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LOU DOBBS TONIGHT

U.S. Gunships Attack Fallujah; Nationwide Heat Wave Raising Concern

Aired April 27, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, U.S. gunships launch attacks against insurgent positions in Fallujah.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Many, many rounds went into each of those sites.

DOBBS: Our troops in Iraq don't have enough armored vehicles to protect themselves. I'll talk about this critical issue for our men and women in uniform with two leading lawmakers, Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

A fifth year of droughts in Western states, a heat wave in California. Now record temperatures raise fears about wildfires, water shortages and power outages.

The Supreme Court hear arguments in a case that could determine how much you find out about what your government is doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't operate in government on a baseline that everything is open to the public.

DOBBS: The World Trade Organization rules again against the United States, this time in a dispute over cotton. The ruling threatens the sovereignty of this country to make its own economic and trade policies.

And the fight to save American jobs moves to Washington. I'll be joined by the governors of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, as they work to stop the export of American jobs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, April 27. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, U.S. Air Force gunships launched a heavy bottom bombardment of insurgent positions in the city of Fallujah. The aircraft fired a barrage at an area in Fallujah where a U.S. Marine was killed yesterday. Earlier, another U.S. gunship was involved in a battle with Shiite gunmen near the city of Najaf; 64 insurgents were killed in the engagement. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): Late tonight, heavy attacks on Fallujah as two U.S. aerial gunships bombard the Sunni stronghold. Two positions were the target of the assault.

PENHAUL: Many, many rounds went into each of those sites. We're talking possibly 20, 25 cannon rounds. Then the AC-130 gunship that has been circling around, returning and again firing volleys of 20, 25 cannon rounds into those positions. Initially, there were heavy explosions, sparks flying. And now what we're seeing essentially is the aftermath there.

DOBBS: U.S. aircraft dropped leaflets warning the insurgents in Fallujah to surrender. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said the Marines are optimistic about the situation.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: We haven't seen a lot of tangible results in the discussions. The weapons haven't been turned in. We haven't seen anybody handed over, but the intangibles, they're quite pleased with. And they think there's going to be some progress over the next couple of days.

DOBBS: In Najaf, one oft fiercest battles yet, as U.S. troops pressure radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's gunmen to stop stockpiling weapons in mosques and schools.

U.S. helicopter gunships attacked al-Sadr's militant positions in the area; 2,500 U.S. troops are poised outside the city.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today said the insurgents in Fallujah are what he called tough and unlikely to be cooperative.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

Jamie, tonight's airstrike on Fallujah an isolated incident or this likely the beginning of an all-out assault on the city?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly signals a lack of cooperation and good-faith on the part of the insurgents that the U.S. has been trying to negotiate with through intermediaries.

According to Pentagon sources, two AC-130 gunships attacked position s in Fallujah with their .105-millimeter cannons after U.S. Marines who were dug into defensive positions came under attack from those insurgents. It's just another example of how U.S. Marines come under constant fire from the insurgents during this so-called cease- fire.

The Marines have been engaged in operations which have been going on for days now, returning fire. And we've seen some of the most dramatic video of the Marines from an operation yesterday in which they went after enemy fighters holed up in a mosque. Here's some of the video that was taken by U.S. pool journalists who have been traveling with the U.S. forces in combat.

Let's just listen to a little bit of what this sounds like. The Pentagon says the Marines are holding off on a final push into Fallujah to give the failing negotiations at least one more chance. Today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Richard Myers, said -- quote -- "It is worth a try."

But, as you mentioned, Lou, those leaflets that were dropped on Fallujah today warning the insurgents to surrender have an ominous tone. They say -- quote -- "If you are a terrorist, beware, because your last day was yesterday. We're coming to arrest you" -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard Myers, today defended the Pentagon's decision not to send more Stryker and M- 113 armored personnel carriers to Iraq. The general's comments followed Jamie's McIntyre's report yesterday citing a memo from a four-star general saying the Army's reinforced Humvees don't provide enough protection for our soldiers.

CNN military analyst General David Grange joins me now. But first, let's hear exactly what General Myers said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I think if you look at -- we'll have to get the figures on APCs. But all these systems -- none of these systems provide 100 percent protection. That's the fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: General Grange, you believe the Pentagon can do better than that. How so?

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I believe that. I think the Pentagon can do better.

General Myers is correct that there's not a fighting vehicle out there that provides 100 percent protection. But I think what the troops need is better protection than what they have out there right now. And there's stuff in the inventory, like the APC, the armed personnel carrier, the 133, that can provide that almost immediately to give some additional protection, medical personnel, engineers, civil affairs, logistics people, those moving around in the battlefield, it can be solved, I think, quite quickly.

DOBBS: Those 113s, the APC, do they have to be shipped from the United States, or are they forward deployed in other places?

GRANGE: Well, you have both. There's already 113s in country. They're in Kuwait and other places. But there's a lot in the military inventory.

In fact, they're part of the organization, the armored organizations right now, sometimes used as command-and-control vehicles, engineer vehicles, medical vehicles, command-and-control of artillery fires, different things like that. So they're out there. It is just a matter of getting them in there just to provide additional protection for the troops in certain tough situations.

DOBBS: Give us your best assessment. U.S. Marines surround Fallujah. It appears that the prospects of entering Fallujah rise each day. Do our Marines have the armor that they need to go into Fallujah again in your best assessment?

GRANGE: Well, as you know, the Marines went over there with not all their equipment like many of the forces did because of the expectations of a little bit different type of environment. And it has become much more volatile.

I think that the Marines will have to be enhanced with armor probably from the Army units that are there. There's armor in country to do that. If they attack throughout Fallujah, I don't think they will attack the entire city. But you want to a mixed infantry, foot soldiers with armored units, armored elements in order to get the effect you need.

Sometimes, if there's an enemy sniper in the window, the best use of force, surgical use of force is a .120-millimeter tank round right through that window.

DOBBS: The 1st Armored Division, as you know, is there. They are amongst the troops who have been extended. That's heavy armor, that unit. How is that going to enter into the planning for further rotations in Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, one reason the 1st Armored stayed there was one, they're veterans of the battle. They've been there a year. They know what's going on. And they are a heavy unit. They have not only foot soldiers, but they have armored vehicles to fight. So they were really a good choice for the situation.

I think subsequent rotations that the Department of Defense will ensure there's enough heavy armor mixed with the light forces, the special operating forces to do nation building or whatever comes about, because you never know what the results will be.

DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: This country's closest ally, Britain, today said it has no plans to send more troops to Iraq. Some observers believed the British would send more troops to make up for the withdrawal of soldiers from other coalition countries.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president of Bulgaria said his country's troops did not sign up for this kind of combat, saying the force of 500 -- quote -- "has been involved in a real war it was not prepared for" -- unquote. He asked for Bulgarian troops to be moved to another area. They're near Karbala, where fighting has been very intense.

Prime Minister Tony Blair said there are enough British troops in Iraq already, some 7,500.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The advice that we have is that we have sufficient troops to do the job.

PILGRIM: In central and southern Iraq, 9,000 troops from various countries fall under Polish command. But that force is down by 20 percent. American forces from the 1st Armored Division are filling that void.

Spain has pulled 1,400 troops away from Najaf, a sight of intense resistance. Honduras and Dominican Republic are also withdrawing more than 600 soldiers. Some coalition troops are not trained for intensive combat and are more involved in humanitarian and reconstruction work.

PAT TOWELL, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND BUDGETARY ASSESSMENTS: Those jobs need to be done. But right now, what you need is people who will be in a position to actually shoot at bad guys, or shoot back at bad guys, at least. Not clear that all of these other countries' forces are going to be in a position to do that.

PILGRIM: Prime Minister Berlusconi today said Italy would keep its 3,000 troops in place, which are engaged in reconstruction work in Iraq. Australia said it will not be involved in a long occupation, but it will keep troops in Iraq until it is stable.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Election politics are a factor. Spain's new prime minister campaigned on a troop withdrawal pledge. And it's an election year also for Australia's Prime Minister Howard. His rival is also campaigning on a troop withdrawal promise -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty.

Still ahead here, a shortage of armored vehicles in Iraq. The lives of our men and women in uniform are at risk. I'll talk with two leading lawmakers, Congressman Duncan Hunter, Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

And the Supreme Court hears arguments in a case that could determine whether you have the right to know how this country is governed. We'll have a report from the White House.

And California may decide as soon as tomorrow to ban all electronic voting in the November elections. We'll have that report for you and a great deal more still ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Supreme Court today heard arguments in a case that goes to the heart of government secrecy in this country. The case centers on Vice President Dick Cheney's refusal to release the records of a controversial energy task force that met three years ago.

Senior White House correspondent John King with the report.

(APPLAUSE)

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the campaign trail, a very public role leading the attack against Democrat John Kerry.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is irresponsible to vote against vital support for the United States military.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: But this is the vice president whose most important work is done in private, in the Oval Office here. and who is the leader of an aggressive effort to defend a president's right to conduct some business in secret.

ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Well, you know, we don't operate in government on a baseline that everything is open to the public.

KING: At issue now: a Supreme Court case about whether some records of the vice president's Energy Task Force should be made public. A lower court said yes and the White House appealed. Democrats, and Congress, and other critics call it proof of a White House obsessed with secrecy on issues ranging from the Energy Task Force to blocking access to information about terror suspects detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

CHERYL MILLS, FMR. CLINTON DEPUTY COUNSEL: This administration is much more conservative on the issue of privilege. And much more, I'd say, aggressive about asserting it or asserting those things that are similar to it.

KING: Not so says the president's top lawyer.

GONZALES: In most cases, we are able to reach an accommodation. and that's why in the history of this administration only once has this president asserted executive privilege.

KING: Just recently, these compromises. The 9/11 Commission finally won access to a presidential intelligence briefing Mr. Bush received five weeks before the terrorist attacks. And National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice testified before the commission after months in which the White House said no. NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST.: Every president, liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, oftentimes, faced with immediate political pressures, has kind of caved or given in on executive responsibility.

KING: But the White House did not give in this time and appealed the Energy Task Force case to the Supreme Court, reflects Mr. Cheney's unrivaled clout within the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And this fight also reflects the vice president's strong view that presidential power has been eroding for 30 years, dating back to Watergate and including the decision by the first president he worked for, Gerald Ford, to agree under pressure to testify before Congress about his controversial decision to pardon Richard Nixon -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you -- John King, senior White House correspondent.

That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question, should Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force records be made public, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

Still ahead here tonight, outrage at one of this country's leading companies over the exporting of America, IBM employees urging the company to stop shipping jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. We'll have a live report next.

And a special panel with the governors of three states whose workers have been hard-hit by the exporting of America. I'll be talking with Governor Jennifer Granholm of Michigan, Governor Jim Doyle of Wisconsin, Governor Edward Rendell of Pennsylvania.

And then the growing debate over whether American troops have the protection they need in Iraq. I'll be talking with House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter and Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

All that and more ahead still ahead. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: As we have reported here for well over a year, more and more companies are sending American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Now some employees are fighting back. Employees and retires of IBM today gathered outside the company's annual meeting to protest the exporting of jobs.

Mary Snow reports from Providence, Rhode Island.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want? PROTESTERS: Our jobs back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?

PROTESTERS: Our jobs back.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): IBM workers and retirees took their battle to the front lines, urging IBM's CEO and shareholders to stop sending their jobs overseas. Activists say IBM is not being open about its effort to cut tech jobs in the U.S. and hire cheaper labor in other countries.

Rally organizer Linda Guyer, a project manager at IBM, says workers are scared.

LINDA GUYER, IBM: Employees are starting to get extremely worried. They're seeing some of their colleagues, left and right, drop off by having their job moved to another country, such India or Brazil. On my floor where I work, I have six guys who are losing their jobs and they're training their replacements.

SNOW: Retraining is a concern. An internal human resources presentation last year that was leaked to the press acknowledged tension such training would cause. It states: "U.S. workers or workers in a country where the work is being relocated from will, in many cases, be asked to train their replacements." Shareholders sympathize with the workers and their families. But some say IBM needs to outsource to remain a vital company.

ROBERT WILSON, IBM SHAREHOLDER: As a shareholder, I think what the company is doing now is well advised. And I don't think they're going to be, you know, moved too much by demonstrations of this sort.

SNOW: IBM declined our request for an interview, but released a statement saying it's investing more than $750 million to retrain its work force. It goes on to say that by the end of the year, IBM will have more employees worldwide that at any time since 1991, saying it's providing job growth and economic opportunity for its employees and partners in every part of the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: And it's IBM's expansion plans that have workers worried. Earlier this month, IBM said that it intends to buy one of India's largest call centers -- Lou.

DOBBS: Mary, thank you very much -- Mary Snow.

We wanted to share an editorial cartoon on the subject of outsourcing and, in this case, the military as well. The cartoon shows a U.S. armed forces recruiter with the old Uncle Sam posters reading: "I want you in Iraq. I want you in Afghanistan, Haiti" and other countries, of course. The caption reads, "When it comes to shipping jobs overseas, we practically wrote the book" -- our thanks to cartoonist R.J. Matson. Still ahead, three states hit hardest by the exporting of American jobs are also three key battlegrounds in the upcoming presidential election. We'll talk with the governors of Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan.

Also tonight, an international trade threat to American products as strong as steel and as soft as cotton. We'll have a report on what could be a growing danger to this country's economic security and our very sovereignty.

And then, protecting Americans in Iraq. Some in Congress say the military is doing the best it can. Others say they disagree. We'll talk with House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter and Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

All of that, much more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: As we reported, there's rising concern tonight about whether U.S. troops have the protection they need in Iraq.

My next guests have different views. House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter says all troops in Iraq now have the latest body armor available and that's been true since January. Duncan Hunter is, of course, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. We're also joined tonight by Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky, who says body armor is not enough. The congresswoman says the military needs to do more to protect the vehicles U.S. troops are riding in Iraq. Congresswoman Schakowsky is the chief deputy whip of the House Democratic leadership -- both joining us tonight from Washington.

Good to have you with us.

REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Thanks, Lou.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let me begin, if I may, with you, Mr. Chairman.

And that is the issue of body armor. There are reports, as you know, that families are still buying body armor for reservists and National Guardsmen going to Iraq. Why are they doing that if, indeed, there is adequate body armor?

HUNTER: Well, Lou, obviously, a very important question for all of us in the Armed Services Committee. We have worked this thing heavily with the military, watched them on a weekly basis.

They now have, according to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs in testimony and in letters to us, have stated that we have produced now 260,000 sets of complete body armor, 260,000. We have 135,000 troops in theater. The statement from our DOD is that every single person not only uniformed personnel, but also every civil servant who is in Iraq has at least one set of body armor. Now, if you look at the production number, we have twice as much body armor as we have people in Iraq. Of course, we have people in Afghanistan, too. They also are fully covered. So the answer is that every single soldier has body armor who is now -- who has a foot in Iraq and that every single civil servant who is supporting that operation in Iraq also has body armor. And I would invite, if people have sons or daughters who are in the Iraq theater don't have body armor, my name is Hunter.

You get ahold of me at the U.S. Congress. And I want to know what unit that is and who doesn't have it, and we will move immediately on that. But, again, we produced 260,000 sets. That's twice as much as we need for everybody in theater. And what we have back from DOD is that everybody, before you step over that line from Kuwait, has body armor.

DOBBS: Congresswoman Schakowsky...

SCHAKOWSKY: Yes.

DOBBS: The issue raised by General Ellis, and that is over inadequate Humvee armor, if we may move to that issue next, you're not satisfied with the situation. Neither is General Ellis. What is your suggestion to be done about it?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, you know, an unofficial report, we haven't seen it yet, by a defense contractor estimates that one-quarter of deaths in Iraq might have been prevented had our troops had adequate equipment.

What an indictment that is. And maybe all our troops have the Kevlar vests. But they may need an extra to hang over the side in order to protect their vehicles. There's a soldier who was just deployed for another three months after his year that wrote to the Peoria paper. And what he said is, this unit does not have the extra armor that's now required for vehicle convoys.

Even though we've been here over one year, we still don't have the right protection from roadside bombs or small-arms fires. Our doors are, basically, just two sides of sheet metal. We've known for a long time that our soldiers are more likely to face RPGs, rocket- propelled grenades, than they are rosebuds and open arms.

You know, we have known that this is a very dangerous situation. As of last October, a quarter of our troops, it's estimated, did not have that body armor. I think a lot of parents -- I've met with many of them -- are very concerned that force protection, that taking care of their kids is not the top priority.

DOBBS: Chairman...

HUNTER: Let me address that, Lou.

DOBBS: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I would like you to address it from the standpoint of something that you said earlier in talking about force protection. You said, in keeping this trust, referring to the obligation of your committee to provide oversight and the assurance of force protection, that is, protecting American lives wherever their mission takes them. In this case, Iraq. You said, if we're to be successful in accomplishing this mission at any time anywhere in the world, in keeping this trust we must be honest in our assessment of whether we're doing everything to not only provide the soldiers what they need to accomplish their mission but when they need it. Mr. Chairman, are we maintaining that trust, in your judgment?

HUNTER: Well, Lou, we have now armored some 71 percent of all of the Humvees that are in theater. We've armored some 2,800, which is a total rebuild of that Jeep. The problem is that a Humvee is basically a fancy Jeep. What we've done is we've gone to war and we've discovered a new system, a new weapons system called the IED, can be detonated remotely, it can be as big as a huge artillery round just a few feet away.

Jeeps can't handle that. And that is something that we have discovered...

DOBBS: The roadside bombs.

HUNTER: The roadside bomb and we do need to manufacture systems that are much bigger than those Jeeps because even if you put 2,000 pounds of armor on those jeeps and we have now armored either by manufacturing the new heavy-duty Humvee or by putting kits in theater and having those placed on, we've done 71 percent. We still have 29 percent of the army vehicles that aren't done. All the marine vehicles have some that need to be done.

But here's the point, Lou. In October, we did know that and we put in $240 million in a supplemental budget, which was line item, to pay for up armored Humvees. My colleague voted against the supplemental appropriation. My colleague voted against such supplemental appropriation so we in Congress bear some of the fault for not moving quickly enough to get this armor between our troops and those explosions in the road. You don't get those things for free. The answer is we have to do a lot more, I think we're going to have to go to bigger systems than Humvees. My recommendation is to use 5 and 7-ton trucks and striker vehicles on these heavy convoy operations instead of using what we have now, which is a Jeep.

DOBBS: General David Grange, as you know, our military analyst here, Mr. Chairman, would like to see the APCs, what was referred to as the old APC, the 113s, brought in to bear in Iraq. Congresswoman Schakowsky, we're out of time. I have to give you the last word if I may.

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, you know, the $87 billion -- one of the reasons that I voted no is that I thought we can't trust this administration to spend this money well without a plan in Iraq. They got the money. It still turns out that many of our kids are there without the equipment that they need. A Chinook helicopter that was downed from an Illinois unit, the National Guard. They were last on the list to get the proper missile detection system. I spoke to the aunt of one of those soldiers. She certainly doesn't feel that enough is being done. DOBBS: We thank you both very much.

HUNTER: Thank you.

DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, Congresswoman Schakowsky, we appreciate your time.

When we continue, fighting to save American jobs. I will be talking with the governors of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin as they press Congress to protect American workers. The governors are my guests coming up next.

And challenging the economic security of the United States. A controversial ruling from the World Trade Organization that some say threatens this nation's very sovereignty.

And a dangerous heat wave threatening the already depleted water supplies in the western states. We'll have a special report next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More than 2.5 million U.S. manufacturing jobs have been wiped out. Now, three governors whose states are among the hardest hit are pressing lawmakers on Capitol Hill and the administration to take action. The governors of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin met with Democratic leaders in Congress today. Joining us tonight from Washington, Governor Jennifer Granholm of Michigan, Governor Edward Rendell of Pennsylvania and Governor Jim Doyle of Wisconsin.

Let me begin, if I may, with you, Governor Rendell. Your state has lost jobs and is losing jobs faster than any other in the nation. Precisely, what do you want Congress, what do you want the administration to do?

GOV. EDWARD RENDELL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: A number of things. First, we want Congress to enact the Manzula/Graham/Rangel (ph) bill that gives tax breaks to American manufacturers who manufacture here. Do all of their manufacturing right here in America. There's no reason that that bill shouldn't be supported. The administration should get behind it immediately. That would have a very good effect. And then some of the things Senator Kerry has proposed, tax credits for new job creation in America. That would be a big plus.

Secondly, we have to become much more aggressive, and you've heard me say this before, Lou, in the World Trade Organization. We think we're getting our brains beat in in the last three years and four months and we need to get a much more aggressive posture. We heard from the secretary of commerce today that they are going to hire Elliott Ness-type (ph) prosecutors to ratchet up the heat on the World Trade Organization and maybe that's good news.

DOBBS: Is that good news, Governor Granholm? You've wanted to see a more aggressive approach with the WTO. Each of you has in point of fact. Is that the solution?

GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), MICHIGAN: Well, it is one of the solutions. This is, obviously, a very complex problem. When other countries are putting up barriers to our manufacturers being able to export, then the whole myth of free trade is really a myth. Free trade is not free when other countries are free to import their products here, but we are not free to export there.

It's very important we are aggressive at the World Trade Organization and we're hopeful that we were rattling the cages today to stand up for jobs in our states. We are sort of the poster children of governors for all of the manufacturing states, all of us have seen devastating losses. We wanted to bring Main Street here to Washington to let them know and feel how hard this has been being governors of states that have lost so many jobs.

DOBBS: You have, in point of fact, issued an executive order to curtail the offshoring, the outsourcing, exportation of state-funded jobs. And that takes effect, when, Friday?

GRANHOLM: Yes, it does. And it really gives a preference to Michigan-based businesses. As taxpayer dollars that are spending when the state buys a product or service. We want to make sure that all other things being equal, we give the points to the home team.

DOBBS: Governor Doyle, your state has legislation before it to try to curtail outsourcing, focusing on these issues that you're bringing to Washington. There are those who suggest that state legislation is, in point of fact, constitutional, suggesting it breaches the commerce clause of the U.S. constitution. What's your reaction to those assertions?

GOV. JIM DOYLE (D), WISCONSIN: The commerce clause says you can't discriminate among commerce interstate. It doesn't say that the United States and the states can't protect itself against jobs that go elsewhere. You know what I think is really lacking is a real vision of where we are headed with manufacturing. That's the great concern in Wisconsin, the loss of over 80,000 jobs in the last three years and really very little sense there is any vision at the national level about where our manufacturing will be five years or 10 years. We are focused on a very aggressive program in Wisconsin to really focus on manufacturing with a vision that we will be competing at the high end for high quality well-paid jobs. That's what I hope as we participate more aggressively in the WTO, but We're Also at the national level ready to make the investment in our people and job training and in capital investment to upgrade our manufacturing base in this country as we look out where we'll be five, 10 years from now.

DOBBS: Each of you is keenly aware of the political value-laden charge you would call protectionists because you want to save American jobs. You are also, I know each of you is working diligently with your business communities in your states to try to create jobs. How are you -- if I can ask you quickly to give us a suggestion.

How are you balancing the interest of working with the business community, saving those jobs, trying to get fair and balanced trade, certainly, within your states and to save those jobs?

Governor Granholm, if I can start with you. GRAHOLM: Very quickly, the business community knows how important it is for us to have trade policies that level the playing field. They want to export their products. We're not putting up walls. We're not interested in being protectionists in that sense. We want there to be a lot of trade, but fair trade so that we don't lose products, businesses, and workers to other countries when we know if we're given a level playing field, our workers and businesses can beat the competition any time.

DOBBS: Governor Doyle.

DOYLE: Well, we're not protectionist. I came back from a 12-day trade mission to China, the largest in the history of Wisconsin because we want to export. We believe if we have a fair and level playing field, that we will create jobs in Wisconsin through strong exports. We make great products. And that's what we want, we want to export.

DOBBS: Governor Rendell, you get the last word.

RENDELL: Well, I think they're right. When you look at the concept of fair trade, both Jim and I have Harley-Davidson in our states. When Harley wanted to sell its motorcycles in Japan, they didn't put up a tariff because they required people driving large motorcycles only made by Harley-Davidson to take a special driver's test, that's absurd. That's not free and that's not fair. And that's what we're focusing on, and our business community very supportive, Lou.

DOBBS: Outstanding, Governor Rendell, Governor Granholm, Governor Doyle, we thank you very much and wish you all, of course all of the best of luck in this very important issue.

The phrase "limited sovereignty" has been described to the upcoming June 30 handover of power to Iraqis. But limited sovereignty could also apply to the United States after a new decision by the World Trade Organization. The WTO has reached an interim ruling on agricultural subsidies that threaten this sovereignty of this nation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's policy have caused riots. It's been called an anti-American kangaroo court, that threatens America's economic sovereignty, and it is not even 10-years- old yet. The Geneva-based world trade organization formed in 1995 has 147 member countries and resolves trade disputes which, lately, means telling America what it can and cannot do.

NEIL HARL, IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY: Many Americans do not understand what happened back in 1995, and I think they are now raising questions about it. I've had some inquiries myself already today from individuals who did not understand that this had teeth in it.

VILES: It showed its teeth by showing it couldn't put tariffs on foreign steel to protect a steel industry for a national security reason. And now is headed toward ruling the cotton subsidies are driving down world prices and have to go.

GAWAIN KRIPKE, OXFAM AMERICA: What the WTO is saying is our susidies are providing -- are creating an unlevel playing for farmer in the United States against, farmers in the other countries, and we need to get right on the rules.

VILES: That ruling on cotton isn't even final, but analysts are already predicting a rollback of farm subsidies all around the world.

MARC CHANDLER, CHIEF CURRENCY STRATEGIST MSNBC: In the coming year's we'll see that the agricultural subsidies of Western industrialized countries, not only the United States, but Western Europe, and Australia and Canada especially as well. They'll have to be -- they'll be having to be rolled back. If not gotten rid of completely, there will be an effort to reduce them.

VILES: It is hard to know the exact logic of the WTO tribunal on this issue because this preliminary ruling is confidential.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: U.S. Trade officials would not fill in the blanks either except to say they have serious concern about what is going on in Geneva and will appeal this rule if it does turns to be in the end to be critical of U.S. cotton subsidies.

DOBBS: The odds are in every instance that the United States when it's defended before the WTO, will lose.

VILES: It will. 147 members, 146 would like to sell things to us and not buy things.

DOBBS: Meanwhile, we have managed currencies, we subsidies. It's extraordinary. At this point, if I may say, in my humble opinion, this is idiotic for the United States to put up with.

VILES: Sure. You should think it should be a decision made by the president and the Congress and the United States voters though the Congress. But that is not the case in this situation.

DOBBS: It is remarkable. Thank you very much, Pete Viles.

Still ahead, a threat to jobs in the western part of the country coming from an unusual source, the weather. The threat, however extends far beyond to power. To the well being of our forest and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) itself. We'll have a special report on the blistering drought

Also what are America's dream job. Driving the open road. It is part of our featured series this week, celebrating those who make America work. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The hottest spot in the country was Gila Bend, Arizona, an afternoon high of 93 degrees. For millions of Americans in the west the weather this spring is turning into more than a topic of barber shop conversation, and it has policy makers sweating. Drought is baking parts of the west with countries in some areas that rival the 1930 U.S. Dust bowl.

Casey Wian has the story form Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another day of record high temperatures in sought earn California.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know when I'm in the shade and it's hot, I know it's hot.

WIAN: Raising fears of growing water shortages through out the west this summer. Already, this year, lower winter snow levels led the Governor of Idaho to declare a drought emergency in three counties. This national Drought and Mitigation Center shows drought hitting 25 states, with abnormally dry weather in others. Giant Lake Mead which supplies water to Nevada, Arizona and Southern California, has dropped below 60 percent of its capacity. Nearby lake Powell is closer to 40 percent. Water agencies such as Arizona Saltwater Project are slashing deliveries customers.

BRUCE HALLIN, BALT. RIVER PROJECT: We've reduced allocations to our users within our service territory by one-third. We did that last year, and we're continuing the allocation reduction for this year. That hasn't happened since the late '40s.

WIAN: Last year, the federal government forced southwestern states to agree on a way to share surplus water from the Colorado river. Now the surplus is gone.

RON GASTELUM, CEO, METROPOLITAN WATER PLANT: Two years ago we were taking 1.2 million acre feet of water from the Colorado river almost every year. Now we're down to around 600,000 acre feet. We're planning on not getting much more for the near term, anyway.

WIAN: Southern California and some other areas say they have plenty of water to survive the drought because they have invested heavily in storage facilities and conservation. But in Las Vegas the drought has already led to sharp price increases, water rationing and restrictions on new lawns. Some western water districts are considering paying farmers not grow crops to conserve water. And lumber prices in some areas have doubled since last year. The biggest immediate threat is a repeat of last year's wildfires. One hit southern California Monday.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Electricity supply is another concern. Already California's power grid operators have asked residents to reduce their use of appliances twice in the past month. Grid officials say they have enough electricity to keep the lights on this summer as long as temperatures return to something close to normal -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, thank you. Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.

In "Broken Borders" tonight, a dramatic increase in the number of illegal aliens crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. Many are trying to beat tighter border security that will be introduced in June. Many are attracted by the president's immigration proposals. The U.S. Border Patrol says that the apprehension of illegal aliens has risen by 25 percent over the past six months. Several thousand illegal aliens are entering the country each day.

California could soon make a decision to ban electronic voting in the November elections. If so, it would be the first state to do so. Last week, the California state panel recommended that the state should not use voting machines made by the company Diebold. A final decision is expected to come as soon as tomorrow.

Turning now to Wall Street. Stocks today closed, little change. It was a mixed performance. The Dow up 33 points, the Nasdaq down four, the S&P up almost three.

A new report on the economy inspired some of those gains. Christine Romans is here with that.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Consumers were more confident in April, in large part, the Conference Board says, because of an improved perception about the jobs market. People think jobs are a little bit easier to get. They still have high gasoline prices to contend with. And there's no reason to think high energy prices will retreat anytime soon.

OPEC signals it may raise its target prices for oil this fall. And the chairman of the Federal Reserve today said higher energy costs are substantial and persistent enough to have an impact on American business.

On the subject of outsourcing, the president of Indian outsourcing firm, Satiem (ph) says his company has not been hurt by the backlash from workers protesting shipping jobs overseas. The president of the Business Round Table, John Castellani declined a request to appear on this program but today I spoke with him about his support of outsourcing and disdain for its opponents. Lou, a lot of buzz words about lifelong learning and innovation. But he talks in circles.

DOBBS: Well, I wish he would come here to talk in circles or otherwise. It would be lovely to talk with the gentleman who suggested I was on a Jihad. I hope he will find his way clear to talk to our audience here. Christine, thank you very much.

ROMANS: You're welcome.

DOBBS: Well, taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you writing in about exporting America and those comments from the president of the Business Round Table.

John Masino wrote in to say, "Lou, using the word Jihad was a not so clever subliminal tactic to associate you with our perceived enemies in the minds of viewers. The very word Jihad implies an enemy of the United States, unpatriotic and extreme leftist and a gang of other negatives that fit the times we now live in."

Reo Alexander of Los Angeles. "Lou, apparently your critics cannot come up with the words to describe intelligently what you've been saying all along about our outsourcing. If it's Jihad they want, Jihad they shall have."

And Jeronimo Armijo of Santa Fe, New Mexico. "Lou, in reference to your critics, when it comes to you tenacious attack on the outsourcing of American jobs to countries abroad, I'll join this Jihad."

And Pam Williams of Portland, Oregon. "Lou, if you are promoting a Jihad against outsourcing American jobs, I decided it was high time I enlist in your army."

Well, we are not, despite Mr. Castellani's rather hyperbolic language, we're not thinking in Jihad terms, we just like the Business Round Table and Mr. Castellani to start thinking, period. Thank you for your comments. We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com.

In our weeklong series of special reports celebrating the people who make this country work. Tonight the story of Paul Barnes, a truck driver from Maine and he loves the open road. Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Movies, truck stops and stereotypes. But not all truckers live up to the image. He does have the obligatory dog along with a curious cat. He also has a college degree in financial management and marketing with a minor in math.

Paul's been driving for 32 years. Just in the past year he's put 183,000 miles on his rig. Paul loves it, says he never wanted to do anything else, and he wants to do it until he's 70.

PAUL BARNES, TRUCK DRIVER: I like the opportunity to have the time to myself. I wouldn't want all day to myself. I like to have a few hours every day where I've only got me to think about.

TUCKER: But as much as he likes what he does, he's showing signs of age in the usual ways.

BARNES: I don't think the young people have the approach. A lot of us were taught by older drivers that have more respect for each other, showed more courtesy for other drivers.

TUCKER: And he's a man with clear priorities.

BARNES: Work is No. 2 in my life. My family is No. 1. I've been very fortunate in my life. I work for a company that is family- oriented. It's enabled me to do the things that are important to me, like spending time with my son fishing on my boat. TUCKER: Over the years, hauling loads has taken him places he would never have been or seen otherwise, let him meet people he would never have met.

BARNES: The trucking industry has been very good to me, very good. I'm never going to be rich, but I don't expect to be. I live comfortable. I do what I want to do. I'm living day to day. My life is very good. I'm very happy.

TUCKER: By the way, you know how you think trucks can be a menace on the road?

BARNES: Come on. 65-mile-an-hour speed zone going 55.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on work. "Be true to your work, your word, and your friend." Those are the words of Henry David Thoreau.

Still ahead here, we'll have the results of tonight's poll. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. 96 percent of you say Vice President Cheney's energy task force records should be made public. 4 percent do not. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. We hope you're with us tomorrow when former secretary of state Henry (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to discuss the worsening situation in Iraq, the Middle East, and the global challenges facing this country. And in face-off, raising the minimum wage in this country. Two very different views on an issue that affects millions of hardworking Americans. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


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