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LOU DOBBS TONIGHT

Special Edition: President Bush Pushes For Immigration Reform

Aired May 15, 2006 - 20:24   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, President Bush directly confronting his critics in our escalating illegal immigration and border security crisis, in an effort to save his so-called comprehensive immigration reforms from possible defeat in Congress.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition LOU DOBBS TONIGHT -- news, debate and opinion for Monday, May 15.

Live from Washington, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.

President Bush tonight making a bold attempt to overcome opposition in Congress and among the American people to his guest- worker program for millions of illegal aliens.

In a rare prime-time address from the Oval Office, President Bush outlined a series of measures he says will secure our borders and enforce our laws. The measures include the deployment of up to 6,000 National Guard troops to our southern border. President Bush also reaffirmed his support for his guest-worker program, a program that he insists is not amnesty.

The question now is whether the president's speech, long on rhetoric and short on specifics, will succeed in overcoming opposition to comprehensive immigration reform.

I'm joined now, for the next 30 minutes, by Wolf Blitzer, host of "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- also joining me now for more on the president's speech, three of the country's most distinguished political analysts and commentators, Charlie Black, leading Republican strategist, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, and Tony Blankley, editorial page editor of "The Washington Times."

I'm going to turn to you, if I may, Tony, first.

Did the president succeed in -- in -- in this address?

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, it's too early to tell.

I think his first point or two on securing the border, while the number 6,000 more security guards over the next several years seems to me very low, he may have scraped by. He talked about fences in urban areas. He talked about more -- more force. I think he at least is in the game, as far as being credible on -- on that part of it. I think, as the speech progressed to points three, four and five, as he got into guest worker and, then, finally in -- into citizenship, my -- my hunch is that conservatives have not lost their skepticism regarding the viability of those proposals.

DOBBS: Bill.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Exactly.

I would say somewhere around the middle of page three.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHNEIDER: It was a five-page speech. Middle of page three, he went from point one, secure borders, to all the other points.

If he had stopped right there, conservatives would have said, hooray, because that's what they want to hear about, securing the borders, his base, and a lot of Americans. That's the crisis, to most Americans.

When he went off into these other points about guest workers and -- and citizenship plans, and all that, he probably lost people. And I'm pretty sure he lost his base.

DOBBS: The architecture of the speech, Charlie, suggests that this -- the first half was all about laying the foundation for the second half. Do you think that's a fair interpretation?

CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think that's fair, Lou.

But, as the president pointed out, you're not going to solve this big problem with any one of those elements. It is going to take all of the elements to solve, over the long term, the problem of illegal immigration in this country. I believe the Republican base will be very happy with his -- he did give details about how we're going to secure the border, with the internal law enforcement that he talked about.

DOBBS: Right.

BLACK: And -- and we know from polls that I have heard Bill talk about, if people think they have got a secure border, they will consider a guest-worker program.

DOBBS: I -- I think that's exactly right.

And the question becomes, with three million illegal aliens crossing our southern border every year, 6,000 National Guardsmen brought up in support of 12,000 overworked Border Patrol agents, it seems like a -- a magical dance.

BLACK: That's not what he said.

DOBBS: And -- and...

BLACK: He said he is going to use technology, virtual fences, real fences...

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Well...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: And he's going to double the Border Patrol. That will take a couple of years...

BLANKLEY: My -- my sense...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: ... but it will be secure.

(CROSSTALK)

BLANKLEY: There's a mix of -- of border security and technology.

But 6,000 addition is an insufficient base level, even with high technology. I have heard numbers, 25,000, 35,000.

DOBBS: Force multipliers, Tony.

(CROSSTALK)

BLANKLEY: And -- and, so, but I think that at least he said got -- he talked about fences. At least he said enough, I think, to keep the conversation going in that zone.

But I have to say that I think some of the -- the words, the intonation, as it will be heard by conservatives, chastising people to be civil, etcetera, will rub a lot of people the wrong way who don't think they have been uncivil.

SCHNEIDER: I will go one step further.

You call this a bold speech. I think it was a pretty cautious speech. Even after he made the commitment of National Guard forces, he started drawing back. And he said -- quote -- "Guard units will not be involved in direct law enforcement activities. The initial commitment would last for a period of one year." This isn't a militarization of the border -- all kinds of reassurances.

DOBBS: That part sounded like he was speaking to Vicente Fox, didn't it?

SCHNEIDER: Yes, which he just did.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: It's actually a legal issue called posse comitatus, about how the law doesn't allow us to use the military to -- for local law enforcement. But the fact is, it was a bold speech. No one yet has come out with a five-point plan in some detail that, if you do all these five elements, we can solve this problem over the long term. Some people in Congress support one or two elements. Other support opposite elements.

But, Tony, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I thought he was calling down the illegal immigrants who have been demonstrating in the streets for being uncivil.

BLANKLEY: Well...

BLACK: I didn't think he was talking about you and me.

BLANKLEY: I -- I think the problem, as you know, in giving a presidential speech, you have to calculate how people are going to hear it. Now, maybe both sides will hear it that way. I don't know. I know that I think some conservatives will take it the other way.

But I -- I do think that he has at least put up an ante to keep the conversation going. This isn't going to be the final bill. This is his proposal. It's going to have to get through the House of Representatives on final passage. And the House Republicans, I think, are going to stand quite firm. And so if we get heavier up the first two or three points and weaken the fifth point and play around with the fourth point, you get criminal penal sanctions on employers. There's a small possibility of a passable bill that I think conservatives can be satisfied with.

DOBBS: This president talked about accountability for employers for illegal aliens and then veered as sharply away from the corporate donors and contributors to the Republican Party and the Democratic Party as quickly as he could. A very clear, clear inference that he's not going to be stringent in exacting penalties on corporate employers.

BLACK: What he said was as soon as we had the biometric digital fingerprint cards that temporary workers would use to apply for their jobs, then there would be strict enforcement. He is saying that under current circumstances where document fraud is so rampant, it might not be fair to enforce the law against every single employer. They might be innocent.

DOBBS: But as you know there are employers in this country, including AMC Theaters in which using the Social Security pilot program, they can verify the citizenship status of most of those applying. The fact is corporate Americans, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the business round table. Let's call a spade a spade here, have been pushing illegal immigration for years through three administrations.

BLANKLEY: There's no doubt that most of those business interests would prefer to see no legislation passed this season than anything. But on the other hand, the public is now aroused enough that they may have to give some ground and this is where the tough playing comes out and we'll have to see how Sensenbrenner and the House Republicans, how tough they can be in holding their ground.

DOBBS: Let me ask you this. Is it your sense that this president is demanding contemporaneous immigration reform with border security? If so, isn't he really asking, Charlie, for the American people one more time, trust me? Give me immigration reform? Give me amnesty? Give me guest worker, whatever you want to style it, and I'll catch up on the border security when it suits me.

BLACK: Lou, I didn't think it was demand. I think it was a recognition that Congress is not going to do one or the other but that you might get a compromise, maybe along the lines that Tony described, a combination of all the elements. You might get realistic border security enforcement and a guest worker. To me, it was -- tonight will remind people what they like about George Bush. It's a strong leader taking on a tough issue with a bold proposal and he wants to engage the public so they will urge Congress to adopt the compromise bill. It's that simple.

DOBBS: OK, let's go to John Roberts watching the president and taking a look at some of these issues. John, your thoughts?

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not only looking at the speech, Lou, but looking at the background briefing that was held by White House officials this afternoon, which gives you a lot of context of everything that the president was talking about.

I talked to Tony Snow late last week about this whole thing and saying, "Aren't you going to anger some of your base by talking about this idea of the guest worker program and the path to citizenship?" And he said "Well certainly we know that the president is going to upset a lot of Republicans and a lot of conservatives when he makes this speech and ties the two things together."

But they felt that the president really needed to lay down markers now with the debate going on in the Senate and to their hope, be able to work something through in the conference committee if the Senate indeed passes this.

But it also shows how far the president has come since the 2000 election campaign when all he was talking about was the guest worker program. Now take a listen to what he said tonight in terms of border security and the National Guard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Guard units will not be involved in direct law enforcement activities. That duty will be done by the border patrol. This initial commitment of guard members would last for a period of one year. After that, the number of guard forces will be reduced as new border patrol agents and new technologies come online.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: So here's what the Guard is going to be doing on the border, according to President Bush. They will be engaging in surveillance duties, analyzing intelligence, installing fences and vehicle barriers, building patrol roads, providing training.

As he said, the guard units will not be directly involved in law enforcement. And the goal of the White House is to do this for a budget of $1.9 billion, which is in the supplemental that's making its way through Congress, or less. And here's how they're going to do it.

Rather than taking guard units from in state and deploying them to the border for a period of a year or three-month rotations or whatever, they're going to take guard units from across the country who are about to enter their training rotations, which typically last about two weeks.

And instead of doing training rotations at their home base, they will send them down to the border to do those training rotations. So instead of having guard units that are deployed on the border for months at a time, getting to know the terrain, getting to know the lay of the land, getting to know how things operate across the border, you're going to constantly have this rotation of guard units coming in for a couple of weeks at a time, then rotating back out. That's all the way that the White House hopes they can start this up by June and they can also save a whole lot of money, Lou.

DOBBS: They can save a whole lot of money. The $1.9 billion supplemental that Judd Gregg and Senator Bill Frist through for border security, as if you will, the condition precedent for talking about comprehensive immigration reform, $1.9 billion, not even to conference yet. How feasible is this?

BLACK: That's on top of a two-thirds increase in the border patrol budget in the last five years. So it's about doubles the budget since the president took office.

DOBBS: My problem with talking about this, Wolf -- and Wolf Blitzer has joined us now -- the idea that we have raised border patrol expenditures and budgets by two-thirds and indeed the expense cost has been about 66 percent. But illegal immigrants crossing our borders has risen to three million. Apprehensions, 1.2 million last year, Wolf. How much money do we need to spend and how serious is this administration about it? That seems to be the question.

BLITZER: Two billion dollars is what the U.S. spends in Iraq every two weeks, $2 billion. We're talking about relatively speaking in terms of Washington money, relatively speaking very modest sums.

DOBBS: Tony, let me ask you this, the president talked tonight about our borders not being secure, 12-to-20 million illegal aliens in the country. Why has the administration just discovered that we have a border security crisis, four and a half years after September 11th?

BLANKLEY: Well I can't speak for them. I think they've been aware of a problem. They're now aware of a political problem. And that's maybe merged with their realization of the actual problem. Look, as far as the funding of this is concerned, saying we've added "X" percent over the past is I don't think the right analytical method. You've got to determine what does it take to solve the problem and then back engineer the appropriation necessary to do that. DOBBS: Tony Blankley wants results? Imagine.

BLANKLEY: And it is doable and these next couple of months we'll see whether we can get this debate going in a realistic way on spending in the House.

BLITZER: This was a speech that the president gave, Lou, in which he wanted to appeal to his base, the Republican conservatives without losing the Hispanic voters who are so important to this Republican Party. They're very nervous about that, Lou.

DOBBS: Wolf, I agree with you up to a point and then you say Hispanic voters. I categorically reject the idea that Hispanic voters are monolithic, of one mind in this country, and want a border that is insecure and want illegal immigration to be rampant and illegal aliens to move ahead of legal immigrants. I reject that out of hand.

BLITZER: How important, Tony, and maybe Bill wants to weigh in, to the Republican Party, to Ken Mehlman and to Karl Rove, is the Hispanic vote?

BLANKLEY: By 2050, this country is going to look demographically like California does today, half white, half other. The majority of the other is going to be Hispanic.

By 2050, Republicans are going to have to be getting 45 percent of the Hispanic vote to be a national party. However, I'm not convinced at all that they ever get to that point by undercutting their base. In the next -- most parties correctly think about the next election. And in the next election, they stand to lose a lot more conservative votes than they're going to gain in picked up Hispanic votes and they need to stay alive by being true to their principles.

DOBBS: You know, the British have a wonderful expression. Too clever by half. And I think that this Bush administration right now may not look like it, always, but they're being too clever by half, particularly on this issue. Bill Schneider?

SCHNEIDER: Well I think you mentioned the Hispanic vote is not monolithic on immigration issues. A lot of them are unsympathetic to illegal aliens, want to see tougher enforcement on the border. But they are pretty monolithic on the issue of ethnic insensitivity, which is the line that Pete Wilson crossed when he ran ads that seemed to stigmatize.

DOBBS: Well I think we all -- I mean, I don't think -- that's particularly isolated to Hispanics. I think we're all averse to that.

BLACK: So it's been suggested that maybe he's taking a risk about his own political base and he's also taking a risk about a certain segment of Hispanic voters. All of that is true. What the president is trying to do, he's crafted a proposal that might pass. Congress might pass and we might actually get on the road to solving this huge national problem. He's showing leadership. DOBBS: You know, the Pentagon's got an expression for carrying out wars that it's general staff can't figure out or imagine a way in which to win, and I will not specifically mention the war in Iraq, but it's called the long war. And now we're looking at the long solutions to a host of domestic issues, serious national security issues. There has to come a time when we're talking about a reasonable solution on the part of governance and we're well past that.

BLANKLEY: I think both sides need to recognize, my fellow conservatives and others, that this is an opening entry in a negotiation that is going to go on two or three or four months. And I think we have got the beginning of a negotiation. I'm not satisfied with this as a final bill. But I think we have the beginning of a honest debate leading to perhaps a decent bill, and we shouldn't foreclose it on the first hour.

DOBBS: And you know what? I think that's good counsel and reasoned judgment. And we all move to except that, correct? For more on whether or not the president's speech will satisfy his critic's in Congress, we are joined now by Lisa Sylvester.

Lisa, to what extent -- and you have been looking at it -- has the president addressed the concerns of those lawmakers worried about these issues with whom you've been talking?

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, overall conservative lawmakers, they are saying that this is really just a start. It's a very small step in the right direction. But it really does not even come close to what they say is needed to secure the border.

I mean, consider that on Friday, the talk was of sending 10,000 National Guard troops to the border. President Bush and Mexican President Vicente Fox then had a conversation over the weekend suddenly the number now today was down to 6,000. We are also hearing now that the guards men and women they are not even going to have a law enforcement role. So there's some real disappointment about sending only 5,000 or 6,000 guard troops.

Let's hear what Congressman Rick Renzi had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICK RENZI (R), ARIZONA: We're only graduating less than 500 border patrol agents in the academies right now. So you will never be able to stand up the kind of force you need and back fill in if you have only got 5,000. The problem won't go away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SYLVESTER: Representative Tom Tancredo reacting to the president's speech, says that he wants to make sure that this is not just a ploy. He is very worried that this all just a ploy to get an amnesty plan through the Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: The possibility is there that the 6,000 or 4,000, whatever we actually end up with, could be an effective deterrent if they're allowed to actually employ the technology they have. If they are kept, you know, filling gas tanks and doing paperwork, it means nothing. It's all sizzle and no steak.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SYLVESTER: Tom Tancredo, he says that he does like this idea though of an identification card for every foreign worker, a tamper proof card. He thinks this is a really good idea that he hopes his colleagues in the Senate will include in the immigration reform legislation.

Another idea that went over well with conservatives on Capitol Hill, this idea of using local law enforcement to assist the border patrol. But, Lou, you have go to remember here, these are members of Congress who have heard a lot of talk in the past. In fact, we even have laws on the books right now that are not be enforced, so they want to see real action. They're a little bit skeptical, and you can't blame them.

DOBBS: No, skepticism, it's a high bar. I think, Wolf Blitzer is here with me. Wolf, I think that's a very high bar for this president with these approval ratings, with these issues festering now throughout his administration. That may be the biggest impediment to success in communicating on these issues.

BLITZER: And I think he is going to appeal to the moderates out there, Republicans and Democrats. One key question, though, Lou, is will he have -- and Jeff Greenfield pointed it out -- a majority of the Republicans with him because there's an unwritten rule over there, Charlie, you know this that if the speaker and the majority leader on the House side don't have a majority with them, they are not going to bring it up for a vote.

Do you think he is going to have a majority of -- the Democrats are going to be with him. The moderate Republicans will be with him. Will a majority of the Republicans in the House go along with a guest worker program that leads towards citizenship?

BLACK: Yes. Every single member of the House Republican leadership has said if the border security and the bill is strong enough and there's internal support, we support such a guest worker program. If the leadership down the line is for it, you will get better than a majority of Republicans for it.

DOBBS: Bill, real quickly.

SCHNEIDER: The guest worker program I don't think leads to citizenship. He says temporary workers must return to their home country. Two separate issues, there's illegal aliens who are in the United States. He's talking about a citizenship program for them to earn citizenship. Guest workers are guests. They are here temporarily. They have got to go home. DOBBS: The federal government's unwillingness to enforce border security through the course of the past three administration is of course a huge policy failure that effects national security, leaves almost 300 million Americans vulnerable.

Joining me now to discuss border security and the president's outline of a response to that crisis, as well as illegal immigration, is Sheriff Rick Flores of Webb County, Texas, joining us from Laredo.

Sheriff Flores, good to have you with us. What did you think of the president's talk?

SHERIFF RICK FLORES, WEBB COUNTY, TEXAS: Well, it was a very interesting speech, Lou. Of course, there's still some ambiguity. I don't think the details have been finalized and there is still a lot of unanswered questions. I hope that he can come through with the fact of providing funding for local law enforcement. You know, we have got people that are ready to hit the pavement right now. And we just don't have the funding. We don't have the resources.

BLITZER: Sheriff, it's Wolf Blitzer. Do you understand what your relationship is going to be with those National Guard troops who are going to be deployed to the area where you work?

FLORES: That's a very good question, Wolf. That's something that we still don't know because it is ambiguous. You know, we don't know the details. We don't know what's going on. I mean, it is something that -- there's still a lot of unanswered questions.

DOBBS: Sheriff Flores, I was taken by the fact that President Bush tonight actually talked about the role for state and local law enforcement in providing border security and curbing illegal immigration. And one could quickly think the special order 40 in Los Angeles that prevents the Los Angeles Police Department from being involved in any way in apprehending or detaining illegal aliens who are criminal suspects.

This could have a riveting change throughout certainly the southwest and the border states, couldn't it?

FLORES: Well, right now we're already doing that. It's not something that we've been ordered to do, but you have got to remember that we're the first responders. Any time somebody picks up the phone and calls 911, we're the people that respond. And often times we happen to run into people who are smuggling humans. So we do apprehend these individuals and then we pass it on to border patrol. We work very closely with border patrol.

DOBBS: In your area, how many illegal aliens do you estimate are crossing the border successfully each day and night?

FLORES: I am sorry, Lou, I don't have that number.

DOBBS: Yes, that's the answer. The reason I ask it is that it's the answer I get from so many people in local law enforcement, whether they're sheriff's deputies or whether they are local police departments along border towns. The flood of illegal immigrants across this country, let me ask you what the president didn't. What would be the best solution to securing our border and ending illegal immigration?

FLORES: Well, that's a difficult question, but I can tell you that local law enforcement stand ready to help border patrol. I know that the president talked about beefing up, doubling the border patrol.

But that is going to take some time, and right now we have got people that are willing to -- I mean, we've got people that are already ready, you know, to put boots on the ground. And the only thing is that we don't have the resources and it's still -- again, it's ambiguous as to what -- how he wants to handle local law enforcement participating with these issues.

DOBBS: Well, sheriff I know that you and all of the border county sheriffs are doing a terrific job under terrible circumstances and dangerous circumstances, and we appreciate your time here tonight and all that you're doing for the folks who live in your county as well as all the rest of us. Sheriff Rick Flores from Webb County, Texas.

Bill Schneider, your reaction?

SCHNEIDER: My reaction is the speech was interesting for some of the things he didn't say. He didn't talk about any tough new enforcement action against employers. He talked about the government creating a tamper proof I.D. card. But I didn't hear anything about penalties or about going after employers, the people who actually entice and support the illegal immigration because they hire them. And there ought to have been a greater accountability there.

Also I was disappointed in his discussion of the relationship with Mexico. He said very vaguely that we are going to work with Mexico, Mexico is our neighbor, we are going to continue to work cooperatively to secure, to improve security, reduce illegal immigration.

It seems to me that the key to this is the relationship with Mexico and what the Mexican government does. That's absolutely crucial to solving this problem. We cannot do it in the United States all by ourselves.

DOBBS: Charlie?

BLACK: If we retain good relationships with Mexico maybe their government will do more, but the president is taking it into his hands and asking Congress to pass the legislation that will allow us to secure the border.

By the way, the House bill has big, new penalties for employers. I'm sure that is going to end up in whatever bill is there. So the president's five basic points didn't address every detail.

BLITZER: Why are you so sure about it? BLACK: Because I don't think the House will let it out without it, and I think eventually the Senate will go along.

BLITZER: But a lot of big companies, you know, agricultural companies especially are going to be upset.

BLACK: Well, they may be upset. But they're going to have to eventually comply and when you have the biometric card for a guest worker than they can legally employ those people.

DOBBS: Biometric cards, whether they are retinal scans, whatever the failure proof -- foolproof system of I.D., the two elements it seems to me at least -- and I would like to know what you all think -- the two things that have to happen to stop illegal immigration.

One is that we have to have a partnership. There is much made of the Vicente Fox, George Bush relationship. It is a disaster because if the Mexican government were providing its fair share of partnering with security at the border, this wouldn't be an issue. And that is straightforward. Secondly, if we were penalizing illegal employers of illegal aliens in this country, this problem would be a fraction of what it is today. Everyone in this town knows that. The American people know that. Why are we dancing around it?

BLANKLEY: On the second point, unless there are going to be perp walks for CEOs penal prison sanction, then is notice going to be a serious enforcement provision ash a fine is a cost of doing business. On the other matter of Mexico. We have to keep in mind, there's an election coming in Mexico and a very left-wing populist could easily win. Bush has to be careful about how he talks about Mexico over the next couple of months.

DOBBS: We are going to turn right now to our colleague Larry King in San Ysidro, California, on the border. Tell us about what you have coming up.

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: We have a lot coming up, Lou, first let me tell, this is a windy day in Southern California. I have Tijuana, Mexico, right behind us. I'm at San Ysidro, which is the busiest crossing point in the United States. What a panel we have Edward James Olmos, the distinguished actor, Jim Gilchrist, the founder of the Minutemen project, Representative Dana Rohrabacher, Governor Bill Richardson, you yourself, Lou Dobbs will be with us. Maria Elena Salinas, the Emmy Award winning anchor and John Roberts our own CNN national correspondent. There will be others dropping in, too. Right here at the border following this historic speech. That's ahead the 9:00 eastern with Mr. Dobbs aboard as well.

DOBBS: Looking forward to it. You stay warm, partner.

KING: I'll try.

DOBBS: Joining us now, Congressman, J.D. Hayworth, from Arizona, one of the staunchest congressional supporters of strict border security. First, let's listen to what the president said earlier in his speech. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I want to speak directly to members of the House and the Senate. An immigration reform bill needs to be comprehensive because all elements have to be addressed together or none of them will be solved at all. The House has passed an immigration bill. The Senate should act by the end of the month so we can work out the differences between the two bills and the Congress can pass a comprehensive bill for me to sign into law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Congressman Hayworth, Wolf Blitzer has a question. We're going to turn to him first.

BLITZER: Congressman, what did you think of the president's speech?

REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (D), ARIZONA: I continue to have a polite but profound disagreement with the president on this issue. I believe there already is consensus, whether you take a look at the different Senate bills that have been offered or what was passed in the House or my own enforcement first bill, the one clear area of consensus is enforcement.

I think we could move forward in that area, especially when you take a look at the inevitability of incrementalism in terms of public policy. I think the far more practical approach would be an embrace of enforcement and then basically have an election campaign dealing with the question of guest workers and the next Congress make a decision about a guest worker plan if that comes up. Enforcement first is key.

DOBBS: The president is obviously not putting it on that basis. He's talking contemporaneous rather than sequential. Why don't we have an election this November and look at the record of the Republicans and Democratic parties and let people decide if they will vote for people who will declare amnesty, who decide they are not going to support border security four and a half years after 9/11, why don't we do that?

HAYWORTH: I agree with that. That is the way we settle things in the United States. We not only put the question to the House or the Senate, eventually we put the question to the American people. I think that's important.

Having said that, I think we have to take a look at the recognition of the need of the National Guard is important, 6,000 agents. Let me put it in perspective for you, as I write in my book, nightly in Arizona between 6,000 and 6,500 illegals attempt to cross our border from Mexico. We need a lot more on the border. I welcome the call for technology. It's begun a conversation but I must tell you in all candor, I believe first, last, always, enforcement is the key component.

The other questions I think can be put before the American people and decided not in haste, but in a sober situation. Right now we need to enforce the law. Border security is national security and we're a nation at war.

BLACK: To my friend Congressman Hayworth, I think the president wants to do exactly what you want done about enforcement and border security. That's what he outlined tonight. But, J.D., the Senate will not pass a bill that's only border security and enforcement. It is simply not going to happen.

They might pass one that has a more generous guest worker program than the House will accept. As the president said, by adding all these elements together, having a good strong conference committee discussion, we could get an excellent compromise bill including the security enforcement element that you want.

HAYWORTH: Charlie, respectfully I disagree that the notion that the only way to solve this is to couple border security with a guest worker initially. I just don't believe that the House of Representatives, from the leadership to the rank and file, we have made it very clear. We believe so strongly in enforcement that that is where we will make our stand. The conversation will continue but I don't believe this is a classic situation in terms of compromise where you take one from column A and column B and everyone is satisfied.

BLITZER: This is wolf in Washington, Congressman. What you're saying is you don't believe that there's a majority of Republicans in the House of Representatives on board with the Senate version or with what the president proposed tonight?

HAYWORTH: I don't believe so. Of course the president does have the bully pulpit. He will work to persuade people to go in a different direction. I will listen to him and I hope he will listen to all of us. What I hear overwhelmingly from my constituents is the notion of law enforcement, not letting people cut in line.

And sadly, despite the president's protestations to the contrary, any talk of a guest worker plan is perceived as amnesty. It may not be his intent but that's what happens.

DOBBS: We thank you very much for being with us tonight. Bill Schneider, let me ask you this. It sounds to me as if the Senate and this president are casting the political fate of the Republican members of House of Representatives to the wind here.

They're going to proceed in a disconnect from the polls in terms of amnesty and border security and reach the so-called compromise and let Congress pay whatever the political price is because of an alignment in the Senate with the Democrats. That's a peculiar position for the Republican leadership to be in.

SCHNEIDER: They can't do that. The House has to pass the bill. They can't do it without the House. Here's the critical question. The Democrats, Wolf mentioned that the Democrats may be able to deliver victory on this issue because they agree with a lot of what President Bush said. Are they going to do that? Are the Democrats with Bush in such a weakened position going to be responsible for handing him a single victory?

DOBBS: In this case is victory defeat?

BLANKLEY: The problem is they're not dealing with the problem this year is a problem for Republicans, and dealing with it in a wrong way, the Senate version is also a problem. Republicans are at fault.

The one problem, going back to the Congressmen's view of having it on the election decision, unfortunately with the exception of some republicans in the House and the Senate, they have two parties, neither of which have staged out a firm position. There is no way to go in November and cast your ballot and have a national referendum because we don't have a split between the parties.

DOBBS: Charlie Black, give us the politics of it. The Democrats don't appear to want to run on amnesty, the Republicans don't appear to want to run on border security yet they want to reach compromise on both.

BLACK: I don't think amnesty is in play here. I even heard Senator Kennedy on your show earlier today come out against amnesty.

DOBBS: Did you hear Charlie Black refer to Senator Kennedy as even Senator Kennedy.

BLANKLEY: He was praising President Bush, actually.

BLACK: The public knows that Republicans control Congress and Bush as president. Therefore we need accomplishments. If we can take on a huge issue like this and pass legislation that is real reform and has a chance to succeed, it will be an accomplishment to help us in the election.

Again, it will have border security and enforcement as well as other program that i believe polls show was acceptable and in face popular with the public.

SCHNEIDER: Without intending to sound cynical, this is a two- sided issue with intense feelings on both sides. When you have that kind of issue, do you know what happens? Members of Congress, politicians want it to go away because no matter what they do, they will make enemies. They don't want to deal with this issue at all.

DOBBS: We've got enemies, al Qaeda. We're at war. Four and a half years later we don't have border security. We have three million illegal aliens crossing the border. Is there such a thing, Wolf Blitzer, as actually purifying our souls and actually dealing with a problem? Could it be that the best policy could be the best politics here?

BLITZER: Yes, absolutely. I've always believed that honesty is the best policy, what our mothers all taught us when we were in Kindergarten. If you tell the people the truth, they will respond. President, I think, to his credit, he's trying to bridge some very difficult gaps. Is he going to satisfy everyone? No. Is he going to have a deal? I suspect he's getting closer. DOBBS: Charlie Black, Tony Blankley, Bill Schneider and Wolf Blitzer. Good to be with you partner. Thank you all. Appreciate it.

Thanks for being with us. For all of us here. Good night from Washington. Right now a special edition of "LARRY KING LIVE" from the U.S.-Mexico border.

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