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Interview with Howard Dean; Sivits Receives Maximum Penalty; Democratic Party Determined To Lessen Nader Factor

Aired May 19, 2004 - 19:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Anderson Cooper.
Controversy swirling about an attack in Iraq, did U.S. forces hit their intended target? 360 starts right now.


COOPER (voice-over): Dozens dead in an Iraq attack. The U.S. says they were foreign fighters. Some Iraqis claim it was a wedding party.

More violence in Gaza as the U.S. steps up criticism of Israel's military moves.

Jeremy Sivits receives the maximum sentence for his part in the Iraqi prison scandal. We'll talk with the attorney for the soldier he blames for the abuse.

Is the Democratic Party out to embrace then destroy Ralph Nader? We'll talk live with former presidential candidate Howard Dean.

A California teen takes the stand for more dramatic testimony in the alleged rape on tape trial.

And, genius or madness, it's all in your brain. Can psychosis actually enhance your creativity?


COOPER: Good evening.

We begin with a deadly air strike in Iraq and a dispute over exactly who was attacked. Some Iraqis say U.S. forces opened fire on a wedding party killing more than 40 people. The Pentagon says it was not a party and the U.S. had the right target.

All this comes, of course, hours after the court martial of this man, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, the first soldier to stand trial for the prisoner abuse scandal.

We begin with the air strike and CNN's Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.


JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These Iraqis say the bodies they are burying are victims of a U.S. air strike against a wedding party in western Iraq, a characterization the U.S. is disputing.

This man says a plane came and struck at the wedding and killed the whole family at three o'clock in the morning.

Another man says 26 people were killed from one family and five of the same family are seriously injured. The dead included women and children and numbered more than 40 according to accounts that were not disputed by the U.S. military.

The air strike occurred in a remote desert region about 15 miles from the Syrian border, an area popular with smugglers and under constant surveillance by U.S. troops looking for foreign fighters trying to slip into Iraq.

A statement from the U.S. Central Command says that during "a military operation against a suspected foreign fighter safe house, coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided." It said coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, two million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a SATCOM radio.

With the U.S. image already tarnished by the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of American soldiers, the top U.S. military spokesman, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt was quick to appear on Arab television denying the U.S. might have mistaken traditional celebratory gunfire for hostile fire. "I cannot prove it was a wedding and neither can you" he told the Al-Jazeera anchor who asked if it might have been a misunderstanding.


MCINTYRE: At this point, the Pentagon is not saying that there will be a formal investigation of the incident but with so many Iraqis already believing the worst about the U.S. military there will be a lot of pressure for the U.S. to back up its claim that this was a legitimate military target -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre live from the Pentagon thanks Jamie.

In a makeshift Baghdad courtroom today, the U.S. military justice system in action for the first court martial in the prison abuse scandal. Specialist Jeremy Sivits pled guilty, broke down twice as he described the brutal beatings some of the prisoners received and the acts of sexual humiliation the soldiers photographed. Sivits was sentenced to the maximum, a year in prison, a demotion in rank and discharge for bad conduct.

Before the court martial three other soldiers were arraigned on similar charges of abuse but they opted not to enter pleas before a pretrial hearing that's going to happen next month.

Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill today, the top U.S. commanders, the top two U.S. commanders in Iraq, along with a new commander of the Abu Ghraib Prison testified about the scandal.

General John Abizaid, General Ricardo Sanchez and Major General Geoffrey Miller answered questions from the Senate Armed Services Committee. They defended their handling of the scandal and said they never ordered anyone to mistreat prisoners. The top military brass say the abuse will not detract from their mission in Iraq.


GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We should not kid ourselves about the violent times ahead yet we should also understand that despite the images of Abu Ghraib and burning Humvees that constantly play on our media screens we are winning the battle against extremism.


COOPER: During today's proceedings, Senator John Warner, the chairman of the committee, revealed Pentagon investigators have found more photos of abuse. He didn't disclose exactly what the photos show.

More on the abuse scandal a little later on 360, I'm going to talk with the lawyer of the accused ringleader Specialist Charles Graner who faced arraignment today.

President Bush is urging restraint and respect, his words, for innocent lives after a deadly attack in southern Gaza. Palestinian hospital sources say at least 18 people were killed, many of them children, after Israeli forces fired into a crowd of Palestinians marching to protest Israel's incursion into a refugee camp.

The attack met international condemnation. Just about 90 minutes ago, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution calling on Israel to stop demolishing homes in southern Gaza. The U.S. abstained on that resolution.

With the latest on the violence here's CNN's Matthew Chance.


MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the march to Rafa, a peaceful if angry demonstration against Israel's military. In the skies above a single Israeli helicopter gunship launches flares at first to protect itself then a rocket.

Among the casualties are unarmed civilians and a number of children only the latest carnage, say Palestinian officials that Israel's army has inflicted upon the people here.

GHASSAN KHATIB, PALESTINIAN LABOR MINISTER: Well, this most recent and most vicious Israeli crime of shelling by missiles a peaceful demonstration is an indicator to the real intentions of the Israeli army, which is simply trying to effect the maximum casualties of the Palestinian people regardless whether they are civilians or otherwise. CHANCE: From the Israeli government an expression of deep sorrow for the loss of innocent life but officials are insisting the rocket was aimed at open ground and was meant to disperse the crowd not kill them.

RA'ANAN GISSIN, SENIOR SHARON ADVISER: Sometimes the loss of life is unavoidable here and sometimes they are staged. We know very well that the area where the incident occurred today was saturated with explosive charges, like in Jenin, placed before the crowd, so we're investigating that possibility as well.

CHANCE: There has been international condemnation of Israel's tough military action in Rafa. The White House, mindful of Israeli security, has been among the critics but this latest bloodshed has provoked new outrage.

(on camera): Israel's military says it's launched a full investigation into what happened here that there is a possibility one of its tanks fired on what it believed was an abandoned building and caused these casualties but that's unlikely to convince the many here who believe Israel's military in Gaza has abandoned restraint.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Gaza.


COOPER: Well back here in the U.S. the violence of 9/11 revisited today as the 9/11 Commission holds its second day of hearings in New York. In the hot seat the city's former Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

CNN's Deborah Feyerick has that.


DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even if New York City had been warned about attacks on the World Trade Center, Rudy Giuliani says firefighters and police trained and responded exactly as they should have.

RUDY GIULIANI, FMR. NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: If that information had been given to us or more warnings had been given in the summer of 2001, I can't honestly tell you we would have done anything differently.

FEYERICK: The former mayor was repeatedly praised by commission members for his handling of the tragedy but grieving families shouted him down, one mother calling the ex-mayor incompetent. Others criticized the panel for being political insiders and not asking hard questions.

BEVERLY ECKE, HUSBAND KILLED AT WTC: The fact that they're not going to hold anybody accountable, they keep saying that, continues to frustrate me because it sends the wrong message that it's OK to make a mistake. FEYERICK: Giuliani said the city received terror warnings almost every day beginning in 1997 but the big concern for emergency responders suicide bombers and a chemical or biological attack.

JERRY HAUER, FMR. DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF EMERGENCY MGT.: Everyone thought we were crazy for preparing for terrorism.

FEYERICK: Commission members continued hammering away at the city's chain of command. The city's current mayor argued New York's not failing its citizens, Congress is. New York State gets about $5.50 a person to fight terror, North Dakota $30 a head, and $101 for people in American Samoa.

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: This is pork barrel politics at its worst. It is the kind of short-sighted me first nonsense that gives Washington a bad name.

FEYERICK: The head of homeland security testifying he's working to fix that.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We would advance the cause of enhancing security a lot faster. It would be a lot stronger if we were able to direct more resources to areas where the potential loss of life is the greatest.


FEYERICK: The commission plans to come out with its report this summer. Former Mayor Giuliani urged compassion and understanding reminding commission members, in his words, the enemy is not each other -- Anderson.

COOPER: A dramatic day of testimony. Thanks very much, Deborah.

After today's hearing I spoke with 9/11 Commission member, former Illinois Governor James Thom.


COOPER: Some of the families today, who were speaking out while Giuliani was speaking who were shouting out, screaming, saying that you and the other commission members aren't asking tough enough questions, is that fair?

JAMES R. THOMPSON (R), 9/11 COMMISSION: I don't think that's fair. We can't ask every question any family member would like asked. They've got hundreds and thousands of questions.

Some of them will never be satisfied with any of the answers because they've got their mind made up. I understand that but that doesn't mean that your opinion on everything is going to be valid.

COOPER: One commission member called Mayor Bloomberg's emergency response plan a prescription for confusion. I mean is New York ready to respond to another attack?

THOMPSON: I think New York is far more ready to respond to another attack than they were on September 11th.

COOPER: Far ready, not necessarily ready.

THOMPSON: Far more ready. Well, you'll never be ready, first of all because you don't know what kind of attack is going to come next. I mean you can't take all the experience of September 11th and apply it to an attack that utilizes a nuclear device or a chemical device or a biological device. That's going to present different kinds of challenges.

Perhaps the next explosion or the next attack will come over a much wider geographical area than that confined attack on the World Trade Towers. I t may come in multi cities across the United States at once. You just don't know so you can't ever say we're safe. We'll never be safe but New York is safer, most big cities in the U.S., all big cities in the U.S. I think, are safer than they were two and a half years ago.

COOPER: Great. Governor Thompson thanks very much.

THOMPSON: Thanks, Anderson.


COOPER: The Pentagon preparing for the worst, that story tops our look at news right now "Cross Country."

The Pentagon stages a biological, chemical and nuclear training exercise to practice emergency response systems.

President Bush says he is concerned that gas has soared to more than $2 per gallon but he says he will not tap into emergency oil reserves because it would compromise the war on terror. Instead, he's calling on Congress to pass his energy plan.

Washington, now, face-to-face Ralph Nader and John Kerry meet for an hour at Kerry's campaign headquarters. According to Kerry spokesmen, the two talked about campaign finance reform and corporate responsibility but stayed away from discussing the war in Iraq and Nader's status in the race, more on that later with former Governor Howard Dean.

And, in Kansas City, Missouri flash floods, at least 20 people were rescued after heavy rain overnight caused flash flooding. The fire department received 32 distress calls in a four hour period early this morning. No deaths or injuries are reported.

That's a quick look at stories right now "Cross Country."

Who is she and where is her family? This little girl abandoned more than two weeks ago. Police are asking for your help to bring this unidentified 3-year-old back home.

Plus tonight, unlocking the secrets of the brain, what's the best way to improve your own creativity? Some experts weigh in.

And Governor Howard Dean joins me live to talk Kerry, Nader and the war, all that ahead.

First your picks the most popular stories right now on


COOPER: A little girl has been in foster care for two weeks since she was abandoned in Baltimore by a man who said he was her father. She's three years old, knows her first name and where she used to live and she's lonely and scared. Now police in two cities are working to reunite the little girl with her mother.

CNN's Jason Carroll picks up her story.


JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She says her name is Courtney. Like most children, she's quick to smile when asked about a toy but tears come just as fast when asked about her mother.

Baltimore's Department of Social Services is trying to figure out who her mother and father are. Courtney says she's three years old and from Brooklyn, New York.

SUE FITZSIMMONS, BALTIMORE DEPT. OF SOCIAL SERVICES: She doesn't know her last name. She doesn't know her address. She doesn't know her parents' first name and last name. She doesn't know her phone number.

CARROLL: Baltimore authorities say a man left Courtney with a stranger two weeks ago.

FITZSIMMONS: A woman was approached by a man with a child who said this was his daughter and he was living in an abandoned warehouse with her. He's attempting -- he was from New York. He's attempting to get, find someone who would cash some money orders for him so he could rent an apartment and asked her if she would care for the child.

CARROLL: Social workers hope putting Courtney on TV will help them find a relative to take care of her. Until then she'll stay in foster care.


CARROLL: A spokesman for the New York City Police Department says no one has filed a missing person's report on Courtney and they have no leads at this time. Baltimore Police say they have no leads either -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, someone must know who that little girl is. Hopefully they'll see this.

CARROLL: Hopefully someone does and will come forward.

COOPER: All right, Jason thanks very much.

Checking some stories right now around the world, let's take a look at the "Up Link."

Tehran, Iran, tens of thousands of Iranians protest outside the British Embassy denouncing damage done to a Shiite Muslim shrine during fighting between American soldiers and militiamen loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. This is the largest in a series of protests in Iran which is strongly opposed, of course, to the U.S. and British presence in Iraq.

New Delhi, India, new government. Manmohan Singh has been named the new prime minister of India. Singh is an Oxford educated economist who was finance minister in the 1990s. He got the job after Congress Party leader Sonia Gandhi declined it. Gandhi will remain party leader.

In London, power protest, two men, members of a fathers' rights organization were arrested after throwing purple powder at British Prime Minister Tony Blair during a Q&A session at the House of Commons. The powder was later identified as corn flour. No one was injured.

That's a look at tonight's "Up Link."

360 next, the fine line between genius and madness, one boy's remarkable story, it might actually help you tap into your own creative potential, part of our special series "Unlocking the Secrets of the Brain."

Also tonight, Charles Graner, the man accused of being the ringleader at Abu Ghraib Prison, what's his defense? His lawyer joins me live.

And a little later, Howard Dean hits the campaign trail. Can he deliver the Nader vote to John Kerry? He'll be here live to talk about it.

And, an airline giving out free plane tickets for being nice, there's got to be a catch, we're going to take a look at that coming up.


COOPER: That is not an audio mistake. This is music of a different wave. You're listening to music being created by the minds of people attending the Cyborg-D (ph) concert in Toronto where their brainwaves were actually converted into musical notes. That's the sound you're actually hearing.

Tonight we tune into a different aspect of the mind as we continue our weeklong series "Unlocking the Secrets of the Brain." When Aristotle proclaimed that no great genius is without a mixture of insanity he must have known thousands of years ago that there was something to this curious connection. Flash forward to today as scientists continue to study the science behind the muse.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER (voice-over): From artist Vincent Van Gogh's "Starry Strokes" to mathematician John Nash's window scribbles, as see in the film "A Beautiful Mind," in the works of brilliant minds throughout history creativity and mental illness have often crossed paths.

CAREN LERMAN, SON'S AUTISTIC: I feel as though his artwork is a window into his soul.

COOPER: Caren Lerman's son Jonathan may not speak like other 16- year-old boys but with a pencil in hand he can communicate a world of knowledge and unending creativity. Jonathan is an autistic savant.

LERMAN: Through Jonathan's art we see that he's taking in a lot more than we ever realized and I think he feels things even more keenly than we do.

COOPER: Jonathan began sketching when he was ten. Today his works sell for thousands of dollars.

LERMAN: He wants to be like everybody else and he knows he isn't. It's abstract for him to say that verbally, you know, that he's lonely but he's letting us know this way.

COOPER: But scientists are wondering how we can emulate Jonathan's level of creativity by studying how autism and other mental illnesses, like psychosis, can increase a person's potential for creativity.


COOPER: Harvard professor Dr. Shelley Carson recently completed a study which uncovered a link between creativity and mental illness. The connection, both highly creative people and psychosis prone people have reduced levels of what doctors call latent inhibition, that is, they can't ignore all the extraneous and irrelevant things that happen in the environment around them. And a possible explanation for this, dopamine.

CARSON: Reduced latent inhibition is associated with higher levels of dopamine in the mesolimbic system of the brain.

COOPER: So, depending on your level of intelligence and dopamine absorbing the information around you may actually fuel creativity or madness.


COOPER: I want to get some more insight right now into the creative minds of autistic people and how all of us can perhaps tap into our own creativity. I talked with Allan Snyder, director of the Center for the Mind in Australia.


COOPER: You claim that you have made a creativity machine that can spark people's creativity. What is this machine?

ALLAN SNYDER, DIRECTOR FOR THE CENTER FOR THE MIND, AUSTRALIA: Well, first of all, look, the biggest block to creativity is the fact that people don't see what's out there. They're in a sense blinded by their expertise and people are normally good at juggling concepts but what they're bad at is seeing the world the way it really is.

COOPER: So, you've looked at autistic savants and looked at the way they see things as sort of a model. What can we learn from the way they are creative?

SNYDER: Most of us look upon art, music, mathematics as being the height of intellectual creativity. It takes years and years to do these things and practice but you get a -- you get, you know, a 3- year-old girl who draws like Leonardo da Vinci without any training, can't recognize her mother from the nurse and how do you explain that? And the way we explain that is that they see what's actually out there. They draw what the mind sees whereas a normal person draws what they know.

COOPER: Now you have a machine. You created this creativity machine, so called, that basically shuts down someone's left frontal temporal lobe for a short amount of time. Why are you doing that?

SNYDER: Well, what we try to do is simulate this part of the brain that's damaged in autistic savants so that we too can see the world momentarily the way it actually is.

COOPER: Your machine essentially is shocking someone's -- their front left temporal lobe, shutting it down so that their brain becomes more like an autistic savant for a short amount of time is that correct?

SNYDER: Yes, well not shocking it. These are gentle magnetic pulses in the left temporal lobe that simulate sort of damage that you sometimes see with autistic savants.

COOPER: And you ask your participants to draw a picture of a dog before, during and after this procedure. On the left we're seeing the before. It's a rather primitive one as the process is going and even after the process. The one on the far right is after this process is over. It's a more accurate I guess representation of a dog.

SNYDER: Yes, what we find in almost all of our participants is they start off drawing sort of caricatures of animals and then after ten minutes or so of what we call transcranial magnetic stimulation, they start drawing much more naturalistically. Their style completely changes and then 45 minutes later most people have reverted back to their normal style that they started with.

COOPER: Is there any way that you can recommend that people at home can sort of unlock their creativity without going through this procedure?

SNYDER: I think the way to become more creative is once you become sufficiently proficient in one thing you go on and do another. COOPER: It's fascinating work, a fascinating study, Allan Snyder thank you for being on the program.

SNYDER: A pleasure, thank you.


COOPER: Well, tomorrow as our series continues we look at brain sex. Find out how the wiring in your brain affects your love life.

And on Friday, the successful brain, learn how you can think like da Vinci or Einstein perhaps.


COOPER (voice-over): Jeremy Sivits receives the maximum sentence for his part in the Iraqi prison scandal. We'll talk with the attorney for the soldier he blames for the abuse.

Is the Democratic Party out to embrace then destroy Ralph Nader? We'll talk live with former presidential candidate Howard Dean.

A California teen takes the stand for more dramatic testimony in the alleged rape on tape trial.

360 continues.


COOPER: One-time Kerry rival, now big booster, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean joins me in just a moment. First, the top stories of the night in the "Reset." Gaza bloodshed: Palestinians say Israeli forces fired into a crowd killing at least 18 people. Separately, the U.N. Security Council condemned Israeli military operations in Gaza. The U.S. abstained from voting. President Bush urged Israel to exercise restraint.

In Washington, reducing the threat of bioterror today, the Senate set aside $5.6 billion to prepare for a possible germ or chemical attack in the U.S. Part of the money will be used to increase the stockpile of vaccines and antidotes.

Oklahoma, dress code change: the school district is changing its policy so a sixth grade girl can wear a Muslim head scarf to school. The school will also pay an undisclosed sum to settle a lawsuit the government filed on behalf of the girl who was suspended twice for violating a school ban on hats and other head coverings.

Atlanta now: good manners gets you a free flight. Delta's low- fare carrier will give away 5,000 tickets to passengers who are nice to other travelers. Not quite sure what that means and who assist flight attendants. Bye-bye.

So John Kerry was making nice with Ralph Nader this afternoon in a meeting with the independent candidate, at least when he wasn't telling reporters that a vote for Ralph Nader is a vote for George Bush. Behind the scenes, the effort to get Nader out of the race is growing as well. Here's CNN's congressional correspondent Ed Henry.


ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At their face-to-face meeting, aides to John Kerry say he and Ralph Nader did not discuss whether the independent candidate will get out of the race. But behind the scenes, Democratic operatives are working aggressively to blunt Nader's impact.

A new group called The National Progress Fund is being created amidst serious Democratic concerns that Nader could pull enough support in key states to tip them to President Bush, and cost Kerry the election.

TRICIA ENRIGHT, NATIONAL PROGRESS FUND: This is not about alienating Nader's supporters, this is about giving them a voice. And also recognizing that they can be a real powerful part of this next election.

HENRY: The group has already cut ads that it intends to run in swing states, which feature former Nader voters who now regret their decision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By supporting Ralph Nader, I actually helped George Bush.

HENRY: And the group has created an online community of progressives, who like Nader, but intend to vote for Kerry. They're creating a Web site called

(on camera): The group, which is independent of the Kerry campaign, is trying to get the powerful Trial Lawyer Association to pay for the television ads. Democrats are also enlisting lawyers to push Nader off the ballot in key states. All this is pretty ironic, given the fact that one of Nader's biggest allies has always been trial lawyers. Ed Henry, CNN, Capitol Hill.


COOPER: Well, Howard Dean has much to say about the Nader factor. Not long ago, Dean and John Kerry were, of course, trading barbs on the campaign trail. That was then, this is now. Let me show you a shot, that is them playing cards.

Dean has gone from foe to friend, trying to transfer the devotion of his legions of followers to John Kerry. Howard Dean joins us now. Thanks for being with us governor.


COOPER: There seem to be two approaches to Ralph Nader right now. John Kerry met with him today. They really didn't talk anything that was confrontational. Then you also have a former spokeswoman of yours whose involved in this effort to run these ads in key states, sort of confessionals, former Nader supporters saying they got Bush elected. Can you eliminate the Nader factor?

DEAN: I don't think you can eliminate it. But this is not the year for a third party. Ralph Nader's contributed an enormous amount to this country. And for some inexplicable reason he seems determine to wreck his legacy. Another four years of George Bush is the end of Ralph Nader's 40-year legacy of environmentalism and consumerism. I don't understand why he's running and I wish he weren't.

COOPER: Do you think there's any chance he'll drop out?

DEAN: No, I don't. I've spoken with him personally. I think he's hell-bent to do this. And that's his right in a democracy.

COOPER: Does his argument make any sense to you? He says he will attract disaffected Republicans.

DEAN: His argument makes no sense whatsoever. And he's clearly not going to take more votes away from George Bush than he is from John Kerry, which is what his argument is.

Look, there are going to be one or two people that are going to be president of the United States: John Kerry or George Bush. I think there's an enormous difference between the Supreme Court nominees that John Kerry will put forward and those put forward by George Bush, between environmental policies put forward by John Kerry and those put forward by George Bush.

And unfortunately, for those who don't think John Kerry is quite pure enough, and I certainly had my disagreements with him during the campaign, if you choose to vote for Ralph Nader you're essentially electing George Bush. And we don't want to do that.

COOPER: Let's talk about the disagreements. "The New York Times" has called you and John Kerry, who we saw you guys playing cards together the political odd couple. I mean, this is a man you once called basically a Republican, or Republican-light, a George Bush wanna-be almost. How do you sell John Kerry to your die-hard supporters?

DEAN: If you look at the record, it's not too hard. John Kerry really does have a strong environmental policy. That was never in dispute at any time during the campaign. John Kerry has committed to a universal healthcare plan that's very similar to mine. So, what's not to like about that?

John Kerry actually has participated in trying to balance the budgets, by casting a vote for Bill Clinton's balanced budget program. George Bush is running half trillion dollar deficits. Why wouldn't I support John Kerry for the good of the country?

COOPER: Has John Kerry -- have you been surprised that Kerry's numbers have not raised up I mean, given a lot of negative news coming out of Iraq?

DEAN: Not at all. People don't know John Kerry yet. They have to make two decisions in this election. The first, is to reelect President Bush. And I think they're on the way to the decision not to re-elect President Bush. Then they have to decide if John Kerry is a good replacement. They're going to get to know John Kerry and I think they're going to find John Kerry has a pretty solid record and they'll be happy to have him as president.

COOPER: A lot of Republicans, though, say the Bush campaign has done a very good job of defining who John Kerry is. People used to use the word honest in some polls to describe John Kerry. In the latest poll, they weren't using the word honest, you hear the word flip-flop. Are the Republicans doing a better job of getting the message across about who Kerry is than Kerry himself?

DEAN: Well, they spent about $65 million trying to do it. There's always that stuff that goes on in the ads. But in the long run, negative ads also drive down President Bush's ratings. So I think in the long run the negative ads are not going to determine who wins the presidency. I think what people's platforms are are going to make a huge difference.

As we talked about in the top of the show: environment, job creation, balanced budgets, these are things that matter. And John Kerry's record is so much better than George Bush's I don't think there's going to be a question.

COOPER: Who do you want to see as vice president?

DEAN: That's not up to me. Believe me, that's not up to me. And I don't get into that.

COOPER: Would you have supported John McCain?

DEAN: I'll support just about anybody that can help the country and anybody who's appropriate.

COOPER: Governor Howard Dean, thanks very much.

DEAN: Thanks very much.

COOPER: Well, in a makeshift courtroom in Baghdad today: military justice. The first of several court-martials in the prison abuse scandal. Specialist Jeremy Sivits pled guilty, received the maximum penalty, one year in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge. That is despite his willingness to testify against others in the scandal.

Earlier three of his comrades, including accused ringleader Specialist Charles Graner seen here, waived their rights to have their charges read aloud and their pleas were deferred pending another hearing next month.

Here to talk about Specialist Graner's defense, his attorney, Guy Womack. Guy, good to see you again.

Has anything that has come out of today, either in the congressional testimony from the House Armed Services Committee by the generals or out of this court-martial hearing changed your defense? Are you still saying they were -- he was just following orders?

GUY WOMACK, SPC. GRANER ATTY: Absolutely. Keep in mind that Sivits himself frankly should not have pled guilty in that case. In my opinion, statements that he made, the things that we've seen about him, written by others, and spoken about him by others, doesn't support any charge.

COOPER: You contend that Sivits has been lying all along?

WOMACK: No, in his statements he lied about the involvement of other people. He denied in there, under oath, that military intelligence was involved in any way in setting up these scenes. Now we have photographs that show that.

COOPER: You say you have photographs that show that. You've shown them before on our program. And yet today, in testimony in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee you had the officer in charge of military intelligence basically saying, look, the military police were the ones in charge of the personnel inside that prison.

WOMACK: We know better than that. On November 19, 2003, Lieutenant General Sanchez issued an order directing that Abu Ghraib prison come under the direct tactical control of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade.

COOPER: They say they were in charge of the building, the facility, not the people inside it. They still say in testimony today again, that the personnel inside, the people giving the orders, were military police. And your client was a military policeman.

WOMACK: Yes. That's absolutely not true. The military intelligence command were given the orders to the MPs, and as General Miller had recommended back in late August, early September, the MPs were to be used and directed by the military intelligence command to soften up the prisoners, to make the environment conducive to interrogations just as in the photograph you're looking at here, where a civilian contractor with the number 2 on him, the heavy set guy in an army uniform is actually a civilian standing over these 3 naked Iraqi males, numbers 4, 5, 7 and 8 are military intelligence officers clearly orchestrating the creation of this scene as they're doing this interrogation.

COOPER: Guy, how much discovery have you been able to look at? You've been showing these photos for a while. You have now testimony, You're going to have probably testimony from Sivits, which is going to be very convincing. I mean he basically today, some of the stuff he was saying, particularly against your client was indicating he was kind of a ringleader. He was kind of enjoying it.

GUY WOMACK, SPEC. CHARLES GRANER'S ATTORNEY: It's not going to be convincing. We're going to show that he lied time and time again in his statement. He also apparently lied about his own involvement. In his statements, both of them, that were under oath to CID, he denied any wrongdoing. He denied that his chain of command was even aware of what military intelligence was doing and that military intelligence was not really doing anything anyway. All of those are lies. I don't think he's going to be a significant witness for anyone.

COOPER: Guy Womack, good to talk to you again. Today's buzz is this. What do you think? Has the United States apologized too much for Iraqi prison abuse? Log on to Cast your vote. Results at the end of the program.

Coming up, it was an alleged rape caught on tape. Now comes word of another videotape. The latest in a live report up ahead in justice served.

Also tonight, disturbing clues turn up in the frantic search for two missing sailors.

And a little later meet a veteran New York City cop 40 years on the job, and not one, not one sick day. Hard to believe but true. Stay with us.


COOPER: This just in. Two freight trains have collided head on near the Texas town of Gunner. That is about 50 miles north of Dallas. You're looking at a live picture from the scene. Details very sketchy right now. We do know up to 20 cars have derailed, as you can see there. That is one of the cars. Rescue workers say at least three people have been injured. Three people. They also say there were reports of several explosions in the accident. Again, these are early reports. We don't want to go out too far on a limb here. The collision happened as one of the trains was heading northbound, the other southbound. Again two freight trains have derailed after a head-on collision in the north Texas town of Gunner. At least three people have been injured. We're going to have more. Continue to follow this story. As details come in, we will tell them to you just ahead.

In justice "Served Tonight," a stunning new revelation in a rape trial in California. Or an alleged rape trial. Both sides say the incident involving three young men and the alleged victim was videotaped. But now comes word of another tape. And defense attorneys say it shows she may have been a willing participant. All this on the day the alleged victim is being cross-examined. CNN's Miguel Marquez is at the court. Joins us live from Santa Ana. What's the latest?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Stunner after stunner in this one, Anderson. The prosecutor finished up today and the defense started in on the accuser. The accuser is called Jane Doe in this case, referred to as that. One thing clear in a very complex case is that what started off as teen sex and teen drama at some point developed into an alleged gang rape. All of this caught on tape.

The defendants quite young. One is Kyle Nachreiner and Keith Spann. They are now 19 years old. They were 17 when this alleged rape took place. Greg Haidl is now 18. He was 16 when it allegedly took place. He's also the son of a high ranking Orange County sheriff's official. All three have been charged with 24 felony counts, including gang rape, and rape with a foreign object. Prosecutors contend the video that was made of the alleged rape shows the three boys sticking a lit cigarette, a Snapple bottle and a pool cue into Jane Doe's private area. Today the defense played an interview with Jane Doe that she did with investigators just days after the alleged incident. Upon questioning Jane Doe, the defense painted her as a liar and manipulator and got her to admit that she had sex with two of the defendants, made out with a third the day before the alleged rape.


PETER SCALIST, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It seemed like her entire life is wrapped around sex and drugs and partying and rocking and rolling and alcohol. And I think that that's what her testimony bore out.


MARQUEZ: Now the other thing that came up today was the existence of this second videotape now. Jane Doe told investigators she thought it had been erased. But defense lawyers today questioned her on it, and used it to contradict her testimony. That's when things got testy between the judge and the defense lawyer. The judge allowed the jury to go home and the judge may now allow the jury to see portions of the second videotape tomorrow.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

Another story tonight, the words of a father. He says, quote, "we want to know what's going on." He's talking about his missing daughter. A 21-year-old sailor who vanished from her apartment in Virginia. Her roommate another sailor has also disappeared. Police say there appeared to be signs of a violent struggle. The latest from CNN's Kathleen Koch.


KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 21-year-old sailor shared a group apartment in Virginia beach about 15 miles from the aircraft carrier Teddy Roosevelt where they were based. When Laura Ann Skinner and Jared Swartzmiller didn't report for duty at 7:00 a.m. Monday morning, the third roommate went to the apartment looking for them. Police say Paula Marine Byrd opened the locked door to Skinner's room and found a disturbing scene.

DON RIMER, VIRGINIA BEACH P.D.: The bed and other areas in the bed had bloodstains on them. Now, to get more specific than that, because of the evidentiary situation, I can't. But that was of enough concern to the homicide investigators that they're calling it missing persons with suspicious circumstances.

KOCH: A search warrant shows police seized as potential evidence men's and women's clothing and underwear. A blanket, sheets, rugs, several towels, as well as paperwork, including a Navy federal credit card statement. Police seized Skinner's car, but are still looking for Swartzmiller's red 2003 Ford Ranger pickup. Police say the two sailors had impeccable military records, no criminal history, and had not been romantically involved. In fact the roommate told investigators the two shared a mutual animosity toward one another. One of Skinner's high school teachers in Oviedo, Florida says she'd been dedicated to having a career in the military.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was successful with ROTC and she had a leadership role with them. She was a very strong role model with them.

KOCH: Late Wednesday police announced a body found in Hatfield, Massachusetts, Monday afternoon may be Skinner's. Authorities are still looking for Swartzmiller who's now been charged with malicious assault, and unlawful flight to avoid prosecution. Kathleen Koch, CNN, Virginia Beach.


COOPER: All right. He's a New York City cop who hasn't taken a sick day since 1964. But he says it's no big deal. The city disagrees and is honoring Sergeant Edmund Keen for his service. We're going to meet him when we come back.


COOPER: And we are rechecking this developing story. Two freight trains have collided head-on near the Texas town of Gunner (ph), that is about 50 miles north of Dallas. We're getting in some new tape from WFAA. You're looking at the pictures from the scene. We do know at this point 20 cars have derailed. Rescue workers say at least three people have been injured. Again, two freight trains derailed after a head-on collision in the north Texas town of Gunner (ph). These reports are very early, very sketchy. Three people injured at this point. We'll try to update you as events warrant.

Well, a much lighter story right now. Forty years at any job is a feat, especially these days. Forty years as a police officer in New York City is remarkable. Forty years without ever taking a sick day, unbelievable but true. Sixty-two-year-old Sergeant Edmund Keane was singled out at a ceremony honoring officers with 30 or more years of service over his career. Whenever he was too sick to work, he used his vacation days. Very pleased that Sergeant Keane is here with me tonight. Thanks for being with us.

We didn't worry about you getting sick and not being able to show up to work. Why haven't you taken a sick day?

SGT. EDMUND KEANE, NYPD: I just really didn't have the need. You know, we have ample vacation. They give us ample vacation time.

COOPER: So the few times you've gotten sick, you've actually used your own vacation time?

KEANE: A vacation day, or if I had some kind of comp time, where I might have had some extra time, I just utilized those days. COOPER: You're saying this is no big deal. But I mean, you're using vacation days, when I mean, the city gives you plenty of sick days, don't they?

KEANE: Well, we actually have unlimited sick time. But, I'm pretty healthy, thank God. You know? So I just utilized my own days. I didn't really see a need to use their days.

COOPER: Did you always want to be on the force?

KEANE: Yes. I love the police department. It's -- I work with really wonderful people, fine men and women, and it's been an honor to be, you know, part of the department all these years.

COOPER: Your colleagues, I mean, did they say come on? Ed, take a day.

KEANE: No, nobody really recognizes. This just happened because of the award ceremony. Otherwise people wouldn't even be aware of this.

COOPER: So it's not something you even have talked about.

KEANE: No, it's not something like that you go around talking about. People are used -- accustomed to seeing me every day. I come into work, do my, you know, whatever I have to do, my assignments, either in the field or in the office, and that's it.

COOPER: And you're going to be reaching the mandatory retirement age soon.

KEANE: Yes, sir. Yes, in November, sad to say. Yes.

COOPER: And it's something you're -- I mean, because a lot of police officers think, look, you know, once I get my 20 years on the job, you know, I'm off and I get my pension. But I mean, you just love it.

KEANE: Yes. Yes, I do. I love it. It's a great opportunity to serve people. As I said, I work with beautiful people. Great people. And you know, gives an opportunity to serve. And all work is honorable. But you might as well do something that you like. And it's a great job.

COOPER: Well, your work is honorable indeed, and you do it very well. Sergeant Edmund Keane, thank you very much for being on the program.

KEANE: Thank you, sir.

COOPER: Congratulations, it's amazing.

KEANE: Thank you very much, sir.

COOPER: I'm never going to take another sick day. I feel very slothful. Thanks very much. KEANE: Thank you. Good night.

COOPER: Well, just ahead, happy birthday to a pair -- you can just stay there for a second -- happy birthday to a pair of rock legends. Does yesterday really seem so far away? We're going to take that to "The Nth Degree."

And tomorrow, our series, "Unlocking the Secrets of the Brain," continues with a look at brain sex. Find out how the wiring in your brain may affect your love life. And today's "Buzz" is this -- has the United States apologized too much for Iraqi prison abuse? What do you think? Log onto, cast your vote. We'll have results in just a moment.


COOPER: Time now for "The Buzz." Earlier we asked you, has the United States apologized too much for Iraqi prison abuse? Here's what you said -- more than 26,000 of you voted -- 51 percent of you said yes; 49 percent no. Certainly not a scientific poll, but it is your buzz. Thanks for voting.

Tonight, taking the far, far future to "The Nth Degree."


ROGER DALTRY, MUSICIAN (singing): Hope I die before get old.


COOPER: When Pete Townsend of The Who wrote that lyric as a kid of 19, both prospects, death and old age, must have seemed ridiculous.

Happy birthday to Pete, by the way. He turns 59 today.

That would have been old and how to Townsend the kid, but we're guessing it doesn't seem old at all now. Prime of life, really, just getting started. Funny how that works.


PAUL MCCARTNEY, MUSICIAN (singing): Would you still meet me, would you still feed me when I'm 64?


COOPER: And happy birthday to Paul McCartney, too. He turned 62 yesterday. Sixty-four must have been an impossible stretch of the imagination once upon a time. Now, not so much.


BOB DYLAN, MUSICIAN (singing): Oh, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: The nice thing about old age is that it stays a fixed distance out ahead of you, like the horizon. Funny that.

I'm Anderson Cooper. Thanks for watching. Coming up next, "PAULA ZAHN NOW."


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