back.

Jack Hanna joins me now with the new development -- in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Tonight, a new twist in the story that sent Zanesville, Ohio, into a panic last week. Dozens of wild animals including this bear were on the loose for hours released by their owner Terry Thompson who then killed himself right after releasing them.

Armed police were sent to the scene and by the next morning, 49 of the exotic animals were dead including 17 lions and lionesses and 18 Bengal tigers -- tigers and lions roaming free in Zanesville. The 73-acre farm where Thompson kept them as pets is just a few miles from a high school. A grizzly bear, two monkeys and three leopards were captured alive, taken to the Columbus Zoo about 50 miles away. Amazingly no humans were hurt in this bizarre incident. It's not exactly what police officers train for. They didn't have tranquilizer darts on them. They only have an hour of daylight before darkness fell and the animals would possibly have escaped even further away.

Today, the Ohio Department of Agriculture issued a quarantine order, which means the animals will stay at the zoo for now. Thompson's widow was planning to take custody of them today.

Joining me now, Jack Hanna, director emeritus of the Columbus Zoo and host of "Jack Hanna's Into the Wild."

From what I understand, you got a call early in the morning from your colleagues at Columbus that Ms. Thompson was heading to the zoo to take the animals back, supposedly with a horse trailer. From what I read, what went through your mind when you got that call?

JACK HANNA, DIRECTOR EMERITUS, COLUMBUS ZOO: Like you, Anderson, I mean, I went to New York last night to do some shows. This morning, all of a sudden I got a call about 5:30 this morning saying she's coming to get the animals. I said -- these guys have been up. They only got it late last night. I said, "You're kidding me. There's no way. You're going to take them back there, where the carnage happened a week ago? It's impossible." And I said, "You've got to call the governor." And I said, "Plus, they're in quarantine. Say they're in quarantine."

They called the state. The state goes, "What are you guys talking about?" You know, so the governor issued the order -- not the governor, the head of the Department of Agriculture issued the order, they're to go nowhere.

Because, Anderson, even an animal from an accredited AZA zoo, American Zoological Association, you wait the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We go through stringent processes of being accredited. One of those is every animal -- I don't care if it's from San Diego or our animal goes to San Diego -- every animal is put in quarantine, Anderson, for at least 30 days. Depending upon what type of animal, it could be longer.

So we've got -- just remember something. These animals went through you know what last week. So we bring them there to get them calm and get them eating, which they're doing now. They look pretty good. And the testing, which is to start is, a matter of fact, any day now, but obviously, we don't want to put the animals down again after they just got there last week.

So nobody is able to go -- I said, those animals are not going anywhere. I don't care if it's state or federal law, because we've got to figure out what to do with the animals and to see if they're free of disease because of our collection at the zoo.

COOPER: Do you have any reason to believe...

HANNA: It's unbelievable.

COOPER: Do you have any reason to believe the situation at her property is -- is an appropriate location for these animals to be living? I mean, you know, were the -- what were the conditions like? Is she capable of caring for these animals?

HANNA: Anderson, the question is, her husband went to prison for a year. She left him. Remember that? My question is, so I understand she didn't go back to take care of them. So now all of a sudden she wants the animals back? She says she has a love for them. She may have a love for them, Anderson, but you don't love something and put them in the horrid conditions that were up there.

There's no way, over my dead body -- and it might be that pretty soon -- that those animals are going to go back there to the same conditions and I'd wake up tomorrow morning saying -- let's say they got out again. Can you imagine what they'd think of not just the zoo but the state of Ohio? Are we crazy?

And these new rules coming up, Anderson, let me tell you something. They're going to be the most stringent rules in any state in the United States of America. There's a committee still out. They're going out now. For example, perimeter -- I haven't announced this yet. Perimeter fencing, an inspection by a veterinarian once a year. There will be a people made up of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, a zoo person, a HSUS person, about five people to inspect that place once a year. Plus, they need to have the proper habitat, proper insurance policies, as well as acquisition disposition, where the animals come from, where they're going to.

Out of all those few things I just mentioned, there are going to be some more, by the way. I'd say about 90 percent of the people or more won't be able to have a pet lion or a grizzly bear running around in the backyard.

COOPER: It's fascinating stuff. Jack, we'll keep in touch with you about this and see what happens. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

HANNA: Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER: Coming up, testimony in the Conrad Murray trial about whether Michael Jackson was addicted to painkillers. We'll have the latest from the courtroom.

Plus, a lot more ahead. But first, Fredricka Whitfield joins us with a "360 Bulletin" -- Fredricka.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello to you, Anderson.

In eastern Baghdad now, at least ten people, including two police officers, are dead in two roadside bomb attacks targeting a police patrol. More than 30 people were injured, according to witnesses.

Moammar Gadhafi's family is planning to file a war crimes complaint against NATO, believing that NATO actions led to his death. That's according to a lawyer for the family. In response, NATO says it is in, quote, "strict conformity with the relevant U.N. Security Council resolutions," end quote.

And on to Turkey now. An 18-year-old boy was rescued from the rubble of an apartment building almost 100 hours after the 7.2 magnitude earthquake hit. The death toll has risen to 535 with more than 2,300 people injured.

And it's a real-life "Slumdog Millionaire" story. A 26-year-old man has won $1 million after answering every question correctly on the Indian version of "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire."

The new millionaire grew up in one of the poorest states in India, and before the game show, he was making about $120 a month.

COOPER: Wow.

WHITFIELD: Anderson, you can guess what he's going to do with that million dollars now.

COOPER: Yes, what?

WHITFIELD: He's going to buy a new house. Of course. Everyone usually buys property. He lives with his wife, his mother, and five brothers. And so he's planning to pay for one big home so all of them can live a little bit more luxuriously than they have been.

COOPER: Wow. Well, I hope he saves some, as well.

Fredricka, thanks very much.

Just ahead in the program, explosive testimony in the Michael Jackson death trial about the singer's alleged addiction to a powerful painkiller. What an addiction specialist said on the stand today and what the medical records show about how much Demerol Jackson was taking.

Also, what one of the most hated men in America said in his jailhouse interview with Barbara Walters. Bernie Madoff speaking out when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: "Crime & Punishment," the Michael Jackson death trial is on track to go to the jury early next week. Today was a big day, with defense calling its last two witnesses, both of them doctors: an addiction specialist and an anesthesiologist.

Most observers agree those witnesses could make or break the case against Dr. Conrad Murray. Randi Kaye joins me now.

Randi, we said it was a big day, with the defense pinning their hopes on an acquittal on the anesthesiologist who took the stand today. What did he say?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're talking about Dr. Paul White. And he is an anesthesiologist, but he's also an expert on Propofol, which is the powerful anesthetic believed to have killed Michael Jackson.

But what he really needed to do was to dispute the testimony from the prosecution's expert anesthesiologist, Dr. Steven Shafer. He said that the only scenario that fits is that Michael Jackson was on an IV Propofol drip for more than three hours before Dr. Conrad Murray even knew that he had stopped breathing.

Now, Dr. Paul White doesn't buy that at all. He says that Dr. Murray never abandoned his patient. Listen to what he said in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's deal immediately with the elephant in the room here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elephant in the room?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The elephant in the room being Conrad Murray has been accused of infusing a dose of Propofol, and leaving his patient. Can you justify that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE : Now, this witness really could make or break the case for Dr. Murray. I mean, the defense really put him on the stand to prove that Michael Jackson was an experienced drug user who may have even known how to use a syringe and may have injected himself, may have overdosed on his own, by accident.

He was also there, really, to toss some water on the prosecution's theory that Dr. Murray used an IV drip or an infusion to give Michael Jackson enough Propofol to stop his heart. Here's more of today's testimony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. PAUL WHITE, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: I read all these documents, and I was somewhat perplexed as to how the determination had been made by essentially all of the experts that Dr. Murray was infusing Propofol. Because in my examination of the documents and the evidence that was described, it wasn't obvious to me.

And I thought that there were questions. If, in fact, Murray had administered the drugs that he described in his conversations with the police department and the doses that he described, I would not have expected Michael Jackson to have died.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Now, Anderson, Conrad Murray, as you know, had told investigators that he only gave Michael Jackson 25 milligrams of Propofol, but there was a nearly empty bottle that measured 100 milligrams found in Michael Jackson's bedroom.

So the defense wants the jury to believe that Michael Jackson may have reached for a syringe and injected himself with more Propofol after Dr. Conrad Murray had actually left the bedroom.

But the state's anesthesiologist says that, even if Michael Jackson did that and Dr. Murray was out of the bedroom, that this would still be considered abandonment by Dr. Murray, and in a sense, of course, it would still be considered negligence, which is what the state is trying to prove, Anderson.

COOPER: And the addiction -- what stood out about the addiction specialist?

KAYE: Well, his name is Dr. Robert Waldman, and he was pretty good on the stand today, in fact. He knows what addiction looks like. He said that Michael Jackson fits the profile. He never treated Michael Jackson, but he did say that he was addicted to Demerol.

And if you're going through a Demerol withdrawal, then you are -- it acts -- it gives you insomnia. You can't sleep. I mean, it almost acts as a stimulant. He said Michael Jackson was absolutely going through this type of thing.

Here's part of what he said on the stand today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROBERT WALDMAN, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: I believe there's evidence that he was dependent upon Demerol. Based on my prior definition and what's known about his public behavior and -- AND this course of treatment, that he was probably addicted to opioids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So this is pretty critical, because if they can prove that he was desperate for sleep, because he was going through insomnia, then the jury might buy the fact that he was desperate enough to inject himself with Propofol without realizing that it would kill him -- Anderson.

COOPER: I want to bring in chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta -- is with us. The idea that he -- that he might have been addicted to Demerol, is that consistent with the behavior that we know he was taking part of?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dr. Waldman made this conclusion by basically looking at documentation of his Demerol use over the...

COOPER: He was getting Demerol from his dermatologist.

GUPTA: He was getting Demerol from another doctor, a doctor who's not allowed to testify in this -- the judge precluded him from testifying in this particular trial. But yes, that's been documented. He received high doses of Demerol, enough that Dr. Waldman said it's consistent with someone who's an addict, as opposed to someone who is, quote unquote, Demerol naive. You give a high dose like that someone who doesn't take a lot of Demerol, much different reactions.

And the second part of what he was saying is that someone who's withdrawing from Demerol, starting to taper their doses, behave in a very consistent way, as well, including feeling just miserable, feeling like the worst flu they ever had, which is something that Michael Jackson also complained about.

COOPER: I also want to bring into the conversation Marcia Clark, author of the book "Guilt by Association," a former Los Angeles deputy district attorney.

Marcia, what did you make of the testimony today? What do you think was the most important?

MARCIA CLARK, FORMER L.A. DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I think the fact that Dr. White was trying to establish that, if Dr. Murray's statement to the police is to be believed, then he did not commit an act that was criminally negligent and that Michael Jackson had to have been the one who administered the lethal dose himself.

Of course, the prosecution can come back and say, "Look, you know, that's GIGO, garbage in, garbage out. You're believing his -- his statement to the police in order to come to your conclusion." The jury is not required to believe that statement. And, given Dr. Murray's behavior in hiding the Propofol, in not telling the doctors about the Propofol for days after Michael Jackson's death, the jury has ever reason to disbelieve what the doctor has said about how much he, himself, administered.

COOPER: And Marcia, I mean, the defense has really been pinning their hopes, it seems like, on the testimony of Dr. White. Did he live up to all those expectations?

CLARK: He's trying to, Anderson. He is trying to. I don't know whether he can or not, to tell you the truth.

I think that the prosecution has built an extremely compelling case. Just the fact that their own expert, the prosecution expert said, "Look, even if Michael Jackson was given the amount that Dr. Murray said, even if we believe the statement that he only gave 25 milliliters of Propofol, he left the room. The fact that he left the room is, in itself, criminally negligent."

And as you know, you've -- you've questioned doctors on your show, Anderson, that have said, yes, that's absolutely so far below the standard of care that that itself is criminally negligent.

I do believe that any doctor who's even marginally ethical would have at least required Mr. Jackson to hire a crash cart, hire a surgical nurse, have these people on hand 24 hours, so that, even if Dr. Murray has to leave the room, Michael Jackson is never left alone. And I think that that -- he didn't even do that. And I think that that ultimately is going to be what wins the day for the prosecution.

COOPER: Sanjay, do you think Dr. White's testimony, medically speaking, was credible?

GUPTA: Well, this guy in some ways is considered the father of Propofol. He's the one that started investigating this drug early on as a possible anesthetic. So he's pretty widely regarded in terms of his knowledge on the subject.

I thought he did two interesting things. First of all, the big question I think Marcia has alluded to is it just seems so bizarre to give this stuff outside the hospital. And he sort of dealt with that. Again, he's being questioned by the defense here. And he said, "Look, that's an off-label use of the medication. Lots of medications are used off-label." It's almost as if he was trying to put Propofol in that same waste basket as a lot of other publications, not really sort of commenting on strange it was.

COOPER: Sanjay, thanks very much.

Marcia Clark, as well, thank you.

Coming up tonight, Ponzi schemer Bernie Madoff speaking out from prison. Hear what he said about his family and why he's happier behind bars.

Also ahead, Courtney and Doug Stodden. That's right. They fight back against the Halloween haters, and they fight their way back onto tonight's RidicuList. We'll explain, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Anderson's back with "The RidicuList" in just a moment, but first, a "360 News & Business Bulletin."

Bernard Madoff says he's sorry for ruining his family but is happier in prison than on the outside. That's what the Ponzi schemer told Barbara Walters in a jailhouse interview. He also said that at one time he considered suicide but didn't have the guts to do it.

On Wall Street, stocks surge after the European Union agrees to a deal to manage its debt crisis. The Dow gained nearly 340 points and hit the 12,000 mark for the first time since August 1.

And this will make you feel a lot better about fast food. A Florida army wife got a big surprise at a Chick-fil-A. Amy Reid takes her family there every Tuesday night. What she didn't know was that this Tuesday night would be family reunion night. Just take a look.

Now, that is her husband, Army Staff Sergeant Tim Reid, delivering chow from the kitchen, and himself from Afghanistan. Nice surprise -- Anderson.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" is ahead at 11 p.m. Eastern. Erin, what's next? ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Well, Anderson, we're going to talk to the guy behind the now famous or infamous ad, depending on how you see it, for Herman Cain. Mark Block, who smoked in that ad. He is going to be our guest, find out what he was thinking there. And also how much money Herman Cain has raised this month. We have that.

Also the super committee. They really matter, but does Congress understand how important that is? We'll talk about that in a big all right that's getting submitted by democrats and republicans. Maybe a breakthrough, Anderson.

Plus, "We Can't Resist." From Scott Brown to Rick Perry, we've got some jokes tonight.

Back to you.

COOPER: All right. Erin, thanks very much.

Coming up, earlier this week, we told you about the October misadventures of our sort of favorite, maybe not, December couple. Now Doug and Courtney tell all about what got them thrown out of that darned pumpkin patch. "The RidicuList" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Time now for "The RidicuList." We've got to do it. We've got to do it. There's no other choice. We're adding once again the Halloween haters who got Courtney Stodden kicked out of a pumpkin patch. Yes, that's right. I'm doing it again.

We told you about this earlier in the week. Newlywed/reality show seekers/ambassadors of love Courtney Stodden and Doug Hutchison went to pick pumpkins. And some of the other customers didn't approve.

Tonight, we're going to hear from Courtney and Doug, their perspective on the incident. There's that to look forward to.

But first, a little background from Monday's show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: According to Radar Online, some parents who took their kids to said pumpkin patch just were not in the Halloween spirit, and for whatever reason, thought Courtney and Doug's PDA was just inappropriate. The Halloween scrooges also reportedly took issue with the way that Courtney was dressed. So after multiple complaints, she got thrown out.

She had no other choice but to walk her festive stripper boots right out of there and show off her pumpkins on the side of the road. There are other photos, oh, yes, but we can't show them on TV. Let's just say they show a little too much crack-o-lantern.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: A little pun there. So Courtney and Doug have spoken out about this on "DR. DREW'S LIFECHANGERS."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG HUTCHISON, ACTOR: We were, indeed, kicked out of the pumpkin patch.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Was she kicked out for the attire?

HUTCHISON: Kicked out for the attire.

COURTNEY STODDEN, MARRIED TO DOUG HUTCHISON: Yes. The women -- the women were, you know, coming up to the manager and complaining.

PINSKY: Because of the kids?

STODDEN: Because of the kids. Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Because of the kids.

Yes. I don't know if you picked up on this, because it was super subtle, but I perhaps Courtney is implying that the women wanted her gone for some reason other than "the kids."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHISON: So a lot of the kids thought -- thought that she was like this pumpkin patch princess. And there was a handful of "concerned moms," who went to the owners and said, "Get her out." And so we were escorted...

STODDEN: And their cleavage was hanging out quite a bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: She is such a kidder! She's 17! So smart. Those concerned moms, mind your own cleavage, that's what I say. The kids were having a good time. The dads were too, according to Doug. Watch him explain as Dr. Drew and the audience try to keep a straight face.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHISON: We even overheard a dad say, "Oh, look." To his little girl, he said, "Oh, look, honey, they have -- they have a pumpkin patch girl this year."

STODDEN: The dad loved it!

HUTCHISON: So a lot of the kids thought that she...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: You can see more with Courtney and Doug on "DR. DREW'S LIFECHANGERS" November 7. Wait a minute, November 7? That's more than a week away. I don't know if I can wait that long. I guess in the meantime, we're just going to have to make do with some of their older interviews, like this one from "E!" online.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHISON: There was nothing illegal or immoral about it. It was just that we found ourselves falling for each other.

STODDEN: And flying on wings of love together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys both made mention a couple of times about wanting to do this, you know, biblically and morally. Talk to me about the issue of premarital sex.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: OK, I don't want to hear the answer to that question, first of all. I do, however, have a few questions of my own.

Courtney, what makes you so enchanting? Why are you so beguiling, yet so elusive? What is your Halloween costume going to be this year? Will it perhaps be, I don't know, something provocative? And most importantly, what the hell are you doing with your face? I have to know.

All right, sorry. No choice. I've got to see it. Can we please roll my favorite clip from "GMA"?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHISON: People are welcome to their opinions. That's what the world is about. If they -- if they need to feel this way, that's theirs to hold, not ours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: What is -- it's like a desperate -- it's like a silent, desperate cry for help, is what that is.

Courtney, you keep doing that thing you do with the lips and the weird things and the touching the lips and the -- you just keep doing it, and we'll defend your right to do it every night on "The RidicuList."

That's it for us. Thanks for watching.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.