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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Swine Flu Fact and Fiction; Balloon Boy Hoax?; Women in the Workplace
Aired October 19, 2009 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: the hoax. That's what it smelled like on Thursday and Friday. That's what authorities are calling it tonight. The balloon family's 15 minutes of fame are over. The parents' day in court could be coming.
Child welfare authorities are involved, new allegations, new evidence that dad, mom, and possibly others fabricated the Colorado balloon scare out of whole cloth and helium -- new questions now about what happens to the kids in "Crime & Punishment" tonight.
Also, flu fears. With the virus spreading, the vaccine scarce and all sorts of bogus treatments and bad advice going around, we have the facts, facts you need to keep your kids healthy and your family safe, plus answers to your questions.
And, later, look around you. Women are about to outnumber men in the workplace. "Digging Deeper" tonight into their growing power in the economy, but also the challenges that remain. Suze Orman joins us tonight.
First up, "Crime & Punishment": the alleged balloon hoax, and the very real chance that Richard and Mayumi Heene could go to jail for it. They're now facing possible felony charges, though the local sheriff says they might not be coming until next week. That's how long it may take authorities to sift through evidence found at the Heene home in Fort Collins, Colorado, and make sense of all the stories that seem to be emerging.
As the sheriff said today, on the bizarre meter, this globally televised, helium-powered morning-show-barfing saga rates a 10. But even as the going gets weird, it's also getting serious. Some are concerned about the safety of Mrs. Heene and the welfare of the three young boys.
A lot has been happening. First up, the latest developments.
Dan Simon in Fort Collins.
Dan, the Heenes could be facing some pretty serious charges.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're looking at about three felonies here, Anderson.
I will just read them off real quick. They're looking at conspiracy contributing to the delinquency of a minor and attempting to influence a public servant. That last charge could carry a prison term of -- of up to six years and a $500,000 fine.
We can tell you that the Heene family is at home tonight doing something that they don't normally do. They're keeping a low profile, waiting for these charges to be filed. And we're told that they could be filed perhaps by the end of the week or some time early next week -- Anderson.
COOPER: And what about -- there's all these stories about prior incidents involving the Heenes. What do we know?
SIMON: We have done a -- we have done some research on this. And we have found a couple of things. We discovered that, in 1997, Mr. Heene had a minor conviction. This was a vandalism conviction back in Los Angeles. Served a couple of days in jail, not -- not a huge deal.
But there was a more serious incident back in February of this year. There was a 911 call that came from the home. It was a quick hang-up, but police came out to the home anyway. And they heard some yelling as they approached the house. When they got to the home, they saw Mrs. Heene, and she appeared to have had a mark on her cheek and -- and a broken blood vessel in her eye.
And the -- the thinking was, perhaps, there was some domestic violence going on in the house. But Mrs. Heene said it -- there was just a problem with her contact lens. And Richard Heene said, no, no problem at all, and that the yelling was to put the children to sleep.
But we can tell you that authorities are concerned that Mr. Heene might have -- have a bit of a temper. They advised his wife to actually seek -- go to a safe shelter over the weekend. She declined to do that. We can also tell that you child protective services also involved now, looking at the family, looking to see if the children might be in a dangerous situation -- Anderson.
COOPER: So, when you say child protective services have been looking at it, have they -- what, have they interviewed the family? Do we know?
SIMON: We know that they're going to start an investigation. We don't think it's -- it's begun yet. But they just want to take a look, actually come to the home, maybe do some interviews, and see what -- what the living situation is like.
COOPER: (AUDIO GAP) have been pitching reality show TV companies in the -- in past about getting on again? I mean, I guess they were on "Wife Swap" twice already. I guess they -- they have it in the blood.
SIMON: Well, according to the -- to the sheriff, clearly, the motive behind this alleged hoax was to better market themselves for a reality TV show.
I mean, you look at the father, he seems to have a forceful personality. They clearly have an interesting family. But the pitches weren't getting through to the production companies. So, according to the sheriff, that's when they cooked up this whole scheme.
I don't know a whole lot about their financial situation, quite frankly. We know that -- that Mr. Heene, according to neighbors, was some sort of a contractor or a carpenter. We did some digging. He doesn't have a contractor's license, and -- and the wife doesn't seem to hold a job.
COOPER: So, we don't really know how they make money?
SIMON: Well, they clearly made some money from doing those "Wife Swap" appearances. And -- and he does do some carpenter work, according to the neighbors.
SIMON: So -- so, perhaps that's where the income is coming from.
COOPER: All right, Dan, thanks for that.
As we mentioned, investigators have already singled out the Heenes' appearance on CNN as evidence that this whole story was a fake. And that's not the only on-air moment that led a lot of people to believe they were acting.
So, let's look at the signs, beginning with the gotcha moment on Thursday night, when Wolf Blitzer, filling in for Larry King, asked 6- year-old Falcon Heene why he didn't come out from hiding when his parents were calling for him. Watch the response. This is how it all began.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
FALCON HEENE, 6 YEARS OLD: Umm, you had said that we did this for a show.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That reaction certainly caught a lot of your attention, a lot of people in the newsroom's attention. And so did dad's reaction when Wolf Blitzer brought it back up later on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: What did he mean, we did this for the show?
RICHARD HEENE, FATHER OF FALCON: Let me interrupt this real quick, because I think I see the direction you guys are hedging on this, because, earlier, you had asked the police officers the questions.
The media out front -- we weren't even going to do this interview. And I'm kind of appalled, after all of the feelings that I went through, up and down, that you guys are trying to suggest something else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Does the lady protest too much?
We call that exhibit A and B.
Next, on "The Today Show," Friday, exhibit C. Richard Heene is asked whether this was all a stunt. And, while that's happening, Falcon throws up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE TODAY SHOW")
R. HEENE: So, that's what he was referring to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa!
R. HEENE: That's what he was referring to when he made that statement.
MEREDITH VIEIRA, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": And I know -- I want to point out that the sheriff's office said last night that they believe your account of what happened. But -- but they do want to question you a little bit more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's great TV.
Is that from a stomach virus or maybe the stress of covering up the truth?
And I love that Meredith Vieira just keeps on trucking ahead.
So, that is exhibit C.
Next: the 911 phone call released on Friday that Mayumi Heene's -- Heene's frantic voice saying her son and their homemade balloon are missing. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: they have both been missing for about 20 minutes?
MAYUMI HEENE, MOTHER OF FALCON HEENE: Yes.
M. HEENE: Oh, we got -- we have got to get my son.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: So, to the sheriff, that was all theatrics from a woman who met her husband in a Hollywood acting school. And, remember, that call was only made after the call was made to the FAA by the Heenes and a local TV station.
So, next, the family video of the balloon floating away from the family's backyard. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa.
RICHARD HEENE, FATHER: Oh, my God. OK. Mayumi, (INAUDIBLE) tether. You didn't put the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) tether down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did! I did!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes. It was the kicking that ruined it for me, frankly.
Now perhaps the most damaging bits of evidence, part of that home video given to "Inside Edition" from the family. We don't know if they sold it, but they didn't release it to everyone, just to the tabloid TV shows. It shows the moments the balloon took off.
It also shows Falcon looking into the camera saying he's going to sneak into the balloon, although I don't know, if you're a child and you're afraid of your dad's anger, why you would then say to the camera you were going to sneak into the balloon.
Anyway, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
F. HEENE: I'm going to sneak inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And that's it.
Even less plausible to many ears, dad's response. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dad, Falcon's in there.
R. HEENE: Where??
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In that ship.
R. HEENE: He was just here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he's in there. Dad, Falcon's in there.
R. HEENE: Where?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Wow. So, there it is, in a nutshell. Make of it what you will.
The questions now: If this were all a hoax, should the parents be charged with serious felonies that carries years behind bars? And then what about the kids? Is it in their best interests to be removed from the home and placed in protective custody?
With us now, our legal analysts Jeffrey Toobin and Lisa Bloom.
Jeff, I just got to start off with you, because, you know, when you call it right, you deserve to be praised for it. And you were way ahead of the curve on this one. You called it like you see it. Let's take a look what you said on Friday night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Very briefly, balloon boy, hoax or not?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No hoax.
COOPER: Really? You don't think so?
TOOBIN: No hoax. I am -- I believe that this is...
COOPER: You believe in balloon boy?
TOOBIN: I believe in the Heene -- Heene?
TOOBIN: Heene family. I think they're -- they're OK.
COOPER: OK. All right. You...
TOOBIN: Put me down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, that is harsh.
TOOBIN: Can I just -- can I -- can I...
TOOBIN: Can I just say in my defense, whatever. OK?
BLOOM: That is harsh. I object on behalf of my client.
TOOBIN: The thing is, I -- I believe in the essential goodness of reality show contestants, all right?
(LAUGHTER) TOOBIN: You know, so sue me, all right?
COOPER: All right.
TOOBIN: That's just who I am.
BLOOM: Do you have my clips from Friday night, by the way?
COOPER: So, now are you still of that opinion? Or have you -- have you...
TOOBIN: Well, it's not looking too good.
TOOBIN: It's not looking too good for the -- for the Heenes, as I now know how to pronounce their name correctly.
TOOBIN: Yes. The -- the -- the -- the circle is tightening, it seems.
But I also do think, in the spirit, I think we need to not get carried away. I mean, fundamentally, what happened here is, there was a false police report made. That is a misdemeanor. To turn it into a conspiracy and taking the kids away, I think we really need to be very careful before we're throwing people in jail for a ridiculous, but still mostly comic, stunt.
COOPER: But they're...
BLOOM: Well, but there's two sets of charges, right? There is the filing a false police report/hoax set of charges. And then there's a whole different set of issues relating to the children.
I mean, getting the children to lie to the police and to the media, potentially endangering the children by taking them storm- chasing, you know, engaging in this crazy behavior, that's why they're being looked at by CPS, I think, not so much because of the hoax.
COOPER: We have got to take a quick -- quick break.
COOPER: But hold that thought.
TOOBIN: I assume we're going to do the whole hour, right? (CROSSTALK)
COOPER: No, no, we're not, just one more segment.
TOOBIN: Because I -- that's the only way to cover this.
COOPER: Sadly, only one more segment.
TOOBIN: OK. All right. All right.
BLOOM: And we're going to have you make more predictions.
COOPER: One more segment with Jeff and Lisa.
As Lisa mentions, there are very serious questions underpinning this absurd story, questions about Mr. Heene's temper, Mrs. Heene's safety, and what happens to the kids if mom and dad face felony charges. Let us know what you think. Join the live chat right now at AC360.com, if you want to congratulate, Jeff, also, on his prescience.
COOPER: Later, flu fears and facts - with the virus spreading faster than the vaccine to stop it. We have got a doctor joining us. You can send your questions right now by going to, again, AC360.com. Tweet them to @andersoncooper, or post them at Facebook.com/AndersonCooper360.
We will be right back.
COOPER: Oh, balloon boy.
While this was happening, it seemed possible that a 6-year-old boy was inside that balloon. But now, of course, we know he never was, and police are saying it was a hoax.
Police have the balloon in their possession, which, I must admit, is a sentence I never thought I would ever find myself uttering, but the balloon is in police possession.
CNN's Jim Spellman's got an up-close look at the contraption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: From a distance, from the helicopter cameras, it looked like a -- really kind of a sophisticated weather balloon. But if you look up close here, it's -- it looks like aluminum foil. You can see Scotch tape holding it together. Here is a little -- here's a little duct tape. It looks like it's a -- a thin frame of thin wood here. If you come around, on the inside here, you can see some of these wires here. And, inside, we see three 9-volt batteries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: How a little kid would have sat in that balloon, I have no idea.
Nine-volt batteries, some tape, and a tale the police just do not believe.
We want to bring back our legal analysts, Jeffrey Toobin and Lisa Bloom.
Before we got -- go back you to guys, I just want to show you kind of an undiscovered moment that actually wasn't aired from the Heene interview, when Wolf Blitzer is saying hello to them before the interview began.
Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
R. HEENE: There is Wolf.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.
BLITZER: Hi, guys.
F. HEENE: Who the hell is Wolf?
BLITZER: That's me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Oh, Falcon, Falcon Heene. That was Falcon Heene saying, "Who is the hell is Wolf?"
BLOOM: Not a fan.
COOPER: I'm going to play that for years, by the way.
BLOOM: Falcon doesn't know the Wolf. There's something very...
BLOOM: ... in that.
So, seriously, though, what kind of charges could they face?
BLOOM: Well, they face, as you say, potentially felony charges. I agree with Jeffrey, though, that I -- it would be very unlikely they're going to serve any time behind bars. This is a misdemeanor.
What the sheriff apparently is looking for -- and I think the sheriff is taking this a little personally, by the way -- is restitution, paying the money back.
But these guys apparently don't have two nickels to rub together, so I don't know how he's going to the restitution. Ultimately, it could ordered. Maybe the wages could be garnished of Richard Heene, but that's about it.
COOPER: Well, it's also not clear at this point what his real source of employment is. I -- Dan Simon saying he is known for doing some...
BLOOM: Tile work.
COOPER: ... construction work.
BLOOM: Tile work.
TOOBIN: When -- when you don't know how someone supports themselves, they usually don't.
TOOBIN: I mean, there is usually not some secret pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I think restitution is a reasonable order to give here. But, you know, we -- it is a bad thing that he did, but, you know, it is important to keep in mind that, you know, no one was hurt. He doesn't appear to have taken any money as a result of it.
COOPER: It is sort of...
TOOBIN: But it was a -- it was a career-building, apparently, endeavor that didn't work. But, I mean, you know, I think it's important to keep in perspective.
COOPER: In the history of reality TV -- and, oh, what a history it's been...
COOPER: ... I mean, this is sort of the perfect -- I don't know -- I don't know if it's a tipping point, but this is the -- sort of the perfect culmination of years of people obsessing about being on a reality TV show, to actually have somebody kind of go to this extent. BLOOM: Well, look at octomom. I mean, she wanted to get a reality show. She only got a British company, ultimately, to do it.
COOPER: Do you think these people can actually get a -- a reality TV show?
TOOBIN: Well, that's the scary thought now...
BLOOM: Absolutely. I do.
COOPER: You actually think they can?
BLOOM: But probably outside the U.S.
TOOBIN: They're a heck of a lot -- they're a heck of a lot more famous now than they were at the beginning.
BLOOM: That's right.
COOPER: Right. But the level of public anger and outrage that people wasted two hours of their lives watching this ridiculous stuff on television and worrying about this kid...
TOOBIN: But look -- think how much -- think how much hatred was -- was projected on to the octomom.
COOPER: Yes, but she has -- she has had some show...
BLOOM: She got a deal with a British company now for a reality show.
TOOBIN: But she -- but she made some money.
BLOOM: And she has made a lot of money. The only way she's made money since the children have been born is by selling stories and selling pictures.
TOOBIN: I mean, I -- I have enough of low faith in the American people...
BLOOM: That's right.
TOOBIN: ... and in the broad -- and in the broadcast industry that -- that I think there will be a small deal somewhere for the -- for these folks...
TOOBIN: ... for the balloon family.
COOPER: I don't believe they will get a deal.
TOOBIN: You think nothing?
COOPER: I don't believe so.
TOOBIN: See, I -- I have gotten in trouble for not being cynical enough. Now...
BLOOM: You know, and, by the way, I also think, we who make a living on television have to be a little careful about criticizing people who want to be on television.
I mean, this is a family -- I don't agree...
COOPER: I don't know what you're talking about.
BLOOM: You know, we're always saying, oh, these people, they want to be on TV. How low can you go?
TOOBIN: Well, and, also, the criticism...
BLOOM: These are ordinary folks who wanted to get a reality show. They made a terrible mistake.
COOPER: We who in work TV know how low it can go.
TOOBIN: Well, but also the criticism of them for putting their children out for interviews -- you know, we begged them for interviews.
BLOOM: That's right. That's right.
TOOBIN: We tried very hard to...
BLOOM: That's right.
COOPER: Well, I did think it was amusing, though, during the "LARRY KING" interview when the guy -- when Richard Heene says, like, we weren't even going to do this interview. We thought, if we did this interview, we would not have to do any other interviews.
COOPER: And, then, as Erica pointed out the other day, you turn on the TV Friday morning...
TOOBIN: They were on the next...
COOPER: ... they're on every morning show.
BLOOM: Yes, but wait a second. These are unsophisticated people who are not familiar with morning show bookers.
COOPER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
TOOBIN: I'm not sure.
BLOOM: Yes, they are.
BLOOM: They have been on "Wife Swap." That doesn't make them sophisticated.
COOPER: They have been on "Wife Swap" twice.
BLOOM: But they have never been on a morning show before. They have never been on "LARRY KING" or CNN before.
TOOBIN: You don't have to be that sophisticated to say no...
TOOBIN: ... you know, to say, I don't want -- I don't want...
BLOOM: But why should they say no? I mean, this is their moment.
COOPER: And I can tell you....
TOOBIN: Why should they say no? Because he apparently was committing a crime here. Why would he go on TV and then broadcast it to everywhere?
BLOOM: Well, that's a different -- that's a different story.
By the way, where is the arrest of these people? We have the sheriff going out making a big statement. Nobody's been arrested yet.
COOPER: Well, now, it's interesting. Their attorney has come forward and said, it would be the lowest point of low -- you know, it would be lower than low to arrest these people in public.
BLOOM: Right, to do the -- have them do the perp walk.
COOPER: Does that make sense to you?
TOOBIN: Well, I -- you know, if you have people who are not going anywhere, who are not a risk of flight, it is customary for the police to call their lawyers and say surrender at such and such a time.
Now, the police don't have to do that. But if the lawyer volunteers to surrender the -- his clients, or whoever may be arrested -- and, by the way, it's not at all clear that the wife is also involved in this. I don't know if...
BLOOM: Well, she's the one who called 911.
TOOBIN: Well, but, I mean, I...
BLOOM: And she was there on the video setting the whole thing up.
TOOBIN: But it's not a -- it's not a crime to call 911.
I mean, you don't know whether...
BLOOM: Well, if she's participating in making a false report...
TOOBIN: Well, if she is. I mean, we don't know.
But I want to say is that the sheriff, I think, has taken this a little bit personally. He's gotten out in front of the story now, before the arrest has been made. He lied to all of us on Friday, which he now admits. And he says he did it to get the family's cooperation.
Jeffrey apparently even believed it on Friday, when the sheriff said...
TOOBIN: But he will believe anything.
BLOOM: ... hey, these are great people.
So, I just think we have to keep in mind these are...
COOPER: Jeff "Rube" Toobin.
BLOOM: ... these are regular folks with no money who apparently did something stupid. And the sheriff and media are all over them. And I would like to see the facts.
COOPER: We will -- we will see what happens. Lisa Bloom...
TOOBIN: Get to the bottom of it.
COOPER: ... appreciate it.
COOPER: Jeff "Rube" Toobin, appreciate it.
TOOBIN: That's me.
COOPER: Up ahead tonight: no hoax, no joke, swine flu -- the CDC said they would have 40 million doses of the vaccine available by the end of October. Then they said there would be only 28 million. So, where is all the vaccine? And why are there only just about 11 million doses right now? Tonight, the delay, the concerns, and what you need to know to keep your kids safe.
We will be taking your questions. You can go to AC360.com to get your answered by a doctor who will be joining us shortly.
And, later, women in the workplace, soon, they will be outnumbering men. We will have the groundbreaking impact and reaction from Suze Orman, Arianna Huffington, and Faye Wattleton. We will be right back.
COOPER: Just ahead: a big shift in strategy in the pot wars, the Justice Department's new policy for medical marijuana users.
First, some of the other important stories we're following.
Erica Hill has a 360 news and business update -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a college football player stabbed to death, that death now ruled a homicide. The medical examiner said today Jasper Howard died of a stab wound to the abdomen. The UConn cornerback was injured when a fight broke after a student dance on Saturday night. Police say they do not believe it was a random act.
A 360 follow -- prosecutors clearing a Chicago teenager of a first-degree murder charge in the beating death of a 16-year-old honor student, Derrion Albert. Eighteen-year-old Eugene Bailey was released from custody. Three other teens are still facing charges. That beating, of course, was videotaped. It led President Obama to send two top Cabinet members to Chicago to address the ongoing violence. And another hoax by the Yes Men. If you don't know them, it's a group of activists known for posing as corporate execs. And, this time, they pretended to be the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, sent out a fake press release announcing a dramatic shift in the business lobby's position on climate change, even hosted a fake news conference at the National Press Club.
Well, the whole thing came to a head in front of a room full of reporters. Now, we should point out CNN was not there. This handout video shows what happened when a real chamber official confronted the impostor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are you...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you have any questions, you are welcome to direct them to me with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are you really, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you have a business card? Are you with the U.S. Chamber?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- I do. We can discuss afterwards.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I see your business card?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I see yours?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you here representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well, I work there, and do you not look familiar to me at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could I see your business card?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And there you have it.
All right, still ahead: women in the workplace no longer a minority, soon, a majority -- a major shift that's affecting virtually every family. We will dig deeper on what it means for all of us with our panel, Suze Orman, Arianna Huffington, and Faye Wattleton, just ahead.
Later: answers to your question about swine flu and the H1N1 vaccine. We will have a doctor on hand to separate fact from fiction.
Send your questions by going to our Web site, AC360.com. Twitter us @andersoncooper or go to Facebook/AndersonCooper360.
COOPER: Tonight, we're taking a close look at women, work and a milestone.
By the end of this year, for the first time, more than half of American workers will be women. Forty years ago, they made up just a third of all workers. And that shift from minority to majority is transforming more than the workplace.
It is the focus of a special issue of "TIME" magazine, "The State of the American Woman"
"TIME" teamed up with the Rockefeller Center to find out how women and men are reacting to their changing roles at work and at home. As "TIME" puts it, women's buying power has never been greater and their choices have never harder.
Last February, first lady Michelle Obama put it this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: This issue is something that I have dealt with my whole life, trying to figure out how to juggle work- family balance, in the process of getting an education. There isn't a day that goes by, particularly after having kids, that I don't wonder or worry about whether I'm doing the right thing for myself, for my family, for my girls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, the struggle that Michelle Obama describes is not likely to go away. But when it comes to how society views working mothers and working women without kids, there have been some important shifts.
"TIME" isn't the only one looking at this. The Center for American Progress has issued is the Shriver Report, which examines the same issues.
Erica Hill joins us now -- Erica.
HILL: Well, Anderson, as you pointed out, women are increasingly an important part of the U.S. work force, a reality many American families are living firsthand.
Forty percent of women, it turns out, are now the primary earner in their home. And here's one indication why. Three-quarters of jobs lost since the recession began nearly two years ago were held by men. In a lot of families, more women had to go back to work.
Good news for many of those families, though, 89 percent of men and women in this "TIME"/Rockefeller Foundation poll say they're comfortable with the notion of a woman earning more. It's interesting, though, when you start to break things down a little bit, though, why -- the jobs that women actually hold today. The Shriver Report seems to suggest not much has changed for women since they started entering the work force when you look at those jobs.
Among the top jobs for women in 2008, secretary or administrative assistant, nurse, and teacher ranking in the top three, those positions, of course, traditionally held by women really since they first entered the work force, and even since more women began receiving college degrees.
Now, we should point out here, as does the study, women are branching out. Despite, though, now making up half of the work force, the Shriver Report found many industries continue to be highly segregated, Anderson, based on sex.
COOPER: You talk about the growing acceptance. But, if you dig deeper, Erica, there is still unease over women in the work force in some areas.
HILL: There is some. And it's really fascinating, when you break it down further -- the responses, frankly, a bit more telling.
Less than a third of children these days grow up with a stay-at- home parent. And many believe this has had a negative effect on society, about 65 percent. Of course, most families, though, need two incomes these days.
When asked, though, who should stay home, if that is an option, the majority of respondents were clear. Even though they're OK with women working, they contribute well to society in that role, if one parent can stay home, it should be mom, respondents said. Dad should be the one out there working.
Well, you know, "TIME" also found in poll after poll that women were more anxious than men about their family's financial security. In 2008, women's earnings fell 2 percent, twice as much as men's.
Let's dig deeper now with personal finance expert Suze Orman; also, Arianna Huffington, editor in chief of the Huffington Post, and Faye Wattleton, president and co-founder of the Center for the Advancement of Women.
Suze, 89 percent of both men and women said that they were comfortable with women earning more than men. You take issue with that finding, though.
SUZE ORMAN, PERSONAL FINANCE EXPERT: Yes, I don't believe it. I think men very often will say, "It's fine. No problem. I don't care if my wife earns more than me." I talk to them personally. And when you really talk to them, Anderson, they do have a problem with it. But they don't like to admit it. Women, if you ask them, would rather earn less than their husbands so their husband would feel better. Men, if you ask them, would really want to earn more than their wife, but if their wife happens to be earning more, they say, "OK." But deep down inside, I do not believe they feel it's OK.
COOPER: Arianna, it's interesting. Forty percent of women are the primary breadwinner in the homes. But women still earn 78 cents on the dollar compared to men. I mean, how far, really, have women come?
ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, EDITOR IN CHIEF, HUFFINGTON POST: Well, obviously we've come a long way, Anderson. But I think Suze is right. There are many sort of psychological responses that men have had through thousands of years of evolution. And it's really hard to change them.
And that's why there is a result, a lot of the stress put on women, is because they have to do everything they're doing and at the same way -- at the same time do it in a way this is less threatening so that Dasmala Toma (ph) said all those years ago, "For a man to be called ruthless, you have to be Joe McCarthy. For a woman to be called ruthless, you have to put somebody on hold."
So there are still these different expectations about how women behave in the workplace, how women behave as bosses. And the guilt throughout of the juggling act that Michelle Obama talks about is enormous, especially when you become a mother.
COOPER: It's also, Faye, for African-American women, there is a longer history of being the breadwinner outside in the workforce.
FAYE WATTLETON, CENTER FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF WOMEN: That's correct. Because our history is replete with family disruption in this current -- in the current time of the 21st century. Many African-American men are incarcerated. And so African-American women do carry an enormous burden. And traditionally have carried a greater burden than perhaps their white counterparts.
We were the ones who were working as domestics before this tremendous invasion into the workplace of all women. So it is -- it has been a long tradition of carrying the burden of the family alone.
COOPER: Suze, men have lost the majority of jobs since the recession began. Are women easier to employ because companies can pay them less?
ORMAN: I personally think that's the truth, Anderson. Think about it. Women have a very hard time going in and asking for a raise. You know, a study that was done said when women go to ask for a raise, it's almost as if it's like going to a dentist. They can't stand it. When a man goes to ask for a raise, he considers it going to battle, like going to war. And he enjoys it.
So I think a lot of men were let go because they were higher paid. Women are in there, they make less money, and they demand less, and therefore, corporations make more.
COOPER: Do you buy that, Faye?
WATTLETON: Yes, I would agree with that. Other studies have shown that women do not value the work that they contribute in the workplace, that they do not themselves place the same value on their work and their contribution that men place on theirs. So that, therefore, they are somewhat timid about asking for more compensation.
And this old pattern of whether a woman needs a certain level of compensation is still very much with us. We don't break these patterns very easily. And very often it is considered, "Well, she's a second breadwinner, so we don't have to pay her."
But we know that the gap in wages opens right after college. Women are going to college in unprecedented numbers. But the wage gap opens right after college, and it doesn't close throughout the career lifetime of a woman.
COOPER: Arianna, that term battle of the sexes used to be such a common term. You sort of hear it a lot on television. Is the notion that a woman's rise somehow comes at a men's expense a thing of the past?
HUFFINGTON: I don't think so. And unfortunately, Anderson, what we see is in hard economic times like right now, when so many couples have to make very hard choices, we see an increase in domestic violence. And we see an increase in, even when there's no violence, in major tensions between the couples.
So, no, these are issues that I'm very glad that we're discussing them. Because very often the polls do not tell us the truth. Because people always say what they think the pollster and the community want to hear.
COOPER: We're going to take a short break, and we're going to have more with Suze, Faye, and Arianna. Stay right there. We'll be back in just a moment with a new study on a related subject, bullying in the office. Are men the biggest adversaries for women at work? Got some surprising results ahead.
And taking the federal heat off of states where medical marijuana is legal. A big change coming up when we continue.
COOPER: We're talking about women's growing presence in the workplace. By the end of the year, women will make up more than half of American workers. That milestone doesn't mean that women have achieved equality in every profession or certainly even in play. But it does mean that more women work with and for other women than they used to.
We asked Tom Foreman to look at that angle on the story -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Anderson. You know, we posed a question on our blog: who hurts working women more, men or women? We'll get to the results in just a bit.
But first, look at this. Certainly about the Zogby polling organization for a group that works against bullying on the job. It found that, while men are more likely to be bullies, their victims are pretty well evenly divided between the sexes. But when women are bullies, they found that 71 percent of the time, the people they target are other women, interfering with promotions, spreading rumors and even humiliating them in front of co-workers, Anderson.
COOPER: I know some people fear this is basically just kind of a deep-seated stereotype. That people give that answer on the survey because that image of women has been reinforced a lot of times. Did blog readers, what did they have to say?
FOREMAN: You know, that's a very valid question, Anderson, and it's one we asked ourselves this morning, saying what would normal people out there say? We threw this out here, and the response was absolutely overwhelming.
Many people said they shared that concern, many women answering our blog. But then they said things like this, overwhelmingly, "I'd rather work for a man any time. Women are more 'backstabby' and catty." That is Melissa who said that.
If we look at what Joy had to say: "The glass ceiling may not have been created by women but sure is maintained by them."
And then if we look over here at what Heather said, "There are so few positions of leadership for women that I think women in those positions are afraid if they do mentor someone, that they could steal their job. Especially in this economy, it is every woman for herself."
We saw this over and over and over again, Anderson. There were a few people who said otherwise. But by and large, there were lots of women saying, "I don't want to say it. I don't want to admit it. I don't want it to be this way, but this is the reality" from their experience.
I'm dying to hear what your panel says about this, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. We should point out, Tom, obviously, blog posts are not in any way a scientific survey.
Let's dig deeper with our panel. Joining me again, Suze Orman, Arianna Huffington and Faye Wattleton.
Suze, what do you think of that?
ORMAN: Anderson, I was hoping you weren't going to come to me first. I have to say -- go to Arianna, and I'll just follow whatever she says. But in this particular case, I'm so sorry to say that I happen to agree...
ORMAN: ... with a lot of the polls in that, yes, I -- and I don't want to.
Insecure women can really back stab and be horrific to work with and work for. Secure women who know their own value actually are wonderful to work with, help lift other women. So it's just not women are like this. It's what kind of women. Insecure women, it's horrific to work for. Secure women will help others.
COOPER: Why do you think this is, to Arianna, why do you think this is like this? I mean, is it that -- that women believe there's only a certain number of slots for them and, therefore, competition is, you know, that they have to compete against another woman in order to get that predetermined slot?
HUFFINGTON: Yes. Absolutely. I think insecurity is the key. The sense of scarcity, that there are only so few jobs, and that you're competing another woman, that there are only so few men and you are competing another woman.
And at the same time, I want to stress that there are so many other examples of the opposite. I mean, the sense of solidarity among women, there's nothing better than that. The sense of belonging to a tribe that supports each other. I mean, that has been something that, throughout my life, I have treasured more than anything.
And I see that more and more. Maybe it's anecdotal. But there is no question that, as women become more secure, more established, it's going to change.
WATTLETON: Well, I think that it will change. But I think we sometimes blame the victim. And the kind of behavior that you have described probably has to do more with the nature of the workplace and the fact that, while women have entered the workplace in unprecedented numbers, we're not at the top of the food chain. We are not in the most powerful position.
And so the people who are most vulnerable are likely to turn not on the people who are more powerful, but those that are least vulnerable. And, you know, we don't have very many Fortune 500 CEOs. There are fewer women in those position this is year than there were last year.
WATTLETON: We have a very long way to go to really penetrate the power structure. Until that happens, you will not see stability among the workforce, among women -- in the workforce among women. And there is a certain likely to be that -- to continue.
COOPER: As women, though, have gained -- you look at a number of surveys, Suze, or Arianna, any of you, as women have gained more freedom, more economic power, they're actually less happy in surveys. Why do you that is? I mean, what do you make of that?
ORMAN: I think they feel guilty, I'm sorry to say. Go on. But -- I personally just think that they feel guilty.
Listen, just because women are making more money, and I've said this to you many times when I've on the show, they're still, in my opinion, not making more out of the money they make. They actually are using it to help others versus than to help themselves. So they aren't gaining their true economic power with the money they make.
And when you're truly powerful, that's when you're really happy. And women still aren't truly powerful over their money.
WATTLETON: The deal is that women have entered the workforce, but they have not been relieved of the domestic responsibilities. There has been the add on. Our research has demonstrated that women say that, "Yes, I am in the workforce, and I want to have a successful career. But I'm not relieved of the traditional role that I have in the home."
That's changing. But it hasn't changed in proportion to the demands outside the home.
HUFFINGTON: I think there is another reason, which is that women who are mothers or have to keep the household going and have a job have a much harder time bringing balance into their lives. And there's a sense of perpetual exhaustion. Sometimes there's nothing more important than getting some sleep. You know? That's the essential for me in bringing balance to your life. And I talk to more sleep-deprived friends among women than among men.
So that's part of what we need to change. And we need to be pioneers there. Because we need to sort of lead the way in terms of how to be successful without having a heart attack or an ulcer in your 50s.
COOPER: On this program, we don't recommend anyone sleep before midnight. So I'm going to have to edit that part out, Arianna.
But Arianna, I appreciate you being on. Suze Orman and Faye Wattleton, as well. Thank you very much. Good discussion.
Some raw data now, in keeping with this week's special series, "Latino in America." More new numbers from "TIME" magazine. Eighty- four percent of Latinos say more women in the workplace is positive for society. Thirty-seven percent of Latino women believe a woman can have a fulfilling life without marriage. Fifty-four percent of Latinos of both genders strongly agree that in households where both partners have jobs, women take on more responsibilities for the home and family than their male partners do.
And a quick reminder, you can catch "Latino in America" this week Wednesday and Thursday nights at 8 Eastern Time right here on CNN. Actually, it's 9 Eastern time on Wednesday night and 9 Eastern Time on Thursday night.
Tomorrow, my interview with Eva Longoria. She joins me to talk about "Latino in America," the groundbreaking special. She also tells us about the role of Latinos in Hollywood. That's tomorrow night on the program.
Next, the swine flu fears addressed. Where is the vaccine? How can you get it? Why are some hospitals turning people away? Please send us your questions on our Web site, AC360.com. Twitter us at AndersonCooper or go to Facebook/AndersonCooper360. The doctors here to answer them.
Also, legalizing marijuana. Not quite. But law enforcement will be more laid back when it comes to prosecuting some pot smokers. Details ahead.
COOPER: Two potentially scary facts tonight about the H1N1 swine flu. It's nearly everywhere, but the vaccine against it is not. And according to CDC, H1N1 is widespread in at least 41 states right now. Yet, due to production difficulties, the 41 million doses of vaccine expected this month have been trimmed down to about 28 million with only just over 11 million doses out there right now.
Hospitals preparing for possible traffic jams in the ICU. Some have barred children from visiting sick relatives to limit the H1N1 spread. And people have a lot of questions.
Here with some answers is internist Jorge Rodriguez.
Doctor, appreciate you being with us. Why is it taking the CDC longer to create the vaccine than planned? And where are the doses that are available already?
DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: Well, it's a good question, Anderson. The CDC isn't making the vaccine. It's being made by four different manufacturers. So basically, they're at the mercy of the manufacturers.
Eleven million vaccines have already been made. Six million have been distributed. And I think that this vaccine is becoming a little bit more finicky and difficult to make than first expected.
So we're expecting another 18 million vaccines. Actually CNN spoke with the CDC tonight. Another 18 million by the end of the month. They said that actually, those figures might have to be revised, because the production is not going as quickly as planned.
COOPER: We've got a question from AC360.com. Ashley wanted to know, "What are the side effects of the H1N1 vaccine? Are any of them fatal?"
RODRIGUEZ: Well, the -- first of all, this is a very safe vaccine, as safe as any other flu vaccine. The most common side effect is a localized inflammation in the area you got the vaccine, redness, a little bit of fever. If anybody has anything other than that, a life-threatening side effect could happen within the first 24 to 48 hours.
Again, none has been found in all the trials of this vaccine. But people need to be on the lookout for, example, paralysis or things that happen within a few days of getting the vaccine.
COOPER: We've got a Facebook question from Cathy. She wonders, "Why is the H1N1 nasal spray approved for people over 49?" She's 51.
RODRIGUEZ: Well, the nasal spray is an inactivated vaccine. It actually is a live virus that has been made a little bit impotent. It isn't recommended for people that are immune compromised. It isn't recommended for older people to have more of a suppressed immune system. I know I don't want to consider 51 old, but statistically, it is. So people that are over 51 need to be vaccinated, though.
COOPER: Another question from AC360.com. Laura wonders, "If the flu is peaking early this year (I have heard October versus February) will the vaccine even be of value by the time we can get the two required doses into our kids?"
And before you answer, I also want to show our viewers that what Laura is talking about, that first line -- let's put that graphic up. The first line is flu visits to doctors' offices from the last flu season. The second line is flu visits most recently. And look at the difference. We're already above peak levels that are normally seen in February.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes. That's a very dramatic graph. And if you notice, the visits are up six times what they are at this time of the year. I think where she's a little, maybe, misunderstanding, is that this may not be peaking now. That's our concern. That that line that you saw may just continue going.
So optimistically, yes, hopefully, it will peak within the next month. But I don't think so. So it isn't that it's peaking; it's just that it's revving up a lot earlier than usual.
COOPER: I appreciate you being on the program, Dr. Rodriguez. Thanks a lot.
You can get a state-by-state map of the flu activity on our Web site at AC360.com.
Coming up next, medical marijuana reversal. We'll tell you what the new pot policy means for your safety.
Also fighting back. An interracial couple denied a marriage license. We told you this story Friday. We led the broadcast with it. Denied a marriage license because of race. The justice of the peace is now speaking out for the first time. Hear how he defends what he did. Yes, that's right, he's still defending himself.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: All right. Let's get caught up on some of the other stories we're following. Erica Hill has the "360 Bulletin" -- Erica.
HILL: Anderson, a big shift. When it comes to pot, a new Justice Department memo says -- it tells federal prosecutors not to target people who use or distribute marijuana for medical use as long as they are in compliance with state laws.
The memo says agents have more important things to do. Those guidelines reverse a Bush administration crackdown. Currently, 14 states have some laws linked to medical marijuana.
A 360 follow, Beth and Terence McKay, the interracial Louisiana couple denied a marriage license from a justice of the peace, now have a lawyer. They said today they are in the process of making sure Keith Bardwell loses his job.
Bardwell, however, doesn't believe he's done anything wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH BARDWELL, JUSTICE OF THE PEACE: I have one problem with marrying mixed-race marriages, and that is the offspring. Absolutely not. My definition of the racists is to hate black people or treat black people different than anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And the Beverly Hills doctor who gave fertility treatments to the so-called Octomom, Nadya Suleman, has now been kicked out of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine. A spokesman for the group says Dr. Michael Kamrava violated standards. But this doesn't mean he isn't practicing. He can still practice, because his association, Anderson, with the group was voluntary.
COOPER: And he'll get his own reality show.
Time now for "The Shot," Erica. The question that absolutely nobody but nobody should have to ask, nobody over age 6, that is. Play that, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD HEENE, FATHER: There's Wolf.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.
FALCON HEENE, BALLOON BOY: Who the hell is Wolf?
R. HEENE: I told you not to cuss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Who the hell is Wolf?
HILL: I like the language, too.
COOPER: Oh, out of the mouths of babes.
HILL: And that -- that's tame from what we heard on YouTube, those kids. Whew! COOPER: There's only a certain amount of time one has to run with some clips that you have, you know, that some of our favorite clips like...
HILL: Use it while you got it.
COOPER: So I think this is probably the last time we can get away from showing this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
R. HEENE: I think that's what he was referring to.
That's what he was referring to when...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just keep going, Meredith. Keep going, Richard.
HILL: I want to point out that the sheriff said last night that...
I'd like to make a prediction. Anderson Cooper will find a way to work that back in.
COOPER: Do you think I will?
HILL: This is not the last time you see that clip.
COOPER: Maybe you're right, Erica Hill.
HILL: It's true.
COOPER: Darn you, you're good.
HILL: I'm the wise one.
COOPER: All right. Up next, you know what's even better about the show? We're going to have this in the next hour, as well.
Up next, both the serious and the absurd. Balloon boy, the sequel. An alleged hoax, possible felony charges and what may happen -- and what may happen to the three young boys now that Mom and Dad could be in a world of trouble. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Tonight, the hoax. That's what it smelled like on Thursday and Friday. That's what authorities are calling it tonight. The balloon family's 15 minutes of fame are over. The parents' day in court could be coming. Child welfare authorities are involved.