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NEWS FROM CNN

Fierce Fighting in Najaf; America on Alert; Bush and Kerry Campaigns; Terror Plots

Aired August 9, 2004 - 11:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Up first, Iraq, where fierce fighting has moved into the center of the holy city of Najaf. And it comes as former Pentagon favorite, Ahmed Chalabi, and his nephew, Salem Chalabi, face criminal charges by the interim government. Covering it all for us, CNN's Matthew Chance. He's joining us live in Baghdad -- Matthew.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, thank you.

Still fierce fighting in the holy city of Najaf in southern Iraq. We've had some casualty figures given to us by the U.S. military who, of course, have been battling members of the Mehdi Army on the streets of that holy city.

They're telling us that at least 360 Mehdi Army militia have been killed by U.S. forces in Najaf over the course of the last five days. But we understand also that four American soldiers have lost their lives.

All of that despite appeals from the interim Iraqi government for the violence to end. Muqtada al-Sadr, the firebrand Shia cleric who heads up the Mehdi Army, rejecting any negotiations, it seems, saying he will stay in Najaf and fight, even until the last drop of blood comes out of his body, in his words.

Military officials not preparing to leave or back down either, though, saying that their forces have now surround the Imam Ali Mosque in the center of -- of Najaf. This is one of the holiest sites in Shia Islam. It's also, according to U.S. forces, where members of the Mehdi Army have been holed up and using it as a -- as a launching pad to attacks against U.S. forces.

Now, they say they've got permission, as you mentioned, from the governor of Najaf to operate in military operations in and around that sacred site. They say they've got no plans to do that, obviously mindful of the fact that putting a foot wrong could provoke a wide scale and ferocious backlash amongst the majority Shia population of this country -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Matthew, fill us in, clarify what exactly is going on with Ahmed Chalabi, his nephew, Salem Chalabi. Ahmed Chalabi the former president of the Iraqi Governing Council, the former leader of the Iraqi National Congress. Salem Chalabi, who's been in charge of the Iraqi war crimes tribunals, what exactly is happening to those two men? CHANCE: Well, there's a lot of information and misinformation surrounding the Chalabis, as there often is. But certainly a dramatic fall from grace for Ahmed Chalabi.

Over the past few months, remember, he was touted at one point, of course, as being the leader of the new Iraq. But over the past few months he's -- he's been accused of spying for Iran, he's been accused of passing on false information to the coalition ahead of the war in Iraq about the presence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Now he has this arrest warrant against him here in Iraq for counterfeiting of money charge. Apparently there was some money laundering going on. He denies that charge as he denies all of the others.

Also, his nephew, Salem Chalabi, has an arrest warrant issued against him. This time for murder. Salem Chalabi is a key figure in the new Iraq because he's the director of the special tribunal for human rights set up by Salem Chalabi, amongst others, to try members of the former Iraqi regime. Foremost amongst them, of course, Saddam Hussein.

Both men deny the charges against them. Both say it's Ba'athists, former Ba'athists in the Iraqi interim government who are launching these charges in order to discredit them -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We'll continue to monitor those two stories, what's happening in Iraq and, what's happening to those two Chalabis as well.

Matthew, thank you very much.

Other developments in Iraq we're following as well. Within the last few hours, four mortar shells landed near the interior ministry in Baghdad, killing two police officers. Earlier, the restive Sadr City district of Baghdad was put under curfew. The neighborhood is largely controlled by militants allied with the renegade cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Also, an Iranian diplomat has been kidnapped by militants apparently somewhere between Baghdad and Karbala, where he was based. Arabic television station Al-Arabiya has aired videotape of the hostage.

And west of Baghdad, a U.S. Marine has been killed in action. The military says the Marine was involved in what it calls security and stability operations. It brings the number of U.S. troops in Iraq to 930.

America on alert. An update now on the heightened alert status in a few select parts of the Northeast and New York City. Law enforcement officials are keeping a very close eye on certain modes of transportation. With the latest, hour homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve -- Jeanne.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, law enforcement sources say there is credible and specific intelligence indicating that al Qaeda looked at the possibility of using tourist helicopters as a means of attacking targets in the New York area. But homeland officials say there is no evidence that al Qaeda is currently planning or plotting to use them.

According to law enforcement sources, in the treasure trove of materials seized in Pakistan, evidence that al Qaeda operatives have done a fair amount surveillance, exploring, for instance, how to rent a helicopter and how one might be used in a terrorist attack. One official said, "They were very deliberate and specific in their casing." Also, one or more New York area helipads were on a list of sites of concern distributed to law enforcement last week, though a homeland official indicates there was much less detailed information about the helipad or helipads than there was about the five sites that led to the hike in the threat level.

In light of all of that, an advisory was sent out on Friday by law enforcement by the Department of Homeland Security. It begins with this line: "We have no evidence indicating al Qaeda is planning an aerial attack using helicopters in New York City or the United States."

The bulletin does recommend that passengers on tourist helicopters be thoroughly screened and required to show I.D., and that luggage and cargo be identified by people onboard. It also recommends that suspicious inquiries, loitering and people posing as helicopter pilots or ground personnel be reported to authorities. The bottom line, officials appear to be concerned with the potential for a helicopter attack just as they are concerned about the potential for attacks using airplanes or truck bombs -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I assume, Jeanne, they're concerned about not only helicopters, but ground, boats and divers, all sorts of possibilities. Almost an endless number of possibilities out there for a creative terrorist.

MESERVE: That's exactly right. And that's why you see this series of bulletins going out about a number of different modes of attack, modes of transportation and so forth. But there does appear to be some very specific intelligence here relating to the use of helicopters.

BLITZER: Jeanne Meserve, thanks very much.

President Bush held forth at a campaign stop in Virginia this morning, and Senator Kerry is chugging by train across Arizona, where the race is as tight as the canyon is grand. We'll start with President Bush, who chatted with supporters at a northern Virginia community college. Our White House correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux, picks up our political coverage -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, President Bush is really back on the campaign trail with a vengeance. It began today in Annandale, Virginia, at a community college. That's where the president highlighted some of what they call an air of ownership, Bush administration programs aimed at helping people on their homes, small businesses, health care plans, a piece of their own retirement.

But also, the president realizing that the polls show many Americans still very critical of Iraq policy, his performance when it comes to the Iraq war. Making no apologies today, saying that the administration did the right thing and that they have no regrets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We didn't find the stockpiles that we thought we would find. Everybody thought they would be there. We haven't found it. But he had the capability of making weapons. Knowing what I know today, I would have made the same decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And the president's going to take that message across the country. We're talking about nine states in seven days.

Tomorrow, he'll be traveling to Florida, making three stops. Wednesday, it is on to New Mexico, as well as Arizona. Thursday, Nevada and California. And then Friday, it is Oregon and Washington, and Saturday on to Sioux City, Iowa.

One of the people, a familiar face that's going to be traveling with the president is Senator John McCain. As you know, the maverick Republican once the rival to President Bush in 2000. He is going to be on the campaign trail, urging American voters, particularly those swing voters, to vote for President Bush.

BLITZER: Suzanne, I take it that Mrs. Bush, Laura Bush, the first lady, is going to address the very sensitive subject of stem cell research today and in the coming days, potentially pitting her against a former first lady, Nancy Reagan, specifically. What can you tell us about what Mrs. Bush is planning on doing?

MALVEAUX: Well, this is the third anniversary of the Bush administration's signing that policy. It gives limited funding -- limited funding, federal funding for embryonic cell stem research. Essentially, it gives it for adult stem cell research, not embryonic stem cell research.

That is the big debate, of course. And the first lady is out saying she believes her husband made the right decision. As you know, she had one of her parents who had Alzheimer's Disease. It's a very difficult and personal issue for the first lady, but she is going to be on the front lines there saying that she backs her husband, she backs the president on this very controversial issue.

BLITZER: All of us remember Ron Reagan, former president, the late President Ronald Reagan's son, spoke on this issue at the Democratic convention only a couple of weeks ago. Suzanne, thanks very much. We'll monitor Mrs. Bush's statement later today.

Senator Kerry's post-convention swing through 21 states puts him in Arizona today. He was greeted overnight in Flagstaff by another large and enthusiastic crowd at a rally that began around midnight. At last word, Kerry was chugging by train across the Arizona desert to peek at the Grand Canyon and visit the Arizona town of Kingman.

We'll check in -- actually, John King, our White House correspondent, is covering the Kerry-Edwards campaign today. He's joining us now live on the phone.

John, where are you and what's happening?

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I am on a train making my way through the Grand Canyon. We're still a bit of a ways away.

Senator Kerry will be coming in by helicopter. He's taking the shorter route today.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) campaign event. He's going up (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 3,000 miles of campaign after leaving Boston (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Meanwhile, Senator Kerry is going to take a peek at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Grand Canyon (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BLITZER: John -- John, I think I'm going to interrupt you because you're breaking out. You don't have a very good cell. I'm going to bring you back, though, this hour, if that cell connection improves. We want to hear from you on what John Kerry and John Edwards are doing. Specifically, John Kerry out in the Grand Canyon.

CNN's senior White House correspondent John King covering the Kerry campaign today.

Keeping America safe from terrorism: "TIME" Magazine offering an unsettling perspective on what's believed to be an al Qaeda list of targets. We'll talk to "TIME" Washington correspondent Tim Burger about the magazine's findings. That's coming up.

Also, the front lines of a nation in need. We'll take you to Sudan, where help is badly needed to ease a huge humanitarian crisis.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We've heard all the warnings. White House officials saying al Qaeda is determined to pull off yet another big attack right here in the United States, possibly before the elections on November 2. But how, when and where?

The current issue of "TIME" Magazine fills in some of the blanks with some truly frightening details of a possible al Qaeda strike. Here to talk about it, "TIME" Magazine's Washington correspondent, Tim Burger.

Tim, thanks very much for joining us.

TIM BURGER, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Sure. BLITZER: Are you convinced that all of this information that you've reported diligently, you and your colleagues in "TIME" Magazine, is the whole story? Or is there more out there? Because what you've reported is pretty chilling.

BURGER: Oh, I think there's more out there. We didn't even have room for everything, frankly, and I'm sure there's more that we haven't heard about.

Basically, there are people in al Qaeda who do nothing but try and dream up ways of damaging America. So you can imagine that they're thinking of all kinds of ways.

Some of the new ones that we were reporting on is possible attacks with tourist helicopters in Manhattan, doing extra -- extra detail. We've reported new detail on the surveillance of the Prudential building in Newark. So they really have a lot of time on their hands to do nothing but plot.

BLITZER: It's interesting, that Prudential building, in Newark, New Jersey, because you opened the article with extensive casing of that specific building. You wouldn't think that a Prudential building in Newark, New Jersey, would be a major target.

I can understand New York City, I can understand Washington, the World Bank, the IMF, Capitol Hill, or the New York Stock Exchange, let's say, in New York. But why the Prudential building in Newark?

BURGER: Well, it events (ph) as a real sort of cunning on the part of al Qaeda. Not that we're surprised by that, but they know that Prudential, it's a large building. So bringing it down or damaging it would be quite dramatic.

Perhaps it's a little bit out of left field, as everyone's saying. It is a -- Prudential is a major U.S. company, so it wouldn't be helpful to the economy. So they -- it's also within sight of Manhattan, where they attacked in '93, and with devastating consequences came back in 2001.

BLITZER: And one of the things you point out there is the garage at that building may not necessarily be suitable for a truck to drive in, but a limousine could easily drive in and cause enormous damage.

BURGER: That's right. They apparently through their surveillance noticed that trucks for whatever reason were not entering this garage and are not able to get in. But that limousines and town cars, which would be common among, you know, major executives and, you know, stars in New York, New Jersey, easily got in.

So they figured they could strip out the seats and all of that of a limousine, load it with explosives and park it, and possibly escape through the mass transit options that exist in Newark. They apparently cased the path trains and that sort of thing.

BLITZER: So it would be a remotely timed explosive device so that the killers could actually get away, as opposed to suicide truck drivers.

BURGER: Quite possibly. And that's the way they did it in '93, these sort of seeds of al Qaeda.

You know, those folks who did it in '93 to the World Trade Center, none of them were suicide bombers. They just, you know, set a bomb in a truck and left.

BLITZER: One of the intriguing -- the other intriguing part of the article was the Citigroup building in Manhattan, which apparently is another target, they noted that this building did not necessarily have the best of structural design. Not necessarily the steel structure that could keep it up.

BURGER: That's right. In fact, a huge secret renovation was -- repair was done to that Citibank building because engineers became afraid after it was built that a stiff wind hitting it by the -- from the right direction could knock it down. So they did modifications that are very complex, and I guess the -- this did eventually come out in the news and al Qaeda noted that it might not have a very strong structure.

BLITZER: Because there were a lot of articles at the time, including some documentaries, about this one building that might be vulnerable to, as you point out, not necessarily even a hurricane, but some stiff winds.

BURGER: Right.

BLITZER: And they -- so that building is now secure, is that right?

BURGER: It's secure from the wind. And obviously we hope now that it's secure also from bombers and al Qaeda.

BLITZER: What about here in Washington, though, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund? Those are relatively new buildings with state of the art structural security.

BURGER: That's right. And some of them have a lot of space.

You've been by them yourself. They're sort of in front of a bit of a square, the new World Bank building. But basically they -- they -- those are institutions that around the world are not -- not loved by everyone. And they're viewed somewhat as a tool of the United States. And so, you know, it's not surprising that al Qaeda might want to make them a target.

BLITZER: Is there beefed up security now surrounding helipads, helicopter pilots in the New York City or the Washington area? Helicopters flying over the District of Columbia, that's not going to happen because of the no-fly zone, in effect, over the nation's capital. But what do you know about a potential helicopter attack?

BURGER: Well, certainly in New York City they're -- they're lucky because there's 40,000 police officers. Now, they have a big job, a lot of terrain to cover. But they do try and beef up security around threatened sites.

But what we did report was that they did extensive casing of heliports, maybe to see what was vulnerable to whatever kind of attack, or even hijacking a helicopter, possibly. And they also scrutinized the cockpits of helicopters, suggesting that they wanted to know how to operate them, as they had learned how to operate 747s.

BLITZER: Is it your assessment that this particular cell, this terror cell, this al Qaeda operation that was casing these five various buildings in New York, Newark and Washington D.C., has now been wrapped up given the arrests in Britain, in the United States and in Pakistan, most significantly in Pakistan in recent weeks?

BURGER: I think that it will be never -- it will be very hard to say that something's been totally wrapped up. I noticed that Fran Townsend, the White House Homeland Security official, said that the plot seems to have been disrupted. but they don't know if it's all or part of the plot.

Basically, the thing to watch for is whether sleeper cells are found in the United States. If they are found, then you know that things were at an even higher level of danger than we even know now. If they're not found, we won't know -- we won't know that they're not here because it's very hard to find them. So, basically, it's proving a negative, and everyone just has to keep their eyes open going forward.

BLITZER: Apparently, Pakistani intelligence, the security services in Pakistan, they're upset because the name of one of the individuals arrested in mid-July was disclosed here in Washington by U.S. officials the same day that effectively that the U.S. went on higher alert a week ago yesterday. Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan, that he had been effectively co-opted, being used by Pakistani intelligence to find other al Qaeda operatives when his name all of a sudden surfaced in the U.S. press, leaked obviously, by some U.S. official.

What do you know about this?

BURGER: Well, that was a big opportunity by flipping him, as you point out. Apparently he was, you know, able to send out e-mails and paying some of his terrorist buddies. And if they wrote back then we would know where he was. The leak of him potentially is a big blow and a setback.

Now, I'm not satisfied that I know how that leak occurred, frankly. I don't know if it was a U.S. or foreign official who leaked it. I do recall that when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured a little over a year ago, there had been interest in keeping that secret for a while. And it was leaked, and not by the U.S. And that's how that came out. So, I don't know if it's an American or a, you know, foreign official, but whoever did it appears to have damaged the -- the war on terrorism.

BLITZER: Senator Chuck Schumer of New York told me yesterday on "LATE EDITION" he wants an investigation, who leaked the name of Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan. And when I spoke to Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, yesterday on "LATE EDITION," she confirmed that on background, someone did it, but she said you have to balance the need to provide information to the public with obviously something like this, which could disrupt an ongoing intelligence operation.

Tim, I'm going to ask you to stand by, because there are more questions that I have and more answers that you have as well. We'll take a break. More of Tim Burger of "TIME" Magazine when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We're continuing our conversation with Tim Burger of "TIME" Magazine, one of several reporters contributing to a major article in the new issue of "TIME" Magazine on the terror network.

One of the things you say in the article is that Pakistani intelligence uncovered three laptop computers and 51 data-rich discs. This is where the information about the casing of these various buildings in Newark, New York and Washington came up, is that right?

BURGER: Apparently so, yes.

BLITZER: What else was on those discs based on your reporting?

BURGER: Well, we also report in the current issue about talk of bombing New York Harbor or attacking tankers or ocean liners. As you know, the Queen Mary-type big tourist ships come in and out of the harbor.

BLITZER: Sort of like the way they did with the USS Cole.

BURGER: That's right. They -- one thing that al Qaeda does is they look at what kind of attacks work and they try and replicate them. So they know that ramming a little boat into a big boat in the case of the Cole worked.

So whether they do it that way or -- you know, there was an alert a while back about al Qaeda members trying to learn how to scuba dive. So did they want to have their own amphibious capability, where they could maybe attach explosives to the hulls of boats? So New York Harbor was also on the watch list after that.

BLITZER: Now, this information on these discs, in these computers, three or four years old. But there's other information that the U.S. government has, together with friendly security services from other nations, that suggests that these plots may still be in the works.

BURGER: Well, there was apparently communication to some individuals inside the United States. That's -- that's one of the most concerning things, frankly, and that's the thing we talked earlier about, looking for sleepers in the United States. That's kind of the number one question always, because to do an attack you have to have someone here who will carry it out. So there were apparently communications between some of these individuals picked up in Pakistan and people in the U.S.

BLITZER: I don't think it -- it shouldn't be that difficult, should it, that if you have these discs and these computers, and they were e-mailing, even if they were encoded, that it shouldn't be that difficult for some computer experts working for the U.S. government to find out where these people, their addresses, at least their e-mail addresses are?

BURGER: Right. Well, that's exactly what they're trying to do is forensically pull the trail back and see who was where. But, of course, the al Qaeda folks know that they can be tracked by e-mail, and so they're pretty careful about it. And, you know, maybe they did it, you know, by an Internet cafe here and a, you know, Internet cafe there, and they may not use the same computer twice.

And so they -- they're certainly trying to avoid it. But hopefully, whoever those recipients were are already under surveillance.

BLITZER: Based on your reporting, based on our own reporting and other news organizations' reporting, some of these terror suspects that have been picked up were -- I guess we could describe them as terror -- almost like computer geeks, right?

BURGER: That's right. I mean, this is the modern era, the technology era. And al Qaeda has -- has not stuck to, you know, Stone Age tactics and thinking. They may have a Stone Age philosophy, but they're -- they're very up-to-date in their use of computers and codes and intelligence. Trade craft, essentially.

BLITZER: Are these sort of wholly-owned subsidiaries, independent operators of Osama bin Laden and the broader al Qaeda network? Or did you get the sense based on your "TIME" Magazine reporting that this is part of a -- that Osama bin Laden is still very much in charge?

BURGER: Well, we've learned in recent months that Osama bin Laden is sort of a micromanager to the annoyance of some of his -- some of his subordinates at times. But -- so there has been evidence recently that he's been sort of involved in some of the command and control, but at the same time he has to spend a lot of time trying to -- to stay at large and not be caught. So he's got to walk a fine line there.

As to the others, one of the -- at least one of the individual who was arrested in Pakistan is apparently related to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. So it's sort of a family business there, apparently.

And in general, just quickly wrapping up that, al Qaeda, as you know, has sort of become a bit of a movement. It's not just sort of al Qaeda Inc. anymore. It's also people sort of copycatting and getting on the train of that ideology.

BLITZER: And that's one of the most worrisome parts of all of this, that you don't necessarily need command and control from the top. You can just go out if you have some talented people willing to die in the process to do all sorts of dastardly deeds.

BURGER: Exactly.

BLITZER: Tim Burger, good work to you and your colleagues at "TIME" Magazine. Thanks very much for joining us.

BURGER: Good to be here.

BLITZER: We're going to take a quick break. Much more coverage coming up.

Terrorism and the race for the White House: straight ahead we'll take a closer look at what both campaigns are doing this week. Find out how recent developments are affecting what all of us are hearing on the campaign trail.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The war on terror is a major theme on the presidential campaign trail. It's a very serious issue. It doesn't get much more serious than this. Some are charging, though, it's being used for political advantage.

Joining us now to talk about that and more, two guests. Susan Rice is a senior foreign policy adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign. Danielle Pletka is the vice president of the American Enterprise Institute here in Washington.

Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Susan, I'll begin with you. I want to play to you what the president said just a little while ago in northern Virginia at this town meeting that he had, making his case for his policies. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I chose to defend America. I will do so every time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The president making the case that he had no choice but to do what he did in Iraq. How is this issue, from your perspective, resonating out there on the campaign trail?

SUSAN RICE, SR. KERRY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, I think the American people are questioning why we went to war the way we did, in a rush, without our allies. Now we're bearing nearly 90 percent of the cost and the burden on our troops. We didn't have a plan to win the peace. We didn't have our troops well equipped.

And while it's not wrong to question whether we did the right thing in Iraq -- John Kerry has said he would have held Saddam Hussein accountable -- the question is whether we did the thing right. And it looks more and more like we did not. We didn't have a plan to win the peace, and we haven't brought our allies to our side.

BLITZER: The president himself, Danielle, admits that things have not necessarily gone according to what he thought would be the case, especially the failure to find WMD, weapons of mass destruction.

DANIELLE PLETKA, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: I think that a lot of things haven't gone exactly as many people expected. But the truth is that, in no conflict, when you're doing your best to protect the United States, when you believe a dictator has weapons of mass destruction, might use them, is working with terrorists, you've got to go forward.

Yes, it's true, we've discovered a lot of things since. But I don't think those things were obvious to us beforehand. You have to confront the facts as you know them, not as you hope they will be later.

BLITZER: Did you think more than a year after this war, going into the war, more than 900 American military personnel would be dead?

PLETKA: I didn't know how many Americans would be suffering in Iraq. Our soldiers are doing a wonderful job, and I think that they're fighting for a very, very worthy cause. I think the Iraqi people have been enormously well served by the efforts of Americans, and I hope that as things go forward in Iraq, as the sovereign government leads more and more, as we have elections at the end of this year, early next year, we'll be able to draw our troops down.

But we shouldn't race, we shouldn't set artificial deadlines. We will be letting them down and the Iraqi people down. And I think we'll be letting our own national security down if we do the wrong thing there.

BLITZER: Susan, could you clarify what exactly Senator Kerry's position is if he were elected president? He told me about 10 days ago when I interviewed him that he has a plan in mind to reduce the number of U.S. troops, to get out. He has an exit strategy ready to unveil. He didn't want to provide any details, specific details, because he thought it would undermine his negotiating position if elected president.

But can you give us some details, what exactly he would do, given the current situation, if he were elected president?

RICE: Well, first of all, let me say, we're not setting any artificial deadlines to get out. What Senator Kerry has said repeatedly is that with several specific tasks accomplished, it's our view that we can significantly reduce the number of U.S. forces in Iraq next year. Those specific tasks, however, remain to be accomplished.

First and foremost, we have to increase the number of Iraqis that are trained to police and secure their country. And that process needs to improve substantially.

Secondly, we need to bring more allies to our side. And John Kerry, as a new president, with a fresh start, and a willingness to bargain hard with our allies, can bring those partners to our side.

At the same time, we also have to recognize that coming up next year are three sets of elections in Iraq. These elections are critical for the successful completion of our mission.

We need to accelerate the preparations for those elections. We need to make sure that the United Nations, which is supposed to organize those elections, in fact, has the security it needs to get on the ground and do its job. There is a great deal more that needs to be done to secure Iraq to enable the people of Iraq to participate in a democratic process. All of those are among the steps that John Kerry would take as an urgent basis.

BLITZER: Danielle, it sounds to me, though, that the president is trying to do virtually the same thing as he looks forward if he were reelected. Do you see any significant difference between what you just heard from Susan as opposed to what the president wants to do?

PLETKA: Well, let me be frank. I don't really know what Senator Kerry would do.

I think that there's a very reasonable debate to be had about possible differences. On the other hand, I can't make a judgment based on a secret plan. And that's a little bit troubling.

I'd love to know what Senator Kerry's plan is to deliver something different, to get us out, as he said, or to reduce our troop levels in six months. Those were his words. I have no idea what he intends to do, so I can't really compare.

BLITZER: Well, let's ask Susan to respond to that.

Susan, you know the criticisms, the comparisons being made to Richard Nixon's secret plan to get out of Vietnam during the war -- during the election in 1972 and John Kerry's supposedly secret plan to get out of Iraq during this campaign right now.

RICE: Wolf, there's no secret plan. And that's a misstatement of what John Kerry said.

He did say that with increased Iraqi forces trained and equipped to secure their country, with more allies to our side, with a successful elections process, it's reasonable to draw down our forces next year. But President Bush has not taken those steps. He's not succeeded in bringing allies to our side. He hasn't even put in place a force to enable the U.N. to come in and do its electoral preparations.

We are way behind. The training of Iraqis languished for over a year. So part of this is a question of accelerating and intensifying our efforts, but another part of this is about leadership. It's about the hard bargaining that we need do with our allies and partners to bring them into the game. We're going to have to give something to get something.

BLITZER: All right.

RICE: The substance of those negotiations are not things we can talk about in public. They have to be done behind closed doors and diplomatic channels. But that's not talking about a secret plan.

BLITZER: Let's Danielle respond.

Go ahead, Danielle.

PLETKA: I guess I'd have to say hard negotiating with our allies, I think that that is what Mr. Kerry has alleged got Mr. Bush into trouble in the first place. I have not seen any indication that no matter who is president of the United States, the government of, say, France, would be contributing troops.

In addition, we have 200,000-plus Iraqis who are trained for police, for civil defense forces, and for a new military. We have an extremely effective general, General Petraeus, who was put in charge of additional training very recently. I think he's going to do an incredible job to deliver.

I'm just not sure what the value added here is. I'm not sure what the difference is.

BLITZER: Well, what about her specific point that John Kerry starts fresh with Germany, with France, with Russia, with other allies in NATO, for example, and there might not be the bitterness, the hard feelings that exist with the current administration as opposed to these allied leaders?

PLETKA: I think the Bush administration has done a great deal to reach out to our allies. The G8 summit that took place earlier this summer was really something where you saw everybody working together. We're working together diplomatically in the Middle East. I think all of our allies really want Iraq to succeed, but the idea that somehow a different president would be able to encourage them to contribute troops that they don't have seems to me a false idea.

BLITZER: All right. We're going to take a quick break.

RICE: Well...

BLITZER: Susan, I want you to hold your thought for a second because we have more to discuss on Iraq, the war on terror, the campaign for the White House.

We will continue our discussion with Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute, Susan Rice, John Kerry's senior foreign policy adviser, right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Welcome back. We're getting some disturbing information on a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. CNN's Kathleen Koch is joining us now. She's got the news.

What is exactly going on, Kathleen?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, sad news today about General Shalikashvili. If you will recall, he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Clinton administration for four years from 1993 to 1997. We have learned that he has fallen ill.

A spokesman at Madigan Army Medical Center in Tacoma, Washington, says that the general is right now in guarded condition in the intensive care unit. When I spoke with spokesman Sharon Aiello (ph), though, she would not say when he had been admitted, nor exactly what had happened, anything other than what his condition right now was.

Now, if you'll recall, the 68-year-old Shalikashvili was born in Poland. And when he was named chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that made him the first foreign-born chairman ever to serve in that capacity here at the Pentagon.

Prior to that, he was NATO's 10th supreme allied commander in Europe. He was -- he began his military career, he was drafted into the Army. He served in Vietnam, rose through the ranks. He in 1991 headed up the very important international relief operation that flew in food and provided aerial support for the Kurds in northern Iraq.

Now, most recently, I think most people will recall that General Shalikashvili has been a very vocal supporter of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, speaking only last month at the Democratic National Convention -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I remember in Boston only a couple of weeks ago he spoke there. He was among several, about a dozen retired members of the military who had gone up on that stage to support Senator Kerry.

General John Shalikashvili in guarded condition at a hospital up in Washington State. We'll monitor his condition for our viewers and wish him and his family only the best. General John Shalikashvili, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, suffering some ailment, serious ailment, clearly, in Washington State.

Thank you very much, Kathleen Koch, for that.

Politics never far away from what's going on right now. Let's go to Chicago. The Democratic vice presidential nominee, John Edwards, out there campaigning right now with the state senator and wannabe for the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama.

You see his back to you in the left hand side of the screen over there. I'm looking for John Edwards. I hear his voice, but don't see him. They're at a diner in Chicago right now. John Edwards and Barack Obama campaigning together.

There's Barack Obama, turning around. And in the middle of the screen now we can see Senator Edwards that the diner in Chicago.

Only yesterday confirmed that former Republican presidential candidate Alan Keyes is now going to be the Republican candidate to challenge Barack Obama for that Senate seat in Illinois. We'll monitor that Senate seat, we'll monitor all of the politics for our viewers as we continue the count down to November 2.

But let's talk a little bit about the war on terror and the race for the White House with our two guests who were still with us. Susan Rice is a senior foreign policy adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign. Danielle Pletka is a vice president over at the American Enterprise Institute.

Do you want to have another shot at explaining, Susan, what exactly the plan that John Kerry has for getting out of Iraq would be?

RICE: Yes, wolf. I'm happy to go over that again. But let me just say, the fundamental question for the president to answer is whether he's prepared to admit to the American people that the way we went to war in Iraq was fundamentally flawed.

We have not got our allies by our side. We had sent our troops in without adequate equipment. We didn't have a plan to win the peace. And hence, we're in a very difficult situation.

John Kerry would work to dig us out of that difficult situation by bringing our allies to our side. He understands that that entails some very tough negotiations. That doesn't seem to be working for the Bush administration. Instead, our partners are deciding to leave Iraq.

We need to understand what their concerns are, where they're coming from, give them a real scope and role in rebuilding Iraq. That's one critical piece of the plan.

The next piece is building up the Iraqi security forces. It is true that General Petraeus is now on the seat and doing an excellent job, but it's taken more than a year after the end of combat for us to get serious about training Iraqi personnel.

There may be thousands that have been trained, but thousands have deserted. And they're not doing yet an effective job. So that's another critical piece.

BLITZER: All right. I suspect Danielle is not going to be satisfied with that answer, but I'll let her respond.

Go ahead, Danielle.

PLETKA: I think that it's very important to go to war, to go into conflict with one's allies. I think the president has made very clear we went into Iraq with a large number of allies. I'm really disappointed to see that Australia, Great Britain and any number of other countries, dozens of other countries are being dismissed as irrelevant. Yes, it would be very nice if we could always have the U.N. with us 100 percent. But we cannot afford to give either the United Nations or France and Germany a veto over defending our own national security.

RICE: Nobody said we should.

PLETKA: I would like to make one other point which I think is really important. The fact that the president is being accused of sending our soldier in unequipped is really troubling to me given that Senator Kerry has voted repeatedly against increased defense spending and against money that would further equip our soldiers.

BLITZER: All right. Let's let Susan respond to that.

Go ahead, Susan.

RICE: That's a canard. We sent our troops unfortunately into Iraq without body armor, without armored Humvees. That was part of the failed planning and the rush to war. We have gotten ourselves...

PLETKA: But Susan, why didn't he vote to pay for it then? I really want to know.

RICE: John Kerry voted...

PLETKA: Why did John Kerry vote against paying for body armor and for additional equipment?

RICE: I'm trying -- excuse me. I'm trying to answer the question.

PLETKA: Sorry.

RICE: John Kerry voted to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. But when it was apparent that the president had botched the road to war, had not brought our allies with us, had not equipped our forces adequately, had not had a plan to win the peace, he thought that it would not make sense to then go ahead and support the $87 billion.

I want to point out, however, that this was...

PLETKA: Susan, that is punishing our soldiers.

RICE: Excuse me. Excuse me. Talking about politics here, it was President Bush who threatened to veto the $87 billion resolution when it didn't suit his needs either.

So there was politics involved, but the point is John Kerry has always stood by our forces. He has been in the line of fire himself. He knows what that's about. But the point is, when you botch the war, you don't give a president a blank check to continue messing it up.

PLETKA: Right, and you don't...

RICE: His message was that President Bush needed to get back on track. He needed to provide equipment to our troops. He needed a plan to win the peace. And we're in the mess we're in because the president didn't do that.

BLITZER: All right.

Danielle, go ahead.

PLETKA: Wolf, I guess -- I guess what troubles me about what Susan just said -- and I'm sorry I tried to jump in and interrupt -- but, I mean, OK, John Kerry voted to support the war and he didn't like where it was going. That's understandable.

I'm not really sure where he's coming from on that. But the idea that he should therefore punish our troops for that by not voting to pay for body armor, bullets and the like is not consistent with the statements he's made about being for our veterans. It's not consistent with trying to support our troops no matter what. And that I find very troubling. It's the kind of flip-flop that we don't want to see from a leader of the United States.

BLITZER: In almost every speech the president makes, Susan, he makes that specific point, that -- that he voted for the war, that he voted against -- for the $87 billion, then he voted against the $87 billion. He says it's not as complicated as John Kerry wants it to be.

RICE: All right. Wolf, have you asked the president why he threatened to veto the $87 billion for political reasons?

The point here is that we need a plan to win the peace. President Bush took us to war without one. We are in a very dire situation as a consequence.

Do you realize that more American soldiers and servicemen and women, more American troops lost their lives in the month of July than in the month of June, in the deadly run-up to the handover? The situation in Iraq remains a mess. I think the real question for President Bush is whether he's prepared to admit to the American people that he made some grave mistakes in the way he went to war.

BLITZER: Danielle, we're almost out of time. I'll give you the last word.

PLETKA: You've caught me on this one...

(CROSSTALK)

RICE: Is he going to admit that, Danielle?

PLETKA: I think -- I think that the real question here is did the president do what was necessary to defend the American people? Did he act for our national security without worrying that he was going to get the say so of the government of France and go forward? Absolutely he did.

He wants us to pay for our American troops. He wants us to go forward and stick with us to the end, because that is what is right.

BLITZER: Well, we're out of time. But do you remember the president threatening to veto the $87 billion appropriations if he didn't get some -- some provision that he wanted?

PLETKA: Let me be honest. I can't answer that. I have no recollection of it whatsoever. But let me tell you...

RICE: Go check on it. We'll see.

PLETKA: ... if you vote against it, you don't really have much of a say in what the president's going to do.

BLITZER: All right. We're going to have to leave it there.

Susan Rice, thanks very much for joining us.

RICE: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Danielle Pletka, thanks very much for joining us as well.

PLETKA: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: We'll continue this discussion, no doubt, down the road. We'll continue our coverage right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Getting some more information now on General John Shalikashvili. Kathleen Koch is over at the Pentagon. She's following the story for us.

Kathleen, what else have you learned?

KOCH: Wolf, just a few minutes ago, I had a chance to speak with Pentagon officials who confirmed to us that General John Shalikashvili on Friday night suffered a severe stroke. Now, because of that, he was admitted to the Madigan Army Medical Center in that Tacoma, Washington. Right now, he remains in guarded condition in the intensive care unit -- Wolf.

BLITZER: General John Shalikashvili, the retired chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, former NATO commander, obviously very, very sick in Tacoma, Washington, in a hospital right now. We'll monitor this story for our viewers clearly throughout this day.

Thanks, Kathleen, very much.

That's our hour for this hour. I'll be back tomorrow at the same time.

Also back today, 5:00 p.m. Eastern, for "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." The uprising in Najaf and al-Sadr's defiance. We'll speak with former defense secretary, William Cohen. Also, a special interview with the prime minister of Poland, Marek Belka. He'll join me live on his meeting today over at the White House with President Bush. That's 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LIVE FROM" with Miles O'Brien and Betty Nguyen is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Tourist trappers, limos and detailed terror target information. Seized al Qaeda plans with chilling details, and a live news conference about security this hour by New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Training for terror. New tapes obtained by CNN of al Qaeda operations and tactics for attack.

O'BRIEN: Deadly dispute. A video game and six vicious beating deaths at the center of a case in court this hour. We'll bring that to you live as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just very, very happy that I see them already in two separate beds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Conjoined twins now separated. Their amazed mother talks about her 2-year-old boys and their recovery.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Betty Nguyen, in for Kyra Phillips. She's off today.

O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


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