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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Haditha Photos Revealed; Gay Marriage Ban Defeated in Senate
Aired June 7, 2006 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening again.
Tonight, only on 360, hard evidence, potentially incriminating evidence, that what happened in Haditha, Iraq, may have been a massacre at the hands of U.S. Marines.
ANNOUNCER: These images touched off the investigation. Now another set of images could make a powerful case for murder, photos that show victims were shot indoors, some at close range, a CNN exclusive.
Back home and healing -- the long road ahead for a wounded correspondent, and, already, some hope along the way.
Plus, family values or something else?
JOE SOLMONESE, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: They are desperate, and they're rolling out desperate tactics.
ANNOUNCER: Americans may care deeply about who marries whom, but do they really care what politicians think about it?
ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, tonight, sitting in for Anderson, John Roberts.
ROBERTS: And we begin tonight with hard photographic evidence intended only for officials trying to determine whether Marines in the village of Haditha massacred two dozen men, women and children.
Now CNN is the only news organization to have seen the evidence as well -- tonight, all the angles on the photos taken by a group of Marines who were ordered to the scene shortly after the incident to help clean up.
Also, new talk from the top Marine commander about whether he will step down if the allegations of a massacre are true.
And the bitter debate within the brass, active and retired, two very different views from two retired major generals.
First, though, the hard evidence, the photos, and what they show.
CNN's Jamie McIntyre has the exclusive.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So far, the only images of the November 19 Haditha killings, in which 24 Iraqi civilians died, come from an aspiring Iraqi journalist, whose video of the aftermath in the houses and the bodies in the morgue convinced "TIME" magazine to pursue the story earlier this year.
But CNN has seen a set of 30 digital images shot by a U.S. military exploitation team assigned to document the incident, images of men, women and children that Pentagon sources say are some of the strongest evidence that, in some cases, the victims were shot inside at close range, not killed by shrapnel from a roadside bomb or by stray bullets from a distant firefight, as Marines first claimed.
For now, the original photographs are evidence in a criminal probe, and only investigators and a few very senior officials have access to them.
GENERAL MICHAEL HAGEE, COMMANDANT, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I have seen the photographs, but they are part of the investigation, and I'm not going to talk about those -- those photographs.
MCINTYRE: But CNN was allowed by a source to examine copies of 30 photographs taken just hours after the killings, which a military official says match, both in number and description, the pictures in possession of investigators.
However, the source would not provide the images to CNN, out of concern for personal repercussions. There are images of all 24 bodies, each marked with numbers in red. Some numbers, one through 24, are written on the foreheads, others on the victim's back.
A senior military official tells CNN, in some cases, the numbers may denote the location of bullet wounds -- among the images, a woman and child, possibly mother and daughter, leaning against a wall, heads slumped forward, another woman and child shot in bed, a man sprawled face down with his legs behind him, an elderly woman slumped over, her neck possibly snapped by the force of gunfire.
All of the victims were wearing casual attire. Some had been shot in the head. Some were face down, others face up. The pictures appear to show the locations of the bodies in the houses before a Marine unit loaded them onto a truck and sent them to the morgue. Pentagon officials say there are no plans to release the gruesome images, even after the criminal investigation is complete.
Like the pictures of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, they say, the Haditha photos would simply serve to incite anti-American fervor, and therefore constitute a threat to national security.
ROBERTS: Jamie McIntyre's live with us now from the Pentagon.
And, Jamie, does this raise some questions about who got these pictures?
MCINTYRE: Well, absolutely.
I mean, it really raises the question of, what did higher-ups know and when did they know it? Did they see did -- did commanders see these pictures? Did they realize that the photographs essentially contradicted the official story that was given at the time? Did they seek more information, or is it a case where they saw these and said, gee, I don't want to know any more about this?
And that's what one of two investigations that is under way right now is trying to determine -- John.
ROBERTS: It certainly illuminates a whole different dimension to this.
Jamie McIntyre, good reporting. Thanks. Appreciate it.
It bears repeating that allegations of a massacre are just that, allegations. And no one outside the military has access to all the evidence. Even the military may not have all the facts. The investigation remains a work in progress and may stretch on for months. It helps to keep that in mind. It may also help to recap for a moment how it began and how we got here.
ROBERTS (voice-over): 7:00 a.m., November 19th, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment was rolling through Haditha in four Humvees, Corporal James Crossan in the last vehicle.
CPL. JAMES CROSSAN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: It just happened. Like, the last thing I knew, we were driving back. And we were -- me and T.J., we were just talking crap to one another. And the next thing I knew, I was down on the ground and then passing out again.
ROBERTS: T.J. was Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, killed when a roadside bomb tore through the Humvee. Corporal James Crossan was badly injured, knocked unconscious.
CROSSAN: And that day haunts me, because, when we were at the (INAUDIBLE) I was -- I was going to switch positions with him and drive back. And I just -- I don't know. I just didn't go through with it.
ROBERTS: What happened next depends on who you hear it from. The Marines' initial version of events said 15 Iraqi civilians were also killed in the bomb blast. Another eight, described as insurgents, were killed when they fired on the convoy.
But local witnesses tell a different story, of Marines on a murderous rampage after the blast -- among the victims, they allege, four unarmed students ordered out of a taxi and onto the ground. Witnesses say they tried to run and were cut down by Marine bullets. Witnesses and survivors say a group of Marines walked from their parked Humvees to the closest house. KHALID SALMAN AN-SAYIF, RESIDENT OF HADITHA (through translator): The U.S. raided the house.
ROBERTS: Khalid Salman An-Sayif's sister and nephew were killed in the attacks. He claims they were murdered, along with the family patriarch.
AN-SAYIF (through translator): They started to shoot randomly inside the house. They killed Abdul Hamid Hassan, A 76-year-old disabled man, by throwing a grenade under his bed.
ROBERTS: He says seven Iraqis died in that house. These pictures taken by an Iraqi human rights group show a trail of blood.
EMAN WALID, 9 YEARS OLD (through translator): My name is Eman. I'm 9 years old. I'm in fourth grade.
ROBERTS: Children were among the only survivors. Eman and her 8-year-old brother told their story to an Iraqi human rights group, at CNN's request.
E. WALID (through translator): First, they shot my father inside the room and set the room on fire. My father's name is Walid (ph). And they killed my grandmother. She was sitting in the living room. Her name is Kamesa (ph).
ABDUL RAHMAN WALID, 8 YEARS OLD (through translator): When the bomb exploded, they entered the house and they killed us. My father, my mother, my brother, they all died. Only me and Eman were left.
ROBERTS: Attorneys representing Marines have given other scenarios, possible sniper fire, fighting for three or more hours. Marines may have been ordered to clear the houses of insurgents. There is little doubt, though, that the Marines went to a second house, one owned by a family names Yunis.
SAFFA YUNIS SALEM RASIF, 12 YEARS OLD (through translator): My name is Saffa Yunis Salem Rasif. I am the only one who survived from the Yunis family.
ROBERTS: Iraqi witnesses claim eight people were shot to death here, including six women.
RASIF (through translator): We were inside the house when U.S. forces broke through the door. They killed my father in the kitchen, and the American forces entered the house, and they started shooting with their guns. They killed my mother and my sister Noor. They killed her when they shot her in the head. She was only 15 years old. Another sister was shot with seven bullets in the head. She was only 10 years old.
And my brother Mohamed was hiding under the bed when the U.S. military hit him with the butt of a rifle, and then they started shooting him under the bed.
ROBERTS: Next, witnesses allege, the Marines moved to houses across the road, gathered several families, separated the women and children and killed four men, all brothers, inside.
More than 15 hours after the Humvee was hit by a roadside bomb, the bodies of 24 Iraqis were taken to a local hospital, and, according to workers there, dumped in front of them.
Corporal Crossan, wounded in that first explosion, doesn't remember what happened.
CROSSAN: It's a tricky situation over there, because the enemy could be anywhere. But, if someone does get hurt, you are going to get angry, and you are going to want to retaliate.
AINE DONOVAN, MILITARY ETHICS EXPERT: If Haditha proves true, it will be, unfortunately and very sadly, the most memorable episode of this war.
ROBERTS: In a moment, Retired Major General John Batiste and his views on accountability right up to the very top of the chain of command.
First, though, CNN analyst and retired Major General himself Don Shepperd.
General Shepperd, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. Always good to see you.
MAJOR GENERAL DONALD SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: My pleasure, John.
ROBERTS: You heard Jamie McIntyre's report. What do you make of this evidence of the photographs? Does this shed any new light on this investigation?
SHEPPERD: Well, it certainly sheds a lot of emotion. It's everything you don't want to hear and you don't want to see.
John, this is looking very, very ugly. I am convinced that the military will get to the bottom of this, that all of us will find out what happened. I'm convinced that it will take some time to do that.
But I'm -- I don't think there's going to be any whitewash of this. I am very careful, as you stated in the first of the piece here, to not convict these people by things that we see, which are partial evidence. These men are going to have their right in court. But they are going to look at the investigation; they are going to look at those who reviewed the investigation, and then they are going to look at what happened. And it's sounding really ugly.
ROBERTS: You did say sounding very ugly.
General John Batiste has said that Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should resign, because his policies created conditions in Iraq which led to the alleged atrocities in Haditha. You disagree with that position and feel that Batiste has crossed the line. Why do you feel that way?
SHEPPERD: Yes, I don't buy it at all.
First of all, I have got great respect for John Batiste. He's a good guy and, by reputation, a very good soldier. He's been in the middle of things in Iraq. I have not. I have visited there, but not been.
But John's point, I think, is that the secretary should resign because of the way the war is going. I don't think that the resignation of the secretary of defense right now will do anything. It wouldn't prevent a Haditha. He wasn't responsible for Haditha. This is a breakdown, if it happened, of command at the local level, values of the people that did it. That's what has to be zeroed in on, or you won't fix it.
You're not looking for scapegoats. And the idea that, if we had simply had more troops there, none of this would have happened, I simply disagree with, John.
ROBERTS: But, General Shepperd, you do feel that mistakes have been made in Iraq and that the war is not going well. So, should someone be held responsible for those missteps, and, if they should, who?
SHEPPERD: We're going to hold people responsible. We have an election coming up, a midterm election, a presidential election. If the American public is dissatisfied, they can express their dissatisfaction through the ballot box.
Replacing the secretary of defense with two years to go, a new secretary is not going to be able to change anything. We have, in my opinion, the right strategy, which is, train the Iraqis to take back their country, and then slowly slip away into cantonment areas in surrounding countries, and then stand by to provide support for a long period of time. That is a sound strategy.
Adding troops isn't going to do it, and finding a scapegoat just to fire because things aren't going well, in my opinion, John, won't accomplish anything.
ROBERTS: Let me just get you to expand on that, if I could, General Shepperd. You said that adding troops is not going to won't work. Why do you think it won't work?
SHEPPERD: Because I think, simply, right now, there is no way politically, either in this country or in Iraq, to add additional troops over there. We couldn't -- we couldn't put another half- million troops in there to clear the west of Iraq of insurgents.
The Iraqis themselves would not want it. It would mean that we are being seen as occupiers and stayers, when we're trying to work our way out. The American people simply want us out of there. They don't want us to be adding troops and getting deeper in. This smacks of Vietnam: If we simply add another 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000, things would get better. That's the wrong way to go. It would take pressure off the Iraqis. They can do it. They will do it in their own way, if we train them. It's not going to be a pretty exit for us. In other words, there's not going to be parades and a surrender ceremony and documents signed, but it's just the way that the modern war on terrorism is going to be, in my opinion, John.
ROBERTS: Nobody will be throwing roses, I take it.
Let me come back around to Haditha. Democratic Representative John Murtha, who is also a retired Marine colonel on the House Armed Services Committee, said this about the Marines in Haditha.
He said -- quote -- "These guys are under tremendous strain, more strain than I can conceive of. And this strain has caused them to crack."
If the allegations about what happened in Haditha are true, do you think that stress could have played a major factor?
SHEPPERD: I think stress always plays a factor in warfare.
But what is more important is that training and discipline and values play the primary role. You can't let the fact that people are stressed, or people, you know, are -- you can't -- simply can't let that affect their performance out there.
Soldiers in wartime are stressed. That's what war is about. John Batiste can tell you about stress. John Batiste was stressed when he was over there. His men were stressed when he was over there. But John Batiste didn't murder anybody. And, if his men had, I wouldn't say, fire John Batiste.
ROBERTS: All right. Well, we will certainly hear from him in a second.
General Shepperd, thanks for being with us, as always.
Again, this story has touched off a firestorm on the blogs, on talk radio, and in the ranks. When we come back, another side from another general, retired Major General John Batiste, who's had plenty to say since he returned from duty in Iraq.
Also, a homecoming, not the easiest one for CBS's Kimberly Dozier, badly wounded in Iraq. How is she doing? What's her prognosis for recovery? Some insight from 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta coming up.
And a question of values -- people care about marriage and the flag, but do they care enough to shape the election this fall?
Across the country and around the globe, you're watching 360.
ROBERTS: At the top of 360, CNN's Jamie McIntyre reported on photographs taken shortly after 24 men, women and children were killed in the Iraqi village of Haditha. CNN is the only news organization that has seen those photographs. According to sources at the Pentagon, they are some of the strongest evidence that, in some cases, the victims were shot indoors, some at close range, and not killed by shrapnel or from a roadside bomb, as Marines first claimed.
With us now, retired Major General John Batiste, who, fair to say, was critical of the running of the war, even before Haditha came to light.
Good to see you again, General.
GENERAL JOHN BATISTE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: John, good evening. How are you?
ROBERTS: Very good. Thanks.
You heard about these photographs. What do you make of them? Is there any doubt in your mind about what happened in Haditha now?
BATISTE: John, I think that our tremendous military justice system will play out. The investigation will get to the facts, and there will -- there will be the appropriate level of accountability, no question in my mind.
ROBERTS: So -- but you haven't made any decisions about what happened there, based on this latest evidence?
BATISTE: No. I am going to wait until the investigation plays out and I hear what the results are.
ROBERTS: General Shepperd, who you saw on just a little while ago, says that you were out of line by calling for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation before this investigation is complete.
You do seem to be waiting for the results of the investigation before making a decision about what happened, yet you're not when it comes to Rumsfeld. Your response to that?
BATISTE: John, let's be clear. There's a direct link between the alleged atrocities in Haditha, the national embarrassment of Abu Ghraib, three, going on four, years of uncontrollable chaos in Iraq, a direct link to the bad judgment, the bad decision-making of the secretary of defense in 2003, 2004.
What should have been a deliberate victory, quite frankly, is a protracted challenge that we have today.
ROBERTS: And, again, what was the big problem?
BATISTE: The secretary of defense built his plan, his plan alone, to take America to war. That plan ignored the potential for the insurgency. It never built in the capability and the force structure to build the peace and to set Iraq up for self-reliance.
ROBERTS: Coming back around... BATISTE: We...
ROBERTS: Sorry. Go ahead.
BATISTE: We went to war with insufficient troops, insufficient capability from the very beginning by a factor of more than three. This allowed the insurgency to take root and grow and grow and grow to where it is today.
ROBERTS: General, let me come back around to Haditha.
A "Wall Street Journal" op-ed piece argued that -- quote -- "Abuses and violations of the laws of war have occurred in every armed conflict in human history. By the standards of past conflicts, U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have behaved in exemplary fashion."
Do opinions like that at all mitigate your conclusions about Rumsfeld?
BATISTE: No, not at all. We still get back to the same issue of accountability.
This country went to war with the wrong plan. This country went to war and overcommitted its resources, its military. We went to war in insufficient numbers. We set the conditions for the insurgency to take root and then grow to where it is today.
Listen, commanders at all levels in Iraq have been forced to manage shortages since the beginning. We shift routinely coalition and Iraqi security forces from one contentious area to another. It's a shell game. And the insurgent routinely reorganizes and fills the vacuum as soon as we leave an area.
ROBERTS: Let -- let me...
BATISTE: The cycle continues to repeat itself in places like Tal Afar, An Najaf, Samarra, Fallujah, Ramadi, and on and on and on.
ROBERTS: Let me ask you this question, if I could, quickly, General. We heard from President Bush over and over again and the secretary of defense: I'm not hearing the need from my commanders in the field for more troops.
Did you ever say to the secretary of defense or to Tommy Franks or to President Bush, hey, I need more guys on the ground?
BATISTE: Listen, John, we -- we work within our chain of command, within our system. You bet we had great discussions, great arguments. We dealt with what we had.
This is the reason I left the military. I turned down promotion, by all accounts, a great career in the future. But I realized that somebody needed to turn the lights on in the room. And I took that. I'm honor-bound to continue speaking, speaking the truth.
ROBERTS: You have shone a very bright light on this issue. General Batiste, thanks again for being with us. Always a pleasure to see you, sir.
BATISTE: Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: An IED explosion killing one Marine sparked the alleged atrocity in Haditha. It's a common insurgent tactic. How common? Here's the "Raw Data" for you.
Since the war in Iraq began, 828 U.S. troops have been killed by IEDs, accounting for 33 percent of all U.S. troop deaths. That's more than double the next leading cause, hostile fire.
In the Senate today, a vote on same-sex marriage -- a bitter defeat to some, a reason to gloat for others. It's an issue that is pitting Republican against Republican. We will hear from two who couldn't be further apart on the issue.
Also, do Americans really want Washington politicians to have the final say on same-sex marriage? Could it all backfire come November in the midterm elections?
All that and more ahead on 360.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICK SANTORUM (R), PENNSYLVANIA: If marriage is not about one man and one woman, for the purpose of a relationship of which to have children and continue the society, then what? If it's about two women or two men, why not two women and three men? Why not whatever arrangement? If -- if gender doesn't matter anymore, why does number matter?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Senator Rick Santorum, Republican from Pennsylvania, talking about same-sex marriage today in Washington.
Just like immigration reform, it is an issue that is dividing Republicans at a crucial time. The midterm elections are now just five months away. Control of Congress is at stake, and some Republicans were hoping a proposed constitutional ban on same-sex marriages would help rally voters, conservative voters, come November.
But today, in the Senate, a stinging defeat -- the measure didn't even get the symbolic majority that its backers had expected.
Here's CNN's Dana Bash.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Republican sponsor of a same sex marriage ban opened the week with a bold prediction.
SEN. WAYNE ALLARD (R), COLORADO: ... that we will gain more than a majority on this vote. I think that's a very significant milestone. This will be the first time since this amendment has been brought up in the Senate that we will have had more than 50 percent.
BASH: But that didn't happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The yeas are 49. The nays are 48.
BASH: And the sting of defeat was impossible to hide.
ALLARD: We were hoping to get over -- over 50 percent, but that didn't happen today.
BASH: GOP supporters of a federal same-sex marriage ban knew they would be far short of the 67 votes needed to change the Constitution. But Senate Republicans gained four seats since last voting on this in 2004 and thought, this time, they proved their position is gaining steam. Now it's their opponents claiming they won the political upper hand.
JOE SOLMONESE, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: They are desperate. And they're rolling out desperate tactics. And, of course, and as I think is going to happen ongoingly, these kind of moves, these mean- spirited, divisive moves, are going to backfire on them.
BASH: What happened? Two Republicans, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, who voted yes on this measure two years ago, switched.
Gregg says he now thinks the matter is best left to the states, instead of changing the Constitution, and made clear he disagrees with President Bush's argument that activist judges are threatening the traditional definition of marriage.
"Fortunately, such legal pandemonium has not ensued," Gregg said in a statement. A third senator Republicans were relying on, Chuck Hagel, did not vote. He was in his home state of Nebraska with President Bush.
Some social conservatives say the president is at least partly to blame for a disappointing vote, because he went silent on the issue after playing it up in 2004.
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: The administration should have been out on this issue earlier, I think. I actually believe that the discussion should never have stopped from the campaign.
BASH: But supporters vowed not to give up and took the long view.
SANTORUM: The nation has, to some degree, focused on this issue. We have had a debate about what the consequences are for this country, if the definition of marriage is changed in America.
BASH (on camera): The question is how this will affect Republican election-year efforts to energize the party's conservative base. Some conservative activists insist it will help galvanize the rank and file, but other republicans strategists cast this as a clear defeat for the president and GOP congressional leaders who appear out of touch by pushing this issue at all. Dana Bash, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk a little bit more about this now. Joining me are Patrick Guerriero, he's the president of the Log Cabin Republicans, and Joe Glover, he is the president of the Family Policy Network. Both groups loyal to the same party, but about as far apart on this issue as you can possibly get. Let me throw this out to both of you. And Joe Glover, maybe you can answer it first. Is this the end of the road for the same-sex marriage amendment?
JOE GLOVER, PRESIDENT, FAMILY POLICY NETWORK: Well, of course not. You know, we were both -- all three of us were on the other night and discussed this issue before the vote. And since then, this vote in the senate's not the only thing that's taking place. We've also had two major victories for marriage. One was in Pennsylvania where the House of Representatives was expected to have a close vote, and it wound up being 2 to 1 in favor of a marriage amendment there.
It was very strong language, in fact. And in Alabama where we won 4 to 1 to protect marriage in the state of Alabama, in spite of half a million votes beyond the republican primary being cast. So no, this is a long-term battle. We've got a lot of talk right now about some key senators that are now going to be targeted in the fall elections and beyond. And I think that we're on our way to doing what we need to do. But this was an important first and second step.
ROBERTS: Pat Guerrero, you want to take a swing at that? Is it dead?
PAT GUERRIERO, PRESIDENT, LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS: This was a colossal defeat for social extremism in America and in the Republican Party. The reality is that they were claiming they were going to win, win a majority. And this was a victory, really, for common sense, a victory for common decency. A victory for conservative federalism, believing that as Joe just made a case for, that states can deal with this issue that politicians in Washington should stay out of the business of family law, which has been precedent-setting in American history. And I think it was a victory for people who respect the American constitution.
ROBERTS: Joe, let's get you to expand on that point. Failure of this bill was not a surprise, support for an amendment has been slipping, as Patrick Guerriero rightly pointed out, you pointed out before this was being handled by the states.
GLOVER: Well I don't know that it has been slipping.
ROBERTS: Well polls show that it has. So let's just stipulate that polls show that it's been slipping.
GLOVER: No, actually that's not true. ROBERTS: Polls that we've taken have shown support for it. But I don't want to argue about the actual methodology of polling. The question I wanted to ask you was --
GLOVER: Well, but John, you keep asserting that in fact, the numbers are slipping when, in fact, every time a state has an opportunity to educate people from both sides of this issue, over 70 percent on average have endorsed protecting marriage in the constitution.
GUERRIERO: Joe, you have a right to your own opinion and I respect that there will be differences of opinion, you just don't have a right to your own facts. The facts are that every single year, as the American family has a dialogue about how to respect all citizens regardless of sexual orientation, that more and more people recognize there needs to be some civil way where law-abiding, tax-paying, gay and lesbian families can take on the responsibilities of lifelong relationships and have access to hospital care, inheritance and the basic things that the majority of Americans have.
GLOVER: You've already got that, Patrick.
GUERRIERO: I'm glad you could tell me what I have. The reality is we both pay taxes and I do not have those same responsibilities and benefits.
GLOVER: You absolutely have those things with a simple piece of paper, you can get visitation rights and you can have a will and leave money and an inheritance to anybody that you want. But this is about pushing a social agenda that's against 70 percent of the American people, every time the voters actually have full disclosure about what it means.
ROBERTS: Gentlemen, let me just jump back in here if I could. I'll let my first question go, but Joe, let me come back with another question if I could. You recently told "The New York Times" and said this about the "L.A. Times" and said this about the White House quote, "We don't believe them anymore. President Bush twice made a big deal out of marriage but once again it gets into that big cushy office, you don't here a peep out of him about marriage." Are conservatives disappointed with the way that the administration has been handling this issue?
GLOVER: Absolutely. You know, the president got in Air Force One and he flew all over the country for two months before the prescription drug entitlement, which most conservatives didn't support, came for -- to a vote, and he campaigned for it. He went to battleground states, and he made sure that he put pressure on swing voters in the senate.
You know, this would have been a great opportunity to head up to Michigan where Debby Stabenow, who's a democrat, opposed the marriage amendment today, and yet 60 percent of Michiganders supported a marriage amendment in that state and want a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. And so it could have been a great opportunity for him to put pressure on there but it would have been a great opportunity to go up to Maryland where Michael Steele is the probable nominee coming from the U.S. Senate in Maryland.
ROBERTS: Bottom line is --
GLOVER: But he didn't do those things and people are frustrated that he didn't take advantage of those opportunities.
ROBERTS: Well certainly this issue has made for some spirited debate inside the Republican Party. Joe Glover and Patrick Guerriero thanks for joining us again tonight. Really appreciate it.
GUERRIERO: Have a good night.
ROBERTS: Alright you, too.
GLOVER: Thanks for having us.
ROBERTS: The president may have won a few points or lost a few on the marriage debate, depending on how you look at it, but the cost could far outweigh any political benefit. More ahead on the price of pushing social values.
Also tonight, back home, CBS's Kimberly Dozier critically wounded in Iraq, returns to the states. We'll have an update on her condition when "360" continues.
ROBERTS: Traditional values. It's a catchphrase that politicians love to use. Mainly because it works. But for how much longer?
ROBERTS: The daily drum beat of violence in Iraq. The high cost of gasoline. An emotional debate over illegal immigration. These, most Americans say, are the biggest issues facing the country. But they haven't been getting a lot of attention in congress these days. Senate republicans instead have zeroed in on something they consider a proven vote-geter.
By the power vested in me by the state of --
ROBERTS: Same-sex marriage, the issue President Bush used to rally his conservative base to the polls in 2004. And coming soon, the GOP will revisit the issue of a ban on burning the flag. With the party divided on the war, immigration, and the economy, republican leaders are turning to social issues to pump up their core supporters, Christian conservatives. Political analyst Amy Walters says the message to the so-called values voters is clear.
AMY WALTERS, COOK POLITICAL REPORT: Here's what you can get with a republican congress. If democrats win control, it's because folks like you stayed home, and you're not going to get a lot of these issues addressed. ROBERTS: Republicans argue same-sex marriage is an issue of profound importance to voters.
SEN. RICK SANTORUM, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: We had a very forceful voice being heard from the American public.
ROBERTS: But a recent Gallup Poll shows less than 1 percent of republicans rank same-sex marriage as a chief concern. And some in the party worry the values strategy could further alienate moderates, independents and fiscal conservatives whose patience with Washington has already worn thin.
WALTER: Congress spends a week, week and a half on issues like same-sex marriage or the flag instead of a lot of the issues that these voters say that they're concerned about. I think there could absolutely be a backlash to that.
ROBERTS: Democrats certainly hope so. Moving quickly to paint the marriage battle in the senate as pure political gamesmanship.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN, (D) CONNECTICUT: That they're engaging in the kind of partisan election-year politics that has caused so many Americans to lose faith in the direction of our government.
ROBERTS: Even values voters are skeptical. Some feel President Bush doesn't really care about their concerns only their support. So it's an open question whether the values message will work the same magic this year that it did in 2004.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: And joining me from Boston for more on the GOP's values strategy is former presidential adviser David Gergen. Good evening to you David.
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Thank you, John.
ROBERTS: Well what's your take on this push by the Republican Party to appeal to and fire up social conservatives by taking on their issues?
GERGEN: Well I think we have to be careful of sweeping assertions here. It plays differently in different parts of the country, very strikingly today in the senate vote. Senate republicans from the northeast, five senators from New Hampshire and Maine and Rhode Island, along with Senator Specter from Pennsylvania, voted against the same-sex marriage ban, in effect. They voted to keep the debate open along with Senator McCain.
ROBERTS: Two of them changed their votes.
GERGEN: And two of them changed their vote this time. Judd Gregg from New Hampshire changed from yes to no on same-sex marriage issue. And also Senator Specter changed from yes to no. So in the northeast, it's clear that a lot of republicans don't feel that this energizes them. Whereas in other parts of the country, you take it into the Rocky Mountain States or some of the Bible belt, then it has much more of an energizing effect.
So I think one has to avoid a sweeping assertion. What republicans can say today is that on the immigration issue at least, in this very important special election yesterday in California, when a republican won and he believes he won a congressional seat when he really started hard-lining on the immigration issue against any kind of amnesty program and for border control, that's when he thinks his support went way up and he won the election.
ROBERTS: Yeah, it makes you wonder if anything could possibly happen in that conference committee.
GERGEN: Doesn't it signal that this is very likely a bill that's not going to pass this year? Because other house members on the republican side are going to read those election results yesterday in California and say aha! We thought all along, we'd hang tough on this issue against the senate, we may not get a bill, but we'll win a vote back home.
ROBERTS: So let me ask you this question. Everybody is worried about republicans -- everybody on the republican side at least. The (INAUDIBLE) worried about republicans losing control of congress, President Bush becomes a lame duck. But if house republicans keep control of congress by pushing the hard line on immigration, in contradiction to what the president wants, does that, in effect, make him a lame duck as well?
GERGEN: That's a very interesting point. I think it does, being it's much harder to govern. If they find, as the California republican congressman, who won yesterday, Mr. Bilbrey found, when he broke with the president on immigration, he did better as a republican. That does signal that while it's too early for democrats, way too early to start measuring the drapes over in the speaker of the house's office, so the democrats will have a very hard time winning this election unless they run better campaigns than they run in California.
Knowing even that the republicans put a lot of money into that, it suggests what you're going to see is more fracturing on the republican side. You're going to see people in the northeast going one way and the people in the southwest going another in the Republican Party. What the bottom line is, it may make it more likely the president can hold -- or the republicans can hold the house, but it makes it difficult for the president to govern.
ROBERTS: I'll tell you, David that special election in California certainly made what's going to happen in November look a little more interesting.
GERGEN: A lot more interesting.
ROBERTS: Thank you, appreciate it, bye, bye.
A colleague who nearly died covering the Iraq war, Kimberly Dozier of CBS is back in the United States tonight. In a moment, 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta will look behind the scenes at her life-saving treatment and give us an update on her prognosis as well.
Plus, the mother of a murdered college student. What would have been her daughter's graduation. Trying to keep her daughter's name alive. All that ahead on 360.
But first, business that hungers for success. It's "On the Rise."
UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Sometimes it takes a life-changing experience to push you towards your passion. That's what happened to Helane Cohen.
HELANE COHEN, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, LE PETIT COOKERY: I had been working in the technology industry and I had lost my mom suddenly and decided to take some time off. And when I thought about what made me smile, two things came to mind, and that was cooking and kids.
We're making Sloppy Joes.
COHEN: La Petite Cookery started back in 2001. We do cooking parties and classes for kids. Over the last two years, we've launched our online store which is where we sell all the cooking supplies for kids. One of the most unique things about our business is that people that have been competitors of ours on the services side are now our customers. On the product side.
UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Thanks to the online store, Cohen's business has heated up with more than 100 percent growth.
COHEN: There are a number of reasons for the cooking boom with children. One would be the "Food Network," the problem with childhood obesity is definitely causing also the interest to learn more about healthy cooking and also parents are looking for things that they can do with their kids as an activity together.
I love to cook. It's fun.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: It was just about a week ago that "CBS News" correspondent Kimberly Dozier arrived at a U.S. military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany. She had been gravely injured by a car bomb attack in Iraq. An attack that killed two of her colleagues. Tonight, Kimberly is back in the states, recovering. It's remarkable because at one point, she was reported to be so close to death that her heart stopped beating. 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta has been following Kimberly's treatment, he reports tonight from Chicago.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: 39-year-old "CBS News" correspondent Kimberly Dozier was alert and talking today as she was transported to a military plane at Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany. This afternoon she arrived at Andrews Air Force Base and was quickly moved to National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland, accompanied by her boyfriend.
Dozier has certainly come a long way from her earlier prognosis. You'll remember on May 29th when a Baghdad car bomb exploded near Dozier and her crew. Now they were wearing helmets and flak jackets and protective eyeglasses, but still Dozier's cameraman and soundman were killed. So was an American soldier and an Iraqi translator. And Dozier herself sustained serious shrapnel wounds to her head and to her lower body. A young medic applied tourniquets to her legs and that probably prevented her from bleeding to death. She was rushed screaming in pain to what's called the 10th C.A.S.H., that's the combat zone support hospital in Baghdad. At one point her pulse stopped. She underwent two emergency operations.
Within 24 hours she was flown to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. She was under heavy sedation and unable to talk, able to breath only through a ventilator and completely immobile. In a press briefing, her doctors were guarded. But just more than a week later, Dozier's progress is easily measurable. Statements from "CBS News" say swelling in her face has decreased significantly. She is sitting up, talking with her family, even cracking jokes with her boyfriend. She's able to eat solid food. She's able to have her hair washed. On Tuesday, she had her first physical therapy session for her fractured legs.
In a quote given to "CBS News," Colonel Brian Gamble, commander of the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center says, "She's made what I think is some pretty good progress. She still has a long road ahead, but I think it's promising." Dozier's first weeks back at home will be spent here at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, incidentally it's just a few miles away from her Baltimore high school. The staff will assess her condition and put together a care and rehabilitation program. Hoping she'll show just as much progress in the coming months as they've seen in the past few days.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Sanjay joins us now from Chicago. And Sanjay, it looks like Kimberly is making remarkable progress. Obviously, she's gotten the best of medical care from people who know what they're doing, but also what factor was the fact that she got such good medical care so quickly?
GUPTA: It's absolutely critical John. There's two things to really consider. One is what we literally call the ABC's of trauma, getting the airway established, breathing and circulation. That's what it stands for. She was treated very quickly in terms of actually stopping some of the bleeding from her legs, which could have been life-threatening. You lose a lot of blood very quickly. The other thing that's really remarkable, John I know you've seen some of this out there, is what are called these forward resuscitated surgical systems, C.A.S.H. hospital's combat zone, support hospitals, really remarkable. They're right there. They talk about this thing called the golden hour and whether or not it's actually an hour or so is probably immaterial, but you have to get treated as quickly as possible to stop the bleeding, take the pressure off the brain if there's brain injuries, all these sorts of things. So timing really is everything. I was out there, and I see people get injured, and within 20 to 30 minutes, getting treatment. That's really remarkable.
ROBERTS: Sanjay, as you pointed out, she suffered blast injuries to her legs and her head as well. In many ways, this is the signature injury of this war. From what you've been able to ascertain of the extent of her injuries, what kind of recuperative recovery period does she face here?
GUPTA: Well, you know, it is difficult to say. You're absolutely right, the blast injuries especially to the brain are the signature of this war. That's become more clear -- just even over the past couple of months. This is sort of new information that's coming out, John. If you look back at Vietnam, it was limb amputations, it was penetrating injuries, it was Agent Orange. In the Gulf War, it was a lot more of the penetrating injuries as well, as well as Gulf War syndrome.
But here what we have found is that people have these great protective gear, they have the flak jackets, they have the helmets. So they're surviving. But what's happening is because of the IEDs and the mortars and the hand-propelled grenades, they're getting these blast injuries where the findings and the damage can be sometimes subtle. Maybe they have some difficulty remembering. Maybe they can't recall certain words or speak as clearly as they used to. Sometimes that can take quite a while to recover from. They say with regards to brain injuries, you can make recoveries up to 18 months after the injury. So it really -- it's impossible to predict this early how someone's going to do a year and a half later, she could still be making gains. That's certainly what everyone hopes for.
ROBERTS: Yeah, and certainly this idea that you can make gains for 18 months may bode well for Bob Woodruff of "ABC" as well who suffered those terrible blast injuries.
GUPTA: Absolutely. He had what's called a dominant hemisphere injury, the part of the brain that's responsible for speech. I understand he's making wonderful gains and hopefully will continue to do so.
ROBERTS: Great. Well Kimberly's now getting the best of care here in the United States at the Bethesda Naval Medical Center and of course from all of us we wish her the best. Sanjay thanks for being with us.
GUPTA: Thank you, John.
ROBERTS: And still to come tonight, another side of the Iraqi conflict. A CNN exclusive. What newly revealed photographs show about the alleged massacre in Haditha. Later, a picture of the new New Orleans. Vastly fewer people, vastly different demographics. Will it make a difference to the city's future?
And the forgotten victims of Rita. The forgotten hurricane. All coming up in the next hour of 360.
ROBERTS: Good evening again. Tonight, a CNN exclusive. What newly revealed photographs show about what U.S. marines allegedly did to civilians in Haditha.
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