Return to Transcripts main page

LOU DOBBS TONIGHT

U.N. Resolution Backs Transfer of Power to Iraq; July 1 Deadline to Secure Nation's Ports

Aired June 8, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush meets with world leaders, leaders who both supported and opposed him on the war against Saddam Hussein. President Bush predicts they all will now give their full support to a new U.N. resolution on Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. ENVOY TO THE UNITED NATIONS: This resolution makes clear that Iraq's sovereignty will be undiluted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: More violence in Iraq. A car bomb killed nine Iraqis in Mosul. Another bombing 200 miles away killed a U.S. soldier. We'll report form Iraq.

The legacy of Ronald Reagan and the lessons of Abraham Lincoln. Former New York Governor Mario Cuomo is my guest tonight. This leading Democrat will share his views with us on two Republicans, Ronald Reagan and Abraham Lincoln, the subject of his new book, "Why Lincoln Matters."

Our special report, Homeland Insecurity, why our most vulnerable targets for a terrorist attack may be our 361 seaports. We'll have a special report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you're a terrorist looking at targets, you're going to look in this direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: And I'm joined tonight by a Dartmouth economist who says I'm all wrong about the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Professor Matthew Slaughter is my guest.

And a moment in the sun, or at least a moment in between, for the planet Venus. We'll show you what the perfect alignment of two planets and a star looks like, Venus in transit.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, June 8. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening. The United Nations Security Council today unanimously approved a resolution that backs the transfer of power to Iraq's new government. President Bush had earlier predicted the 15-0 vote at the opening of the G-8 summit.

The president is meeting with leaders of the world's leading industrialized nations at Sea Island, Georgia. Senior White House Correspondent John King is with the president in Georgia and has the report -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, the president just moments ago celebrating that unanimous vote at the United Nations Security Council and doing so during a meeting with one of his critics of the Iraq war, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin.

Mr. Bush calling the Security Council's unanimous endorsement of that resolution embracing the political timetable and transition in Iraq, a victory for the Iraqi people. He says Iraq will soon have sovereignty, soon have its own army under its own control.

President Putin also saying significantly that, in his view, this new resolution takes the burden off the United States and puts it directly on the Iraqi people as they now try to prove they're on a path to democracy. President Putin, though, also saying he believes it will be some time before you see significant improvements in Iraq.

Another politician here for the G-8 meeting who is relieved as well by this U.N. vote is the British prime minister, Tony Blair. Embattled back home, criticized for standing with Mr. Bush, despite public opinion in his country and across Europe. Mr. Blair earlier today saying this new vote by the United Nations Security Council sends a powerful message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: For the Iraqis themselves, this means that they now realize they have a unified world community on their side helping them towards the stability and the democracy and the prosperity they want to see for themselves.

And I think for the terrorists and the fanatics, the former regime elements that are trying to stop this process of democracy, I think they now know that it isn't just the United States and the U.K. or, indeed, the multinational force. It's the whole of the United Nations and the world community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Unity is the president's script at this G-8 meeting. The German chancellor, Gerhard Schroder, earlier today sticking to that script as well. Not a mention from Mr. Schroder of his fierce opposition to the war on Iraq. Instead, he, too, complimenting the United Nations on the work on the resolution, saying he views it as a good foundation now to get Iraq on the path to democracy.

So, Lou, from the president tonight, Vladimir Putin just moments ago, Gerhard Schroder, as you see earlier in the day, trying to project the image that the bitter debate over the war is over and that you will have unanimity here at the G-8 meeting, not the divide, the exact 4-4 divide, as these countries in this meeting divided over whether to go to war in Iraq -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much.

John King reporting from Sea Island, Georgia.

The U.N. Security Council passed that resolution after France and Germany agreed to a compromise over Iraqi troops. Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth live now at the United Nations -- Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, an ambassador just moments ago called this resolution and its passage an enormous underpinning for the future of Iraq. And, yes, there was a lot of debate in the last few weeks before a 15-0 vote this afternoon here in New York.

The Security Council wrestled with the question of security and whether Iraq could tell the multinational force led by an American commander what to do. In the end, no veto provision was put in the resolution. The U.S. ambassador to the U.N., John Negroponte, is soon bound for Baghdad to be the ambassador there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEGROPONTE: With today's vote, we acknowledge an important milestone. By June 30, Iraq will reassert its sovereignty. A step forward on the path towards a Democratically elected government. The unanimous passage of Resolution 1546 is a vivid demonstration of broad, international support for -- and I quote from the text -- "a federal, democratic, pluralist and unified Iraq in which there is full respect for political and human rights."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: China and others are praising the unity here at the Security Council, but it's not clear that any one of these countries is ready to send more troops to help the U.S. and the British forces there. Right now, Germany and China promising financial aid for reconstruction -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Richard.

Richard Roth at the United Nations.

Ambassador Negroponte with a very quick turnaround as he will be moving from his post at the United Nations to ambassador to Iraq.

In Iraq today, coalition forces rescued three Italian hostages who had been held for almost two months. U.S. and Polish Special Forces launched that raid south of Baghdad. They also rescued a Polish citizen who was captured last week.

Harris Whitbeck reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ... the coalition forces. The hostages were all released unharmed. The three Italians are on their way back to Italy, and the Pole, we understand, is at the Polish Embassy here in the Iraqi capital.

General Sanchez said the former hostages are in good health and that they are now in very good hands. Meanwhile, more violence in Iraq today, t car bombs.

One in the City of Baqubah, about 30 kilometers north of Baghdad, occurred outside a U.S. military installation, killing two people, one Iraqi civilian, one U.S. soldier, and wounding 16 others. Most of those who were wounded were Iraqi contract workers -- civilian contract workers -- who were waiting outside the base to report for work.

Meanwhile, in the northern City of Mosul, another car bomb. This outside the city hall there. Coalition officials believe that it was targeting a convoy carrying members of the local governing council. Nine people killed there and 25 wounded.

Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: In Saudi Arabia today, radical Islamist terrorists shot and killed an American contract worker. The American was inside his home in Riyadh when gunmen fired several shots from outside. The man worked for a defense contractor, Vinnell, which train Saudi Arabia's National Guard. The attack comes three days after radical Islamist terrorists shot and killed a British journalist and critically wounded another.

Still ahead here tonight, former coalition adviser Larry Diamond says the U.N. Security Council vote today gives Iraq's new government legitimacy. He is our guest next.

And the Senate Judiciary Committee attacks Attorney General John Ashcroft on the abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN, JR. (D-DE), SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: There's a reason why we sign these treaties: to protect my son in the military. That's why we have these treaties, so when Americans are captured, they are not tortured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Exporting America. Dartmouth Professor Matthew Slaughter says for every jobs sent overseas, two more are created in this country, and he says I'm wrong about exporting America. He's my guest.

That and a great deal more still ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, our special report, Homeland Insecurity. We focus on defending our nation's 361 seaports from terrorist attack. The Homeland Security Department is working to fortify those ports to meet a July 1 deadline. But the rest of the world isn't moving as quickly on port security.

Casey Wian has the story from Long Beach, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is one of the Coast Guard's new weapons in the war on terror: a 450- horsepower pursuit boat that can outmaneuver most anything on the water. The Coast Guard has ordered 700 to improve security at the nation's ports.

At a maritime industry meeting in Southern California, the FBI warned of increased terrorist chatter.

LINAS DANILEVICIUS, FBI: If we can identify our vulnerabilities, we can hopefully set up a strategy to prevent an attack.

WIAN: The FBI says ports are vulnerable to a small explosives- laden boat similar to the 2000 attack on the USS Cole, explosives hidden in one of the nine million containers passing through U.S. ports each year and truck bombs at shipping terminals.

(on camera): Ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles are home to recreational boats, fishing vessels, cruise ships, giant oil and cargo tankers, military bases, even a mobile satellite launch platform. All of these are potential terrorist threats or targets.

(voice-over): About 40 percent of the water-borne cargo that enters the United States comes here.

WILLIAM ELLIS, SECURITY DIRECTOR, PORT OF LONG BEACH: Given that volume, obviously, we're a major area of concern, and, if you're a terrorist looking at targets, you're going to look in this direction. Hopefully, our security measures will deter anybody from coming in this direction.

WIAN: Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez wants more federal money for port security, including boosting the size of the Coast Guard by 40 percent.

REP. LORETTA SANCHEZ (D), CALIFORNIA: I have some longshoremen here in the Long Beach area who tell me, you know, it says there's supposed to be televisions in this container, but, when the container comes off, we see it has little breathing holes drilled into all around the container. Well, we know that what's in there are live people, you know, people without documents who are trying to get into our country. WIAN: Since September 11, ports have requested about a billion dollars a year in grants from the Department of Homeland Security but will receive less than 20 percent of that. The U.S. government and the United Nations have set a July 1 deadline for ports, terminals and ships to adopt new security procedures, everything from better fencing and lighting to background checks for crew members.

CAPT. PETER NEFFENGER, U.S. COAST GUARD: In just a two-and-a- half year period, we've been trying to put into place something that took many, many years to accomplish in the aviation world.

WIAN: The Coast Guard says all U.S. ports will meet the deadline, as will more than 90 percent of shipping terminals and U.S. flag vessels, but many foreign ships and ports are lagging.

CHRIS KOCH, PRESIDENT, WORLD SHIPPING COUNCIL: If those countries don't come into compliance in the near future, we do expect that there could be some consequences to the cargo that moves through such ports.

WIAN: Consequences that could include delays and higher costs for some imported goods.

Casey Wian, CNN, Long Beach, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The U.N. International Maritime Organization today criticized the world shipping industry. The group said the industry is failing to prepare for that July 1 deadline. The laws are described by the industry as the toughest security measures since World War II.

That brings us the to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Which do you think is the most likely terrorist target -- ports or shipping liners or passenger or freight rails? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

The Department of Homeland Security may be working to secure this country's ports. It is apparently not, however, concerned with putting Americans to work. CNN has learned that the Department of Homeland Security is exporting work to a cheap foreign labor market.

These photos posted on the Border Patrol Union's Web site show uniform shirts for the Border Patrol, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection, which is, as you see, a division of the Department of Homeland Security.

A spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council tells CNN that those uniform shirts are -- you guessed it -- made in Mexico.

A disturbing report tonight from Fort Stewart, Georgia. Thousands of National Guard and Army Reservists have been called up to serve this country in Iraq. Tonight, one of the soldiers who was injured while serving in Iraq says he and many other National Guardsmen are being treated like second-class soldiers. Gary Tuchman has the story from Hinesville, Georgia.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT voice-over): John Ramsey injured his shoulders and arms serving in Iraq and Kuwait. He's angry at the Army.

JOHN RAMSEY, ARMY VETERAN: The Army is no longer an army. It's a business. That's what it's come down to. It's a business.

TUCHMAN: Ramsey says he's not getting first-class attention in a military hospital because he was in the National Guard and not in the regular Army. He is one of hundreds of National Guard and Reserve soldiers at Fort Stewart, Georgia, who are on what the Army calls on medical hold.

They aren't ready to resume their normal duties, and, in most cases, they have to continue living at the fort to receive the Army's free medical treatment. Ramsey says he fulfilled his military commitment and wants to go home to his family in Florida, but the military won't authorize free medical treatment anywhere but Fort Stewart.

RAMSEY: There's been some points that I just wanted to quit, just give up and, you know, go home and figure out how to pay for it myself.

TUCHMAN: Fort Stewart's garrison commander, Colonel John Kidd, wasn't available for an on-camera interview, but did talk with us by phone.

COL. JOHN KIDD, FORT STEWART GARRISON COMMANDER: The system not in place to just allow soldiers to go home and sit at home, you know, and wait for their leg or there arm or shoulder to heal up.

TUCHMAN: Most of the medical hold patients live in air- conditioned trailers, four to a room, a step up from the nonair- conditioned cement barracks where they lived last year when many complaints started coming in, complaints that included charges of second-rate medical care for Reservists and Guardsmen.

The Army says an overwhelming patient load last year did, indeed, lead to troubling problems. But now...

KIDD: I can't say we're problem free here, but we've made some good efforts.

TUCHMAN: Not good enough, though, for some like John Ramsey.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Hinesville, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And other problems to put in perspective this evening. Members of the French media tonight are complaining about having to pay a $350 fee for the use of the press facilities at the G-8 summit in Seattle, Georgia.

The French press corps wrote letters of protest to the American Embassy in Paris and the French Embassy in Washington. That fee, by the way, covers the use of printers and Internet access as well as the reporter's food for the entire week. French and German reporters have complained that such a charge is unprecedented at a G-8 summit.

American organizers, however, say American taxpayers would be outraged if they were asked to foot those bills.

Just ahead, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approves a resolution backing the transfer of power in Iraq. Former coalition adviser Professor Larry Diamond joins us. He says Iraq's new government now has legitimacy.

And later, we'll hear from one college professor who says multinational corporations are really good for the U.S. economy and American workers.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest has done extensive research on multinational companies -- yes, U.S. multinational companies -- and the impact of outsourcing American jobs and the impact on this country's economy. He says multinationals have actually created two jobs in this country for every one that they've sent overseas to a cheap labor market.

Matthew Slaughter is associate professor at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth College, and Professor Slaughter joins us now.

Good to have you here.

MATTHEW SLAUGHTER, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, TUCK SCHOOL OF BUSINESS, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE: Thank you. Good to be here.

DOBBS: So you think I'm entirely wrong to have placed my concern with working Americans who are watching their jobs being outsourced?

SLAUGHTER: No, I think it's a legitimate concern, but I think it's important that we look at the comprehensive statistics that come out of the federal government.

DOBBS: Let's look about those statistics.

SLAUGHTER: Sure.

DOBBS: You look at statistics that suggest to you that U.S. multinationals are actually generating two jobs for every one they send overseas.

SLAUGHTER: Right.

DOBBS: Give us your best assessment, Professor. How in the world is that possible?

SLAUGHTER: So the dynamics of employment in these U.S.- headquartered multinational firms are far richer than the idea that every time they hire someone abroad, it must be the case that they are laying off someone in the United States.

DOBBS: What you call the substitution effect?

SLAUGHTER: Right. So the employment dynamics is a lot richer. If you think, for example, when a U.S.-headquartered multinational acquires a foreign company, perhaps because that company has access to consumers, good brand name, and that sort of thing, it's expanding employment abroad, and, a lot of times, that's going to increase the employment back in the United States for activities like management and accounting and research and development.

DOBBS: And the corollary -- the inverse corollary, as you economists like to speak of it, would be, it seems to me then, the more people we could export, more we jobs we can export overseas, the higher the unemployment rate would be in the United States.

SLAUGHTER: That's what comes from the comprehensive data. So, again, when you go to the...

DOBBS: Now, at some point, Professor, do you scratch your head and say, you know, this may be true within a certain limit, but we've got to kind or examine the inverse corollary.

SLAUGHTER: What I want to do first is get a handle on the statistics for all U.S. multinationals together, and those data are actually pretty clear. If we look at the 10 most recent years for which we have those data, for every one job created abroad in affiliates of U.S.-headquartered multinationals, we see almost two jobs created back in the U.S. in the parent companies.

DOBBS: What do you think of this -- what I consider to be a rather silly argument that for -- to offset concerns about the outsourcing of American jobs overseas to cheap labor markets, that there's such a thing as insourcing. That is the Bush administration in particular -- the Democrats are not particularly better on trade, I should make that clear, but the Bush administration in the campaign season has gotten downright inventive, suggesting that foreign investment in this country is the same thing as insourcing and a direct offset to outsourcing of American jobs. Do you -- what are your thoughts on that?

SLAUGHTER: I've two thoughts. One is, again, the data do show that the number of Americans who work for U.S. affiliates of foreign- owned companies has been going up a lot in the past 10, 20 years. So it's now a bit over six million workers who are employed by these U.S. affiliates. The second fact is I think it's -- you speak to a broader point, which is I think we need to focus not just on the numbers of jobs but the kinds of jobs, and an important fact...

DOBBS: Oh, but... SLAUGHTER: ... again that comes out of the data is both U.S.- headquartered multinationals and the U.S. affiliates of these foreign multinationals pay big wage premiums relative to the domestic firms in the U.S. economy.

DOBBS: And before we move to the quality of jobs issue, which is concerning, and I'm glad to hear it concerns you as well, the idea of six million jobs, the fact is that we have 10 million jobs overseas. But they're not directly comparable, and, when we talk about exporting jobs on this broadcast, we are talking about placing U.S. jobs with overseas jobs for the specific purpose of reducing wage costs and providing back export back to this country services and goods. To suggest that foreign direct investment in this country is a parallel or comparable seems to me to be straining credulity. And I'm saying it really nicely -- or as nicely as I can.

SLAUGHTER: Your point's well taken, though, which is these global-engaged companies -- they do a lot of things, so the affiliates operating in the United States -- a big part of what they do is they serve the domestic U.S. market, but a lot of these companies account for a lot of the exports going out of the United States as well.

DOBBS: You and I both -- well, let's go first -- let's go back to the point you raised, and that is an important -- very important point, the quality of jobs. Not only have we seen people lose their jobs, but now that they're being -- their duration of unemployment has been extended against historical standards, and because the jobs that they are finding are roughly 20 percent less than the one that they have lost due to outsourcing, what do you make of that trend and how seriously should we be taking that?

SLAUGHTER: Oh, I think very seriously. One fact that is known -- and you point to this -- is job transitions, whether they're related to outsourcing, whether they're related to technological change or whatever other forces, they tend to hurt individual workers at least initially. That's something we always need to worry about, regardless of the cause of the job dislocation.

And there's a broader issue, which I think that you speak to, which is, you know, the average worker in the United States today has a high school diploma and about one year of post-high school education. So, when we think about the good jobs and good wages that I think we're all striving in public policy to aim for, we realize that for the U.S. economy, there's a challenge of upgrading the skills of American workers and trying to raise their incomes, whether we have a lot of trade with the rest of the world or none of it.

DOBBS: And that is a point that seems to be eluding our policymakers, our lawmakers, and it really goes beyond an economics question, which is what many of us find confounding. It is a political question and a political judgment for this country. Yet the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, two administrations, the Clinton administration and this, have been absolute supporters of free trade at any cost. Outsourcing is just fine if a multinational wants to do it.

SLAUGHTER: Yes.

DOBBS: You have studied the issue. You've worked with multinational corporations. So I'm going to ask you a difficult question. Do you think it's time for our policymakers in this country, our political leaders, to understand that maybe, just maybe, the power of corporate America has no countervailing influence, that there is no opposition to it, and it's time for us to take seriously what may be egregious excesses and influence on the part of corporate America?

SLAUGHTER: So I'd say yes in the sense that I think we need to have a broader discussion about how we as a country are going to distribute the gains of globalization.

I'll be the first to tell you that countries like the United States generate big gains when we have more trade, more foreign direct investment, more immigration with the rest of the world, but there's now a lot of evidence that shows the majority of that gain that the U.S. economy is realizing is enjoyed directly by more skilled American workers and by corporations.

And when the average voter, like I said, who has about a high school degree and one year of post-high school education sees that they're getting very little direct benefit from globalization, we need to think a lot more outside the box, if you will, about what policy measures we need to undertake to have more Americans directly benefiting from this process.

DOBBS: Professor Matthew Slaughter, I thought we were going to be arguing. It turns out you and I agree on far more than I was led to believe.

SLAUGHTER: I think we do.

DOBBS: We appreciate your being here. We hope you'll come back.

SLAUGHTER: Thank you. Appreciate it.

DOBBS: Thanks a lot.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts, many of you wrote about yesterday's Supreme Court decision to open American roads to Mexican trucks as called for under the NAFTA agreement and affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Michael Keeley of Niwot, Colorado, "Lou, I am outraged. As American citizens, we are not only required to keep our vehicles inspected to keep them operating safely but are also required to meet rigid emission testing. But now we will allow Mexican truckers to come into this country without meeting those same standards."

Terry Anderson of Los Angeles, "What justice is this! Undocumented Mexican drivers without a license will be driving on our highways and displacing American drivers? Sounds like this decision was made by the WTO, not the Supreme Court." And Rick Morgan of Tucson, Arizona, "It just doesn't seem fair that our government requires so much from U.S. drivers and then lets foreign truckers run our roads. What are they thinking?"

Marsha Martin in Bloomington, Indiana, "I don't get it. In the last 10 years or more, it seems all of our manufacturing jobs are going to Mexico while more and more Mexicans are coming here."

And Bill Breaux of Houston, Texas, "I keep hearing about Iraqi sovereignty. Well, what about American sovereignty?"

Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. And when we continue here, a fiery exchange on Capitol Hill. Attorney General John Ashcroft, Senator Joe Biden square off over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners and what it could mean for our troops.

Then the planet Venus has a brilliant moment not in the sun, but between us and the sun. We have extraordinary pictures for you about an event more than a hundred years in the making.

And remembering Ronald Reagan. Former New York Governor Mario Cuomo will be here to share some of his memories of the president, his onetime political rival, and we'll be talking about his new book on another Republican president, "Why Lincoln Matters," now more than ever.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: On Capitol Hill today, Attorney General John Ashcroft faced tough questions about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. Members of the Senate judiciary committee pressed Ashcroft about a controversial policy paper prepared by attorneys for the Bush administration. That paper determined the president has the authority to order the torture of prisoners who are in U.S. custody. Attorney General Ashcroft refused to discuss the details of that particular memo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ASHCROFT, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: First of all, this administration has not ordered or...

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I'm not asking that, John. Excuse me. With all due respect, I want to know your opinion.

ASHCROFT: I won't issue or otherwise discuss hypotheticals. I'll leave it to the academics.

BIDEN: Let me see. Do you think this is justified?

It is not hypothetical.

ASHCROFT: That's not a hypothetical. That is a circumstance. That's the kind of circumstance that when it is referred to the justice department, we investigate and if there is a basis for prosecution, we would prosecute. We have investigated...

BIDEN: John, you sound like you're in the state department. Remember the old days when you were here looking for answers on this side?

ASHCROFT: I have a recollection of that.

BIDEN: Yes. Well, my time is up, I can see.

ASHCROFT: I condemn torture. I think...

BIDEN: So it is not justified, then?

ASHCROFT: I don't think it's productive let alone justified.

BIDEN: I don't either. By the way, there's a reason -- I'll conclude by saying there is a reason we sign these treaties. To protect my son in the military. That's why we have these treaties. So when Americans are captured they are not tortured. That's the reason in case anybody forgets it. That's the reason.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: We should point out that Attorney General John Ashcroft as well as Senator Biden has a son serving in the U.S. armed forces.

Joining me now from Washington for more on the hearings, justice correspondent Kelli Arena. Kelli, quite an exchange.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: As you can tell, that hearing was very contentious. Democratic senators pounded the attorney general demanding to know what legal advice the justice department gave the president about interrogations and whether, based on that guidance, the president issued an order that led to abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We know when we have these kinds of order, what happens. We get the stress test. We get the use of dogs. We get the forced nakedness that we've all seen.

ASHCROFT: First of all, let me completely reject the notion that anything that this president has done or the justice department has done has directly resulted in the kinds of atrocities which were cited. That is false.

ARENA: Stating firmly that the administration rejects torture, the attorney general said the justice department is investigating and will prosecute any abuses, but he refused to comment about memos to the White House on the issue.

ASHCROFT: I am refusing to disclose these memos because I believe it is essential to the operation of the executive branch that the president have the opportunity to get information from his attorney general that is confidential. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Without citing executive privilege, some senators say Ashcroft is in violation of the law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Frankly, that is what contempt of Congress is all about. You have to give us a specific legal authority which gives you the right to say no or the president has to claim privilege. You've done neither.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: CNN has obtained a copy of a March 2003 report that suggests that the president is not necessarily bound by anti-torture laws because of his authority as commander-in-chief. Still, Ashcroft insists that the president never issued an order immunizing interrogators from prosecution.

DOBBS: Kelli, thank you very much.

A reminder to vote in our poll. Which do you think is the most likely terrorist targets? Ports or shipping airliners, passenger or freight rails. Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have results later for you in the broadcast.

Also ahead tonight, breathtaking photos of a truly remarkable event more than 120 years in the making.

And remembering President Reagan. Thousands of mourners paying respects to the 40th president. Former New York governor, Mario Cuomo joins me. We'll be talking about some of his memories of the president and his rivalry with the great communicator and his new book about another Republican president. Abraham Lincoln. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Stocks today closed higher on Wall Street. The Dow rose for a third straight day. The Dow up more than 41 points. The Nasdaq rose nearly 3. The S&P 500 up slightly. The Bush administration now boasting about the country's economic performance but Democratic rivals already saying it's not good enough. Christine Romans is here.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, two very different views of the economy. Treasury Secretary John Snow today said the president's tax cuts have revitalized the economy. He said it's almost as if a light switch has been turned on. He says, boy, what a difference a year makes. Roger Altman, Kerry's adviser, hammering on the quality of jobs created under the president, though, and talking about the continued outsourcing of jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. He calls the president's tax cuts dangerous and says the economy under his watch has been a disaster -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, there's no question that this economy is improving, though. Unemployment, while it remains at 5.6 percent, we've seen over a million jobs created so far this year.

ROMANS: But Kerry's advisers will point out the president is far short where job growth should be at this stage of an expansion. Roger Altman says it should be about 6 million jobs should have been created or 4.5 million by now. The president's lost 1.2 million. He says that's a 6 million deficit in his book.

DOBBS: Roger Altman economics adviser to Senator John Kerry and also that figure based on the projections by Gregory Mankiw at the president's Council of Economic Advisers. I'm sure he's wishing that he had never made quite those same projections. Thanks, Christine Romans.

We're taking a look now at some of your thoughts on the middle- class squeeze. Bernadette McTarney of Monmouth Junction, New Jersey. "Lou, we're all complaining about paying $2 a gallon for gas. What about $4.25 for a gallon of milk. How do folks with children afford this?"

Harold Richman of Winnipeg, Canada. "I think you should remind Alan Greenspan that raising interest rates is a sure way to slow the economy. Look how long we've had to wait for the economy to improve with rates at the lowest point in 40 years."

Also on remembering President Ronald Reagan. Rosemary Fahey of Tustin, California. "Lou, many thanks for providing a balanced perspective in your interview and retrospective on President Reagan and his economic policies. Reagan did bring America a sense of vision and integrity." Send us your thoughts, loudobbs@CNN.com.

For the first time in 122 years, Venus came into perfect alignment with the earth and the sun and transited for about six hours. People around the world gathered to see this remarkable sight which only occurs about twice every century.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): South Africans celebrated the first Venus transit in more than a century. In Cairo, astronomy fans gathered at the ancient pyramids, the same location where the stars were charted thousands of years ago. From Australia, this image of modern day travel as Venus transits the sun, just as it did 235 years ago when James Cook explored the South Pacific and discovered the land down under.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is just extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. It gives you a wonderful sense of perspective.

DOBBS: Japanese school children squinted through special glasses, cheering as Venus came into their view. In England, people gathered at the Royal Observatory to catch a glimpse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You see this little beauty spot travel across the face of the sun. It is historic and it's rather exciting.

DOBBS: On the east coast of this country, viewing conditions turned out to be perfect.

DAVID DEVORKIN, AIR & SPACE MUSEUM: It was far more than I thought I would ever see. It's just marvelous.

DOBBS: For scientists the Venus transit caused some reflection.

CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, AMERICAN MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY: In 1882, the last Venus transit, it was cutting-edge astronomy. Today it is just a beautiful link to our past and a foreshadowing of the future. Who knows where astronomy will be 122 years from now.

DOBBS: And 122 years ago who would have thought we would have this image, a time lapse view of the Venus transit captured by NASA's Trace Space Craft orbiting high above earth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And a somewhat earthy observation about the transit of Venus coming from none other than Mark Twain. He said, "an occultation of Venus is not half so difficult as an eclipse of the sun but because it comes seldom the world thinks it is a grand thing." I don't often disagree with Mark Twain but it is still a grand thing. By the way, the next Venus transit, June 6, 2012.

When we continue, remembering Ronald Reagan. I will be talking with former governor Mario Cuomo. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We have this just in. President Bush, with Russian President Vladimir Putin, making comments on the U.N. security council's unanimous approval of the resolution recognizing the interim government in Iraq. President Bush's comments made just moments ago at the G-8 meeting at Sea Island, Georgia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The vote today in the United Nations security council was a great victory for the Iraqi people. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the international community showed that they stand side by side with the Iraqi people. The U.N. security council resolution supports the interim government, supports free elections, supports the multinational force. America supports strongly the idea of a free society in the midst of hatred and intolerance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Former coalition adviser Larry Diamond, scheduled to be here on the program. He was unable to get here. We hope to have Professor Diamond join us on a broadcast soon.

In Simi Valley today, tens of thousands of people showed their respects and paid tribute to Ronald Reagan. Frank Buckley join us from Simi Valley -- Frank. FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, an incredible outpouring for the president continuing here at the Reagan Library in Simi valley. We can show you inside, right now the people who continue to pass by the casket of President Ronald Reagan. They are going by, we are told, at a rate of approximately 2,000 to 3,000 people per hour. By the end of the viewing period which ends at 10:00 p.m. local time here, officials believe more than 100,000 people will have paid their respects.

They extended the time from 6:00 p.m. to 10 p.m., we're told, by family members to make sure that everyone who made an effort to come see the casket would have an opportunity to do so. Among the people coming here today to pay their respects is Senator John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic nominee for president. He spent approximately one minute before the casket, placing his hand over his heart at one point in a civilian salute. He closed his eyes, and he crossed himself. Finally, Lou, we're told that in a statement attributed to Nancy Reagan that, apparently, she's been moved by the coverage of what she's been seeing. She says, about the outpouring, "it is unbelievable what I am seeing on TV." She described it as incredible -- Lou.

DOBBS: Frank Buckley, thank you.

My next guest says it was an honor to know the late president. Former New York Governor Mario Cuomo's political career overlapped that of President Reagan's and while their political ideals often differed, some would say even clashed, the governor says Reagan was the nation's most beloved president. Cuomo's love for another president is the subject of his new book, "Why Lincoln Matters Now More Than Ever, A Look at the Lessons, Legacy and the Real Quotations of Abraham Lincoln." Mario Cuomo joins us. Good to have you here.

As we are looking back now over the course of the Reagan presidency, his contributions, how significant, because you are, obviously, on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Give us your assessment of what it was like, if you will, to be rivals politically and to work with him as governor of New York state.

MARIO CUOMO, FMR. NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Looking back, I think what the Reagan presidency proved is timing is everything. He was exactly the right person at exactly the right time. We were coming out of a period of malaise. Things were not going well economically. The Iranian hostages was a problem. People were down. It was the 70s. We were a long way from struggling back to a strong economy. And here came this bright, charming man with a reputation already built into the movies, not to mention his governorship who was about as appealing, as non-menacing, as affable, as sweet and as simple, even to the point of being simplistic, telling the American people, look. I have all the solutions you need. We're going to cut your taxes very deeply. We have a lot of money into defense. That's going to scare the Ruskies into surrendering. And everything will be great.

They said if you cut taxes and put money in defense, how are we going balance the budget? He said I'll balance it in three years through the magic of supply side. What is that magic? Well people get so excited investing their money that they say, well, he was off by 2 trillion dollars. But for the moment, it was perfect. And he never lost that popularity because it's what the country wanted, needed, loved. He wasn't really a supply sider, because after he made that tax cut, he got into terrible trouble. The Stockman's story, Darman, all admitted it in books later. And he had to raise taxes six different times. So, he wasn't a supply sider. He was a repentant supply sider.

DOBBS: You know, when a man of his capacity and his standing and who did so much for the country dies, the partisanship, if you will, the polarization asserts itself. But the fact is that, as you say, he was the right man at the right time. But there are people who will just resent the idea he was not a true free trader because he brought on at least four times import controls of one sort or the other. He was a man of some great pragmatism.

CUOMO: As a governor he signed one of the most liberal abortion bills in history at the state level and raised taxes and raised taxes as a president over and over. His appeal is not to the mechanic or the academician or the historian who studies all the numbers. Because, there you'd have to stay he was terrible to states and local governments. He cut the tax at the top and forced the increase in taxes at the regressive level, sales taxes, property all over the United States sales tax went up, property tax. The workers' taxes went up.

Lincoln believed in working the society from the bottom up. He believed you water the leaves and the roots will grow. He failed in a lot of ways, but nobody remembers that. They remember his lovable, affable personality. And I think that's nice.

DOBBS: And to hear these nice things from a Democratic governor who was frustrated, I'll put it that way, with his administration more than one time, I think, probably speaks volumes to his contributions and his standing and yours, if I may say, governor, as well. You also point out President Reagan misquoting, certainly not by design, Abraham Lincoln at the outset of your book. And I will tell you the truth. I actually thought some of those quotes were exactly the words of Abraham Lincoln.

CUOMO: Yes. Well, Lou, he got it wrong. They were the words of a Protestant minister as I point out in book. What I'm amused at is, I wonder how many other things he quoted over eight years as president weren't exactly correct. His legacy -- look, he's a little like Rudy Giuliani, if you think about it.

Rudy Giuliani, became an unshakeable instant idol and it only took four or five days. Why, because he was there at the right moment and demonstrated exactly what the American people wanted, the courage, strength, resilience. His record of mayor doesn't count. He will be able to run for president, anything he wants to run for on the basis of what he did for the American people at that critical moment. And Reagan did it for eight years. As far as I was concerned as a governor he killed us. He cut our money for education, for healthcare, for housing. He made taxes go up at the local level everywhere. He gave us the biggest debt until President Bush set a new record for us recently. But that's not going to matter historically. Historically he will be on the $10 bill, the $5 bill. He'll be on Rushmore. He will get the whole treatment, and he deserve it is.

DOBBS: And the fact that a man, whether it be Rudy Giuliani, Mario Cuomo, Ronald Reagan. A political leader at the right place at the right time still has to demonstrate that capacity that character and courage for the challenges. And it makes the moment all the more important. It is a wonderful book, governor. I love it. I appreciate you being here to talk about it.

And where did you get the idea of Abraham Lincoln?

CUOMO: I'll tell you where I got it. I had done a book, "Lincoln on Democracy" some years ago and was asked to do another one. I said, I'm not a historian. I'm not going to do Lincoln's shoes, Lincoln stomach aches, Lincoln speeches. But then on the first me normal of 9/11 the three politician, governor, mayor and former mayor, Rude Giuliani were called upon as to speak as to the relevance of 9/11, and what it meant. And they chose not to speak, instead, they read Lincoln. I said to myself, if you're going to read Lincoln, in an attempt to give relevance to 9/11 why don't you ask them about preemptive war, why don't ask about this budget where you're doing these huge tax cut that is are going to the top 1 percent, 2 percent of the people. Why don't you ask them about religion, et cetera, et cetera. That's what I did. I asked Lincoln, I got his answers. I put it in a little book for all to read.

DOBBS: And the governor, terrific author as he is, does manage to put the greatest Republican of them all on record against contemporary challenges for this administration and for all of us in this day and age. Governor, come back soon. It's always great to have you here.

CUOMO: Thanks for having me.

DOBBS: Mario Cuomo. Still ahead, the results of the poll tonight. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. Forty-five percent of you say our ports or shipping are the most likely terrorist targets, 22 percent say airliners, 33 percent say passenger or freight rails. Let's hope there is no correct answer to that in reality.

Thanks for being with us tonight. For all us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming right up.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com