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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Roger Clemens Gives Testimony in Capitol Hill; Can Hillary Clinton Break Obama's Momentum?; Who Will Win the Democratic Nomination?; How Steroids and HGH Really Work
Aired February 13, 2008 - 2300 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, to tell the truth or not. Baseball's Roger Clemens, famous for bringing the heat, being grilled today for allegedly using the juice; his former trainer pointing the finger. The sleaze factor rising, we'll cover that and investigate the drugs involved; hormones that some believe can bring back your youth.
Also ahead tonight, Barack Obama on a major winning streak, but for how much longer? Hillary Clinton hit back today; she's been questioning his experience and substance. Today he answered in detail. We'll show you that.
We'll also explore what happens if neither candidate wins enough delegates to lock up the nomination. You've heard the term; it's called the brokered convention. We haven't seen one in generations. Tonight see how it could play out this time around.
We begin, though, tonight with the story much of America is talking about. It involves one of the greatest American athletes of all time; now in the middle of a huge drug scandal rocking professional sports.
This goes way beyond baseball. And it may all come down to a simple question. Who is telling the truth? The testimony today on Capitol Hill was riveting.
One of these men is lying to congress, to the cameras, to you. Which one, however? Is it superstar pitcher Roger Clemens on the right, accused of tainting the game, accused of taking performance-enhancing drugs, or the guy on the left, his former trainer, his former friend, Brian McNamee, who says he gave Clemens steroids and human growth hormone during his years in baseball.
Today, an emotional, at times angry, testimony. Each man attacked each other while insisting they were honest. And they did it sitting almost side by side. Listen to this.
ROGER CLEMENS, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER: I'm not saying Senator Mitchell's report is entirely wrong. I am saying Brian McNamee's statements about me are wrong. Let me be clear. I have never taken steroids or HGH.
BRIAN MCNAMEE, FORMER MLB STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH: When I told Senator Mitchell that I injected Roger Clemens with performance- enhancing drugs, I told the truth. I told the truth about steroids and human growth hormone. I injected those drugs into the body of Roger Clemens at his direction.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN, (D) OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It's impossible to believe that this is a simple misunderstanding. Someone isn't telling the truth.
COOPER: No doubt about it, someone's lying. CNN's Gary Tuchman was inside the house committee room during the testimony. Gary joins us now.
What was it like?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it was a really interesting day, no question about it.
Roger Clemens says his former trainer Brian McNamee is a liar but today he also said under oath that his close friend Andy Pettitte doesn't listen very well. And Clemens also declared his own wife was injected with human growth hormone by the very same trainer he is calling a liar.
What appeared to be most damaging to Clemens was the disclosure that former teammate Andy Pettitte declared under oath that in 1999 or 2000 Clemens admitted to him he used HGH. That would support McNamee's allegations.
When Clemens was asked if that was true, he said that Pettitte remains his good friend but "misheard" and "misremembered." Clemens wasn't happy when the oversight committee chairman summed up the Pettitte issue at the end of the hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAXMAN: Evidently Mr. Pettitte didn't believe what Mr. Clemens said in that 2005 conversation.
CLEMENS: Doesn't mean he was not mistaken, sir.
WAXMAN: Excuse me, but this is not your time to argue with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: For reasons that are still not clear, the hearing was largely partisan. Democrats were tougher on Clemens, Republicans were tougher on trainer McNamee, who is lambasted over and over again for lying over the years. McNamee testified he had saved syringes, needles and gauze pads he used on Clemens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you not give those to the Mitchell report committee immediately when you were contacted by them?
MCNAMEE: Because I felt horrible about being in the position I was in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to make sure I've got this straight. Your friend, Roger Clemens, you allegedly gave him these shots, you kept the pads and the needles for five years, and went on and kept working for him because he was your employer, and then you say you felt bad? You felt bad about proposing and giving these to the Mitchell committee when you first started talking to them?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gee wiz, are you kidding me?
COOPER: Gary, did you get a chance talk to Clemens after the hearings?
TUCHMAN: Clemens did give a brief statement to the reporters after the hearing but would not answer questions, including this one, why didn't he call a doctor after his wife developed circulation problems following the HGH injection from McNamee?
One suspicious that Clemens didn't call a doctor because he didn't want it to get out that he had also taken performance-enhancing drugs. I asked his lawyer about why no doctor call?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Were you surprised he didn't call a doctor after his wife got an injection? Why didn't he call a doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would he? Do you call the doctor every time you don't feel good? Give me a break. Would you know that? Have you taken HGH? Next question. You don't have to answer that. You don't have to answer that. Do you need a lawyer? There's one back here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's interesting, Gary, seeing his lawyers joking there. It's a lot different than what we saw in the hearing.
TUCHMAN: Yes, I will tell you, Anderson, that was about the only bit of humor I saw all day. It will be up to the Justice Department if perjury charges should be pursued against Roger Clemens or his former friend and trainer, Brian McNamee.
COOPER: Fascinating. Clemens and McNamee -- two witnesses, two very different stories to tell; the question again, who is lying?
Let's get to the evidence and the question of credibility. With us now is CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. What about this?
One of these guys could face perjury yes? Or both of them?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. When you have situations like two people telling opposite stories, the issue you always look to is corroboration. Whose story is supported by other evidence?
And I think that's where Clemens is in trouble because Pettitte, who was obviously his close friend, really does support McNamee is almost every detail. That is not proof, and in fact that's why I don't think there will ever be perjury charges coming out of, this because the matter is so old and so murky. But --
COOPER: And his wife, though, also gave an affidavit saying that Pettitte had told her at the time these same things, that he took HGH.
TOOBIN: In fairness to Clemens, it's a little unfair to have Pettitte and Pettitte's wife testify solely through affidavit without cross- examination. That's how we usually test things in a courtroom. This was really very much not a courtroom setting, but in terms of just sitting there, who do you believe? I think Clemens had a bad day today.
COOPER: What do you make of this paraphernalia, which is allegedly paraphernalia -- that really supported McNamee -- is paraphernalia that Clemens was using?
TOOBIN: Again, if it does show DNA of Clemens and some sort of steroids on it, it would be incriminating, but it wouldn't be proof.
COOPER: Why wouldn't he have given it to the Mitchell investigation? That's another thing I don't understand.
TOOBIN: Very mysterious.
COOPER: His reasoning there just didn't make sense to me.
TOOBIN: It didn't make sense. But again you're talking about a guy who was obviously very conflicted, who at one level looked up to Roger Clemens, at another level feared him. Someone might hang on to something that would be proof of something he might later be challenged on. It makes a certain amount of sense in a fairly nonsensical situation.
COOPER: So this was big on television today, all these politicians you get to see and asking tough questions on television. What, if anything, comes of all this?
TOOBIN: Not a great deal in all likelihood.
TOOBIN: Because it's bizarre. Why is the Congress of the United States deciding whether -- looking at the question of whether Roger Clemens took steroids? I mean, obviously, here we are talking about it, it's very interesting. Roger Clemens is a very famous person, but I doubt it's going to lead to any sort of legislation. That's really why Congress usually holds hearings.
I think pointing out that -- it's a remarkable thing. You have the best pitcher of the last 20 years, Roger Clemens, the best hitter of the last 20 years, Barry Bonds, both deeply implicated on steroids. That's a reminder to baseball that they need to clean up their act. It's a reminder to kids that they should stay out of trouble.
COOPER: But you're betting nothing's going to come out of this thing?
TOOBIN: I think this thing will go away as a legal matter. As a prosecutor you don't want to wade into this mess. And I don't think the Justice Department will.
COOPER: That's fascinating. Jeffrey Toobin, thanks.
Erica Hill joins us right here live in the New York City studio. Erica welcome, it's great to have you here.
You watched the testimony today. A lot of Americans did as well. We've been getting a lot e-mail from viewers saying, what is going on? Jeffrey just mentioned, is this really something that Congress should be investigating?
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's one of the big questions that's come up all day long, Anderson. So that's something we wanted to look into because it's a valid question.
There's a war, and recession on the horizon, and other pressing issues like immigration, education, government spending. These are on the top of the mind for many Americans. So why spend so much time looking at just what professional athletes might have done to gain an edge?
Representative John Duncan of Tennessee actually tackled that criticism right out of the gate this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., (R) TENNESSEE: I have heard some holier than thou types on television say that Congress has much more important things to deal with, and, you know, I'll say this. We all work on all these other important issues all the time. But a lot of them aren't as glamorous or high profile as this, and so we don't have some of the crowds that we have. But we're working on the other major issues, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: So there you go. They're still busy. But before the hearings began, two other members of the Oversight Committee actually weighed in with USA Today.
Representative Patrick McHenry of North Carolina telling the paper, quote, "It's another reason why people are fed up with Congress. We're facing huge challenges in housing, government spending, taxes and illegal immigration. Congress would be better served to focus on any of those issues instead of inserting it self-into a name-calling finger-pointing school-yard brawl.
Representative Betty McCollum of Minnesota said while she did feel it was appropriate for Congress to hold the hearing, she also felt her constituents would want her to work on something that has more of a direct impact on their lives, Anderson. A lot of those who are speaking out saying, "You know we weren't intending for it to become what it has become, this side show, in effect, with McNamee and Clemens. We just wanted to look into what was going on because Commissioner Seally had asked for this report and asked for a little help.
COOPER: You're just one of those "holier than thou" media types the Congressman was talking about.
HILL: Well, you know, we all have a role to play, Anderson Cooper.
And just a reminder, too. You can weigh in on this, what you think about congress, baseball, steroids. I put a little piece on the blog about it today. You can weigh in at cnn.com/360.
COOPER: We'll have a lot more from Erica throughout this hour.
It is remarkable how many people these days, famous and not so famous, young and old, are taking HGH. We're going talk with "360" M.D. Sanjay Gupta about how steroids and HGH, human growth hormone, actually work. And we're going to show you the celebrities who swear by the stuff.
COOPER: She wants to make 60 the new 40. He's ripped and always ready for another sequel. Hollywood stars and the hormones they're worshipping as a fountain of youth. But is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are serious side effects associated with these growth hormones.
COOPER: We'll show you the upside of human growth hormone and dark side.
Also tonight, the Obama sweep.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And tonight we're on our way.
But Hillary Clinton's betting the ranch on Texas. Will it be enough to stop the slide? Raw politics, tonight on "360."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLEMENS: These are the values that we have. That I have. And that I'll continue to have. Somebody's tried to break my spirit in this room. They're not going to break my spirit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, forceful and defiant; baseball star Roger Clemens testifying before a congressional committee. Clemens says he's never taken steroids or human growth hormone, period, in his entire life.
Scores of other athletes, including Barry Bonds, have also been connected to the drug probe. We don't know the final truth of who or who is not using, we do know that performance-enhancing drugs are more common in locker rooms across the country.
The question is why. Why do athletes, professionals, as well as kids in high school, turn to them. What are the risks? Joining us now with the facts is "360" M.D. Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
So Sanjay, bottom line, what do steroids and HGH do for athletes?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: First of all, they're two different substances. When you're talking about steroids, you're typically talking about anabolic steroids. And they can make you bigger, faster and stronger. Those are obviously desirable traits.
What that really is, Anderson, more than anything else is it allows people to recover faster from working out. So you're working out, you can work out much more quickly, lift more, because your muscles respond better. Steroid is just a derivative of testosterone.
Now with regards to HGH, human growth hormone, it's typically a synthetic substance; it is not really thought of as a performance- enhancing drug. The reason it's so popular is there's been studies that have shown is that it can decrease your body fat and increase your muscle mass fairly quickly. Again, desirable things.
It may make you a little bit stronger, but not nearly as much as anabolic steroids. It really sort of makes the muscles retain water so they get a little bit bigger.
COOPER: I heard with HGH, though, that everything kind of grows, including your heart. That's why some folks end up with enlarged hearts.
GUPTA: Yes, there's been a lot of studies on HGH, and there's concern about the effects on the heart. There's concern about effects on the joints as well. People get joint problems, people may even develop carpal tunnel. There's a concern about cancer.
A lot of people won't talk about that, Anderson, but as we investigated this, all those studies really about linking HGH to cancer have really only been done on animals. There haven't been any studies actually showing HGH causes cancer in human beings.
So, yes, it could cause heart and liver problems, but this stuff is hard to study, Anderson, because you'd have to give a bunch of people HGH and watch them for a while, and that's not something that we're prepared to do.
COOPER: What about steroids? What is the alleged danger there?
GUPTA: Well, you know, there's been a lot of people talking about the dangers of steroids. You remember Lyle Alzado, for example, the football player. He came out and said it caused his cancer. There was no medical evidence to back that up, but there is evidence to say that it can increase your blood pressure. It can increase the effect on your heart, possibly causing heart problems. Liver disease, liver cancer is a much more proven thing.
Go through the HGH, human growth hormone, dangers again as well, again, some the things like the arthritis problems, the joint problems, all those sorts of things can be caused by the HGH. They're different substances, but some of the risks that you're mentioning, Anderson, can have some overlap.
COOPER: Yes. OK. The other thing I have heard about steroids is it makes your bits and pieces smaller. Is that true?
GUPTA: I'm sorry. What was that again?
COOPER: Never mind.
GUPTA: Some parts smaller, some parts bigger; is that what you're saying?
COOPER: Yes. Is that true?
GUPTA: Yes. You know, it is.
Think about it like this, Anderson. With regards to steroids, basically, a man's testes basically produce hormones, testosterone. If you're giving the testosterone, the testes will say, look, we don't have to produce it anymore. We're getting it somewhere else. So, they will actually shrink. It's true.
And you get some of the other changes as well. The voice may change a bit. You may get some skin changes. These are characteristic things. And, you know, when we -- when we were investigating this, Anderson, and people in the locker room, they can tell. They can tell who's on the steroids and who's not by some of these things that you're mentioning.
COOPER: All right. Sanjay, thanks. Appreciate it, especially my last ridiculous question.
GUPTA: All right. Thank you.
COOPER: I appreciate you actually answering that.
It's interesting, Erica, but I got to tell you, I don't know what to make about this HGH. I know people who -- older people who swear by it. They say it makes them feel more youthful. They're...
HILL: Yes. They call it like a fountain of youth, don't they?
COOPER: Right. And then there's a lot of folks who says, look, this stuff is just dangerous, no doubt about it.
HILL: I don't know. I get scared by all those things.
HILL: But it was an interesting question, Anderson. Many people wanted it answered.
COOPER: That is -- the bits-and-pieces question?
HILL: Yes, exactly.
COOPER: Yes, I didn't really know how to phrase that.
We have got a lot more ahead. We are going to talk more about HGH. We're going to show you some of the celebrities who swear by this stuff.
But, first, let's get us up to date with a 360 bulletin. Erica.
HILL: All right, Anderson, the Senate Ethics Committee says Idaho Senator Larry Craig acted improperly when he tried to withdraw a guilty plea after his bathroom sex sting bust. Now, the panel issued a letter of admonishment, but took no further action.
Defense Secretary Gates sporting a sling in a Pentagon meeting this morning. That's because he slipped on the ice last night and broke his arm.
And get ready for some funnier jokes, sharper questions, snappier dialogue, and a little peace on Earth, all the good stuff -- that written by our non-union writer, who is also happy to write that some of his WGA brothers and sisters are already back on the job, Anderson.
COOPER: None too soon. I was worried about my "30 Rock." I was worried about my "Law & Order: SVU" -- or SUV, or SVU. I always get that confused.
HILL: I always mess that up, too. I was worried about my "Dirty Sexy Money."
COOPER: Oh, see, I have never watched that show.
HILL: Oh, it's fantastic.
HILL: And "Lost." It just started.
COOPER: Oh, I gave up on -- I gave up on "Lost" so long ago, yes.
HILL: I have the DVDs. You can borrow them. It's worth it.
COOPER: I can't invest a year of my life that it would require me to get back involved.
Erica, stay right there.
A man is dumped on a jailhouse floor. You're not going to believe this video. This guy was in a wheelchair. He's a paraplegic. We have the video there. An officer just dumps him on the floor. What was this -- was this person thinking? That is next.
And, later, Barack Obama wins eight in a row. Can Hillary Clinton stop him?" The "Raw Politics" from the campaign trail, all the latest on the politics -- when 360 continues.
COOPER: All right, Erica, time for "What Were They Thinking?"
I know you're here in New York, but we like doing the split- screen thing, even though you're here.
HILL: That's fine, yes.
A lot of people are asking that question after watching this shocking video from the Hillsborough County, Florida jail. Take a look at this - a paraplegic man in a wheelchair dumped on to the ground.
COOPER: ... after he told a female deputy he couldn't stand up. She did not buy it. She wasn't having it. She tosses the guy on the ground.
COOPER: Brian Sterner suspects he may have broken ribs from this incident about two weeks ago, when he was brought in on a traffic warrant. The female deputy has been suspended, along with three supervisors who saw the incident and just stood around and did nothing.
HILL: That blows my mind.
HILL: Yes, really, buddy? You can't stand? Uh-huh. Prove it.
HILL: And over? Ridiculous.
COOPER: Not good.
HILL: Well, you might also ask what were they thinking about a cop in Baltimore. Take a look at this meltdown caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALVATORE RIVIERI, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Where you from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
RIVIERI: Give me that skateboard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
RIVIERI: Sit down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the hell?
RIVIERI: Sit down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude...
RIVIERI: Sit down! I'm not a dude.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm calling my mom.
RIVIERI: You're damn right you're calling your mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Oh, yes.
COOPER: What is that guy thinking?
HILL: Yes, definitely calling his mother.
Officer Salvatore Rivieri has now been suspended with pay, pending an investigation of the incident. It happened last summer, but a spokesman for the police department says there -- quote -- "was a level of courtesy for us that we hope all officers will use that just wasn't there."
The mayor, by the way, very disappointed.
COOPER: Well, also, that was like a little kid who was just standing around with a skateboard.
COOPER: It's not as if it was like a burglar, you know.
HILL: No, not so much. There you go. Don't skateboard, though, or else.
COOPER: That's right. Officer Salvatore is going to get you.
A reminder - I am trying to live blog during the program. It's been a little busy tonight. I haven't been able to. But I will. Check it out at cnn.com/360.
Maybe Erica will jump in on the live blogging as well. Have you been live blogging?
HILL: No, but thanks for...
COOPER: Oh, come on, Erica.
HILL: Thanks for throwing me under the bus, my friend.
COOPER: Good lord.
COOPER: Up next - politics. And there's a lot to talk about tonight. CNN's John King is here to map out who won where last night and where the candidates need to win in the coming days.
And it is eight in a row for Senator Obama. There's no question he has got momentum. Can he be stopped? We will take you on the trail, show you the candidate who is trying to stop him -- when 360 continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I was born, there were big chunks of the South where I couldn't eat in a restaurant, couldn't stay in a hotel, and had to sit in the back of the bus. I had to go to a segregated school.
So -- and here I am, one of three people who might end up president of the United States of America.
OBAMA: So, that's progress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Barack Obama coming off three big wins in Maryland, D.C. and, of course, Virginia last night. He is out in front, no doubt about it, for the first time in two national polls.
But, no doubt about it, he's facing tough challenges in Ohio, in Pennsylvania, in Texas, where Hillary Clinton is planning an Alamo- like last stand, some have said.
He's doing quite well, however, leading up to the next big contest in Wisconsin next week.
Now, today, Senator Clinton rolled out a hard-hitting campaign ad there, and Senator Obama fired right back.
The "Raw Politics" tonight from CNN's Candy Crowley.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She is under the gun, but he bears the burden of great expectations. So, he looks for a ninth win in Wisconsin.
OBAMA: I'm looking forward to a great debate on the issues with John McCain. CROWLEY: And she looks for traction in Texas.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to congratulate Senator Obama on his recent victories and tell him to meet me in Texas. We are ready.
CROWLEY: There is an intensity now; you can feel it. The delegate pool is shrinking. Time is running short, and the pressure is on; him to keep winning, her to stop losing.
On the trail today, both candidates talked home-and-hearth issues, economic fairness, and each other's fitness to do something about it.
OBAMA: Good to see you. Nice job.
CROWLEY: Touring a GM assembly plant, Obama tried to cut into Clinton's support among working-class moderate-income whites, hitting her in places that resonate in living rooms, her early support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, her support for a bankruptcy bill seen by some as pro-big business, her support for the war.
OBAMA: John McCain and Hillary Clinton voted for a war in Iraq that should have never been authorized and should have never been waged, a war that is costing us thousands of precious lives and billions of dollars a week that could have been used to rebuild crumbling schools and bridges, roads and buildings. They could have been invested in job training and child care.
CROWLEY: With faithful support from Latino voters she counts on to help deliver delegate-rich Texas, Clinton worked the border towns with a tried-and-true theme.
CLINTON: I have solutions to these economic challenges. The question today is, does Senator Obama? Because...
CLINTON: ... a plan that fails to provide universal health care, fails to address the housing crisis, and fails to immediately start creating good-paying jobs in America again will not turn the economy around and provide the real relief that our people need. We need real results, not more rhetoric.
CROWLEY: They are pointed barbs, but not over the top, and nothing compared to Obama's blistering assault on John McCain and the Bush tax cuts.
OBAMA: McCain actually showed some courage when he said, "You know what? This is irresponsible." He said, "I can't support a tax cut with" -- and I quote -- "so many of the benefits going to the most fortunate."
But, somewhere along the line, he traded those principles for the Republican nomination, because now he says he's for those tax cuts.
CROWLEY: A taste of the fall campaign, a la Barack Obama. (on camera): Of course, he will have to get through this winter and this spring first, and that begins Tuesday in Wisconsin, and may not end, if it ends, until Pennsylvania in late April.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Racine, Wisconsin.
COOPER: Well, the Obama camp wants to focus on the arithmetic that they say will leave Senator Obama out in front.
But out in front does not necessarily add up to victory. Neither candidate may win enough delegates for that.
Joining us now with all the math and the board, wherever it leads, CNN's John King. John.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's a great question, Anderson. Where does it lead?
This is where we are. This is where we begin the night. And look at this. Senator Obama did pass Senator Clinton last night. He is ahead, but, boy, he's ahead by just a tiny bit. And, so, what happens? Where do we go from here? That is the great question.
Let's say that we give Senator Obama -- he expects to win in Wisconsin. He expects to win in Hawaii. We're giving him these races 55-45. We could -- if he wins a little more, he gets a little more of the delegates. But, if he ends up right there, then what happens?
Senator Clinton has the fire wall here in Ohio and Texas. We give her those states, she -- Obama still ahead, but it's still roughly even.
And the question is, what happens from there? You could play this out any number of ways. Play it out with Senator Clinton winning some states to the end.
Give Senator Obama a couple of states as we go closer to the end, and you get the scenario, Anderson, where they're racing and racing, and, even when you're all done, and all the states are done -- Rhode Island's hard to get sometimes, because it's so small -- you could have one of the candidates look something like this.
Or we could go to a scenario like this. Let's assume Senator Obama, who comes in with all this momentum, all -- he's just won eight in a row -- let's assume he keeps his momentum and he sweeps the board. Well, if he sweeps the board, getting about 60 percent of the vote to 40 percent for Senator Clinton? Guess what? Senator Obama still comes up short.
He would be well enough ahead perhaps to influence the super delegates. Or let's even say he had a bigger wallop. He would keep coming through at 70 percent of the vote, Anderson, the rest of the way out, to 30 percent for Senator Clinton. Obama still comes up just short. And, if we flip this math around, and had Senator Clinton winning either by 60-40 or 70-30, you would have a very similar number. Somebody would come up just short. It is very hard, absent blowouts, in the 80-percent-to-20-percent range. And we just simply haven't seen that before, so why would we see it down the road for that to happen?
So, it is possible you will get something like this, one of the candidates close to the finish line, but not across it. The Democratic Party has to decide then whether they revisit Michigan and Florida, or, Anderson, the scenario we have been talking about and talking about and will be talked about for quite some time.
Will the super delegates make the final decision at the end? The expectation in the party, Anderson, is, if somebody gets a lead of this size, somebody gets a lead of 100 delegates, a couple hundred delegates or so, at that point, the super delegates would have to go with the winner.
But we are in the land of the hypothetical, until we see if Obama can continue the momentum, or if Senator Clinton, starting down here in Texas and in Ohio, can stop it.
COOPER: A couple ways it could go. John thanks for watching it.
If you thought the last debate between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama was important, well, our next one will be even more so.
Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama go head to head, face to face next Thursday night in a debate from Austin, Texas. You can watch it live on CNN starting at 8 p.m. Eastern.
Erica, have they picked a moderator for this thing yet?
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: You know, I think it's still up in the air. Are you available? Maybe throw your hat in the ring.
COOPER: I don't know who's doing it. It's all up in the air.
HILL: You'll find out Wednesday night you need to be on a plane.
COOPER: Exactly. We'll be there no matter what covering it all.
Up next, the best political team on television weighs in on what the candidates are facing in the days ahead.
And here's tonight's "Beat 360." That's right, cue the cheesy music. Senator Clinton being shown a transmission during a campaign stop at a GM plant in Maryland. Here's the caption from our staff winner, Marshall - "You really do sweat the details. So will you drive it home tonight?"
I don't quite get that one. I don't -- yes. Erica doesn't get it, either.
Think you can do better? Go to cnn.com -- I'm sorry, Marshall. Go to cnn.com/360. Send us your submission. We're going to announce the winner at the end of the program within about 30 minutes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I congratulate both Senator Obama and Senator Clinton for the campaigns they've run. They've gotten voters engaged. We will do that, as well.
And we do have a lot of work to do. We all agree with that. And that -- with that challenge and facing that challenge is the first step in the right direction toward victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Senator John McCain hasn't yet said the race for the Republican nomination is over, even though pretty much everyone agrees he's the presumptive nominee. As for the Democrats; way too early to presume anything. The last 24 hours, however, have definitely dialed up the drama.
Let's talk about it with Joe Johns, also political analyst Amy Holmes and political consultant Hank Sheinkopf, who worked on Bill Clinton's reelection campaign in 1996.
Joe, Obama now has more delegates than Senator Clinton, as John King was just showing us, although not by a wide margin at this point. This race, I mean, it's too close to call.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It certainly is. And the interesting thing about these candidates is momentum doesn't suit either of them very well. If you look back at what happened...
COOPER: But I mean, the more people see of Barack Obama, it seems like he is cutting into...
COOPER: ... groups she had traditionally held.
JOHNS: Right. He's cutting into Hispanics. He's cutting into women. He's cutting into lower-income people. So all of those things are things that Hillary Clinton has to shore up as she goes forward.
But it's very possible that she'll do well, better, perhaps, even, as an underdog.
And you have to also look at the states that we're dealing with - D.C., Virginia, Maryland; very, very different from Texas, from Pennsylvania, from Ohio. So you've got a completely different set of demographics.
COOPER: Hank -- Hank Sheinkopf, how does she go about breaking that momentum in Texas, in Ohio?
HANK SHEINKOPF, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: Not going to be easy. Voters tend to follow public opinion. And some of the politicians follow public opinion.
She's going to have to work very hard and individualize the argument. The less she's in large crowds, the more she's personalized it, the more you get to know her individually, the better off she's going to be.
Is it going to be easy? She needs to win Ohio, and she needs to win Texas. And she's got to win Pennsylvania. It's that simple. If not, this could be over.
COOPER: James Carville, who's a supporter of -- besides being a Democratic strategist, a supporter of Senator Clinton, said that if she doesn't win Texas and Ohio, she's done.
AMY HOLMES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: He says she has to win those states. And it seems like her campaign is saying that, too.
But I agree with Hank. When we saw Hillary able to stop the Obama momentum was between Iowa and New Hampshire. And what did she's do? Everyone's talking about that crying moment, but it did humanize her. And she was able then to really be able to inspire those female voters, who she needs to get back from Barack Obama.
I think as Hank is saying, she needs to be intimate; she needs to be the underdog. She needs to ask the voters to help her. She needs to reach out and say, you know, "I'm asking for you to join this campaign." No more of these lectures and stump speeches like she did last night. And she needs to show a more humble side to her, and I think that will succeed.
COOPER: Even if Barack Obama sweeps every state from now up until the convention, he still won't have enough delegates to put him over the top. It's still too close to Senator Clinton.
So at some point, does she -- if that actually happens, does she drop out? Or do you think this thing goes all the way to the convention and the super delegate battle?
SHEINKOPF: The Democrats have a lot at stake here. Frankly, if it appears that Barack Obama is the real nominee who's been voted on by the people in these states, in these primaries and in these caucuses. And super delegates or anybody else shows up to steal that from him, there will be an explosion within the Democratic Party that will probably make John McCain the president of the United States.
Republicans will go back to being what they were, which is the party of Lincoln, as opposed to the party of Reagan, and it will be a tough day.
HOLMES: And Anderson, think about all of those young voters who have been so motivated by Barack Obama. If they were to see that this victory was snatched from them because of political maneuvering and super delegates and behind-the-scenes works, they could be turned off to politics, to the Democratic Party for a generation. It's going to be devastating. COOPER: But the options, Joe, are basically it goes to a convention, becomes a brokered convention, goes to the super delegates. Or Michigan and Florida are put back in play before that. Or is there a third option?
JOHNS: Well, certainly Michigan and Florida will have to be decided at some point. There are a lot of people out there who are very concerned about this thing, particularly the Florida situation, because Democrats yelled and screamed about being disenfranchised in 2000 with Bush v. Gore.
Now come the Democrats having the same type of problem in the very same state. It could be very disconcerting for them. You're talking about a lot of voters.
Democrats don't want that to happen. They want to figure this thing out before then. Maybe you have the super delegates already committed or whatever. But then people are going to have to accept that, and that's the other question.
HOLMES: I can tell you, Joe, if it does come down to Florida and that very dilemma, Republicans will be sitting back watching with a bag of popcorn.
COOPER: Where are the independents in all this, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: Very important to watch them. They are breaking, where they can vote -- where they can vote for Barack Obama, not for John McCain. That's bad news for McCain, come the fall. This is very serious.
COOPER: We're going to have more with that panel ahead.
A programming note - Friday night at 10 p.m. Eastern, we're going to take an in-depth look at race, gender and politics, how those issues are playing out in this campaign. A provocative 360 special you won't want to miss. Friday night.
Also, next tonight, a brokered convention we were just talking about with Joe and Hank a little bit and Amy, could happen for the Democrats. We'll tell you what it means and how the Dems hope to avoid it.
Also ahead tonight, it's not just pro athletes. Hollywood celebrities and others are fighting aging with the syringe. We're talking about HGH and other stuff. At what cost, however? An up-close look at human growth hormone. That is ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I just think when you look at the contrasts here, you know, it's a difference between promises and solutions. It's a difference between questions and answers. And I feel very comfortable.
You know, I have challenged him to debates. I think the people of Wisconsin deserve to hear from both of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was Senator Hillary Clinton, of course, campaigning today in Texas, where she hopes to put the brakes on Barack Obama's winning streak.
Senator Obama is now ahead in the delegate count, as we've been talking about. But as we've also heard by now, it's still very possible that neither candidate will have the delegates to clinch the nomination before the convention.
Now, if that happens, the ball will be in the super delegates' court, and the entire country would be watching.
CNN's Joe Johns explains.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what they don't want. The Democratic National Convention in Denver this year, descending into infighting and confusion, like the 1972 convention in Miami Beach.
It took so long to finish the party's business that the nominee, George McGovern, didn't get to deliver his acceptance speech until 3 a.m. in the morning.
Today, the fear among Democrats is that, in the contest between Obama and Clinton, the loser of the popular vote could end up winning the nomination when super delegates are counted.
JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: If there was a perception that one candidate won the popular vote and won the vote of delegates and that that decision was then overturned by a smoke-filled room of super delegates, I think it would lead to a civil war within the party.
JOHNS: Supporters of the system say it's no smoke-filled room at all. Super delegates get one vote each. They're just party insiders.
Lanny Davis is a friend of the Clintons and one of the guys who helped set up the super delegate get system back in 1982.
LANNY DAVIS, FORMER BILL CLINTON AIDE: It was a considered decision by liberal activists, such as myself, on the Democratic National Committee who believed we needed some more moderate counterpoint to all of the liberal activists like myself who were dominating in the primaries.
JOHNS: So have super delegates really mattered in choosing a nominee? If you're saying Walter Mondale, you probably think they were a good thing. In 1984, Gary Hart won 16 primaries and caucuses, Walter Mondale 10. But Mondale had locked up a bunch of super delegates early and came out the winner nice and smooth, the political version of "Kumbaya."
On the other hand, the last Democratic nominee isn't so sure about this super delegates thing. He supports Obama.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Ultimately, it would be a mistake on either side, whether it's Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, for super delegates to suddenly come in and say, "To hell with you, the people. You all voted across the country, and we're going to change the outcome."
COOPER: So what do the Democrats, Joe, say about this notion of super delegates being undemocratic?
JOHNS: Well, the people who support it, of course, they're going to say, it's more democratic. They say you have party caucuses going on. You have primaries in the states with low turnout. And you need some balance in there with people who've been elected by large constituencies, hence the super delegates.
The problem with that is you still have this perception of first the people speak, and then power weighs in. That's a difficult problem for the Democrats.
COOPER: It's going to be playing out for a long time. Joe, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
Up next, celebrities in search of the fountain of youth. It is not just stars in their 60s. We'll go up close inside the billion-dollar HGH business.
And if you've been to New York, you've probably seen this guy. Erica Hill just moved here. Not sure if she's met him yet. But we'll try to arrange that. Find out why the Naked Cowboy says the makers of M&M's should pay him $100 million.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. McNamee, you are a drug dealer. You may...
BRIAN MCNAMEE, TRAINER: That's your opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it's not my opinion. You were dealing with drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were dealing with illegal drugs. Tell me, as a police officer, how that isn't being a drug dealer?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Not really much of an answer there. Brian McNamee, former trainer of Roger Clemens, slammed as a drug dealer today for allegedly providing performance-enhancing drugs to players, including Clemens.
Now for his part, Clemens says he never took drugs, including HGH, human growth hormone. But some other famous faces are defending its use very publicly. Among them, two Hollywood stars.
We'll show you them in a moment, as well as a Beverly Hills doctor whose clients consider HGH the next best thing to the fountain of youth.
CNN's David Mattingly reports.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Hollywood, it's all about image, and relatively young stars could be the latest wave of customers turning to performance-enhancing substances.
(on camera) When people come to you, what are they looking for?
DR. ANDRE BERGER, REJUVALIFE VITALITY INSTITUTE: Well, they come for generally two reasons. They want to feel better and they want to look better.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): At the Rejuvalife Vitality Institute in Beverly Hills, Dr. Andre Berger sees a growing number of stars spending up to $15,000 a year on HGH, an injectable human growth hormone that some patients and doctors claim can reduce fat, build muscle and boost energy.
But where he used to see middle-aged patients, Berger is now getting calls from Hollywood 30-somethings wanting HGH and rap artists inquiring about illegal steroids.
BERGER: If they feel that part of being a, you know, a rap star is, you know, looking buff and having big muscles, and et cetera, so anything they can do to kind of bring themselves to look like that is just going to enhance the whole image.
MATTINGLY: So could some performers be going the way of baseball? Citing unnamed sources, the "Albany Times-Union" reported that a New York probe named singer Mary J. Blige and rapper 50 Cent among celebrity customers sent shipments of HGH and steroids. Neither is accused of any crime, and Blige denies taking any performance- enhancing drugs.
(on camera) And fans could be taking note. Markers for HGH therapy say it's become more than a billion-dollar-a-year business. Thanks in part to aging Baby Boomers who are willing to spend big bucks and emulate the stars whose looks never seem to fade. (voice-over) Some critics say HGH is nothing more than a dangerous placebo, elevating risks of cancer, diabetes. The FDA says HGH should only be prescribed for adults with a rare growth hormone deficiency or muscle loss from AIDS.
But older Hollywood has its own ideas. Suzanne Somers says HGH helped her make 60 the new 40. Sylvester Stallone, at 61, defends HGH as a way to reduce physical wear and tear.
DENNIS PELINO, USES HGH: You can see the Hollywood side from here. It reminds me of where I am.
MATTINGLY: Dennis Pelino isn't a movie star, but he lives like one. And after taking HGH for five years, this man doesn't look or feel like he's 60.
PELINO: The only competitive advantage is I can keep up with people younger than me. I'm not trying to set records. I'm just trying to stay in the game. I'm doing business here.
MATTINGLY: Pelino says he's been diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency. Dr. Berger says one in four of his patients has a deficiency and is prescribed HGH for limited periods of time.
He says many seeking the shot from a fountain of youth are turned down and surprised to learn that all those Hollywood hard bodies still demand good diets and lots of work.
David Mattingly, CNN, Los Angeles.
COOPER: It is a whole different land out there.
Erica, you're a dog lover, as am I.
HILL: Big one. Yes.
COOPER: And I don't know if you've heard about the big win at Westminster for the beagle.
HILL: It's huge. Are you kidding?
COOPER: I know. All dog lovers around the world are very excited about this. That's "The Shot" tonight. We'll have that in a moment.
But first, let's get up to date with the headlines and Erica's "360 Bulletin."
HILL: Making your way for the cute beagle, Anderson we start off with the Pakistani officials saying two suspects confessed to assisting the suicide bomber blamed for murdering Benazir Bhutto. The suspects arrested last week and allegedly admitting providing a safe house and arming the bomber.
President Bush signed the $152 billion economic stimulus bill, calling it a booster shot for the economy. That bill provides rebates of $600 to $1,200 to taxpayers, as well as $300 per child.
And the naked cowboy, suing the makers of M&M's for $100 -- yes, $100 million. Not to buy some clothes, no, no. The man known for his skivvies -- real name, by the way, Robert Burke -- accuses candy maker Mars of creating two M&M characters dressed in Burke's trademark outfit, a white cowboy hat, white boots, white tighty-whities -- of course, they're white if they're tighty-whities -- and a white acoustic guitar.
He performs nearly every day, of course, in Times Square. I had the pleasure of interviewing him.
COOPER: Did you really?
HILL: On New Year's, the first New Year's show that I did with you four years ago.
COOPER: Way back. That was years ago.
HILL: It was. I have to share one thing with you.
COOPER: $100 million he wants from M&M's?
HILL: And this is the best quote ever. He told the "New York Post," and I quote, "All I've got is my underwear. It's the most brilliant thing that's ever been created from a marketing perspective. I can't stop it."
COOPER: He can't stop his underwear.
COOPER: Well, I'm just going to move on.
HILL: I think it's a wise move.
COOPER: Tonight's "Beat 360." You may know the drill by now. We put a picture on the 360 blog. Some folks on the blog are complaining about the music. Frankly, I think it's darn good elevator music.
HILL: Love the music. It's Muzak.
COOPER: They don't get it. It's ironic. They just don't get it. That's all right. It's all right. I'm just going to move on.
You come up with the caption that's better than the one that someone on our staff came up with.
Tonight's picture is Democratic presidential hopeful Senator Hillary Clinton during a campaign stop at a General Motors plant in Maryland. The GM executive showing her a transmission.
Our staff winner, Marshall, the writer on the program, says his entry was, "You really do sweat the details. So will you drive it home tonight?"
Tonight's viewer winner is Susan. Her caption: "Senator Clinton, you can borrow this little baby to transmit your campaign into overdrive."
Yes. Not our best day.
COOPER: Check out other ideas at cnn.com/360 and feel free to play along. And if you don't play along, you really can't criticize.
Don't go anywhere. I know, Erica, of course, you love dogs as much as I do, but ahead the impressionable -- irrepressible beagle.
HILL: I'm sorry, you were calling me out for the live blogging. I was trying to live blog.
COOPER: The impressive beagle that made history last night. He came to Westminster as an underdog, blew the competition away. That's next on 360.
COOPER: Time now for "The Shot", Erica. Take a look. His name is Uno and today he's a rock star. The 15-pound beagle took the top prize at the Westminster Dog Show. First time in Westminster's 132- year history that a beagle has won the coveted "Best in Show" title.
Finally -- finally, the beagles get their due. Uno clearly enjoyed the spotlight. He jumped, he barked. He bayed. It's apparently what's called baying, by the way. He basically brought down the house, and who can resist such a little beagle?
HILL: I thought it was called howling. My parents have a beagle, Bailey. Trust me, he howls.
Anyway, so Uno, of course, is adorable. But there is more than just the Westminster Dog Show. There's also dramatic animal video.
I'll see your adorable Uno, raise you the ugliest dog in the world. Yes. But it's quite a contest every year. This is he Elwood, the current champion, a Chinese crested-Chihuahua mix. They seem to do well. Those crested Chinese little ones.
COOPER: There it is. That's the shot you kind of really want to...
HILL: So ugly it's cute.
COOPER: With its tongue bizarrely hanging out.
HILL: How about that?
COOPER: Yes. If you see any truly ugly dogs or beautiful dogs, or frankly any dogs, tell us about it - cnn.com/360. You can go there to see all the most recent shots, the other segments from the program. You can read the blog, which Erica -- did you figure out how to blog?
HILL: I did. I live blogged. There it is. COOPER: At 10:58 p.m. Let the history books reflect that.
For our international viewers, CNN Today is next. Here in America, Larry King is coming up.
Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow night from New Orleans.
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