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Pope Undergoes Surgery; Life-or-Death Decision in Terri Schiavo Case

Aired February 24, 2005 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
More than one billion people around the world are praying for the leader of their church. You're now looking at a live picture of the hospital where the pope is being treated in Rome. He is on a respirator tonight. He was rushed there earlier today, just 13 days after he was hospitalized with the flu. The Vatican says a relapse sent him back.

This time, a tracheotomy was performed. It took doctors about 30 minutes to insert a tube into his windpipe to help him breathe. The Vatican seems to downplay the situation, but John Paul II is 84 years old and he has been very frail for weeks.

Joining me now from Rome, CNN's Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher.

Delia, what is the Vatican telling you about his prognosis?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you say, they're keeping it very private at the moment, Paula.

We haven't had many updates since the last time the pope's spokesman came out to tell us that the operation was successful. Then we heard Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's undersecretary saying that the pope was serene. So, we have just had these little bits of information, but we don't have any prognosis as of yet.

And I think the Vatican themselves are waiting to see how this plays out in the next few days. You know, we have to see the pope coming out from this anesthesia, see him resting, and see what's going to happen in the next few days, Paula, before there can be a real prognosis given in this situation.

ZAHN: I do know that you have had the opportunity to be able to talk to doctors. And, obviously, the speculation is rampant. But is there a possibility that he can breathe again without a respirator, or we just simply don't know that?

GALLAGHER: Well, we don't it at the moment. And that is obviously one of the major concerns.

He was able to breathe again after his last visit to the hospital, but, of course, this time he's had a tracheotomy. So we'll have to see if he's got to go back in for even possibly more tracheotomies. It's something that we just can't determine at this moment, because it's really too early to tell.

But the hope is, obviously, that he's going to get back to the Vatican as quickly as possible. That's certainly his desire. We heard from the undersecretary earlier saying that he -- the pope was gesticulating to the doctors and making some movements to say that he wanted to get out. And the doctors had to remind him that he should not be speaking and he has to try to relax.

So, you see this battle of wills with the pope all the time. He tries to get back into the swing of things. And that's probably one of the reasons why he was back in the hospital today, because, after his last visit, he tried to get back into the Vatican and into his working schedule too soon.

ZAHN: What is the Vatican policy, though, if he were to become incapacitated?

GALLAGHER: Well, there is no policy as such. In fact, it's one of the big open questions at the moment here. What does one do in the case of an incapacitated pope?

You know, a lot of people talk about whether the pope should resign and so on. But, if the pope becomes incapacitated -- and, here, we're talking about mental incapacitation, because of course we see that physically he is severely limited, but mentally he's still alert.

However, the possibility for mental incapacitation is one that the Vatican has to take into consideration at this time. And it's a new one for them. So, there is no procedure set out by the church at the moment for that. Now, when a bishop becomes mentally incapacitated, he can be removed. But that assumes that the pope can authorize that. But, with the pope, the problem, Paula, is that there is nobody to authorize it. There's nobody higher than the pope. So that's a big open question right now here at the Vatican.

ZAHN: And the pope's status tonight raising an awful lot of questions we wish we could answer for you.

But, Delia Gallagher, you did a good job for putting this all into perspective for us this evening. Thanks so much.

For more than a quarter century now, Pope John Paul II has been one of the most prominent people in the news. The focus of religion is often on the next world.

Jim Bittermann has a look at his remarkable impact on this one.


JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When he returned to his hometown of Wadowice, Poland, in 1989, some with him could only wonder at how it came to pass that a young man from this small, grimy industrial town, first under the jackboot of Nazis and later under the control of communists, could have risen above it all to become the leader of the world's largest and oldest religious institution. The circumstances leading up to his election were highly unusual.

FATHER THOMAS REESE, CNN PAPAL ANALYST: Nineteen seventy-eight, of course, is the year of three popes. We had Paul VI as pope. And when he died, the cardinals elected John Paul I. And they didn't realize that he was really a very sick man and he died within a month of being pope.

And then the College of Cardinals turned to this surprising election of a Polish cardinal.

BITTERMANN: With a white puff of smoke, that surprising choice of a new pope was announced on an October evening in 1978. And, yet when he stepped out on the balcony of Saint Peter's Basilica, Karol Wojtyla seemed to be at the right spot at the right time. Few outside church circles even recognized his name or knew anything about him.

The newly elected pope was an unusual and inspired choice. He became the first non-Italian chosen in over 450 years.

MARCO POLITI, AUTHOR, "HIS HOLINESS": Karol Wojtyla was elected especially because the archbishop and cardinal of Vienna, Franz Koenig, was pushing for a great change, to have a pope which didn't come from the Roman bureaucracy.

BITTERMANN: John Paul II, with his background in philosophy and activism against fascism and communism, brought a new way of thinking to the papacy.

REESE: John Paul II certainly changed the way in which the papacy is done in the Catholic Church today. His travels, first of all, were extraordinary. He spent about a third of his time outside of Rome.

BITTERMANN: One of his first trips as pope was back to his native Poland, where he urged his countrymen to be strong and stand up for moral order.

POLITI: His first speech in Victory Square was clearly aimed to show that Christ was an open book for the future. It was not a matter of the past.

BITTERMANN: Many saw an immediate change among Poles, a change which would spell the beginning of the end of communism.

WILTON WYNN, AUTHOR, "KEEPER OF THE KEYS": All of a sudden they realized they had power. They had been subdued and they had been submissive, but, all of a sudden, they realized they could challenge the regime and get away with it. As on bishop said, a Polish bishop said to me then, they crossed the threshold of fear.

BITTERMANN: Less than two years later, Poland was on strike. And for the rest of the decade, under the guiding hand of the pope, the Vatican would play a subtle, but certain role keeping unrest smoldering in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe and not-so-subtly warning the Soviet Union. WYNN: One the Poles got away with it, all of the rest of the satellites realized they could do it, too, and one by one the dominoes fell.

BITTERMANN: Many believe the pope's faith was such a threat to communist, Moscow tried to assassinate him. He very nearly died after Turkish gunman Ali Agca fired from the crowds in Saint Peter's Square on a sunny May afternoon in 1981.

ALI AGCA, GUNMAN: I am Jesus Christ. In this generation, all the world will be destroyed.

BITTERMANN: It took the pope months to recover. Agca came to trial and said he was hired by Bulgarian secret agents. It was a conspiracy the prosecutor could never prove.

And, later, the pope went to Agca's jail cell to forgive the man who tried to kill him. "What we said to each other is a secret between him and me," the pope told reporters. "I spoke to him as I would speak to a brother whom I've forgiven and who enjoys my confidence."

Confidential dialogue between individuals and between countries was a mainstay of John Paul II's papacy.

REESE: Whenever he could do that, he offered his services and tried to help bring people together to avoid war.


ZAHN: That was Jim Bittermann reporting for us, again.

The Vatican saying tonight the pope is fine, tranquil, doing well. Please stay with CNN throughout the night. We'll be keeping a very close eye on the pope's condition. We'll be bringing you the very latest as it becomes available.

Moving on now, an agonizing decision, life or death, is coming up tomorrow in Florida. If Terri Schiavo's feeding tube is taken away, will she feel any pain?


BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: If you did that to a dog, they would put you away for it. My God, what would happen to you if you tried it with an animal. And yet they are going to do that to my daughter.


ZAHN: Next, her parents and a woman who knows exactly what it's like to have a feeding tube taken out.


MATTHEWS: Tomorrow, exactly 15 years after a Florida woman lapsed into a coma, a judge will decide, should Terri Schiavo be kept alive or allowed to die? She has been at the center of a long and very bitter legal battle involving her parents, her husband and even the governor of her state.


ZAHN (voice-over): For the past 15 years, Terri Schiavo has been in what some doctors call a persistent vegetative state, breathing on her own, but relying on a feeding tube to stay alive.

These are the last images of her to be made public. At the age of 26, she suffered permanent brain damage, the result of sudden heart failure. Court-appointed physicians reported her chances of meaningful neurologic recover to be virtually nonexistent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri, can you look at me?

ZAHN: But that diagnosis has ignited a legal firestorm.

DR. WILLIAM MAXFIELD, RADIOLOGIST: There's a significant probability that she would improve.

DR. MELVIN GREER, NEUROLOGIST: There is no treatment available that can help this unfortunate young woman.

ZAHN: Part of the debate is concern about misdiagnosis. Studies have shown the condition known as persistent vegetative state is wrongly diagnosed up to 40 percent of the time. Terri's once close family is now bitterly divided over her chances of recovery.

(on camera): What do you think she understands?

MARY SCHINDLER, MOTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Every time she hears my voice, I know she knows who I am, because when I say it's mommy, she starts laughing and she starts trying to make vocal sounds.

Hi. You look so pretty.

MICHAEL SCHIAVO, HUSBAND OF TERRI SCHIAVO: She recognizes nobody. She has no brain left, basically.

ZAHN: As Terri's legal guardian, her husband, Michael, has the right to end her life, since she never put her wishes in writing. If her feeding tube is removed, it could take as long as two weeks for her to die.

(on camera): It seems to me that you're greatly concerned about how she will suffer in that process.

B. SCHINDLER: Just it's unconscionable, what's going on. It's beyond belief, because if you did that to a dog, they would put you away for it. My God, what would happen to you if you tried it with an animal. And yet they are going to do that to my daughter.

ZAHN: Kate Adamson knows firsthand what Terri might endure.

KATE ADAMSON, AUTHOR, "KATE'S JOURNEY": The stomach pains, the hunger pains overrode any other thought that I had.

ZAHN: After suffering a massive stroke at the age of 33, Kate was thought to be in a persistent vegetative state. She remembers what it felt like to be a prisoner of her own body.

ADAMSOM: Terrifying, totally devastating. I was isolated, lonely. I wanted to scream out, I'm in here. I'm alive. Can't you hear me?

ZAHN: As part of her treatment, she was disconnected from a feeding tube for nine days. First, there was dehydration.

ADAMSOM: I craved green Gatorade, of all things, and I don't even like Gatorade.

ZAHN: And then the hunger pains.

ADAMSOM: I'm screaming inside my body, feed me. Will you please just feed me something? But don't starve me.

ZAHN: Kate believes that, if Terri is aware and her feeding tube is pulled, her parents have reason to worry.

ADAMSOM: This isn't something that's peaceful and comfortable to be in that position. It's painful. You know, I can't think of any other worse way to die, being starved to death.

ZAHN: But, still, Terri's parents are encouraged by the miraculous recovery of Sarah Scantlin, who woke up out of a coma after 20 years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you tell me when I leave?




ZAHN (on camera): When you heard that story, what went through your mind?

M. SCHINDLER: I was really excited, because with Sarah talking and a new test for the brain waves, maybe she could, you know, talk like Sarah's talking.

ZAHN: The new tests come from a groundbreaking study, which shows more brain activity in minimally conscious patients than previously believed.

DR. ZACHARY LEVINE, NEUROSURGEON: These minimally conscious patients actually do respond to their environment. It's clearly a sign of, it's not just a brain stem that's functioning. The higher parts, the thinking parts, the personality parts of the brain are actually functioning even in a comatose state.

ZAHN: And that, the Schindlers say, is why they're fighting so desperately to keep Terri alive.

B. SCHINDLER: We want her to have that test. She deserves it. She's entitled to it, and that will measure her brain waves and prove once and for all that she's not in a persistent vegetative state, she's not in a coma and that she just needs therapy.

ZAHN: Terri's husband, however, insists that his in-laws are clinging to hope.

SCHIAVO: There's nothing out there that's going to help Terri. If there was, then every person in a vegetative state in this country wouldn't be in one.

ZAHN: Do you really think you know Terri's wishes better than her husband's?

M. SCHINDLER: Michael lived with my daughter for five years. I've known my daughter all her life, and Terri is not the type of person that would say anything like that. I know her.


ZAHN: A heartbreaking story all the way around. We will know the judge's decision at 5:00 p.m. Eastern time tomorrow.

And if you'd like to know more about Kate Adamson's ordeal and her remarkable recovery, she has written a book called "Kate's Journey."

You know the old saying, it's a tough job but someone has to do it? Here's one that really is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police, open the door! If you don't open the door, it's coming down!


ZAHN: Hunting dangerous fugitives, breaking those doors down, for these guys, it's all in a day's work.

Stay with us.


ZAHN: So you hear U.S. Marshal and you probably think Old West. But the truth is, the Marshal Service, a force of some 4,200, protects judges and witnesses and captures more federal fugitives than any other agency, 55 percent of them just last year. And led by the U.S. Marshals, the Great Lakes Regional Task Force leads the nation in fugitive arrests.

Kelli Arena of our CNN America bureau takes us inside their very dangerous job.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's get everybody around.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's 4:00 a.m. on a biting cold Chicago morning, a good time to catch bad guys off guard. These fugitive hunters are among the best in the business, and CNN got a rare front-row view.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, the first place we're going, guys, we're going to hit two houses at once.

ARENA: These men and women arrest as many as 500 violent offenders a month, drug dealers, bank robbers and worse. This morning, they're after a prisoner who escaped from a work release program.

For now, this neighborhood is quiet. Chances for a fight drop of dramatically if the bad guys are woken out of a sound sleep. Still, going into someone's home without knowing what's inside is dangerous work. U.S. marshal John Ambrose brings along a little extra help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got tools, tools coming up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open the door now or we're breaking it down!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open it now, man, or it's coming down.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it. It's over.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the ground, man. You get on the ground like I told you.

ARENA: The tip that led them here is only hours old, but it's stale. They miss their man.

ED FARRELL, U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE: Nobody knows nothing. I'm shocked.

ARENA: That's Ed Farrell. He's fast-tracked, a marshal for only eight years and already one of just 18 inspectors nationwide. Part of his job is to get some dirt from people on the scene and to work informants.

FARRELL: This job, we're in the information business. It comes down to people skills. If you're going to be successful at this job, you got to have people skills.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just got hookup, James (ph). So, bring him in.


ARENA: His buddy John Ambrose says you either have what it takes or not. It's in his blood. Born and raised on the South Side of Chicago, Ambrose comes from a long line of police officers.

AMBROSE: Who's got the back?

ARENA: His dad was an award-winning cop, that is, until he and nine others were convicted of taking money from drug dealers to look the other way. He died of a heart attack a year into his sentence. Ambrose and a lot of others say his dad was wrongly accused. Still, Ambrose serves the government with a vengeance, the same government that imprisoned his father.

AMBROSE: I think sometimes, when I get frustrated, take an extra second or two to think about something or look at a case. And, as corny as it may sound, I feel like may -- he's nudging me in a direction or opens my eyes to something.

ARENA: The team is juiced about another target, an alleged child rapist. As they get close to the scene, they're briefed by another marshal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's been molesting his stepdaughter since she was 4 or 5 and raping her since she was about 8. The reason they found out was because she just got pregnant.

ARENA: The fugitive is staying with family, including his little niece.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police. Open up the door. Open the door right now.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open the door right now. Open the door right now.

Get on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get his arm. Get on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.

ARENA: It's the kind of case that gets under everyone's skin.

SHANNON METZGER, U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE: It really is mind- boggling that people would keep a child in the house and they know what he's wanted for. It's a shame.

ARENA: Shannon Metzger is the only female marshal permanently assigned to a regional fugitive task force in the country and the mother of a 3-year-old girl. She's a former West Pointer and a track star who should never be under estimated.

METZGER: When I'm covering the back of the house and the guy jumps out, chances are, he isn't going to take pity on me because I'm a female. He's going to maybe even take me on harder because he thinks he can. And when he does, he's in for a rude awakening.

ARENA: This team does nothing but hunt fugitives 24/7. They're available to help the 10 state and local agencies who contribute members of the force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last cameraman that did that had his nose bit off.

ARENA: The work is rewarding and draining.



DEWALT: What (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you coming home late for? What's so important that you couldn't get home on time?

ARENA: Sarah Dewalt is a corrections officer assigned to the task force. With 34 years under her belt, she says she's tough, but fair. Some time ago, she helped this woman with a parole violation so she wouldn't go back to jail so she could stay home and raise her kids.

DEWALT: I believed her before and went to bat for her on paper. Now, today, I'm right back in the same (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shape for the same (EXPLETIVE DELETED) She made a fool out of me. That's a no- no. Nobody plays me, not where I put my neck out because of your babies.

ARENA: There's no time for emotion. The hunt never ends. They want to pay a call at an accused drug dealer accused of selling crack to undercover officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police. Open the door. If you don't open the door, it's coming down. It's your last chance to take the door.

ARENA: This time, they get their man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not guilty.

ARENA: And several thousand dollars in cash.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's dope money right there.

ARENA: A lot of work goes into a night like this, but these guys make it look easily. Task leader Geoff Shank says that's the way it should be.

GEOFF SHANK, U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE: Our closure rate is 92 percent. So, the odds are, if we're going to look for you, you're going to jail. You might as -- just give yourself up.

ARENA: By the time most other citizens are on the way to work, the Great Lakes Regional Task Force is just about wrapping up for the day.


ZAHN: Wow, brave women and men.

Here's something you might not know about these forces. George Washington appointed the first 13 marshals back in 1789.

Moving on to a different subject now, our special on breast cancer survivors got an incredible response, so we want to bring you another survivor story.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kristi left me a voice mail and she said, Cyn, we have something in common. Call me back.


ZAHN: A family's common bond and a story of uncommon courage next.


ZAHN: About 40,000 Americans will die from breast cancer this year. Progress in fighting the disease comes in small steps. And this week, a study by Yale researchers gives doctors some clues on how to treat one form of the disease that often never moves beyond the milk ducts, except sometimes it does spread and turns very deadly.

Tens of thousands of families watch closely for developments like this, including the family you're about to meet, five sisters who are fighting to conquer breast cancer together. Here's medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.


ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're a tight-knit family, five sisters, five very different personalities. The oldest, Wendy, the protector. Cindy, well, let's just say she's the free spirit. Kristi, the tomboy. Tammy, the shy one. And Jennifer, the baby. Held together by their parents, Don and Shelby (ph) Kimball. A large family about to be tested.

Cindy would be the first.

CINDY KIMBALL: The biopsy came back and, sure enough, it was cancer. I remember being hysterical, and thinking, I just turned 31, and not so much why me, but I'm so young.

COHEN (on camera): Do you remember calling your parents?

C. KIMBALL: I said I was diagnosed with cancer, and I don't think I was able to talk after that.

COHEN: Cindy had been married only six months. Her husband was a U.S. Army staff sergeant stationed in Okinawa, Japan, nearly 8,000 miles from home. For the first time in her life, Cindy felt alone.

She says shortly after she was diagnosed, her husband left her.

But she would have to put that pain behind her to fight the toughest battle of her life. She flew home from Japan to seek treatment and be with her family.

Her sister Kristi remembers.

KRISTI KIMBALL: I wanted to do anything possible and the whole family, just to support her and get her through it, and get her the best care possible.

And then when she was done, that was it. I thought, OK, well, we're done with this.

C. KIMBALL: We're done.

K. KIMBALL: It's not going to affect anybody else.

COHEN: Kristi was wrong.

K. KIMBALL: I felt a little lump. The mammogram didn't show anything. We did an ultrasound. It did show, and actually my -- the best specialist in New York felt another. She said, let's do a surgical biopsy, just because of your history. So a week later she sat me down and said it was cancerous. And I just started to cry.

COHEN: With two sisters, two cases of breast cancer, the Kimballs began to look for some kind of connection, for a link.

C. KIMBALL: Kristi left me a voicemail, and she said, "Cyn, we have something in common. Call me back." So, I'm thinking, OK, we like the same kind of candy bar, or this new kind of running shoes. We like the same kind of running shoes.

And I call her back and she tells me she has cancer.

COHEN: And the sisters had something else in common. Kristi's long-time boyfriend and the father of their 3-year-old son Christian says they were having problems even before she became ill, but then...

K. KIMBALL: Christian's father chose to turn around and walk away, and that hurt so badly, to go home and have all the doors, the locks changed to your house and your boxes and your personal items, you know, out on the porch.

COHEN: In the midst of so much pain, the family came together as it always had. That would help, because more adversity lay ahead.

This time, for Wendy.

WENDY KIMBALL: I knew the second I felt it, telling my parents and my sisters was the hardest. I was thinking of it from a mother's point of view, how would my parents, how would I feel if all my children had cancer, or, you know, one by one were getting cancer. COHEN: Now the family had three sisters who were diagnosed with breast cancer in their 30s.

Why them? The Kimballs wanted answers, and they wanted them right away.

Kristi, the nurse in the family, knew where to turn. While at school, she studied under Dr. Eric Weiner, then the head of the breast cancer program at Duke University Medical Center. He advised, treated and consoled the sisters day and night. He became the family's angel.

Dr. Weiner knew these three cases were more than a coincidence. He advised genetic testing for all five sisters, including Tammy and Jennifer, who were cancer-free.

K. KIMBALL: I pretty much knew that I did have it.

COHEN: The testing showed all five sisters carried a mutation of the breast cancer gene called BRCA-1. It also showed they inherited it from their father.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They could blame us, especially me. Came from my side of the family, but they don't. I mean, they're strong. They almost -- probably doesn't sound right, but they almost make light of it. OK, we've got this. Let's deal with it.

K. KIMBALL: Towards the end of the treatments, I would get really sick. And I just remember him holding the basin as I am getting sick to my stomach, and he would wipe my mouth and he would just pat my back and tell me I would be OK, and it will be over in just a little bit. And he would sit there and hold my hand, and just go through it with me.

COHEN: And now Jennifer and Tammy, the sisters who didn't have cancer, had a tough decision to make. Having the defective gene meant they had between a 50 and 80 percent chance of getting breast cancer. Should they have their healthy breasts removed? And should they also have their ovaries removed, since having the gene increases the chance of ovarian cancer? Tammy decided yes.

(on camera): Was that a tough decision?

TAMMY KIMBALL: It was for me. And then again, it was in a way, because it takes part of your womanhood away. For me, it did. It is, making this decision. But then again, I have two kids, and I want to be here. So if I can do something to prevent it, shoot, let's do it.

COHEN (voice-over): The decision was more complicated for Jennifer. She's 34 and just got married last July. She and her new husband David plan to have children and then she, too, will have the surgery.

JENNIFER KIMBALL: We definitely want to have our family, but I've talked to Dr. Weiner, probably down the road, five years, I mean, my early 40s, so I'll have more aggressive measures taken, mastectomy, hysterectomy. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are here to help you, so give us a call.

COHEN: The Kimballs have turned their pain into activism. They started a foundation to raise awareness of the importance of genetic testing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breast cancer is not a death sentence. I think it's very scary. Any cancer, any patient that hears the word cancer, you think, oh, my goodness. But there's so many treatments out there now, and there's so much research going on that it's not like it used to be.

COHEN: And finally, some good news. The five Kimball sisters are doing just fine.

Cindy remarried in 1998. She has a new family, with her husband and his two children. Kristi and her 9-year-old son Christian have moved back to Florida to live with her parents.

The Kimballs are a tight-knit family, and all this adversity has made them understand how important they all are to each other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our father, he would say family is all that you have.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Family takes care of family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I think that this has brought us closer. We always say, I love you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Makes you more appreciative of what you have and not what you don't have.


ZAHN: What a beautiful and strong family. We saw what genetic testing did for the Kimball family. What would you tell women out there who have a history of breast cancer in the family, when it comes to genetic testing?

COHEN: You have to decide if genetic testing is really right for you. It was right for this family. They chose to do it. It's not right for everyone.

What you have to do is you have to go to your doctor. And you want to ask your doctor for a center where they don't just do the testing, but they do all the counseling around it, counseling to decide if you want to do it, counseling once you get the results, what the results really mean. Because it's not -- it's not always simple what they mean.

And so you don't want to go just anywhere. You want to go someplace that's going to give you all of that context.

ZAHN: They certainly gave us a very poignant idea of the very toughest choices they've had to make along the way. I'm not sure how most of us would do if we had to confront that reality.

COHEN: That's right. Other people might do other thing. Tammy, one of the five sisters who carries the gene but does not have breast cancer, next week will have her healthy breasts removed. Not everyone would make that choice. But for her, that's the right choice.

ZAHN: Elizabeth, thanks for joining us tonight.

You can catch an encore of "Breast Cancer Survivor Stories" Saturday at 4 p.m. Eastern on CNN.

You've probably heard by now they, of course, picked a jury for the Michael Jackson trial, but what are your chances for being picked for another case? Coming up next, a very interesting inside look at jury selection. Are they looking for you?


ZAHN: By celebrity trial standards, jury selection went like a rocket in Michael Jackson's child molestation case. Lawyers chose eight alternates today after 12 jurors were picked yesterday. It only took about five days in court to do that. Compare that to the 12 weeks it took to seat a jury in the Scott Peterson case.

More and more lawyers turn to consultants to help get the right people for their side into the jury box. Martha Stewart's lawyers used them. So did Scott Peterson's, and it's a good bet so did Michael Jackson's.

Tonight, a rare inside look at what goes into picking a jury. Here's senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.


JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST (voice-over): Twelve empty chairs, 12 ordinary citizens, a seemingly simple pairing at the heart of the American justice system, but playing out behind the scenes...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jones denies that he was left of center...

TOOBIN: ... the business of jury selection, a complicated and highly specialized science.

JASON BLOOM, JURY SPECIALIST: I'd pay particular attention to jurors No. six and juror No. 10.

TOOBIN: Enter the jury consultants.

GENE HACKMAN, ACTOR: Find something on every one of them. Pull their files. Review every word, every photo, every medical record. Do it.

TOOBIN: In the 2003 movie, "Runaway Jury," experts say Gene Hackman's portrayal of a consultant blinded by power was exaggerated. But in real life, a consultant can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

CINDY ANDREWS, JURY SPECIALIST: Ask them what they like best about their job.

GUPTA: At CSI, Courtroom Sciences Incorporated, near Dallas, Texas, nothing about jury selection is left to chance. Its state-of- the-art facility claims to be the largest of its kind in the world, with mock courtrooms, closed-circuit cameras, video editing and a high-tech control room that rivals some TV studios.

For jury specialists Jason Bloom and Cindy Andrews, it's a legal laboratory, perfect for pretrial experiments.

ANDREWS: I think people would be surprised to learn that there is a great amount of effort that goes on in the front end of the jury selection process. It's not just what happens in the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And your marital status?

ANDREWS: There has been vast amounts of information gathered on the jurors ahead of time.

TOOBIN: Among CSI's services, mock trials and training workshops.

BLOOM: What we try to do is help the attorneys build rapport with the jurors, because rapport is a big part of persuasion. Maybe that involves stepping closer towards them. Maybe it involves smiling more.

ANDREWS: They're going to be highly attuned to everything that's going on in the courtroom.

TOOBIN: Their work is highly develop confidential, so CSI simulated a jury selection process for CNN's cameras.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Raise your hands if you can follow the law.

TOOBIN: It frequently starts with a written questionnaire, containing several red flag questions designed to root out jurors' potential biases.

BLOOM: You're fishing for information. So you need to be able to tell the attorney that if you want to find these fish, you need to use these pieces of bait.

TOOBIN: The next step is called voir dire, French for "to speak the truth." During this stage, attorneys ask potential jurors a wide variety of personal questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your career background?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And you said your father was a minister.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you more of a sympathetic person or more of a practical person? TOOBIN: Every question is carefully crafted to reveal key information and insight into each juror. They also watch for clues in a juror's body language and appearance.

ANDREWS: I'm looking at how they're dressing, how they're carrying themselves in the courtroom, their level of deference to the judge.

BLOOM: It scares me when I get some closed body language, because it means that they're not really open to that attorney. Maybe they're even offended by some of the questions he's asking.

TOOBIN: While the process is called jury selection, the two sides are actually deselecting jurors who might rule against them. But in high stakes trials, consultants are increasingly on guard against a threat known as the stealth juror.

BLOOM: Stealth jurors are people that want to get on the jury because they've got a hidden agenda. Other people in high profile cases may want to get a book interview, may want to get a TV interview, may have other alternative agendas for wanting to get on that jury.

TOOBIN: What's good for the prosecution may not be good for the defense. But both sides try to avoid certain high-risk jurors: people with strong personalities.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're ridiculous. They are ridiculous.

TOOBIN: Self-appointed experts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where you can actually assign, like, percentages of negligence.

TOOBIN: Leaders, who could all have the power to sway a jury, like Henry Fonda did in "12 Angry Men."

HENRY FONDA, ACTOR: No jury can declare a man guilty unless it's sure.

TOOBIN: Consultants also pay close attention to a group's interaction. To that end, they recruit a pool of people who match their ideal jury and closely watch them during mock deliberations.

BLOOM: Watching to see who's talking the most, watching to see how one person can sway another person or another group of people, looking to see, really, where the heat of the battles are in the deliberations.

TOOBIN: Cindy ranks every potential juror with a score or grade.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did we give No. 1?

ANDREWS: We graded her an F.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And No. 7? ANDREWS: Likewise, an F.

TOOBIN: Then she compiles a strike list of dangerous jurors to eliminate and a wish list of ideal jurors to keep.

ANDREWS: There's a little bit of gamesmanship or chess playing in the sense that you're trying to outsmart the other side.

TOOBIN: Finally, each side takes turns dismissing jurors in a rapid-fire elimination process known as peremptory challenges. Some call it the big spin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defendants challenge No. 13, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plaintiff exercises their first peremptory challenge to juror No. 3.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense challenge No. 9, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plaintiff will exercise its second peremptory challenge as to juror No. 7, your honor.

TOOBIN: All this research isn't cheap. A trial consultant's day rate can be as high as $5,000, and a mock trial can run another $20,000 a day.


ZAHN: There is another thing that might surprise you about jury consultants. They actually pay people to be spectators in court. They call them shadow jurors. They closely match the real jurors and give feedback every night about what worked and what didn't.

Doctors are keeping a close eye on Pope John Paul II. And in a moment, I'll be talking with a longtime Vatican observer who also happens to be a former U.S. congressman. We'll be right back.


ZAHN: You're looking at a live picture of the hospital in Rome where the pope underwent surgery earlier today. Updating the condition of Pope John Paul II tonight. The Vatican is telling us that he's doing fine after being rushed there for an emergency tracheotomy to help him breathe. And now he's reported to be on a respirator.

Officials say he suffered a relapse from the same flu that hospitalized him for more than a week just 13 days ago.

And joining me now from Washington is Father Robert Drinan, a former Congressman who's now teaching at Georgetown University.

Thanks for joining us at this time. I know it's not easy for you as you observe what's going on in Rome.

We know that the former U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, Ray Flynn, has said he is very concerned, because the pope can't speak now, that perhaps his moral authority will be muted. Are you concerned about that, Father Drinan?

FATHER ROBERT DRINAN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Not really. First of all, we should not pre-empt anything that might happen. He could live for a long, long time with the best medical care.

But I think people are beginning to look back at all his achievements, and he has many, many achievements. He's perceived as a somewhat conservative person with regard to specifically Catholic issues, but people remember him, first, as a person who believed in justice and human rights and spoke out about that all over the world.

He will have a special memory in the benediction of the world, because he has brought it about that the Catholic Church has better relations with the Jewish community than ever before.

He knew Jews growing up around the time of the Holocaust. He had Israel recognized by the Holy City, and he improved relations immensely.

Another thing that he done -- that he did that will be remembered, he wrote on many occasions about the mistakes on the church. He confessed openly to 82 mistakes made by the church in history, such as the crusades and the inquisition and the persecution of the Jews. All of that is a legacy that we'll remember for a long, long time.

ZAHN: This is a pope who spent more time in public yesterday, 30 minutes in all, than he has for many, many week. And we saw this turnaround in his health today. Do you see any scenario under which he would consider resigning?

DRINAN: I just don't know that. I don't think anybody knows that. But provisions have been made. We've never had this in 500 years where a pope gets sick, but I think that he or his advisers will designate that moment, and that -- that means automatically within 15 days the conclave will come together to select his successor.

ZAHN: Father Drinan, thank you for joining us with your insights tonight. And I know you, as well as a lot of people around the world will be praying for the pope's recovery tonight.

Larry King will have more on Pope John Paul II coming up at the top of the hour. Hi, Larry. Who's joining you tonight?

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Hi, Paula, and happy birthday.

ZAHN: Thank you very much.

KING: You look great on your birthday. But you always do.

ZAHN: Thank you.

KING: Reverend Billy Graham will check in with us by phone. And then Jude Dougherty (ph) of Catholic University and Father John Bertunic (ph), an old friend of the pope's. Delia Gallagher is on the scene in the Vatican. Father Michael Manning is here, and our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta. So we'll devote the whole hour to this scene in the Vatican.

ZAHN: And we will see you in a little less than three minutes, Larry. Look forward to seeing you at 9.

And we'll be right back.


ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here. Please stay with CNN for the very latest developments on the pope's condition. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next with more on that. Have a good night, everybody.


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