Return to Transcripts main page
NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found Not Natalee Holloway`s
Aired November 23, 2010 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, vanishing on her high school senior trip in Aruba. Holloway`s family sitting on pins and needles after a jawbone discovered on the Aruban beach, and tonight, the results are finally in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TACO STEIN, ARUBA SOLICITOR GENERAL: What has been done by the Dutch crime lab is that they investigated into the jawbone that was sent over from Aruba. They did an anthropological investigation and an ordontological (ph) investigation. That mean a dentist investigation. So based on the bone that was presented and on the dental records, investigations were as done. Similarly, simultaneously, a DNA investigation was being done, but we stopped that at the moment we found that we could exclude that the bone might have belonged to Natalee Holloway. We could exclude that because from the dental records, it was established that with Natalee, her wish -- how you call it? -- wisdom tooth had been extracted, and in this bone, there was a wisdom tooth present. So that made an exclusion possible.
QUESTION: But was it determined that it was a human (INAUDIBLE)
STEIN: It`s a human bone.
QUESTION: Female?
STEIN: The experts will not take a guess on that. They say that`s too much mixed material here to say that it was either male or female. It`s human, and it`s of a relatively young age. That`s the only thing they can say.
QUESTION: Again, the identification was made as a result of dental records?
STEIN: Yes, that`s correct. We obtained the dental records from Natalee Holloway from the United States. They were sent in last week. Late Friday in the afternoon, they were sent to Holland. And during the weekend, it had been established that the molar that was in the jawbone that had been found is a wisdom tooth. And from the dental records we got from the United States, we learned that with Natalee, her wisdom teeth had been taken out.
QUESTION: So it was obvious right there.
STEIN: Yes, it was obvious. Right then and there, it was obvious it wasn`t Natalee, yes.
QUESTION: What happens now?
STEIN: Well, within the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, business -- well, business as usual. We go on examining every lead we get. Every information we get will be examined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And there you have it. Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Aruban investigators confirm a jawbone discovered on the Aruban beach is not, you heard it, Natalee Holloway.
For the very latest, let`s go straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session." Jean, I held my breath all morning, and when I read the results on my BlackBerry, I got to tell you, I gasped. What was it like for you in Aruba?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, we were standing...
LALAMA: We`ve lost Jean. We`ll get her back...
CASAREZ: ... the Aruban prosecutor`s office, and we got there early this morning. And then when it was about noontime, we realized that it was midday. And then we found out the results were forthcoming, and all of a sudden, the announcement came that the human jawbone was not that of Natalee Holloway. I think on this entire island, there was a feeling of -- I want to say sadness because everyone wanted it to be Natalee Holloway.
LALAMA: You are so right. And Rupa Mikkilineni, I shudder to think - - you know, for those of us in society not connected to this case, it`s been pretty harrowing for us. I can`t imagine what it just have been like for the family unless they`re just so strong and so stalwart, they were prepared for the worst.
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: You know, Pat, this has been such an impossible time for them. And no, how can anyone be strong enough to withstand five years of not knowing where your daughter is, where your child is, when she vanished on an island holiday? So to answer your question, they were -- they were waiting with bated breath, both Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway, waiting. And you know, the unfortunate thing here is that they were not able to find out sooner. They, just like all of us here in the public, the media, were waiting alongside us, and they received the news at the exact same time that we did.
LALAMA: Yes, and that`s a bone of contention with Beth Twitty. And I want to tell you that we are very grateful to have Linda Allison with us, who is Natalee Holloway`s aunt. And you are the sister of Dave Holloway, her father. Please tell us your reaction. And I`m sorry about the results and what it must mean to your family. But tell us what you think.
LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT (via telephone): Well, I did get a chance to talk to Dave several times today, and we were just -- the anxiety was unbelievable this morning, anticipating what the results were going to be. And we, you know, just again, were almost flabbergasted to hear the news at the same time that everybody else did, that there was no phone call made prior to Dave and Robin or to Beth saying, you know, We`ve gotten the results and it`s not Natalee`s DNA. And so we were just kind of really shocked about the way that it was handled. And I know Dave and Robin are really disappointed and were looking for some closure, and it didn`t happen today.
LALAMA: We are so sorry. And you know, on that matter of alerting family before media, C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain -- and I`ve been covering crime for longer than I want to admit. And isn`t it just sort of the natural course to inform a family before you make some public statement about something so serious and so frustrating?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, I`ve had the unfortunate duty to tell many, many family members and friends about the death of a loved one. And I think it just is a common kind of courtesy when you know these people. And certainly, Natalee`s parents have been down there. They know the prosecutors. It would have been nice to pick up the phone and just let them know, Hey, it`s not Natalee, and we`re continuing to do the investigation. Hopefully, they learned their lesson from this one.
LALAMA: You`d think so. Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist, Florida Gulf Coast University, we`re going to get into more detail later about what they found in their investigation. But basically, for lack of a better phrase, it came down to a wisdom tooth, correct?
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: It absolutely did. It sounds to me like they got the dental records from Natalee, realized that those wisdom teeth, those back molars had been extracted, and then noted on the bone that they had in their care, in their custody, had a wisdom tooth there. That excluded Natalee immediately.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. And Ray Giudice, defense attorney, you know, I guess, in a way, you can say Joran Van Der Sloot ducks another punch tonight, does he not?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, you know, but this also just proves there`s just absolutely no aspect of the Aruban law enforcement hierarchy that is not second rate, just another example how the poor family has been really jerked around -- there`s no other way to say it -- given no courtesy, no heads-up. And the bottom line, from what I understand, is that the dental records have actually been available for a number of days, and it was the fact that the dental records precluded that this was Natalee several days ago. The DNA was just a foregone conclusion.
LALAMA: John Manuelian, also defense attorney, allegedly, Joran Van Der Sloot, when told about a jawbone, laughed, chuckled and shook his head. So today, he must be smiling broadly.
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. When I first heard that, you know, I was probably in the minority when I said that I don`t think he was laughing because he was being, you know, pernicious. I think he was laughing because he knew it wasn`t true. He knows where Natalee Holloway is buried. And when they came at him with that information, he laughed because he just knew that that couldn`t possibly be true.
LALAMA: You know, Caryn Stark, psychologist, give us a sense of something. You know, we cover a lot of these cases. I`m always on these cases. But there`s something about this one that almost emotionally attached itself to me, other reporters, members of the community, the general public. What was it about this case? What is it about this case?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it was the mother and the father were so heartfelt, and the Aruban authorities handled it so poorly. And you got to see all these pictures of this beautiful young girl who had her whole life ahead of her, and the whole thing being, you know, almost resolved, then not. You know, talk about bated breath. I feel like these poor parents, they take this deep breath to be prepared for something, and then they can never let it out. They never get an answer.
And the pain that they`re feeling will never really go away, you know, not -- not unless -- I mean, they don`t even have an idea of what it would be like to find out that it was Natalee, what to expect, if they would, indeed, have some sense of closure. And then they keep getting misled the way that they handled Joran when he was there in Aruba. I think that we`re all so much identifying with what if this was us? What if this was our daughter? It`s heartbreaking.
LALAMA: Linda Alison, aunt of Natalee Holloway, what does the family do next? Does Dave want to continue this? Does he just want to, you know, bury his head in the hands and say, There`s nothing more I can do as a parent? What do you think?
ALLISON: He`s going to continue to do whatever he can. He and Robin want to get some closure. And I know it`s difficult. You know, we continue to get these obstacles in our way, this emotional roller-coaster of thinking that we`re somewhere close to the truth, and we haven`t found it.
But if it means going back to Aruba and doing another search, if we -- I mean, if we knew we had a little bit more concrete information as to go to a specific place to search, I`m sure Equusearch would be right there, helping with all that. But we -- we`re not going to give up. We`re going to see if there`s anything else that we can unturn (ph). And this may go on for a long time, but we`re in it for the long run.
LALAMA: And Linda, let me ask you, did your family also share the same optimism that the rest of us seemed to have that maybe, wow, it just feels like this is it this time?
ALLISON: I think so. As time went on and we got more information from, of course, listening to what we heard with media and experts that were on about the jawbone, and that they had maybe narrowed this down to a female Caucasian, and it was actually a human a jawbone, that when we start narrowing down that type of in, then you start thinking, OK, this really is a great possibility that this is Natalee`s jawbone. And so we had...
LALAMA: And on that -- go ahead, Linda.
ALLISON: I was just going to say, so based on those type things, we just had maybe decided this is probably it, even though I don`t think you`re ever really ever ready or prepared for whatever the answer is going to be.
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, on that note, it turns out that they can`t even identify gender. Is that correct?
CASAREZ: That`s right. All we know is that it is human, and they are not saying if it`s male or female, at this point. They cannot say. But it`s a relatively young person.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEIN: It`s very sad for the parents that this doesn`t give them the closure that we hoped it would bring them. But they must rest assured that we do our utmost to solve the case. I mean, we work as much as we can together with other authorities in the United States and in Holland to bring this case to a solution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Have the remains of Natalee Holloway finally been found?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The results coming out today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The tests are in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) dental records.
STEIN: We could exclude that the bone might have belonged to Natalee Holloway.
BETH TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: Tell me what happened and let me take her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is not Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another lead is a big dead end.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Confirmation that those remains were not those of Natalee Holloway.
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT: I`ve told so many lies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re very fatigued with the reality that we`ve never found her body.
TWITTY: (INAUDIBLE) Joran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re no further along in the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. All right, well, whose jawbone is this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Heather Walsh-Haney, before we address that question of whose jawbone is it, for those of us who aren`t very scientific, narrow it down for us. Basically, they were able to determine that through the wisdom tooth, because she had had hers extracted, there it is. You really didn`t need to do much more, but they did anyway. Explain what they did.
WALSH-HANEY: Well, if you`re -- I guess I`m a little confused by your question, but what I think you`re asking me is, basically, why did it take so long to make this determinate if all they were doing was looking for the presence or absence of one tooth. Basically, by the time we`re 18 years of age, the molars in the very back of our jaw are coming through your gums and you`re chewing on them or you`ll be chewing on them by 21. And based upon Natalee`s dental records, the information that we have is the back molars were removed. They were extracted. So the jawbone that they have had one of those wisdom teeth in place in a place where she no longer had one.
The presence of that tooth should have excluded this bone as Natalee`s right away. It shouldn`t have been left out there, having the mother and the father think that these remains were somehow Natalee`s.
LALAMA: Good answer. Rupa Mikkilineni, NANCY GRACE producer, is there any explanation for all of this? I mean, they -- they further did DNA testing on what appears to be a very deteriorated jawbone and determined that, Gee whiz, there`s -- you know, we don`t really need to do this because we have the wisdom tooth thing. So explain for us why the bother, why the delay.
MIKKILINENI: Right, Pat. Taco Stein, the solicitor general in Aruba, issued a statement earlier this evening explaining this very question. Essentially, the bone -- the jawbone and the tooth arrived in Holland on Sunday. It was analyzed on Monday, and they were attempting to extract DNA from this jawbone. Now, the only way to extract DNA would have been to go into the molar tooth to extract DNA from the area where the molar tooth is affixed to the jawbone.
The problem here is that the bone was very corroded and very porous and in very poor condition. So they felt that the quality of DNA to be extracted would have been such low quality they would not have been able to draw any conclusive investigation and gotten a proper DNA match, even though they had Natalee Holloway`s DNA profile with them in order to match it.
So what they did on Tuesday was telephone Natalee`s parents to request the dental records. Those dental records -- and I believe this happened through the FBI, actually. Those dental records arrived on Thursday. Now, those dental records were not sufficient, so they had to request another set of dental records, which then arrived on Friday. So then they were able to make the determination over the weekend, and Monday and voila, we have the results today.
LALAMA: Very, very interesting. Thank you for that. C.w. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, is it the obligation of law enforcement then now to discover, to determine whose jawbone it is?
JENSEN: Well, certainly, here in the United States, we would. Hopefully, what they`re doing is going through their missing person records, things of that nature to maybe give them some idea of who it could be. Unfortunately, in many places, and Aruba`s probably no different, people live on the street. People kind of live outside of normal ways. And so here in the United States, a lot of times we find transients that have died from natural causes and we aren`t able to identify them very easily. And that could be a big problem for them to try to identify this tooth if they don`t have a clue who it might be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEIN: It was obvious. Right then and there, it was obvious it wasn`t Natalee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s frustrating when you think of Beth Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman has moved heaven and earth to locate her daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really at the mercy of Joran Van Der Sloot.
TWITTY: Let me take her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He (INAUDIBLE) saying, I`ll think about it.
VAN DER SLOOT: (INAUDIBLE) and all for the wrong reasons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news. Officials in Aruba say a jawbone found on a beach does not belong to the missing Alabama girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve never found her body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Natalee was last seen leaving a nightclub with Joran Van Der Sloot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone believes that Joran is responsible for her disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has never been charged in her disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No body, no crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he has confessed to it many times.
STEIN: We obtained the dental records from Natalee Holloway from the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They still want answers.
STEIN: Right there and then, it was obvious it wasn`t Natalee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knowing exactly what happened.
TWITTY: If it was an accident, tell me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would bring a tremendous amount of closure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Linda Allison, aunt of Natalee Holloway and sister of Dave Holloway, her father, you just got off the phone with Dave and he has a message.
ALLISON: I did talk to him during the break. And we had discussed that anyone from Aruba who may be listening tonight who has any information regarding Natalee`s disappearance, as insignificant as it may seem to that person, it could be a piece of the puzzle that we may need. And I would just hope and pray that if they have any information, that they would please go to the police.
LALAMA: Linda, do you have any faith in the Aruban authorities` ability to solve this?
ALLISON: That`s a difficult question to answer. It`s been -- you know, we`ve been five -- over five-plus years into this, and we still don`t know anything compared to day one. And I think there were things that were botched in the very beginning, and we`ve never been able to recover from that. And I do know that the prosecuting attorney that`s there now, it seems to be that he takes these recent findings seriously. I was very impressed with how quickly they moved on the jawbone to get it from Friday to Sunday, getting it actually on an airplane and going to Holland to get this jawbone tested.
So I will say that I was very impressed with that part of it. But I hope that when they consider it to be an active case, that they`re just not waiting for something to drop in their lap, that they`re trying to uncover any new leads, that they`re actively out there talking to residents. Somehow, we`ve got to find some kind of break in this case.
LALAMA: Ray Giudice, you`ve been on the receiving end of aggressive prosecution. How would you characterize what you`ve seen from the Aruban authorities so far?
GIUDICE: Well, let`s contrast it in this case with the authorities in Peru, who have done a very good job. Now, granted, they have a crazy way of running prisons, but they`ve been on that case and they`ve got -- built a good case against Joran from day one. They are -- they know what they`re doing. Aruba doesn`t. And I wouldn`t let that boy go back to Aruba, if I was Peru.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TACO STEIN, ARUBA SOLICITOR GENERAL: What has been done by the Dutch crime lab is that they investigated into the jawbone that was sent over from Aruba. We obtained the dental records from Natalee Holloway from the United States.
It has been established that the molar that was in the jawbone that has been found is a wisdom tooth and from the dental records we got from the United States we learned that with Natalee, her wisdom teeth had been taken out.
It was obvious. Right then and then it was all -- it wasn`t Natalee. Within the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, business -- well, business as usual. We go on examining every lead we get. Every information we get will be examined.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace.
Jean Casarez, legal correspondent for "In Session," where does this leave the Natalee Holloway case now?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, that was the question that I had for Taco Stein. He said we are looking for evidence. It`s an open investigation but we need evidence.
I said, are you talking about forensic evidence? Is that what you need? He said yes. Because they have a lot of statements from a lot of people but they say they need that tangible evidence. And most of all, what they believe they will never get, even if they find remains, is cause of death and they say that is critical here in Aruba.
LALAMA: Yes. Very good point.
And John Manuelian, defense attorney, I hate to say this. I don`t even want to think it, but here it is. Could a perfect crime have been committed in this case?
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what, Pat? I`m afraid that this is going to turn into the same results as the JonBenet Ramsey case. I think this is going to turn into a cold case or an unsolved mystery.
Remember the longer in time this takes, the harder it is to be developed a case against Mr. Van Der Sloot. So at this point the outcome doesn`t look too great. It looks bleak.
LALAMA: Rupa Mikkilineni, NANCY GRACE producer, from what you`re telling me, they could charge him with disposing of a dead body but don`t really want to do that at this point. Did I understand that correctly?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Pat. I spoke with Taco Stein today and he said, look, what we have, given all of the statements and confessions that Joran Van Der Sloot has said -- now granted he`s recanted almost all of the statements, of course.
What he indicated was that from those statements you could gather that he was with Natalee at the time of her death and that he disposed of the body because at least in two of those confessions he does say he either threw her body out into the ocean using a boat of her friend or the other confession, I think, was burying the body somewhere under the new construction of a house on the island of Aruba.
Now he said that the problem with charging him with this, is -- and this would occur if we -- basically the problem with this issue is the -- sentence is very low and very limited. I mean it`s under a year, I believe, is what he indicated to me. So they would prefer to wait and find evidence so they could potentially charge the suspect with murder.
LALAMA: Yes. They don`t -- they don`t want to charge him now and then come up with something big later, and not be able to go back. Correct?
MIKKILINENI: Exactly.
LALAMA: Caryn Stark, psychologist. I`m just -- I`d love to get inside the mind of Joran Van Der Sloot. If he did it and he`s sitting there in prison, is he thinking about it? Is he able to just compartmentalize? How does someone like him think?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`d love to say that he was thinking about it, but if he`s thinking about it is actually is in a pernicious way because he is not somebody who has any kind of compassion.
If he laughed, which they say he did, when he heard about this jawbone, or whether he actually thought that I know better, it isn`t her jawbone, or he was just laughing because the whole thing makes him laugh, either way you look at it, this is an evil person.
He`s not somebody who going to care one way or the other. He`s a liar. We know that he`s a pathological liar. So you can get one statement out of him and then you get another statement. And he has absolutely no feeling about what this is doing to the family.
And in this case, as you asked me before, Pat, why does this family -- why do we relate to this family? We watch his mother go to him over and over again and plead with him. Please, just let me take my daughter home. Let me know where my daughter is.
LALAMA: Yes. And he plays everybody like a yo-yo, is what he does.
STARK: He really does.
LALAMA: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
STARK: This is an awful person.
LALAMA: Yes, I think you`re right.
CW Jensen, retired Portland Police captain, the Aruban authorities have no plan to go talk to him. I suppose there`s no point in it at this point. It`s just going to mess with their minds again like he likes to do.
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Right. I think at this point they`ve talked to him enough, they know he`s going to lie or jerk their chain around. There`s nothing more they`re going to get for him.
Unfortunately, if the Aruban authorities need to have cause and manner of death, I would say the chances of them ever prosecuting him are very low.
I`ve found bodies before in my investigations and with a number of -- you know, years or days that have gone by, it`s hard to tell. Even if you recover a body, it`s very difficult sometimes to tell how they were killed.
What the Aruban authorities really need to do is man up on this thing and try to prosecute him.
LALAMA: Our callers again, patient as usual. Let`s go to Kathy in New York.
Good evening, Kathy. Your question?
KATHY, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, how are you doing? You know, I just wanted to talk about the face-to-face that Natalee`s mom had with Joran. I have to commend her for not ripping his face apart.
LALAMA: Right.
KATHY: But at the same time, don`t you feel like that empowers him a little bit more, like, you know? I don`t know I feel -- I understand why she did, but I also feel like --
LALAMA: You mean -- you think -- you think, Kathy, that it just fed the beast, so to speak?
KATHY: Yes, it`s almost like, ha-ha, you know, more power for me, and looks she`s begging me for information. I understand I would probably do the same thing because you want answers. But I just feel like now he`s laughing even harder. You know what I mean?
LALAMA: That`s a really good question.
And Jean Casarez, you know, you`ve been to the prison. You`ve been there, you know, one on one. Is he laughing at her? Is it feeding the beast for her to sit there? Watch with anguish, she`s pleading as a mother, please give me something.
Did it seem that he`s just enjoying playing the game?
CASAREZ: You know, I think she wanted to catch him off guard. I think she wanted to try something different that maybe this time she would get some answers, a spontaneous statement of some kind. And I think she wanted it documented on tape.
He was calm, he was cool, he was collected, and he had all the answers. He`s very quick on his feet.
LALAMA: Yes, he sure is.
Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist, Florida Gulf Coast University, the chances of some piece of evidence miraculously coming before us, it`s just not looking good at this point five years later.
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY: You`re right. It`s not looking good. The chances of finding human skeletal remains that have been submerged in water are close to nil. But that doesn`t begin to -- or shouldn`t begin to cause law enforcement to slow down on the case.
The fact is, it`s an open investigation and folks need to be systematically looking for the human remains and if we follow the process, if we act as though we can find remains and look for them, there is always a chance for forensic anthropologists or (INAUDIBLE), so to speak, are cold cases.
We`re typically called in when there is very little chance of finding someone. And I`ll tell you, I do about 80 case as year. And so that tells you there is a success rate. Cold cases, the human remains associated with them can be found.
LALAMA: Pat in New York, your question, please.
PAT, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Thank you for taking my call.
LALAMA: Likewise.
PAL: First of all, I don`t believe -- I`m not saying that they did anything but for them to fly the jawbone to Holland, I -- how do we know that they didn`t switch something? I don`t trust the Aruban government.
And did we have any -- you know, the United States examine how they were performing this and also --
LALAMA: That`s -- you know, Pat, go ahead. Go ahead.
PAT: That from what I understood a couple of days ago, this boy found another bone. Whatever came of that? Are they going to examine that, too?
LALAMA: Very good questions, Pat. The second bone is an animal rib.
And you know, CW Jensen, retired Portland Police captain, I was going to ask this question of some, how do we know that what -- you know, I don`t want to demean the Aruban authorities in anyway.
But I have this little conspiracy theory going on in my head that -- you know, how do they -- how do we know that they didn`t just say, yes, you know, we`ll go through the motions and pretend like we`re really investigating this. And really just not give it all it deserves.
JENSEN: Well, I think that they`re doing the best they can do. But unfortunately, just because you`re a cop and just because you`re an investigator doesn`t mean you`re a good homicide investigator. And I think these guys are really lacking in experience. Hopefully they`ll get some help from the FBI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A jawbone found on a beach.
STEIN: An investigation and I`ve done a lot of investigation.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: I`m begging you, please, Joran. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It is not Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a body, it gives a sense of hope that perhaps she was with the way to Venezuela.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Her mother, Beth Twitty, traveling to Lima, Peru, where she confronted --
TWITTY: I feel like when I go back in time, Joran, you know, five years ago I`m thinking, you know, I felt like -- I felt like you didn`t listen to me then.
GRACE: Snuck into the jail and confronted Joran Van Der Sloot.
That jawbone and teeth attached to that jawbone.
CASAREZ: They are trying to determine if it is that of Natalee Holloway.
STEIN: Based on the bone that was presented and on the dental records, DNA investigation was found but we stopped that at the moment we found that it excludes the bone might have belonged to Natalee Holloway.
TWITTY: My journey for justice has not ended.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, we all know that Joran Van Der Sloot sits in a Peruvian prison on a completely different case. The murder of Stephany Flores.
And, Jean Casarez, under writ of habeas corpus, he`s complaining, correct?
CASAREZ: He has been for quite a while. Now there are a lot of things going on in Peru. But one is, his defense attorney has brought this writ of habeas corpus that he`s being held against his will. It`s the same thing we talked about in June that is still going onward because a three- judge panel decided two to one that he was not being held against his will, but the theories were different.
So under Peruvian law, you have to bring in a fourth judge to look at it. And we don`t know of a ruling but beyond that, the criminal case is going forward. It is still in its investigative state.
LALAMA: Ray Giudice and John Manuelian, defense attorneys. Isn`t habeas corpus called the great writ in America because it`s like this umbrella for every sin against a defendant you can come up with?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s the ultimate way for a defendant to get to court. It means bring the body to court before the judge. Many folks all know that during the civil war President Lincoln suspended the habeas corpus, a significant constitutional violation. But it is held in the utmost esteem by members of the bar.
LALAMA: And John Manuelian -- excuse me. I said that wrong. Manuelian. Does he have a legitimate complaint?
MANUELIAN: I don`t think so. I think he`s doing everything in his power to try to shake himself out of jail. He`s obviously doing desperate legal maneuvers because this is a desperate person. I think it`s going to fall on deaf ears. I don`t think he`s going to legally prevail in this matter at all.
LALAMA: Caryn Stark, I want to go back to just about Natalee Holloway just very quickly. I`ve been wanting to ask you this. How do you counsel a family to deal with the harsh reality that there may never be an answer to this case?
STARK: Well, the best way, Pat, really is to get them to go on with their lives. I mean the sadness, you have to recognize it and also agree with them that they will never get over this experience.
But the best thing they could do is the kinds of things that Beth Holloway is doing, getting involved in a cause, really submerging themselves in something where they feel worthwhile or trying to make up for the death of her daughter.
You know, and really, like I said before, you have to be honest and admit that this is a hole in their heart. It will never close. It will just get smaller.
LALAMA: And CW Jensen, retired Portland Police captain, back to the Stephany Flores case. This doesn`t seem like it`s going to be that difficult, does it? You never know.
JENSEN: Well, I think that the information, the evidence that they have in Peru is significantly better than what they have in Aruba. They have the suspect and the victim going into a room together. He comes out on video. She is dead in the room.
I mean, this really is what we call a grounder. I`m not surprised at all that they have a very good case against him.
You know the one thing I think about as we discuss, the Peruvian judges and the Aruban people and things like that, I think that anybody whose child wants to go on vacation outside the United States really needs to look at where they`re sending them.
I think that if the Holloways could do it over again, they wouldn`t send her out of the country.
LALAMA: And Rupa Mikkilineni, in this prison in Peru, I understand that the judge has ordered psychiatric testing. Why would that be? Who wants to know and why -- what his mental condition is?
MIKKILINENI: All right, Pat. Well, I think if you look at the writ of habeas corpus, the crux of the reason itemized in this writ -- really the crux is his confession that Joran says was elicited from him, forced out of him by police.
And so if he can get this confession thrown out, then it`s very well possible that, you know, the writ of habeas corpus could be granted, although it`s not likely. Because if you look at all of the many confessions, even in the Natalee Holloway case, and now the Stephany Flores case, he is constantly recanting confessions.
So I think he --
LALAMA: Yes, that -- go ahead.
MIKKILINENI: Yes. Sorry. I was just going to say I think that the reason that the judge has asked for additional psychiatric examinations is to put that to bed.
LALAMA: Well, you know, Caryn Stark, we talk about him being a sociopath. I`ve heard people say psychopath. Here is the bottom line. Does he know the difference between right and wrong, which is really what matters in court, correct?
STARK: Yes, it does. And I do believe that this man knows the difference between right and wrong. He doesn`t care, Pat. It`s all the same to him. He does what he wants to do.
LALAMA: Well, but -- but that makes me wonder -- that makes me wonder. Can you be a psychopath and still know the difference between right and wrong?
STARK: Yes, because a psychopath doesn`t mean that you don`t have a grasp of reality. It just means that your reality is not the same as me and you, and you`re capable of doing things that you wouldn`t do and I wouldn`t do.
You don`t have a conscience. But are you bright? You could be very intelligent. And do you know the difference between what`s the right thing to do and what`s the wrong thing to do? You do, but you don`t care about the difference. You don`t have feelings the way that we would have feelings. It`s all the same.
LALAMA: And Ray Giudice, defense attorney, back to that confession. You know he confesses to this and then he takes it back. He plays with everybody like a violin. But he is trying to get this particular confession taken back. What chances does he have?
GIUDICE: Well, you know, I don`t think it`s going to come back. But let me agree with Captain Jensen. There is so much evidence in this case. A confession would be nice for the prosecution or for the judges to have. But they don`t need that to get a conviction.
As was pointed out, you`ve got him going in the room, you`ve got the video, you`ve got the body, you`ve got the crime scene. That`s a conviction every day of the week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Does this discovery of a bone fragment in Aruba --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Could it be a new lead in the Natalee Holloway mystery?
CASAREZ: It was through dental records to specifically exclude Natalee Holloway as being the person of that human jawbone.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news out of Aruba on that jawbone not at all connected to Natalee Holloway.
STEIN: For the family this is another tragedy that they still don`t have closure.
TWITTY: I`m begging you, please, Joran. Just please.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Joran Van Der Sloot.
GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot.
TWITTY: Van Der Sloot. Yes. Yes. I know he knows.
STEIN: I noticed in this third confession he makes sure that she`s dead.
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE (Through Translator): Just touched her and there wasn`t anything anymore. It was over.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.
CW Jensen, retired Portland Police captain, regarding the Flores case, apparently the FBI has the hard drive containing the arrest in Chile of Joran Van Der Sloot. Now they`re asking -- those authorities are asking the FBI here to work with them.
Is that a good sign?
JENSEN: Well, it`s a sign that they are cooperating and they`re getting help when they need help and they`re asking for it and that`s good. The FBI has some very good forensic computer guys that can go in, take apart a computer, look at the e-mails, what you are searching for, all those kind of things.
Will that help? It may. It may not depending on, you know, who he was communicating with. But it`s something that needs to be done so it`s good that they`re having experts do it.
LALAMA: And, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session" I just have to ask you, is Joran Van Der Sloot the kind of guy who can survive prison? Or is he fragile and could break at any moment?
CASAREZ: Well, you know, when I was talking to the prisoners in Castro Castro, the big question was, what do you think? Joran Van Der Sloot is here. And they really thought of him as a brother. I did not see aggression toward him.
But -- and if he goes into general population he`s not going to just be in general population. He`s going to be in general population in the foreign wing that will have a lot of Dutch in there.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. Great job, Jean. And to you, Rupa, also.
Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Corporal Gennaro "Gerry" Pellegrini, 31, from Philadelphia, killed in Iraq. He was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, and Expert Infantry Badge.
He loved children. He once handed out 300 flip-flops to Iraqi children collected by a fifth grade class back home. A pro-boxer he won a Golden Gloves title, followed in his father`s foot steps, becoming a Philadelphia police officer. He leaves behind father Gennaro Sr. and sisters Dana and Kim.
Gennaro "Gerry" Pellegrini, Jr., an American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then have a great night, everybody.
END
