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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Accuser in Duke Lacrosse Case Previously Reported Rape; Fateful Letter; FEMA: Another View; Priest Killed Nun?; From Hate to Healing
Aired April 27, 2006 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: We'll talk to former FEMA Head Michael Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM ZALL (ph), FORMER NEO-NAZI: In my mind I was saving my race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: What happens when a street kid, beaten and left to die by a skinhead, later comes face-to-face with his attacker?
Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Live from the CNN broadcast center in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. We begin with what may be a major development in the rape case that has rocked Duke University. And it involves another rape allegation by the woman at the center of the shocking story.
CNN's Jason Carroll joins us live from Durham, with the latest.
Jason, what do you know.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, definitely, this is going to be something that defense attorneys are really going to be interested in.
All has to do with an incident report -- a police incident report that was filed in Creedmoor, about 15 mile from here, filed 10 years ago by at excuser. She told a police officer 10 years that three years before that, when she was 14 years ago, that she had been raped by three men. And according to the incident report it says, quote, "the three suspects raped and beat her." Once again when she was 14 years old.
Now, I took a look at that incident report. She names the three men in that report. The officer who took the report at the time asked her to write a chronological order of what happened or chronological account. Apparently she did that. But at the time the case was never prosecuted and at this point, it's unclear why -- Anderson
COOPER: Now, obviously the accuser's background has been raised as an issue in this case by the defense. How have they done that in the past? And certainly I guess this will just add to it.
CARROLL: Well, it's interesting, as you know earlier this week, Anderson, defense attorneys filed a motion here at the Durham County Courthouse, asking for the district attorney to turn over any and all pertinent background information on this accuser, information dealing with her emotional background, her criminal background. We're hearing at this point that defense attorneys were a little surprised that this particular information about this previous alleged rape was not included in that background information that they've received at least so far.
COOPER: So how did this past rape charge surface now in the media?
CARROLL: Well, throughout this entire case, little details about the accuser, details about the three men that she has accused have sort of trickled out day by day. It's unclear why it sort of trickles out the way that it does. You know, I think what's going to happen is defense attorneys are going to jump on this and use it to their advantage. And I think that the district attorney and prosecutors will say, this is just another attempt to try to smear this young woman.
COOPER: A lot of leak coming out on all sides in this case. Jason Carroll, appreciate the update.
Earlier, I talked about this new development with Lisa Bloom and Jami Floyd, both from "COURT TV."
COOPER: Jamie, let me start off with you. You think this is a big deal?
JAMI FLOYD, "COURT TV" CO-ANCHOR: I do. I do.
COOPER: How? Why?
FLOYD: Well, first of all, I view it from the point of view of the defense. This is a woman who, if she made these allegations before, becomes a far less viable complainant in the case. It means the prosecution...
COOPER: Why so? Couldn't she have just suffered abuse...
FLOYD: She certainly could have...
COOPER: ... at age 14?
FLOYD: She certainly could have. She could have been abused then. She could have been abused now. But it is all about credibility. And it means the prosecution has to take another look at how she's going to hold up on the witness stand if this case goes forward. And that is a possible way to impeach her in terms of her credibility. She has to then answer not only for current allegations, but to talk about what might have happened all of those years ago. So yes, it is a big deal, again from the point of view of the defense.
COOPER: It is certainly getting a lot of coverage. What do you make of it?
LISA BLOOM, "COURT TV" CO-ANCHOR: I mean, look, Anderson, I don't think it's relevant. I don't think it necessarily would even come in at trial. The question is not whether she was a victim of a rape before. The question is, did she lie before? Is there something that bears on her credibility? And there's nothing about this prior allegation that shows that she's a liar, that she has no credibility.
COOPER: Although it doesn't seem to have been pursued.
BLOOM: This is an incident when she was 18, and she and reported it at age 18, and she said she was raped at age 14. So it took her about four years to report it that time. By contrast, this time she reported it immediately, the same night. And that's why a rape kit was taken.
That other time, back when she was 18 years old, she dropped the charges. Why? She said she was afraid. So there was no court finding as to whether it was true or not. And that most importantly, there was no court finding that she lied.
FLOYD: We have to be practical, though. It's not purely political. Women who make these allegations, when you're talking about rape, it's all about the complainant's credibility. It's about whether or not she can get on the witness stand and be believed. That's what the prosecution is thinking about.
BLOOM: Well, that's unfortunate because I think it should be about whether she was raped or not. And I don't see how this bears on her credibility.
FLOYD: That is the question.
BLOOM: She could have been raped when she was a child or a teenager. She could have been raped again. In fact, many women, unfortunately, put themselves in dangerous situations over and over again and so are victims of rape or sexual assault over and over again. It makes perfect sense.
COOPER: Jason Carroll is working this story, but this is based on "Associated Press" reporting, and they say that authorities in Creedmoor, where these allegations took place, said Thursday that none of the men in this report, which is 10 years old, was ever charged. And they don't have any details. Why? I mean why -- if it was true, why wouldn't they...
BLOOM: Because our reports are that her family members have said that she dropped the charges at time because she was scared and she didn't want to go forward. And very similar to now, Anderson, where she's scared, her family members are saying conflicting things about whether she's going to go forward or not.
COOPER: Do you thinks...
BLOOM: It's a very scary thing to go forward if you've been gang raped.
FLOYD: Let's just remember, though, that the burden of proof is on the complainant. It's on the prosecution. It's not on these young men to prove their innocence. We know who they are. We know their names. They will now be thought of as sexual offenders, whether proved guilty or not, whether the case goes forward or not, for the rest of their lives. We don't even know this young woman's identity. She's been highly protected by the prosecution.
BLOOM: Well, her identity's all over the Internet...
FLOYD: Highly protected by the prosecution.
BLOOM: ... and she's been receiving death threats, KKK flyers on her lawn...
FLOYD: And the burden is on her...
BLOOM: She has not been protected. She's going from one undisclosed location to the next.
FLOYD: The burden is on her to prove the case.
BLOOM: It's a very scary situation.
COOPER: You're saying the burden is on her to prove the case.
FLOYD: On her and the prosecution...
BLOOM: That's not true. The burden's on the prosecution to prove the case. She's one witness...
FLOYD: And with her help and with her testimony. She is the only witness who is present to make the allegations against the young men charged.
BLOOM: Well, there were three other guys in the room, according to her.
COOPER: This is just a developing story that we're continuing to follow. Appreciate both of you joining us. Thanks very much.
COOPER: Lisa Bloom and Jami Floyd, from "COURT TV."
Onto our other big story. Tonight -- until tonight, we could only imagine what it was like to be trapped below ground in the Sago Mine, watching your buddies slowly lose their fight to live. Well, now we know. Today, a letter became public, written by Randy McCloy, to the families of a dozen other miners who never made it out of the Sago Mine last January.
Here's how he describes the end. "As my trapped co-workers lost consciousness one by one," he writes, "the room grew still and I continued to sit and wait, unable to do much else." And that's not all he says.
Here's CNN's Randi Kaye.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The letter is two pages, typed, addressed, "to the families of the loved ones of my co- workers."
McCloy describes in haunting detail the miners' desperate attempts to signal the surface for help using a sledge hammer, and how some of their breathing equipment failed.
McCloy has no memory of the blast itself, but remembers what happened next. The "mine filled quickly with fumes and thick smoke" and "breathing conditions were nearly unbearable." He writes, "the first thing we did was activate our rescuers." Those are the air packs used to buy miners in trouble an hour of oxygen.
But according to McCloy, "at least four of the rescuers did not function." "There were not enough rescuers to go around." So the miners shared oxygen.
WANDA GROVES, JERRY GROVES' MOTHER: Jerry's didn't work. His oxygen didn't work and Randall shared his with Jerry.
KAYE: Two hundred sixty feet below ground, short on air, the men took turns pounding away on the mine bolts to make noise. This effort caused us to breathe hard. "We never heard a responsive blast or shot from the surface." So they huddled in an area of about 35 feet, with only a safety curtain between them and the carbon monoxide.
McCloy writes, "the air behind the curtain grew worse, so I tried to lie as low as possible and take shallow breaths." Miners Martin Toler and Tom Anderson tried to find a way out. But smoke and fumes caused them to quickly return. "Worried and afraid, we began to accept our fate." Junior Toler led us all in the sinners' prayer. "We prayed a little longer and then someone suggested that we each write letters to our loved ones."
Randy Toler, the nephew of Martin Toler, says he was surprised to receive McCloy's letter.
VOICE OF RANDY TOLER, MARTIN TOLER JR'S NEPHEW: You just want to know what your loved one experienced in the final moments. You just want to know that -- you just want to know everything that you can find out it, and it's just -- it's just still, nevertheless, very painful.
KAYE: As carbon monoxide slowly asphyxiated his friends, Randy McCloy remembers feeling like this, "I became very dizzy and lightheaded. Some drifted off into what appeared to be a deep sleep, and one person sitting near me collapsed and fell off his bucket, not moving. It was clear there was nothing I could do to help him. As my trapped co-workers lost consciousness one by one, the room grew still and I continued to sit and wait, unable to do much else."
McCloy closes by writing, "I cannot begin to express my sorrow for my lost friends...I cannot explain why I was spared while the others perished."
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
COOPER: Well, you heard a bit go from Randy Toler a moment ago. Earlier tonight we spoke with him at length by phone.
COOPER: When your family received this letter from Randy McCloy, what was it like?
TOLER (on the phone): It was very painful, just reopened the thing which has never really been closed in the first place. The pain doesn't stop.
COOPER: You know, people talk about closure, which I think is just such a stupid word because there is no such thing as closure, as you just said. Does it help to know the details?
TOLER: It confirms that we suspected that my uncle would have prayed with the men and it confirms that. And it just makes us very proud of who he was and who we knew him to be.
COOPER: Yes. I mean when I was reading this letter, I mean, hearing about your uncle leading the men in prayer, it really gave me a sense a little bit of who your uncle was. It really gave a glimpse of what he was like.
TOLER: Right. We weren't surprised. But again, it just confirmed and it gave us some peace to have that confirmation.
COOPER: McCloy also said that four of the rescuers, the machines meant to help men breathe, did not function. I mean, what was that like to hear?
TOLRE: Well, one of my -- if that's true, my uncle's was one of the ones that failed. And I don't have much feelings about that. Equipment malfunctions. There is nothing foolproof. The only anger that I feel is towards the federal government for taking such a long time to get to those men.
I mean, if Randal McCloy lived the length of time that he did, if they had gotten in there sooner, some of the other men might have been saved. It just was inexcusable to wait the length of time that they waited and to start at the beginning of the mines where they could have started as close as 3,000 feet from the men. Because previous rescue efforts had gotten as close as 3,000 feet. And they started back to the beginning at 13,000 feet. And it's just -- it's a bitter pill to swallow, to think that some of them died needlessly.
COOPER: Do you -- you know, after those terrible days and that week and the weeks after the Sago disaster, I mean, there was a lot of talk about, well, you know, we've got to make sure this never happens again. We've got to, you know, increase mine safety. We've got to sort of re-examine things. Do you believe mines are safer now? Do you believe change has come?
TOLER: I don't know that there's -- that they're any safer. Some of the bureaucracy just needs to be cut out. It's just -- for them to take that long to start rescue efforts is -- there's always going to be to be danger in mines. And what happened with that explosion from all we know, was unavoidable. And I don't know that you can make them foolproof or safety proof like, to prevent something like this from happening.
COOPER: Well, more now on how Randy McCloy is doing. The doctor in charge of his case saw his patient again today.
I spoke with Dr. Julian Bailes tonight.
COOPER: Dr. Bailes, Randy McCloy has written this fairly detailed account of the Sago miners' last hours in the mine. Is it possible that as he's recovering more, he's recalling more?
DR. JULIAN BAILES, WVU HOSPITAL NEUROSURGEON: It's very possible, and I think we'd expect that. I've seen Randy and examined him as recently as earlier today actually, and he's just done remarkably, as you know. He's at home and taking outpatient rehab.
COOPER: How often do you see him? What sort of rehab does his recovery entail?
BAILES: It entails a speech rehab, visual cues, physical rehab, walking, a lot of work in the pool, things for balance, cognitive. So everything really that you would imagine. And he's taking that three days a week as an outpatient right now.
COOPER: Is complete recovery possible? I mean, would he be able to go back to work?
BAILES: I think it certainly is. As we said all along, especially since he left the hospital, that his recovery has exceeded our expectations. We don't know yet. Ordinarily with such a severe carbon monoxide poisoning, a patient would need maybe a year or so before we could make a final determination. COOPER: When he got to the hospital, I mean he had a collapsed lung, he had heart, kidney, liver failure.
COOPER: He was in a deep coma. Did the fact that his lung collapsed, do you think that actually helped him because he wasn't breathing in so much carbon monoxide?
BAILES: Well, I think we don't know. That has been a theory. It may be possible. Possibly not. Again, we don't have all the answers for Randy's survival mechanisms, but maybe he was in a better position. We just don't know.
COOPER: And in terms of his condition, I mean are we in sort of uncharted waters? I mean, is he -- to my knowledge he's the only person I've heard of who survived being in this kind of air for so long.
BAILES: Well, again, to the best of our knowledge, as we have said he is the longest known survivor, especially given the circumstances in the Sago Mine.
In people who have had severe carbon monoxide toxicity, we have had other cases and experience, and we know that it takes a while and that full recovery is possible, but, so is being left with some residual deficits.
COOPER: Why would it be that somebody doesn't remember the actual explosion? I mean, what happens in the brain? Why would that happen that they would remember sort of minutes after the explosion, but not actually the explosion itself?
BAILES: Well, I think a lot of times in a concussive blast like that, the brain is rattled, for lack of better term, such that it's not programming. It's not recording during that time. So that's very common. People in all sorts of accidents car accidents, falls who have a severe impact. So I think that would be consistent with what we've seen in an explosion such as this.
COOPER: And with recovered memory, I mean, I guess the memory is there all along, you just can't access it somehow in your brain?
BAILES: I think that neuroscience and medically, we don't have all of those answers about memory. But I think it's processing. I think it's putting pieces together. And it's beginning to make sense out of things that maybe are packets of data just like e-mail is sent over the Internet, and these packets come together at the end. And that may be an analogy of what's happening to Randy during this time.
COOPER: It's fascinating. Fascinating science. Dr. Bailes, thank you.
BAILES: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Well, the Senate report that rips into FEMA. It says the agency should be scrapped, and the man in charge during Katrina wasn't up to the job. He begs to differ.
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MICHAEL BROWN, FORMER FEMA DIRECTOR: I'm the one that was engaged and I'm the one who was sounding the alarm bells about what needed to be done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Former FEMA Director Michael Brown, coming up. We'll get his reaction to the scathing Senate report.
And you can't get closer than this to a real life version of the movie "Crash." Two people, and the collision that changed them both.
COOPER: As we said earlier, President Bush was in New Orleans today, his 11th visit to the still devastated city. It would have been a good photo op on any other day. But as President Bush was promising a better response to any catastrophic storms this season, the Senate was releasing its long awaited report on the response to Katrina, a report that rips into FEMA and the president as well.
Senators on the panel call FEMA beyond repair. Republican Susan Collins and Democrat Joe Lieberman want to scrap it entirely, keeping it though within the Department of Homeland Security, but giving it a direct line to the president.
The administration today dismissed that idea. The report also pulls no punches about Michael Brown, "Brownie," FEMA's director during Katrina. I talked to Mr. Brown earlier.
COOPER: So, Mr. Brown, what do you make of this? Should FEMA be scuttled, done way with?
BROWN: Well, I think first of all, Anderson, they're making a big deal out of using the terms "abolish FEMA." And what they're really doing, if you look at recommendations closely, is doing what I recommended in 2003 and following my recommendations just to put FEMA back the way it used to be.
COOPER: Used to be, how so?
BROWN: Well, in the sense that you have preparedness and response tied together. There's a great old military adage that you fight as you train and train as you fight. And you can't separate preparedness from response and expect to have any sort of effective response. Any emergency manager in the country will tell you that. So the most basic fundamental thing we have to do is get rid of this notion that Chertoff had, that you're going to have preparation over here -- preparedness over here, and response in a separate directorate. It's just not going to work.
COOPER: I want to play something that Senator Susan Collins of Maine said this morning. Let's listen.
Brown: Sure. Sure.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: There were several findings that I found particularly troubling. The first is the blatant insubordination of then-FEMA Director Michael Brown. It was clear that he was disengaged from the onset of Katrina. He failed to communicate absolutely vital information about the condition of the levees in New Orleans.
COOPER: This House committee also said that you virtually boasted about sort of doing an Enron around Michael Chertoff.
BROWN: I am absolutely amazed that my own party continues to trot out people like Senator Collins who make outlandish claims.
COOPER: What, you're saying you're just being scapegoated?
BROWN: Well, of course I am, Anderson. If you go back and you look at those videotapes that the "Associated Press" released, who's the one guy in the room who was engaged, talking about the Superdome, the evacuations, the people being left in hospitals, the people -- the elderly that were being left back in New Orleans? I'm the one that was engaged and I'm the one who was sounding the alarm bells about what needed to be done. And...
COOPER: But the criticism is that you weren't sending those alarm bells directly to Michael Chertoff, which is what you were supposed to be doing and that there were a number of steps which you didn't take per the recommendations.
BROWN: Anderson, how can anyone claim that that's true when Michael Chertoff is on the same conference calls that I'm on, when he's listening to what I'm saying? How can they claim insubordination when in fact the president of the United States is the one calling me, and that's the way we operated in every disaster, every -- 160 disasters I handed it was always the director of FEMA Michael Brown to the president of the United States George W. Bush. That's not insubordination. That's doing emergency management.
COOPER: Among the report's 86 recommendations, is this one. It says, "The director...should have significant experience in crisis management, in addition to substantial management and leadership experience." For years FEMA has sort of been the place where cronies of the president or the president put people who had done him well. Just -- well the man who brought you into FEMA was the chief of staff of Bush back in Texas, should FEMA, should the director of FEMA, have direct experience?
BROWN: Not necessarily. Let me explain to you why. It is just as important for the director of FEMA to be able to manage a large organization as it is to understand emergency management. I fortunately had both. I had emergency management experience and experience running a large organization. What you have to make sure is of that whoever is in that position, whether you're a strong emergency manager or strong manager, that you have people around you so the director can do the strategic kinds of things that need to be done in managing a large bureaucracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was Michael Brown.
If FEMA's dismantled as recommended, it would affect the jobs of thousands of people. Here's the raw data.
FEMA says it has more than 2,600 full-time employees in offices around the country. In addition to that, has nearly 4,000 other employees on standby in case there's a disaster.
In an Ohio courtroom, a famous forensic expert appeared today at the trial of a priest accused of killing a nun. The priest's fate may hinge on a drop of blood left on an altar cloth more than 25 years ago. It is a fascinating case. We'll have the latest.
Plus a frank admission...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my mind I was saving my race. I was saving my country from destruction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He was a Neo-Nazi hatemonger, who acted out his aggression. But what a difference a decade makes. His victim became his champion. The story when 360 continues.
COOPER: Well, the war in Iraq has brought relentless terror and carnage, of course. Also something more, insurgents are making it extremely personal, seizing any tactic to advance their agenda. They are targeting politicians' family members for gang-style assassinations. Some say it's as if relatives of America's founding fathers have been singled out for execution.
Here's CNN's Ryan Chilcote.
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A voice of defiance from Iraq's new vice president, publicly denouncing claims from Terrorist Leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi that Sunnis who join the political process are traitors and American agents. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, we were agents, but agents of Islam, and agents of the oppressed Iraqi people for whom we will defend life and future.
CHILCOTE: But in Iraq, a defiant voice is a dangerous one. And Tariq al-Hashimi's decision to break the Sunni political boycott and join public life has come with a very personal price.
Two weeks ago his brother was assassinated and today, just one day after speaking out denouncing the threats against democracy, his 60-year-old sister is shot dead.
There are plenty of suspects. But it's al-Zarqawi who the U.S. military here thinks is behind the assassination-style killings. In his latest tape, he calls all politicians, American stooges; and Iraq's democracy, a sham.
ABU MUSAB AL-ZARQAWI, LEADER, AL QAEDA IN IRAQ (through translator): They are so-called Sunnis who might tighten the noose around the necks of real Sunnis.
CHILCOTE: Shiite politicians are also paying a price. Remember the Sunni vice president's bold speech? It was made next to his Shiite counterpart. His brother was also shot dead.
(On camera): They're not alone. More than a dozen brothers, sisters, sons, even cousins of government officials have succumbed to the new Iraq's cut-throat politics.
(Voice-over): Iraq's new leaders say they are building a government that will include all of Iraq's religious and ethnic groups. But as they move toward it, their opponents appear bent on making sure they pay a personal price.
Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Baghdad.
COOPER: One of the things we're trying to do at 360 is to put headline stories into context. Tonight, as part of the effort we're introducing a new feature "Dispatches from the Edge." Think of it as passionate stories from people in places at either the edge or in the middle of the news. What better way to launch this, than offering fresh insights on the staying power of Iraq's most wanted terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Here's CNN's Nic Robertson, "Dispatches from the Edge."
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Out in the open, on the attack, promoting himself as the leader of Iraq's insurgency. That's how Jordanian Abu Musab al- Zarqawi, al Qaeda's leader in Iraq is casting himself in his new video.
It's not the way the U.S. secretary of defense in Baghdad just the day after the video was released, sees Zarqawi. Rumsfeld has called Zarqawi a dead-ender, a foreigner in Iraq with no real support.
But that it seems is a false hope. Zarqawi is not only powerful, he is gaining strength and influence among Iraq's Sunnis, the force behind the insurgency.
According to this, formerly powerful tribal leader from Iraq's western Al Anbar province.
SHEIK ZEIDAN, IRAQI TRIBAL LEADER (through translator): Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is their only leader, the only one providing them protection, he says. So he is now the leader of the Sunnis.
ROBERTSON: American soldiers forced Sheik Zeidan to leave Iraq, he says, forced him to abandon his tribe. He believes Americans don't understand the importance of the tribes.
From day one, the Americans betrayed us. As the chief of tribes, I will tell you, he says. And in our turn we betrayed our people, even ourselves. They created a vacuum where everyone can come and take over. And that's what happened.
While the once-powerful Zeidan is now in exile in Jordan, Zarqawi has now supplanted him as the man in charge.
RET. GENERAL ALI SHUKRI, ADVISOR TO JORDANIAN KING HUSSEIN: Some of my tribal friends are telling me that practically al-Zarqawi has become more powerful in the tradition of tribal areas of western Iraq than the actual historical leaders over there. This is -- this is bad.
ROBERTSON: Retired Jordanian General Ali Shukri says, in this part of the world, without tribes, you can't govern.
SHUKRI: Historically, these people have kept the peace of the west, western part of Iraq.
ROBERTSON: When a Shiite shrine in Samarra was bombed in February, Sunnis, who feared civil war, turned to Zarqawi for protection.
If there was a gap between the Sunnis and Zarqawi before Samarra, he says, this brought it together. The gap was completely brought together.
Where a year ago Zeidan was optimistic Sunni tribes could defeat Zarqawi and stop his murderous drive for civil war, now he's not sure.
(On camera): Zarqawi has made it his goal to push the country to civil war. Iraq's Sunni tribes may yet be the best hope of holding him back.
Nick Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Well, more trouble for the prosecution. The trial of a priest accused of murdering a nun. The forensic scientist who helped O.J. Simpson, testified today. What Henry Lee found.
Also tonight, a Neo-Nazi skinhead looking for someone to attack. He found his victim, who in turn showed him the light. When 360 continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the altar cloth is draped over her right arm and folded here, all of the puncture defects line up and in this position...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That courtroom scene was played out this week in Ohio, where prosecutors say a priest killed a nun. The priest is on trial for the ritualistic murder. It's a case that's getting stranger by the day. And once again the focus fell on the blood evidence. Today a familiar face to televised courtroom cases took the stand.
CNN's Gary Tuchman reports.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the O.J. Simpson trial, he was a big gun for the defense. In this trial now, he's a big gun for the prosecution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you state your name for the record.
HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Henry C. Lee. L-E-E.
TUCHMAN: Dr. Henry Lee testified Thursday that a bloody stain on an altar cloth might link a priest to the murder of a nun more than a quarter century ago.
LEE: So the size is similar, the shape is similar, the diameter is similar. All I can conclude, is similar to.
TUCHMAN: The pattern of the stain, says Dr. Lee, closely resembles a medallion on Father Gerald Robinson's letter opener, which prosecutors say the priest used to kill Sister Margaret Ann Paul. The letter opener was found in the priest's desk drawer shortly after the nun's murder.
The nun's body found with her underwear pulled down, though she was not sexually assaulted. There were candles around her, the scene that many say suggested a ritualistic or satanic killing.
There has been DNA testing in the case, but today a DNA expert did not help the prosecution when she said genetic material found on the nun's fingernails did come from a man, but not Robinson. A defense attorney wanted to emphasize that to the jury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You had enough to exclude him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, DNA EXPERT: Yes, there was enough to form a conclusion.
TUCHMAN: The defense wants the jury to believe the DNA came from the murderer, but prosecutors say DNA could have come from anyone who sneezed, breathed or touched the victim's body before or after the killing.
Father Robinson presided over Sister Paul's funeral back in 1980. Prosecutors have not yet said why he would have wanted to kill her.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, New York.
COOPER: Well, the prosecution doesn't need a motive to prove the priest killed a nun, it needs evidence. And the defense insists it has little to go on. We'll take up the case with "COURT TV's" Lisa Bloom and Jami Floyd, when we return.
Also tonight, enemy to friend. How a chance encounter between a skinhead and the man he left for dead changed both their lives, when 360 continues.
COOPER: In Ohio, Roman Catholic Priest Reverend Gerald Robinson sits in courtroom, charged with murder. His victim, prosecutors say, was an elderly nun, and her body discovered in a hospital chapel surrounded by candles. She had a dozens of cross-like stab wounds, and bloody altar cloth was found nearby.
The crime happened 26 years ago. And there were no witnesses, no confession. This case is built entirely on circumstantial evidence.
Earlier I spoke to "COURT TV" Anchors Lisa Bloom and Jami Floyd about it.
COOPER: Lisa, there are so many strange details in this case. What do you make of it? I mean, what is going on?
BLOOM: Yes, we have a nun who was stabbed across the heart, with an inverted cross pattern through an altar cloth. She was left naked, exposed in a very stiff, straight position. It's a brutal, horrible crime. And the prosecutors in the case are trying to link this killing to a letter opener that was found in a drawer in the priest's rooms. They've got to make two links -- to the murder weapon, and then this murder weapon to the priest. That's what they've been working on so far. COOPER: And Jami, I mean, that's really what they were trying to do today with Henry Lee on the stand. He compares this -- there was a medallion on this letter opener, I guess of the U.S. capitol...
COOPER: ...and it appears to be very similar to some bloodstains?
FLOYD: Well, they're trying to establish transfer evidence. That if you look at the bloodstain and you look at this very unique medallion, because the wax museum from which it came no longer exists and they can't even find a replica. So Henry Lee wants the jury to believe that if you look at the two, the bloodstain and the medallion, you can see that transfer implant.
But that is the closest they've gotten, I think, really to solid evidence in the case. Lisa's right, they then have to make the connection to the defendant and the defendant to the crime scene.
COOPER: And the defense has been able to say, kind of poke holes in them because there was a scissors missing as well.
FLOYD: That's right.
BLOOM: Right. There were a pair of scissors that are missing. The defense says the scissors could have made the bloodstain pattern that the prosecution is relying on.
COOPER: Because the nun apparently had the pair of scissors that day. They've never been able to find them.
BLOOM: Well, exactly. But they do have an identical pair from that chapel area that they've been able to use to do tests, and say, well hey, they make some similar blood patterns too. And, of course, if they can't show that this letter opener is the murder weapon, they probably can't get a conviction against this priest.
FLOYD: I mean, what they've been able to do, Anderson, in that courtroom, is demonstrate for the jury how dramatic the case is, the inverted cross, and...
COOPER: Which they believe the cross was actually made with a template, that somebody put a crucifix on this nun...
FLOYD: That's right.
COOPER: ... and basically stabbed around.
FLOYD: Through the altar cloth, which makes it even more dramatic. But nobody's disputing any of those facts. The defense isn't disputing that she was brutally murdered in this ritualistic way. The question is, was it this defendant?
COOPER: You think the prosecution has a real problem with their case. FLOYD: I think it's a nice circumstantial case, but I don't think it's strong enough to convict this man. It wasn't 26 years ago. It isn't now. There have been evolutions in this sort of loose science of blood transfer and blood spatter, but it's not enough. It's not conclusive. They can't say, yes, in fact this medallion made the imprint on the altar cloth.
COOPER: And Lisa, they've also taken fingernail clippings from the nun and there's other -- someone else's DNA there.
BLOOM: Right, but that's very typical. You know, she worked in a hospital as a nurse, among other things. So it would make sense there might be other DNA under her fingernails. But you know, Anderson, there's one non-forensic piece of evidence that's very intriguing in this case, and that's when back in 1980 they went to this priest to ask him questions. He said I took a confession from the killer. I know who did it, but I'm not telling. Well, shortly after that, he changed his story and he said, that's a lie. Now why would an innocent person say that? I think that's made investigators suspicious ever since.
FLOYD: Because he's nervous and he's under stress. Why do people confess to crimes they didn't commit?
BLOOM: He's nervous and under stress, so he says the real killer confessed to me, oops, never mind, that's a lie?
FLOYD: You know, there's always the chance...
BLOOM: That's an odd thing to say.
FLOYD: There's always the chance the real killer did confess to him. He's a priest.
COOPER: But then he backed off it and said it's...
BLOOM: Well, he lied at one point...
FLOYD: In an effort to protect the real killer.
BLOOM: No, but he wouldn't have to disclose. He would have priest penitent privilege. He would never have to disclose that if had in fact happened.
FLOYD: Nor does he now. I think that they had a weak case then. That fact has not changed in 26 years. That fact was the same 26 years ago. And not much has changed except, essentially, the politics of putting a priest on trial. Now it's a lot more acceptable.
COOPER: How much more of this trial is there?
BLOOM: Probably another few weeks, don't you think? And the defense hasn't even started yet.
COOPER: Unbelievable. Thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it, Jami Floyd, Lisa Bloom. BLOOM: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: And now Erica Hill, from "HEADLINE NEWS," with some of the business stories we're following -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Anderson.
Stocks moving higher today on Wall Street. The Dow closed up 28 points, the NASDAQ rose 11, the S&P added four. And analysts says investors liked the testimony on Capitol Hill today from Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, who said a pause in interest rate hikes just may be ahead.
Meantime, a few losses, as well, to report. Shares of Microsoft falling more than 6 percent in late trading, after the company announced its quarterly income. The software maker reporting earnings of nearly $3 billion. Which is up 16 percent, but is still less than Wall Street was expecting.
And on his second day of cross-examination, Former Enron CEO Kenneth Lay blamed the collapse of his energy company on short selling vultures and vicious articles in the "Wall Street Journal." He is on trial for fraud. Yesterday, kept jurors on their seats with his heated exchanges with the prosecutor. And under questioning today, Lay said there is nothing left of the hundreds of millions of dollars he made during his career -- Anderson
COOPER: Erica, stick around, because it's time for the shot.
COOPER: It's our favorite photo or piece of video of the day. Tonight's shot is an encore performance of everyone's favorite karate chopping chimp. We loved it so much, we brought it back. Yes, it's the karate chimp. Video's making the round across the Internet. As for the primate kung fu master? Don't really know too much about him, what belt he has -- he's wearing black belt. Don't know if that's real. And that -- so I'm told by Gabe, the sensei over here on 360, that he's demonstrating the roundhouse kick. Yes. Not that, I guess. That's something else, but there you go.
HILL: Good stuff. He learned it all from you, right?
COOPER: Oh, yes, yes. Erica, thank you.
I want to turn to a serious and really a very surprising story. A runaway living on the streets and the Neo-Nazi that left him for dead. They were brought together by hate. They are sitting side by side as friends now. We'll tell you why. 360, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: It is a sad fact, but every year there are thousands of hate crimes committed in America. This week alone, two white suspects in Texas are under arrest for allegedly beating a Hispanic teenager, leaving him for dead after he tried kiss a young girl. Investigators say the suspects hurled racial slurs at young man.
As that case makes its way through the courts, we want to tell you about the unlikely ending of another attack. This one by a Neo- Nazi that led to redemption, forgiveness and even friendship.
CNN's Dan Simon reports.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hail victory.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cross burnings and swastikas, symbols of hate that had once defined Tim Zall (ph).
TIM ZALL (ph), FORMER NEO-NAZI: In my mind I was saving my race. I was saving my country from destruction.
SIMON: Tim is a former Neo-Nazi skinhead, who served time in prison for committing a hate crime, beating an Iranian couple he had mistaken for Jews. His enemy list was long.
(On camera): You were targeting African-Americans.
ZALL: The perceived enemy. Whoever that enemy was.
SIMON (voice-over): Matthew Bojer (ph) would have made that list. As a 14-year-old gay runway, he would not have wanted to cross paths with Tim.
MATTHEW BOJER (ph): The hard core part of it is that I would be going through trash cans, just as any other homeless person or a kid living on the streets, trying to survive and not end up statistic, not end up dead on the streets.
SIMON: That they are now sitting together is one thing. That they are now good friends is something more.
(On camera): This story begins in 1981, Matthew says he used to hang out with some friends at an old fast-food place in west Hollywood. One night he saw a group of teens clearly looking for trouble. Matthew says the next thing he knew, he was laying in his own blood after being beaten, kicked and knocked unconscious.
BOJER: This is where it -- the actual incident took place.
I just remember a few of them yelling the words to get the faggots. Let's just get the faggots. SIMON: There is no official record of the incident. Matthew feared a call to the police or hospital would land him in foster care. But apparently there was a witness.
ZALL: I remember maybe looks of fear.
SIMON: Tim Zall says that was the area where he used to troll, attacking people like Matthew just for being gay.
ZALL: It's like being intoxicated with rage.
SIMON: He says there were so many attacks, so many victims, his doesn't remember faces. But does believe he took part in beating up Matthew.
Matthew remembers Tim being there.
SIMON (on camera): Is there any doubt whatsoever that Tim is the guy who beat you?
BOJER: There's no doubt. On either side of us, there's no doubt, absolutely.
SIMON: Matthew says that beating left him traumatized for years, afraid of being in public places, afraid even of going to the movies.
(Voice-over): Tim Zall eventually became a leading member of the National White Aryan Resistance Group, and a disciple of Tom Metzger (ph), a former wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are reached Aryan Update, a production of war.
SIMON: But then, about 10 years ago, Tim says an incident in a grocery store with his then 2-1/2-year-old son made him start questioning his racist beliefs.
ZALL: He actually pointed out an African-American gentleman and said the "N" word, expecting a cookie, some sort of positive reinforcement.
SIMON: As people looked on with scorn and disbelief, Tim felt embarrassed and ashamed. Over time, he says he became remorseful -- so much so, he decided a couple years later to dedicate his life to abolishing hate. And that's what led Tim and Matthew to meet again.
(On camera): It was here at Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. Matthew was organizing a high school talk on hate about a year ago, and heard about a former skinhead named Tim who connected well with audiences. Then, over lunch while talking about their life experiences, Matthew realized he knew Tim's face.
What went through your mind when you realized that this was the guy who caused you so much pain?
BOJER: Well, interestingly enough, we're sitting in the Museum of Tolerance. I was like, OK, what do I do with this? I mean, I was in shock.
ZALL: I think we both kind of reflected on it for maybe a couple weeks.
SIMON (voice-over): Matthew realized he didn't feel angry; instead, he felt inspired. He and Tim realized their connection could have an impact on others.
BOGER: When you look at a person, it is a human being you are looking at.
SIMON: On this day to students at the museum...
ZALL: I did have a lot of anger towards society in general.
SIMON: Tim and Matthew now speak to audiences together. They're a powerful combination.
BOJER: You have the perpetrator, you have the victim, it's unusual. It's a rare story.
SIMON: A story of how one bad night ended up showing the way towards something good.
Dan Simon, CNN, Los Angeles.
COOPER: Pretty amazing. More of 360 in a moment. Stay with us.
COOPER: Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," we've all seen images of the destruction caused by Katrina in New Orleans, of course. Houses crumbled like accordions and backyards that resemble landfills. But there are bright spots not far from all the chaos. This week, some of the world's best golfers are competing in the Zurich Classic of New Orleans at English Turn. It's a competition pros like David Toms say, that needed to go on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID TOMS, GOLFER: This golf tournament, hopefully we can get some people out here this week and, you know, to watch them hit some -- watch guys hit good golf shots, bring some joy maybe back to their life a little bit, get them excited to go outside and take part in the recreation and try to forget their troubles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You can hear more from Louisiana Native David Toms, and why he thinks this weekend's golf tournament is so important to New Orleans and the people who live there. That is tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," starting, of course, at 6:00 a.m., Eastern time.
And that is it for us tonight, we'll be in California tomorrow, in San Diego, on the border.
"LARRY KING" is coming up next, with some amazing stories of survival.
Thanks very much for watching 360. See you tomorrow from San Diego.
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