Skip to main content
Search
Services


 

Return to Transcripts main page

ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

New Battle Strategy For Iraq?; President Bush Attempts to Bring Afghan and Pakistani Leaders Together; Behind the Lines in Iraq

Aired September 27, 2006 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
They're supposed to be helping us get Osama bin Laden and win the war on terror. But now Afghanistan and Pakistan seem to be on a collision course. Tonight, what it means for you, the war on terror, and what President Bush is doing about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: They're smiling now, but can they bury the hatchet long enough to help us catch al Qaeda? President Bush breaking bread and knocking heads.

While we're debating the war, they're fighting it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy God (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

ANNOUNCER: With the Marines in Iraq fighting a battle without the forces they need to win.

And, to prosecutors, he's a child sex offender. So, what about his followers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told him, I know what he's doing right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even marriages to girls under 18?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.

ANNOUNCER: Warren Jeffs facing charges -- his flock still supporting a way of life that amounts to divinely sanctioned abuse of underage women.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.

Reporting from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.

COOPER: Well, we begin tonight with dinner, high-stakes dinner. This evening, President Bush sat down with the presidents of Pakistan and Afghanistan, the two men whose cooperation with us and each other could be vital in getting Osama bin Laden.

The problem is, they're not exactly getting along. Here's a sample, starting with Afghan President Hamid Karzai on al Qaeda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

HAMID KARZAI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: Over the years, they were trained in Pakistan. They were given resources in Pakistan. They were -- they were brought up through some help from the establishment of Pakistan in the past 30 years, as we were fighting the Soviets and -- and subsequent to that.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: So, let me just get this straight.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: Please don't compare Pakistan with Afghanistan. Pakistan is a very, very stable country. We have a strong government. We have a strong military. We have a strong intelligence system. And everything in Afghanistan had broken down. So, how can you compare the two?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, sour grapes as the appetizer, what came next?

CNN's Suzanne Malveaux reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The body language said it all: stiff and distant -- President Bush standing between them like a referee. The presidents of Afghanistan and Pakistan shook Mr. Bush's hand, but not each other's.

The two leaders have been bickering very publicly while visiting the United States, pulled together at the White House by President Bush for dinner. Mr. Bush was frank about the need for cooperation.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have got a lot of challenges facing us. All of us must protect our countries. But, at the same time, we all must work to make the world a more hopeful place.

MALVEAUX: At the very least, Mr. Bush hopes these two leaders will help him find Osama bin Laden, who is believed to be hiding along their border, and that they continue to support his war on terror.

Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf and Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai, each visited the White House separately this past week, each accusing the other in interviews with CNN's Wolf Blitzer of not doing enough to fight the terrorists thriving in their countries.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

KARZAI: Afghanistan is doing all it can, together with the international community. We are losing people every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Afghanistan's Karzai accuses Musharraf of providing a safe haven for the Taliban, allowing them to cross the Pakistan border to conduct daily raids.

But Musharraf says, Karzai's at fault, refusing to take responsibility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

MUSHARRAF: But he is purposely denying -- turning a blind eye, like an ostrich.

He is finding it more convenient to throw the blame on Pakistan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Musharraf says the problem is, his neighbor is weak.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

MUSHARRAF: Pakistan is a very, very stable country. We have a strong government. We have a strong military. We have a strong intelligence system. And everything in Afghanistan had broken down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Karzai responded to Musharraf's comments, saying he was aware of his country's problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

KARZAI: We are a state that was weakened by years of destruction and war and interference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: But he says Musharraf is making conditions worse by supporting breeding grounds in Pakistan for would-be terrorists and by cutting a cease-fire deal with tribal leaders who have close ties to the Taliban.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

MUSHARRAF: This is the political strategy which is the right direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Suzanne, it was interesting. There was sort of a -- a press conference -- President Bush speaking before this dinner. We saw President Musharraf. We saw Hamid Karzai. Do we know, was anything actually accomplished at the dinner?

MALVEAUX: Well, you know what, Anderson? What's most surprising is that this dinner is not yet over. None of the motorcades have left. Everyone is still here. It's about two-and-a-half hours or so. And no one expected this to last that long -- one White House official saying he thought that that was a good sign.

But I talked to another White House official, who simply said, look, he's trying to downplay the expectations, saying, this is just a moment. It is just a first step, trying to undo years and years of mistrust -- Anderson.

COOPER: It -- it boils down to, though, this cease-fire deal that -- the Musharraf has signed with Taliban militants. You can call them tribal leaders, but they have very deep connections, if not direct connections, with -- with Taliban militants inside Pakistan.

Do we know, is President Bush trying to directly address that tonight?

MALVEAUX: Well, we certainly know that that's one of the things that they're going to be talking about. It was interesting, because President Bush, at his press conference with Musharraf, they actually talked about that. And he said that he felt, at least at that point, he got a -- a satisfactory answer from Musharraf that it was an agreement with the elders, not directly with the Taliban.

But, as you know, Anderson, that's a very gray area. So, that's one of the areas, of course, they're going to be discussing at the dinner.

COOPER: Do you expect any kind of press conference or any statement after this dinner?

MALVEAUX: We certainly expect a statement. There's going to be a readout from the White House, probably in some sort of paper form. We might be making, of course, some calls, getting some e-mails, don't expect anybody on camera. So far, we have been waved off any kind of, you know, coming out and some sort of picture-perfect handshake.

It didn't happen in the beginning of the dinner, been told it's not necessarily going to be created for us after the dinner.

COOPER: I guess they want to see how the dinner goes. Of course, if that does happen, we will bring it to you live.

Suzanne, appreciate it. Stay tuned.

Even if President Bush does succeed in helping these two leaders patch things up with each other, the question is, what's the state of their relationship with us, with the U.S.? Are they really the right allies to have, or simply the only ones we have got right now?

CNN's John Roberts has a closer look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush calls them friends, Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai, Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf. Certainly, they are crucial allies in the president's war on terror, but how much can they be counted on?

Bob Grenier is the former head of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center.

BOB GRENIER, FORMER CIA STATION CHIEF: Each of those leaders and both of those countries have very complicated political situations. And what is perhaps of the greatest relevance to us is that neither leader controls all of his territory. And that's where the problems of greatest concern to the United States really arise.

ROBERTS: And the greatest concern right now is the Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan. Musharraf denies giving the Taliban safe haven in Pakistan's tribal areas.

But, since he signed a peace agreement with leaders in those territories, the U.S. military reports, cross-border attacks have tripled. And, says CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, Taliban control in Afghanistan is part of Pakistan's strategic defense plan.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: They have, you know, something called strategic depth. It's the -- their kind of military policy, is: If India attacks us, we want to be able to have Afghanistan as a back area, from which we can regroup and resupply and rearm. And the Taliban is part of that strategic depth policy.

ROBERTS: And what about Karzai? Profits from Afghanistan's unchecked opium industry help fund Taliban fighters, who are killing American and NATO troops.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")

HAMID KARZAI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: We're embarrassed because of it. And we will have to get rid of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Is Karzai doing enough to eradicate poppy fields? Grenier says no, and by choice, afraid to anger warlords, who control the narcotics trade.

GRENIER: He dare not alienate large elements of his population who are not currently alienated, given the fact that he already has a very large insurgency that he's fighting.

ROBERTS: And, then, there's Pakistan's commitment to hunt al Qaeda. Does Musharraf really want to find Osama bin Laden? Not when he's far more popular in Pakistan than Musharraf is, says Bergen.

BERGEN: No Pakistani politician, including President Musharraf, would go after bin Laden, because it would be political suicide to do so.

ROBERTS: So, why stick with these two leaders? Well, Karzai was handpicked by the U.S., won a popular election, and remains fiercely loyal to President Bush. In Pakistan, there are no good alternatives. And experts believe, at his core, Musharraf is on the same team.

BERGEN: Here's a guy who survived at least two very serious assassination attempts by al Qaeda, has personally taken risks. I mean, in the real world, he's about as good an ally as you're going to get.

ROBERTS (on camera): The urgent and difficult task for President Bush will be to get some sort of commitment from Pakistan to deal with the Taliban issue. Until now, most of the attention has been focused on battling the foreign fighters that make up al Qaeda in the wild border region.

But the Taliban is quickly becoming the greatest threat to American interests in the region.

John Roberts, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Some more perspective now from CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen.

Peter, how can President Bush convince Musharraf it's in his best interests to try to clamp down on the Taliban?

BERGEN: Well, I think you could make the argument that the effort to help the Taliban in the first place, when they were a movement of religious warriors who first took power in -- in Afghanistan in the mid-'90s, didn't yield a lot of positive effects in Pakistan.

President Musharraf himself has talked about the danger of Talibanization of parts of Pakistan. There is a lot of Sunni-Shia violence inside Pakistan that is incited by the radicals who are allied to the Taliban.

And, so, you know, the president -- President Bush can make the argument to President Musharraf, look, if this thing gets out of hand, there's a lot of blowback, there's a lot of fallout in Pakistan itself. If you clamp -- if you don't clamp down on the militants, they will come back and haunt you in the -- in the future.

COOPER: Well, why did he sign this deal? I mean, he -- he, himself, just as you mentioned, has talked about the Talibanization of parts of Pakistan.

More than 100 Pakistan tribal leaders have been killed by the Taliban over the last couple of years. It's not as if they're good for Pakistan. Why wouldn't he try to crack down on them? Is it just that he can't and this is just a face-saving deal?

BERGEN: Well, there might be several reasons.

One is, when the Pakistani military has gone into these areas, they have taken a lot of casualties. It's...

COOPER: Some 500 soldiers killed.

BERGEN: Indeed. And -- and it's not popular politically.

There is an election in Pakistan coming up in 2007, in which Musharraf may well play. I think it would be very surprising if he doesn't. And these peace agreements are happening now in the run-up to the election.

COOPER: A lot of Afghans think that -- that Pakistan wants a destabilized Afghanistan; they want the Taliban to remain as sort of a trump card against a -- a powerful Afghanistan. Why would that be the case? And Pakistan vehemently denies it.

BERGEN: Well, I mean, historically, Pakistan has had a pretty strong interest in making sure that its man or its team is in place in Kabul.

There was a guy called Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who's an ally of the Taliban, who was a recipient of a lot of U.S. aid that was funneled through the Pakistan military during the '80s. He was a Pashtun militant. And when the Taliban came along, they switched horses, the Pakistanis, and put their money on the Taliban.

And, as of now, they don't seem to have taken their money off the Taliban. They -- it's sort of an insurance policy. As you say, it's a -- it's a card they have in the deck that they may play at a point when the United States or the NATO allies are pulling out, which, you know, the people in the region have long memories. They remember the United States closed its embassy there in -- in Afghanistan in 1989.

If history plays out again, and the United States' attention wanders away, Pakistan wants the Taliban as a card to play.

COOPER: Musharraf keeps saying, look, this truce deal, this cease-fire, is not with the Taliban. It's with tribal leaders.

Is that for real?

BERGEN: You know, I mean, I don't know, Anderson. I'm -- you know, the one thing that we're reporting today, coming from the AP and other sources, that U.S. military talking about three times more attacks right after the deal was signed.

The place that we were both at, Bermel, a place we can now mention the -- place name of the -- the base on the Afghan-Pakistan border, received 40 rocket attacks one night shortly after this peace deal was signed. And the peace deal affects Waziristan, which is right next to the -- the base that we were at when we had the program out of there.

So, I mean, clearly, there has been a spike in violence since this peace deal happened. And that violence is largely Taliban. So, you know, it's not -- it's not very difficult to make the connection between the peace deal and the spike in violence.

COOPER: How -- how detrimental to efforts in -- in the war on terror in general is this -- this fight, this disagreement, and what clearly just seems to be dislike between Karzai and Musharraf?

BERGEN: Well, I think it's pretty detrimental. And I think it's larger than just, you know, some sort of personal animosity between the two of them, which seems to exist. You know, Afghans sort of have disliked Pakistani interference in their affairs for a long time. And it doesn't matter whether it's Musharraf in charge or Benazir Bhutto, the democratically elected prime minister during the mid-'90s who was instrumental in the rise of the Taliban.

I think Afghans are very suspicious of Pakistani motives, and it's not just about personalities.

COOPER: Peter Bergen, appreciate your expertise. Thanks, Peter.

Afghanistan and Pakistan, of course, share more than just a border in their complicated history. Here's the "Raw Data."

Both countries, of course, predominantly Muslim -- in Afghanistan, 99 percent of the population is Muslim, while 97 percent are in Pakistan. Both countries, Sunnis far outnumber Shia Muslims. And both countries are poor. In Afghanistan, more than half the population lives below the poverty line. The same applies to more than a third of Pakistan's population.

We recently got back from the region, seeing firsthand the battle being waged for a country, Afghanistan, a battle that could go -- still could go either way, really. From the streets of Kabul, to a fire base not far from the border with Pakistan literally surrounded by Taliban fighters, we saw it all at ground level.

"Afghanistan: The Unfinished War," that's coming up, a special edition of 360, at 11:00 Eastern time.

And so is this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LANCE CORPORAL BEAMER DIAZ, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Nothing is going on. And, all of a sudden, two seconds later, you're in a big firefight, just fighting, trying to stay alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: We're going to take you to the front lines of the war in Iraq with a Marine unit fighting a battle that even their top general says they do not have enough Marines to win. As you will see, they are giving their all, trying to prove him wrong -- that coming up.

And later: With Warren Jeffs back in court, are his followers still obeying his commands, still taking teenage girls as wives? Find out.

You're watching 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, no matter what's being said about Iraq, no matter what you think about it politically, the reality is, young Americans are there right now, true heroes, just trying to do their jobs, trying to get home safe, and protect their buddies, and trying to make it out alive.

Tonight, you're going to see these heroes on the front lines. They are Marines given one of the most dangerous missions of the entire war. And our cameras were there to capture it all.

CNN's Michael Ware takes us to the battle zone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The angry debate over the war in Iraq, does it stop or actually create brand-new Islamic militants, means little to these guys. No doubts here. Their enemy is al Qaeda.

LANCE CORPORAL BEAMER DIAZ, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Most people here are willing die for each other. So, pretty much, it's -- it happens over here.

WARE: This is where it happens, Ramadi. At this moment, Marines closing around a fallen comrade. It began 30 minutes earlier, a patrol watching the al Qaeda-controlled streets from a rooftop, when an insurgent sniper surprises them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you see where that came from?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, directly in front of me.

WARE: Next, the Marines pushed home, only 600 feet back to their outpost, when they're hit, caught in a killing zone, crossfire from two directions. Somehow, only one Marine, Lance Corporal Phillip Tussey (ph), is hit.

DIAZ: It -- it gets pretty crazy. So, there's a lot -- a lot of times you're just sitting, nothing is going on. And, all of a sudden, two seconds later, you're in a big firefight, just fighting, trying to stay alive.

WARE: This was the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment's war, 600-plus men ordered to go head to head with al Qaeda in downtown Ramadi, in a battle their general admits he does not have enough troops to win.

CORPORAL DONALD BRIER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Definitely that I -- I lost one good friend. And -- but I have talked to his wife. I have talked to his family. And they're all coping well. So, I know I can cope well. If they can, I can. So...

WARE: These Marines fought day in, day out, repelling al Qaeda assaults from their outpost. A flew blocks down, the men draw an ambush in another street. The fight moves to a rooftop. In seven months, this battalion suffered 17 dead, more than many brigades of 5,000 in Iraq lose in an entire year.

MAJOR EDWARD NEGLOVSKI, U.S. MARINE CORPS: We're going to leave the blood and the lives of several Marines, the memory of their lives here. We won't forget them. But all of us will leave something here.

WARE: Their presence made a dent in al Qaeda.

CAPTAIN ANDREW DEL GAUDIO, U.S. MARINE CORPS: But the dangerous -- you know, how dangerous the mission is hasn't changed. We have stopped a lot of attacks. We -- we stopped them cold in their tracks, never really took any great pride. And, you know, how many people we have stopped, I have no idea.

WARE: But, listening to them, from the kids in the gun pits to the officers who lead them, you hear, in their own words, how the real price of this war is being paid.

BRIER: You get nervous when you come over. But, once you're here, you're nervous, aren't you? Of course you're nervous. And you're coming into a combat zone.

DEL GAUDIO: It's a -- it's a hell of a thing to come to grips with, but, yes, we -- that's what we are. You know, that's the -- the meaning of who we are as Marines, is be prepared to do that, if necessary. And, in my perspective, in my mind, there was no greater calling.

BRIER: I think it's still -- still not reality for me, even though I'm here. I see everything that goes on. I have seen things, you know, that you don't -- because you're here, your mind state isn't -- isn't what's going on here. You just -- it's day by day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're taking fire!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where else are we taking fire from?

DEL GAUDIO: And when I -- when I think of my men, when I first brought them out here, before we came out here, the -- you know, you could see the young -- the young faces, you know, naive to the world, and, you know, just -- just grasping for an understanding of what exactly what they were about to get themselves into.

NEGLOVSKI: I don't think you could come here to a place like this and not forget it. You would want to forget it, but you're -- you're not going to. It's just not going to happen.

DEL GAUDIO: The blood that we have shed here, we will certainly never, you know, forget the pain, the suffering, all the emotions, the -- the bleeding, the crying, the sweat, the tears. None of that will ever -- it's never going to leave us. And we will -- we will never leave it, because that's the legacy of our -- our fallen comrades.

I will do my duty. We will be here. You know, we will -- we will do what has to be done. We will do it. You know, whatever it -- whatever it takes, we will keep doing it.

WARE: Away from the politics on the home front, to these Marines, it's about surviving what their commanders call the meat grinder.

DIAZ: And it's not easy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: You know, Michael, you talk about a lot of these guys feeling like they don't have enough troops to -- to win the battle.

Do they feel like their reports are getting heard, like their -- their voices are getting heard, like that -- that people know what the situation is like where they are?

WARE: Well, I do remember one of the younger Marines saying to me, you know: Tell our story. You know, we do not want to be doing this in a vacuum. We want people to know.

But, I mean, the thing is their own general says that, as his mission stands for that province, the heart of al Qaeda in Iraq, it's only to train the Iraqi security forces. He said, he does not have enough troops to win against the al Qaeda-led insurgency. Yet, these are the guys at the tip end of that spear, at the core of the worst of it.

So, in some ways, you know, their own commanders are saying: We don't have enough forces in this place to win this battle. These kids have to hold the line -- Anderson.

COOPER: You know, there was also a lot of talk before, I mean, the -- the last couple of times I was there, especially in the beginning of the war, you know, about building schools and -- and refurbishing things, and civil affairs work, the kind of stuff they're doing in Afghanistan, essentially what they used to call winning hearts and minds.

Is that stuff still going on? Or has it gotten to the point where the security situation is so bad, they're basically just focused on, especially, you know, in this area, surviving?

WARE: Well, a departing civil affairs chief that I spoke to some months ago said that, essentially: Well, we have given up. I mean, there's no way to deliver civil affairs.

And, quite frankly, there was doubt about whether they would ever win the hearts and minds. Nonetheless, the brigade that's out there in Ramadi is attempting to do what it can. There's consideration of setting up a provincial reconstruction team.

But, most importantly, they're just trying to prop up the governor, make sure he can get back to work and back each day alive, despite repeated assassination attempts, and despite the fact al Qaeda has penetrated what little stands of that government -- Anderson.

COOPER: Michael, a very real look at the war.

Michael, thanks.

With not enough boots on the ground and a civil war either happening now or perhaps about to erupt, what's the strategy? How should American forces change their mission to adapt? Should they be changing the mission? And how long should they stay? That is coming up.

Plus: a look at one of Warren Jeffs' polygamist compounds. Today, he was in court. We wanted to find out how his followers are doing, now that he's behind bars. We're going to hear from the sheriff who broke the news to them all -- when 360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The growing battle over how to fight the war in Iraq, with the lives of American troops in the balance. What should our strategy be?

That story next on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We have already seen what Marines are up against in Ramadi in Iraq -- now the bigger picture, a new poll. Seventy-one percent of Iraqis, when asked, said they want their government to get American-led forces out of Iraq within one year. Twenty percent said within two years. And just 9 percent said only when the security position improves.

The poll comes in the middle of another especially bloody week of sectarian killing, which, in turn, is sparking a fierce debate within military circles about what our mission in Iraq now should be.

We get more from CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the battle for Baghdad and the larger war in Iraq, the U.S. has adopted a simple strategy.

MAJOR GENERAL JAMES THURMAN, MULTINATIONAL DIVISION BAGHDAD COMMANDER: Our strategy has three parts: clear, hold and build. When we go into an area and clear it, the next step is to hold and build civil capacity.

MCINTYRE: Clear and hold is a page right out of the war plan used in the latter years of the Vietnam conflict. It replaced the earlier strategy at search and destroy, which was aimed at simply killing as many North Vietnamese as possible.

Even today some military historians argue the strategy had the Vietcong beaten by 1972 and that the clear and hold strategy would have worked, had the U.S. not withdrawn its support for the South Vietnamese government.

But other military thinkers believe the strategy is all wrong for what in Iraq is becoming less a fight against radical insurgents and more a struggle between warring Shia and Sunni factions. STEPHEN BIDDLE, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: What we're doing in Iraq is taking strategies that are designed for classical insurgencies and misapplying them to terminating a civil war in a way that's making termination harder rather than easier.

MCINTYRE: Steven Biddle is a Washington think tank analyst. He teaches that, in a civil war, which Iraq appears to be in, you can't build up one side and turn the fight over to them.

BIDDLE: If we insist on getting out as soon as some nominally national Iraqi military reaches some level of capability, what it's going to be is the thinnest of fig leaves where the defeat will become pretty obvious as soon as we're home.

MCINTYRE: In an interview with the A.P., General George Casey, the top commander in Iraq, conceded the war is in transition. In his words, "from an insurgency to a struggle for the division of political and economic power."

Casey stopped short of saying Iraq has descended into a civil war, something Professor Biddle argues would be tantamount to admitting the current strategy is flawed. To end a civil war, he argues, the U.S. needs to get both sides into a power sharing agreement and then stick around to enforce it.

BIDDLE: If we're going to get a success here, we are going to have to stay in Iraq to police the deal that comes out. Now, with some luck, we'll be policing a ceasefire and not continuing to wage a war.

MCINTYRE (on camera): Biddle argues that Iraq is coming down to a race to see if political reconciliation can be achieved before the number of Iraqi deaths is so great that no peace is possible.

Time, he says, is not on the U.S. military's side. The U.S. military admits that reconciliation, a national unity government embraced by all sides, is the key to ending the fighting. While the U.S. continues trying to bring all sides together, so far there have been few milestones to point to.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, straight ahead, another story we've been following. Polygamous leader Warren Jeffs, as he faced another court hearing today, his followers are speaking out, insisting that Jeffs is being persecuted because of his faith.

Also tonight, the Senator who is trying to make polygamy a thing of the past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: What is going on in those communities is absolutely immoral, wrong, vile, and we must do something to stop it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Harry Reid will have the plan in his own words when 360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: For a man who calls himself a prophet of God, Warren Jeffs looked very human today. The polygamous leader turned fugitive prisoner appeared before a Utah judge. He was surrounded by court officers and followers who continue to stand by his side.

CNN's Gary Tuchman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Warren Jeffs was ushered into court under the grainy eye of a court-operated closed circuit camera. The news media's still camera was clearer and shows the former fugitive surrounded by elaborate security.

The judge informing the leader of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Church that the state will have to prove that it has probable cause to continue holding him. He asked Jeffs if he understood.

WARREN JEFFS, LEADER, FLDS CHURCH: Yes.

JUDGE JAMES SHUMATE, 5TH DISTRICT COURT: All right. Thank you, sir.

TUCHMAN: Jeffs is not charged with being a polygamous leader. He's charged with arranging marriages to girls who were still legally children. All part of what authorities say are years of manipulating and exploiting girls in the name of God. And one of those girls, who's being called Jane Doe, is scheduled to testify at that probable cause hearing.

BRIAN FILTER, PROSECUTION SPOKESMAN: The victim is doing well. She is looking forward to testifying and looking forward to having her day in court to address her victimization and what was done to her.

TUCHMAN: Jeffs arrives at the courthouse from the jail in a motorcade. SWAT team members stood on nearby cliff tops in case Jeffs' followers showed up. Only two did, though, including Nephi Jeffs, one of the self-proclaimed prophet's brothers, who sat quietly during the hearing.

After the hearing, the first hint from Jeffs' lawyers of defense strategy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does your client view this as a religious persecution of his people's beliefs?

WALTER BUDGEN, WARREN JEFFS' ATTORNEY: Absolutely.

TUCHMAN: It's a viewpoint shared by many of Jeffs' followers, including 21-year-old Parley (ph).

(on camera) Tell me what you think of the man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really honor him. Look up to him. And I stand and uphold him 101 percent.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Like most of the people in the twin towns of Hilldale, Utah, in Colorado City, Arizona, Parley (ph) regards Jeffs as a man who hears directly from God, a man whose word is infallible.

(on camera) What about the allegations that he's arranged marriages to younger girls? I mean, that's not right to do something like that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like I say, I uphold him. I know what he's doing is right.

TUCHMAN: Even marriages to girls under 18?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.

TUCHMAN: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes.

TUCHMAN: You think that's OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it's what he's inspired to do, I know that's -- I know it's right.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): It's not known if Jeffs' lawyers will admit their client arranged such marriages, which authorities say led to widespread sexual relations with children. But the lawyers do say...

BUDGEN: We're going to confront the witnesses against us, and there will be spirited cross-examination.

TUCHMAN: Jeffs continues to be held in jail without bond. A request for bond may be made at the same November hearing where we can expect to hear that spirited cross-examination.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: You know, Gary, we've seen a lot over these months. You traveled in Colorado City, how they shun outsiders. Has the behavior of Jeffs' followers changed since his arrest?

TUCHMAN: There was a lot of concern, Anderson, that after Jeffs would be arrested or killed, for that matter, that there would be violence in those two towns. There hasn't been any violence.

But the community has gotten more insular. It was hard enough weeks ago to try to talk to people there. I've never been anywhere in the world, anywhere on this planet, where it's ass hard to talk to people as it is in Colorado City, Arizona, and Hilldale, Utah.

And people now when we go there, they are scattering. The women are scared. They run in their houses. The men are usually just angry, and they run away.

This guy today, we talked to Parley (ph), the only reason he didn't run away is because he was doing surveying work in the middle of the street, and that's why he talked to us. But these people are told we are outsiders, that they should stay away from people like us. Warren Jeffs is continuing to say. And therefore, these people will do anything.

I'm convinced, Anderson, that, if Warren Jeffs's authorities visit there, that if Warren Jeffs said to them, go on top of these red cliffs, these beautiful red cliffs in Utah, and do somersaults down the mountain, a lot of them would do just that.

COOPER: Gary Tuchman, thanks. Appreciate the coverage. Warren Jeffs' followers say their actions are a matter of faith.

The Mormon Church banned polygamy more than 100 years. And tonight Senator Harry Reid, who's Mormon, is calling for a federal task force to investigate polygamous communities.

Here's Senator Reid in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REID: I'm the father of five children, the grandfather of 16. I can't imagine my little children being taken across state lines, being married when they're 13, 14, 15 years old, and then being in abusive situations.

What is going on in these communities is absolutely immoral, wrong, vile, and we must do something to stop it. They are crying for help. I didn't just make this up. There are people in these situations who are looking for a way out.

I just think it's a situation that cries out for something to be done.

The only thing they found that works really well, put him in jail. That works every time. As we speak, children are being abused, and women are being abused. They're being taken across state lines. Vile things are being done.

The federal government must do something about that. We have laws, and they should be enforced. That's what needs to happen, and that's what will happen. It's only a question of when. We cannot let this go on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That was Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid in his own words. When we return, you'll hear polygamists in their own words. We'll take you on a journey to Texas to the polygamy fortress known as Eldorado, one of Warren Jeffs' compounds.

And later, some breaking news. The high-stakes dinner meeting at the White House, it is just wrapping up. We'll get a live report from the White House, our allies in the war on terror and President Bush, trying to get them to get along. Find out if, well, any progress was made. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Before he was captured outside of Las Vegas, Warren Jeffs was rumored to be in Texas at the sprawling and, frankly, pretty bizarre compound owned by his polygamous church. A trip there is -- well, it's like a trip to the twilight zone, as CNN's Rick Sanchez found out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The followers of Warren Jeffs who live here call this 1,700-acre compound Yearning for Zion or YFZ. Isolated and closed, and still under construction, it's just three miles from Main Street, Eldorado, Texas, but a world away.

David Doran is the local sheriff.

SHERIFF DAVID DORAN, SCHLEICHER COUNTY, TEXAS: Once Warren Jeffs was arrested, you know, we wanted to watch the community to see if there was any major changes.

SANCHEZ: It was Sheriff Doran who broke the news of Jeffs' arrest to the leader of the YFZ ranch.

(on camera) What was his reaction to Warren Jeffs being arrested?

DORAN: Well, when I told him, it was no reaction verbally, but you could tell that the news was quite disturbing to him. Quiet, appreciated the information, but did not elaborate on anything.

SANCHEZ (voice-over): A stunning blow, but it seems not even being arrested has diminished the authority of Warren Jeffs among his followers.

RANDY MANKIN, "ELDORADO SUCCESS": He led this group from hiding. I think it may be easier for him to lead it from jail than it was for him to lead it while he was on the run.

SANCHEZ: Journalist Randy Mankin has been covering the yearning for Zion ranch here since the very first FLDS members moved here in 2004. He says Jeffs' grip is still very firm.

MANKIN: He has one or two contacts with one or two people to make sure things are going the way he wants them to go at his -- in his enclaves.

SANCHEZ: We tried to get on the compound, to ask the residents how they felt about the leader's arrest and what the future holds, but we encountered this locked gate and decided to have a look from above. (on camera) It is 8 a.m. in the morning. It's been a month since Warren Jeffs was arrested. Now we want to see the compound for ourselves. So we've asked local pilot J.D. Doyle to give us a flyover.

(voice-over) Only from the air can you appreciate the compound's massive size. A majestic 90,000-square-foot temple cut from this limestone quarry.

J.D. DOYLE, ELDORADO, TEXAS, RESIDENT: They can put up a 21,000 square foot building in 2 1/2 weeks, and the building would be absolutely flawless.

SANCHEZ: There's also a water treatment plant, 30,000 square foot homes, and even a dairy, all necessary to shelter and feed the large polygamous families of this sect, families that can have several wives and dozens of children.

The sheriff confirms it's been business as usual at the ranch since Jeffs' arrest.

DORAN: As far as we can tell, I mean, the day to day operations, from what we see from the outside looking in, has not changed.

SANCHEZ (on camera): What is business as usual are the stories from runaways about young girls being forced to marry older men. That's what troubles the people of Eldorado.

(voice-over) Sheriff Doran says he has no evidence of anything illegal on the YFZ compound, but he has heard the stories.

DORAN: We're aware of that, and definitely we're concerned about it. And, of course, the step is we have to have a complaint come into us, and as soon as that does or if it does, then we'll certainly act on it.

SANCHEZ: So for now, the 70 permanent residents continue to build the walls around them while their leader sits behind different walls in a jail cell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Hey, Rick, do the people who live inside the compound know -- know that Warren Jeffs has been arrested? Are they following the court case?

SANCHEZ: That's a good question because, you know, in the past that the followers aren't necessarily informed of all the things that go on with the organization. In fact, they've been kept in the dark while the higher-ups do know what's going on.

So we asked the sheriff that specifically. And he said he went out there. He showed the arrest warrant to Mr. Jessup, and then just to check and see if he was going to check -- if he was going to share that information with some of his followers, they did a flyover later on in the day, and he did notice that they were having meetings. They went into one specific building.

And it seems to him, says the sheriff, that they do, in fact, know, and they were dealing with the news.

COOPER: Rick Sanchez. Appreciate it, Rick.

Now a brief clarification. In a story Monday about Congressman Hal Rogers of Kentucky, we may have left the impression that federal money provided for homeland security was used to build the Center for Rural Development in Somerset, Kentucky.

In fact, the center was built several years before the Department of Homeland Security was set up. That's where they're doing some clog dancing. Although one of the center's tenants, the Institute for Hometown Security receives money from the department.

Moving on, new word tonight from a leading pathologist on the lethal drug combination that he says killed the son of Anna Nicole Smith.

And in the next hour, Afghanistan, the unfinished war. We take to you ground zero in the fight against terror. You're watching 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Tea time and terror talk with Pakistan's president. That's coming up. First, Randi Kaye has a 360 bulletin -- Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.

We begin in Bailey, Colorado, tonight where authorities say a girl wounded by a gunman in a high school standoff has now died. Investigators say the shooter walked into this school, took six girls hostage, released four of them, then shot one girl still being held, then killed himself. Officials have neither I.D.'d the man nor disclosed a motive.

The death of Anna Nicole Smith's son Daniel was caused by a lethal combination of methadone and antidepressants. That led to an irregular heartbeat. That's what the pathologist hired by the actress-model told CNN's Larry King tonight. The 20-year-old died while visiting his mom at a hospital in the Bahamas where she just gave birth to a baby girl.

In Dallas, Texas, there was no suicide attempt. That's what Cowboys receiver Terrell Owens said about the incident that put him in the hospital last night.

The denial came hours after a police report suggested he intentionally took too many pain pills. Owens says he had a bad reaction to mixing the pills with supplements. His publicist put it this way. He has 25 million reasons why he should be alive, referring to his contract with the Cowboys.

And researchers think they've cracked Mona Lisa's smile. After studying 3-D images of the infamous portrait, they say she was either pregnant or maybe even a new mom. The clue, they say, was in what she wore: a veil around her shoulders. Researchers say it was something Italian women wore at the time when they were expecting.

So, Anderson, mystery solved, apparently.

COOPER: Finally.

Randi, check out "The Shot" today. We want to warn everyone it's painful, kind of, to watch. A 7-foot-long javelin pierced the foot of a judge...

KAYE: Oh!

COOPER: Yes -- during warm-ups at the trophy Brazil Athletics Championship in Sao Paolo. Millions of people saw it happen on Brazilian television. The judge was rushed to the hospital where surgeons took the spear out of her step. Unbelievable.

KAYE: Look at -- all the way through that shoe. Not a way to score points with the judges.

COOPER: Yes. No 10s across the board. Randi, thanks.

This has been a strange week for Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. Until just a few moments ago, he was at the White House for a high stakes meeting with President Bush and Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

But when he's not talking to world leaders, he was promoting his book this week on places like Comedy Central. Here's some of his interview with "The Daily Show's" Jon Stewart, and that was pretty darn funny. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, HOST, COMEDY CENTRAL'S "THE DAILY SHOW": I know it is customary in Pakistan to offer tea to a guest for hospitality's sake. So I have brought you -- this is a jasmine green tea.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: Thank you very much.

STEWART: May I pour? This is an American delicacy. It's called a Twinkie. To your health, sir. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

MUSHARRAF: Thank you.

STEWART: It's quite good. Is it good?

MUSHARRAF: It's very good.

STEWART: Where's Osama bin Laden?

MUSHARRAF: I don't know. Do you know? Do you know where he is? You lead on, we'll follow you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Ba-dum-ba. Now, that's an ambush. John Stewart knows comedy. He knows how to get people to talk. By the way, Musharraf's new memoir, "In the Line of Fire", is now the fourth most popular book on Amazon.com.

Coming up, tonight's dinner has just wrapped up. Presidents Musharraf and Karzai at the White House with growing questions about each as an ally in the war on terror. We'll have a late update on this breaking story, what has developed, if anything.

And later, what is going wrong in Afghanistan? What, if anything, is going right? From the hunt for bin Laden to the Taliban's comeback. Afghanistan, the unfinished war. Special hour of 360 starts at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Five years since 9/11, is Afghanistan slipping back into chaos with al Qaeda the big winner? "Afghanistan, the Unfinished War", a special 360 coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: They're supposed to be helping us get Osama bin Laden and win the war on terror. But now Afghanistan and Pakistan seem to be on a collision course. Tonight, what it means for you, the war on terror, and what President George Bush is doing about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Friends or foes. The stakes could not be higher tonight as two key players in the war on terror, caught in a very public war of words, meet with the president at the White House.

This is what led America to war in Afghanistan. Terror on the home front; 2,749 people killed on September 11, 2001.

And the mastermind of it all, Osama bin Laden, is still out there.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm realizing bin Laden has more than gone underground. He's slipped off the radar.

ANNOUNCER: Tonight an exclusive look at the manhunt and bin Laden's last known home.

Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Reporting from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Search
© 2007 Cable News Network.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us. Site Map.
Offsite Icon External sites open in new window; not endorsed by CNN.com
Pipeline Icon Pay service with live and archived video. Learn more
Radio News Icon Download audio news  |  RSS Feed Add RSS headlines