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PAULA ZAHN NOW
Soldiers Missing in Iraq; John Kerry and the Catholic Church
Aired April 9, 2004 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks so much for joining us tonight as we wrap up the week here. I'm Paula Zahn.
It is Friday, April 9, 2004. A lot to talk about with you tonight, including an ongoing search for missing soldiers in Iraq.
ZAHN (voice-over): A new threat spreads to Americans in Iraq. Two soldiers and several civilians are missing and may be held captive. Explosions rattle Baghdad. Relief trucks become targets and the number of American dead climb. One year after the fall of Saddam, we'll ask former Secretary Defense William Cohen what has gone wrong.
A controversial idea to treat sex offenders: show them pornography and lots of it. Sex therapist Dr. Laura Berman will join us to talk about aversion therapy and how it could even help you lose weight and maybe quit smoking.
One in every four voters is Catholic, just like Senator John Kerry. But what does the Catholic Church think about his stance on abortion and gay rights? A look at the divide that separates the candidate, his religion, and the Catholic vote.
And is there a good man behind every good dog? We're going to talk with a woman who's convinced you can tell a man's personality by the company he keeps on a leash.
ZAHN: First, though, here's what you need to know right now.
In Iraq, two U.S. soldiers and a number of civilian contractors, as we mentioned to you at the top of the hour, are missing tonight. They were part of a fuel convoy that was attacked near Baghdad International Airport. One U.S. soldier and an Iraqi driver were killed in the firefight, a dozen wounded.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins us now.
What's the latest from there, Jamie?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, in the time when there's been a wave of kidnappings in Iraq, the U.S. is uncertain whether the missing U.S. military personnel and contractors are in fact hostages or something else has happened to them. What they do know is that after a deadly attack on a U.S. fuel convoy involving four fuel trucks in which one U.S. soldier was killed and at least 12 people were wounded, they've now determined that two U.S. soldiers are missing and unaccounted for, as well as several other people said to include at least some American contract workers. This comes after there's been, as I said, a wave of kidnappings, including some Japanese civilians who were shown on a videotape recently with their captors demanding that the government of Japan withdrawing its troops from Iraq.
Now, the government of Japan has said it will not do that. But, nevertheless, the U.S. is concerned about the pressure this puts on its coalition partners. Today, the coalition spokesman, Dan Senor, read a statement, or gave a statement at a briefing in which he said that his message to anyone who would take a hostage, any foreigner, any foreign citizen, foreign national or Iraqi is the same. He said: "This will not be tolerated. We will not negotiate with any terrorist that takes a hostage of any individual. We will seek to capture or kill them."
Now, we're told that an effort is under way now to try to find the missing personnel. But we have no indication of how extensive that manhunt may be -- Paula.
ZAHN: Jamie McIntyre, thanks for the update.
Now reaction to the latest surge in violence in Iraq from a former secretary of defense during the Clinton administration. William Cohen served as Pentagon chief just before the current defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. He's also a Republican and he joins us tonight from Washington.
Also good to see you, sir. Welcome.
WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Good evening, Paula.
ZAHN: If it turns out these two soldiers are indeed kidnapped, along with these contract workers, what are the implications?
W. COHEN: Well, the implications are that we're likely to see even more of this, certainly as the date of June 30 comes at us, and the inability, at this point at least to, resolve the issue of what kind of a government is going to take over on an interim basis. So, I think we're likely to see any tactic that the insurgents or their supporters can now devise, and the mind can be quite cruel in that effort.
ZAHN: So what should the coalition do to confront this?
W. COHEN: The coalition has to exert a good deal of muscle, but it has to do so in moderation.
It has to be done discreetly and not in kind of a wholesale reaction of just starting to kill a lot of people. They have to go after the individuals that are holding our soldiers and others captive. They have to be very discrete in terms of looking at the areas where they can break the spirit and the ability of the insurgents to wage this kind of guerrilla or insurgency warfare against our troops.
So that means applying more force, but to do so in a very discreet and very precise way. Otherwise, you run the risk of alienating and perhaps even radicalizing a far larger population of the Iraqi people.
ZAHN: But how seriously would the insurgents take the message they got today from the coalition, that if you are going to kidnap our people, we'll either going to come capture or kill you?
W. COHEN: Well, I think they have to take it seriously. When you make a statement such as that, they have to be put on notice that the Marines and the soldiers and the others who are there, coalition forces, are going to come. And in the event that they can in fact capture those individuals who are responsible for the kidnapping, they will try to capture them but they will also be prepared to kill them.
So I think they should take it very seriously. Hopefully, we'll see some element of diplomacy also enter the picture. I would say there are two key names that we have to keep our eyes on, one Mr. Brahimi from the United Nations, the United Nations envoy, and also Ayatollah al-Sistani. Those two individuals will play a great deal of importance as we get closer to that June 30 date.
The U.N. playing a role in trying to shape the composition and the shape of the Governing Council, or whatever the form it's going to take after June 30, he will play a key role. And the Ayatollah Sistani has got to make a decision as to whether he is going to lend his support to the more radical elements represented by the new challenger to his authority, Mr. Sadr, or whether he's going to continue to try to be a force for moderation. He will play a major role in the coming weeks and months.
ZAHN: We made a note of this at top of the broadcast. Here we are a year almost to the date of the fall of Saddam, at least the toppling of the statue in that square. Are you surprised by the strength of this insurgency movement?
W. COHEN: I think there have been certainly some miscalculations in terms of anticipating that there would be much greater support for the coalition forces than currently exists.
But I think security is going to be key. And we have not produced that security at this point to the satisfaction of the Iraqi people. We cannot be successful in Iraq without the support of the -- most of the Iraqi people. We can't get the support of most of the people without showing that we're going at any successful. They simply are not going to be willing to run the risk or encourage -- incur the wrath of those insurgents or those engaged in guerrilla warfare at this point, if they're not satisfied that the United States is there for the long haul and that we are going to prevail.
So we've got to have both of those conditions, security and then persuading them that we're there for the long haul. ZAHN: And earlier, you said it wouldn't surprise you if you would see more of these kidnappings that at least we saw with the Japanese workers yesterday between now and the June 30 deadline. Do you see that deadline shifting?
W. COHEN: I'm sorry?
ZAHN: Do you see that deadline holding on June? Is there any way we make that deadline?
W. COHEN: Well, first of all, setting a deadline is important in terms of providing an incentive for the parties to accept the responsibility of governing the country. So, without a deadline, you never reach a decision.
Setting a deadline however also reduces flexibility. For example, if we don't keep to the deadline, then the Iraqi people will think that if we move it, we were never serious in the first instance about turning over responsibility to them. Also, it creates a political problem back here at home, because if we then start moving the deadline, it will be seen as a sign of weakness, that we have not had a grasp over the political situation in Iraq, and therefore we'll be attacked politically, saying that we failed to meet our own deadline.
So it's important to set it. But once you set it, you have to live with the consequences. So I think the focus will really be shaping the Governing Council in a way that enjoys the support of the Iraqi people, rather than moving the date.
ZAHN: In closing, I want to shift the focus to something that you testified to in front of the 9/11 Commission in reference to Osama bin Laden. Let's all listen together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. COHEN: Our plans were to try to -- quote -- "capture and/or kill" -- or kill -- I should say in this particular case capture or kill bin Laden. That was the directive that went out. Taking that directive, we had our people in a position, should there be -- quote -- "actionable intelligence."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So is the reason the U.S. couldn't get Osama bin Laden based on the fact that there wasn't the right military plan or lack of intelligence?
W. COHEN: It's a combination of proximity to the target. We were never able to gain access to bases in the region. Pakistan was supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. We had no basis in the region. Therefore, we had to launch an attack from the Indian Ocean, a very long distance, by cruise missile.
The notion of putting in a small band of commando units into terrain as tough as Afghanistan is, is really quite futile if you think about it. We've got 13,000 troops in Afghanistan today. We still haven't found him. The notion you put a small group of SEALs or special forces in there and seek to hunt down bin Laden on our own, looking completely out of place to be sure, I think would be a virtual impossibility.
So it took, unfortunately -- it was not until 9/11 that we were able to turn public opinion, global opinion, and Pakistani opinion to say, we have to be with you now. This is an attack upon the United States, the United Nations, world order. We now see that. Therefore, we have to support the United States and the coalition forces. Without that, it was virtually impossible to get bin Laden.
Intelligence was critical. How do you know where he'll be at what given time? You need at least six hours advance notice. So we had a lot of difficulties to contend with. And that was one of the reasons we were never able to get him.
ZAHN: Former Defense Secretary William Cohen, thank you very much for your time.
Still ahead, we're going to take a look at some of the new details about the gruesome ambush in Fallujah. Were Americans led to their slaughter by supposedly friendly Iraqi police?
Condoleezza Rice speaks and the president benefits. A new poll reveals Americans' reaction to her historic defense of President Bush.
Senator John Kerry doesn't always practice what his church preaches. Could that cost him the crucial Catholic vote and possibly the election?
ZAHN: Were the four American security contractors murdered and mutilated last week in Fallujah the victims of an ambush? That's what the first that employed them believes.
An executive at Blackwater USA has told "The New York Times" that its workers were lured into a trap by men who appeared to be part of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, a force trained by the American military. The Pentagon has not confirmed. It is still investigating what happened, but it raises new questions about the unique dangers facing Americans in Iraq.
Joining us from Los Angeles to talk about that is Aaron Cohen, former Israeli Army commando, Israeli and counterterrorism expert.
Good to see you, Aaron. Welcome.
AARON COHEN, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: Based on what you know about this case, is it your belief that they were attacked as part of a coordinated effort?
A. COHEN: Well, it's hard to tell because I'm not there. But I wouldn't put it past them to use deception as a tool to carry out their acts of violence. It's definitely possible.
ZAHN: With the amount of skepticism that one has in Iraq right now, are you surprised that trained security experts would actually put this kind of trust in the hands of Iraqi police forces?
A. COHEN: Well, I'm not surprised. And the reason why is because there is a lot of professional soldiers that are right now that are actually dealing and doing the security physically in Iraq at this time right now.
But the thing is that the security does not necessarily reflect the backgrounds of the individuals. They are very highly trained soldiers and they were hired as a result of that. But, specifically, the training and the tactics need to embody what the exact mission is going to be there.
ZAHN: So how are you trained to know who's the enemy and who's not?
A. COHEN: Well, Paula, it's really all about time in. They need good time there. They need good intelligence. They need make sure that they've asked themselves all the difficult questions before they begin to carry out security operations and make sure that all the security plans are in place before they begin to move.
ZAHN: So what do you see as the biggest threat facing the security forces in Iraq right now?
A. COHEN: I think the biggest threat right now is going to be the deception that's being used by these guerrilla forces.
You've got a lot of embattlement between the leadership trying to fight for positioning. And what that does is that elevates the alertness, or the alert level, to those individuals who are there, specifically because they don't exactly know who they're going to be dealing with. So they need to be extra cautious. They need to do everything they can possibly do to prepare themselves both tactfully and intelligence-wise to make sure that they've done everything to reduce the amount of risk.
The fact is, they don't know who the enemy is right now. There's so much confusion going on. These guys need to be extra, extra aware and make sure that they have done everything possible specifically in this urban environment, where close-quarters action is going to happen. They need the right equipment. And they need to, again, look at every different possibility to make sure they've done everything they can to be safe.
ZAHN: So basically, what you're saying, in spite of the training they've had, there really is no way to stop this from happening again?
A. COHEN: It's very unlikely. There is no 100 percent chance. The situation is very, very volatile. And they are going to need to do everything they can to be aware of their surroundings at all times, no matter what. There is a very high possibility that there will be a situation like this again, no question about it. These guys need to put themselves in a position where they've got a very, very high level of both intelligence for where they're going to be moving to and from and how they are going to respond tactically, specifically in that area or that urban environment where they're going to be very, very, very close to a potential attack.
ZAHN: How good do you think the intelligence is that they're getting?
A. COHEN: You know what? Again, it's kind of unfair for me to comment, because I don't know and I'm not there. Intelligence isn't an exact science. We've heard that before.
But I'll hope -- we hope that the information they're going to be getting is going to be very accurate, and the people that they're going to be working with and carrying out security operations with are going to be trustworthy. That's really all they can do.
ZAHN: Aaron Cohen, appreciate your insights tonight.
A. COHEN: Thank you, Paula. Thank you very much.
ZAHN: Thank you.
Coming up, controversy over a cure for bad behavior, give someone what they crave until they can't stand it anymore. Some states are trying it with sex offenders.
He is a Catholic candidate who differs with the church on abortion and gay rights. Could that alienate one of the largest bloc of voters in November?
ZAHN: Some convicted sex offenders in Massachusetts are getting a controversial treatment that involves child pornography. It is called aversion therapy. And it's highlighted in today's "Boston Herald."
The paper says some rapists and pedophiles, including an ex- priest, have been forced to look at different types of pornography while they're put in very uncomfortable situations. But is the treatment medically sound? Does it work?
Joining us now is Dr. Laura Berman, a sex therapist and founder of the Berman Center in Chicago.
Good to see you, Doctor. Welcome.
DR. LAURA BERMAN, SEX THERAPIST: Thanks. Good to be here.
ZAHN: All right, can you explain to me this evening how you take a pedophile and expose him to the very material that fuels his desires and, in the end, end up curbing that behavior?
BERMAN: Right. Well, the premise is that you can't change someone's sexual preference, at least not easily. So the focus or the goals of treatment in aversion therapy is to help patients learn how to control the urges. And what they do in the case of sex offenders is they expose them to the stimulus that arouses them. And then, when they start to get aroused, they introduce negative reinforcement in the form of something unpleasant or painful.
It might be breaking a capsule of ammonia under their nose. It may be shocking their hands. But they start -- the idea is that they start to associate something unpleasant or painful with the process of getting aroused by that stimuli.
ZAHN: Does it work?
BERMAN: Well, they have -- what is found to be most effective is a combination of this kind of therapy, which falls into the category of what they call cognitive behavioral therapy, combined with group therapy and other kinds of interventions on an individual basis, that one kind of therapy alone doesn't necessarily work.
There are different statistics that look at the repeat offense rate. And some statistics show that sex offenders will repeat almost 50 percent of the time in some cases. So I don't know that there's a surefire treatment that necessarily cures sex offenders, especially since most of them aren't voluntarily going into treatment. They're going into treatment to avoid some sort of legal consequence.
BERMAN: So the treatment becomes the punishment.
ZAHN: So you certainly understand why some taxpayers out there are scratching their heads tonight, wondering why their money is paying for porno flicks for these pedophiles to be watching.
BERMAN: Well, it's tricky. But it makes intuitive sense if you believe in cognitive behavioral approaches, which is one school of thought in terms of therapies.
ZAHN: What are the other applications of this? Will it work in trying to get someone to quit smoking? And I'm not talking about the use of porn flicks, but just using the aversion therapy technique?
BERMAN: The aversion technique, right. No, porno wouldn't help with ceasing smoking.
But it has been used in stopping many different addictions, to drugs and alcohol and to smoking. The idea is, when you have the urge, you're exposed to something aversive, so you start to associate the urge with something unpleasant. It's the same principle. In those cases, people are highly motivated to change and that really helps the success of the treatment. And in some situations, they'll provide a shock to the hand, in some, a negative smell of some sort. And the idea once again is that you combine that with other kinds of therapies that address the underlying impulses and reasons why people have been driven to addiction. And then it may increase the effectiveness of treatment.
ZAHN: Real quick closing to this. Have you ever seen it work for overeating?
BERMAN: I have for all sorts of impulses. It can be really effective. And we are creatures of suggestion. We respond to positive reinforcement, and we also respond to negative reinforcement. So there is something to be said to the effectiveness of it.
I think what we really need to pay attention to is that we are treating patients with the utmost respect that they deserve and that we're tailoring the treatments to the specific needs of those patients.
ZAHN: Laura Berman, thank you for joining us tonight.
BERMAN: Sure. It's my pleasure.
ZAHN: So what effect did Condoleezza Rice's testimony have on the president's image? We're going to find out what you all think.
And can you tell something about a man by the dog he owns? I'll talk with a woman who says breeds can give you a clue to the personality.
And on Monday, the emotional battle over a baby girl from China. Her parents say they never meant to give her up; an American couple stole her.
ZAHN: Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
Two American soldiers and an unknown number of civilian contractors are missing after a fuel convoy was attacked near Baghdad Airport. That follows a recent wave of abductions in Iraq.
Vice President Gore was questioned by the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors today. The commission described Gore's three-hour session as candid and forthcoming.
And reporters were forced to erase tapes of a speech by Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. The speech at a Mississippi high school was not off-limits to reporters. One journalist organization called it a constitutional irony that a speech by a Supreme Court judge would trigger a dispute over the First Amendment.
The explosive eruption of violence in Iraq and the testimony of National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice before the 9/11 Commission combined to make this an incredibly important week for the president. The latest "TIME"/CNN polls gives some insight into how Americans think the administration is handling both situations.
Joining us now, "TIME" magazine columnist, regular contributor Joe Klein, along with "Wall Street Journal" columnist John Fund.
Welcome to you both.
ZAHN: We're going to start off straight off with the Gallup poll, which we should make very clear was taken before the most recent fighting in Iraq, shows a marked decrease in how well the public thinks things are going for the U.S. in Iraq.
Take a look at these numbers. What do they mean, John?
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": It means this last week was very bad. More people died. And there's a revolt going on in Iraq.
And I think the administration is going to try to get a handle on it. It's also going to have to kill some Iraqis in the process. It's going to be messy, but we're going to prevail. And we have the forces to do it. And we're not sending people home.
ZAHN: How messy is it going to get?
JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's hard to say how messy it's going to get, because we don't know how widespread the Sadr, the radical Shiite, constituency is and whether more moderate types are now joining in, because nobody likes our presence there very much. This is a very difficult situation. And if I could just say that the polling on Iraq is something that we shouldn't trust all that much. Because I think people's feelings about this are very, very complicated. And they're kind of hard to quantify and they change from day to day.
FUND: Can I just add to that, Joe? I think the Iraqis don't particularly like us being there, but they also don't like violence and anarchy. So, we may be ultimately for most Iraqis better than the alternative, which is this revolt and disaster.
KLEIN: I don't think we know that. I think that in that part of the world, in Mesopotamia, they have a record as long as human history of repelling invaders. And especially people they consider infidels. This was going to be a problem from the very start. There are a lot of wise people who did not want to go into this war, for this very reason. There was no planning done to do this. And now we're facing the situation where in June, we're going to turn over authority to whom? The big question is whether this governing council is just a committee, or whether it's an actual government. We don't know.
FUND: Let's give it a chance.
KLEIN: Well, I think we have to, because I don't think we have any choice but to stay there, because we have a moral responsibility now to bring some kind of peace to that country. ZAHN: You've conceded, John, that this has been a rough week for Americans in Iraq. Characterize for us where you think we are a year after the fall of Saddam.
FUND: Well, there's been a lot of progress in terms of the infrastructure: energy production is up. There is a functioning economy. We have to remember that. On the other hand, we have clearly not done a very good job in disarming groups we should have disarmed. We have perhaps trod too lightly on some of these rebel groups. Now, we're going to have to crack down. It's going to cost us temporarily, but I have no doubt we have the will and resources and almost all our allies are staying with us.
ZAHN: Do you think we have the will? Do you think we have the resources? Do you think we'll see much more help from our allies?
KLEIN: We're not going to see more help from our allies as long as this situation remains as dangerous as it is now. I don't think we're going to see help from the United Nations either, as long as it stays like this. Do we have the will? I don't know. I certainly hope so. Do we have the resources? Certainly we do. But we haven't been willing to use them. Obviously, more troops are necessary. And obviously...
ZAHN: How many more troops?
KLEIN: Who knows? It's hard to tell. We have to see how this thing evolves. Over the next weeks. Whether this is just a spike of violence, or whether it's going to be a sustained insurgency there. But I'll tell you what, if it is just a spike of violence, we still face the very basic problem which is that the Sunnis,even though they're uniting with the Shiites right now, the Sunnis have shown absolutely no indication to want to be part of any governmental solution. None. The Shiites want to have a one-man, one-person, one- vote rule, which is democratic. But the other factions in Iraq don't want that.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, I want to move you on to the issue of Condoleezza Rice's testimony, and take a look at some polling that was done Joe's magazine and by CNN; "Time Magazine." In March, just after Richard Clarke's testimony, 54 percent thought the administration could have done more to combat terrorism before 9/11. That figure is now down to 40 percent. What does that say about the effectiveness of Condoleezza Rice's testimony yesterday, Joe?
KLEIN: Well, I think short-term, it was very effective. It brought it down from 54 percent to 40 percent. But the very fact that this is even a question, when it wasn't a question in anybody's mind a month ago, is tribute to the power of Clarke's testimony. The fact that George Bush's strongest suit is handling of 9/11, is now open to question, is a major blow for him politically.
ZAHN: How much has the president's credibility been hurt by this?
FUND: It has been hurt, but I think it's been stopped. And I think it's now coming back the other way.
ZAHN: Why do you think it's stopped?
FUND: Well, not just your polls. But I think we're about to see a lot of things declassified. Some things that will be embarrassing to the administration, also some things from Richard Clarke's testimony to the Porter Goss commission last year in congress, in which he said, "look, this was not the fault of anyone in the administration, this was the 30, 40 year problem of not having a good domestic surveillance system."
ZAHN: Is that enough to take the sting out of this controversy?
KLEIN: Well, you still have nine months there where the Bush administration effectively did nothing. And that is a problem. You have--I'm sure--I mean, I know people who talked to Dick Clarke during the Clinton administration. And he was every bit as angry at Clinton during that period as well. So, there's plenty of blame to go around here, but bush isn't immune from it, as he was a month ago.
FUND: No, he's not, but remember: voters don't like to look at the past through the rear-view mirror. They like to look forward. What are you doing for me lately? Where are we going? Do you have a plan? And the condition of Iraq and our troops in October is going to be far more important than anything we talk about today. Or these polls.
KLEIN: Absolutely right. And, the question is, as Bob Kerrey raised in hearings this week, has Iraq created far more terrorists and far greater terrorism problems for us in the world, or not?
FUND: Good question. But remember, we've made progress in Libya because of Iraq. We've made progress in Iran because of Iraq.
KLEIN: We made progress in Libya because we caught a ship coming from North Korea with nuclear parts.
ZAHN: Do you think this has fostered--you then believe, obviously, this has fostered more terrorism, this war in Iraq?
KLEIN: I think it clearly has. I think we are doing exactly what Osama bin Laden wants. We've created a crusade in Islamic land.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, we've got to leave it there. Joe Klein, John Fund, thanks for being with us this on Friday night.
Coming up, John Kerry's politics often clash with the values of his Catholic religion. Will that make a difference to tens of millions of Catholic voters?
And we're going to talk with a woman with a revealing theory about dogs and the men who own them. Can they help you understand someone's personality?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ZAHN: Today's Good Friday, of course, a day when Christians remember the crucifixion of Jesus. Pope John Paul II presided over events at the Vatican, including tonight's Way of the Cross service at the ruins of Rome's Coliseum.
Back here one of the Pope's followers is coming under scrutiny by members of his own church. Presidential hopeful John Kerry is a Roman Catholic who regularly attends Sunday mass, but his Senate votes are sometimes at odds with church teachings on things like the issue of abortion and stem cell research. Being at odds with the church could hurt Kerry politically since Catholicism is the largest denomination in America and the Catholic vote key to winning the White House. Joining us now: Ray Flynn, former mayor of Boston and former U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican. Good to see you. Welcome.
RAY FLYNN, FORMER AMBASSADOR: Good to see you, Paula. How are you?
ZAHN: I'm fine, thanks. So, do you think the senator should be allowed to take the Eucharist on Sunday?
FLYNN: Well, let me just give background to it, Paula, I think that the Vatican is facing an ultimatum now, facing a very serious problem. Not only the Vatican but Catholics across this country are going to face a problem, what to do, how to discipline Catholic politicians who run as Catholics but, in many respects, don't adhere to Catholic principles. That's a decision the Vatican is going to soon make, the Catholic Church is going to make.
Let me say this, Paula: some people often describe this situation as comparable to what it was with John Kennedy in 1960. And I've read certain aspects of that. Nothing could be further from the truth. The big issue, the big challenge for Kennedy in 1960, a Catholic, was try to convince non-Catholics that he wouldn't take orders from the pope. John Kerry, a Catholic also, has a very different problem. He has to convince Catholics that he is supportive and is going to be respectful of the principles and the teachings of the Catholic Church. So therein lies, I think, Paula, one of the most extraordinary political dilemmas, potentially one of the most important issues in this presidential campaign.
ZAHN: So if you were the guy in charge, how would you deal with John Kerry? Would you let him take communion?
FLYNN: That's not for me to say, of course. And I don't mean to duck this. But I think personally, to deny a Catholic the Eucharist, is something that I would not do. However, I would make sure that it is politically understandable to Catholics across the country, that whatever politician-and I'm not talking just about John Kerry, because there are plenty members of the Senate and the congress who are Catholics who don't also adhere to their Catholic faith, and many of them are Democrats and some of them are Republicans. I would make sure the Catholic voters understood that they are not respecting the values and the teachings of the Catholic Church. I'd make it more a political issue with the faithful Catholic voters than I would make it a part of church doctrine. ZAHN: Well, let's take the politicians out of this for a moment, too. What about all the Catholics who receive communion who don't follow church teachings?
FLYNN: Of course, they're not running for President of the United States. And they're not going to be casting votes that are going to set policy for the United States. Such as: members of the congress, members of the Senate and the House, and of course the President of the United States. You mentioned some of the issues, Paula, in your introduction. Abortion is certainly a major issue in this country. So is same-sex marriage, a major issue in this country. You mentioned stem-cell research. But, on the other side, there are other issues that are important to Catholics. Myself included. Issues of social and economic justice.
ZAHN: Sure. Capital punishment?
FLYNN: Of course.
ZAHN: Leading the country into war, all those things some Catholics could be critical of President Bush for, right?
FLYNN: That's right, Paula. There's something here to be said. Catholics I think-and I hope this is a big issue. And if I have any say in the matter it will be a big issue. I don't believe that either party, to be honest with you, the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, I think one party takes Catholics for granted, the other party ignores Catholics. I think that there has to be a serious movement in this country so Catholics get back in the political arena once again, and stop being spectators, as they have been, by the way, since the 1960 election of Jack Kennedy.
ZAHN: Well, you might have gotten them some attention this evening. Ambassador Flynn, happy Easter.
FLYNN: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Our best to you and your family over this holiday.
ZAHN: Mel Gibson's hit movie "The Passion of the Christ" is expected to get a bump at the box office this weekend because of the Easter holiday. The movie is also doing well in Jerusalem, although it's not playing on the big screen there. Paula Hancocks explains.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Old City of Jerusalem, filled with street theater commemorating the last hours of the life of Jesus. Acting along the Via De La Rosa, passing bootleg copies of Mel Gibson's controversial film "The Passion of the Christ." For 20 shekels, or $5, you can watch this version of the film that hasn't made it yet to Israeli cinemas. Bootleg sale of the film coincides with one of the most religious weeks of the year for both Jews and Christians. Jews celebrating Passover, recalling the children of Israel's escape from Egypt. Christians celebrating Easter week, commemorating the death and resurrection of Jesus.
(on camera): Thousands come to the streets on Good Friday to follow the route that Jesus walked while carrying his cross. Down the Via De La Rosa, through the narrow streets of Jerusalem's Old City, ending up here at the Basilica of the Holy Sepulcher.
(voice-over): In Gibson's movie some feel that Jews are portrayed unfairly as calling for the death of Jesus. This Christian, who had viewed a bootleg copy the day before, rejects the anti-Semitic attacks some have attached to the film.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love Israel, we love the Jewish people, we stand with them, we pray for them.
HANCOCKS: A declaration in 1965, one of many to come out of the Catholic assembly known as Vatican II says the Jewish people cannot be held responsible for the death of Jesus.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are not going on this road of Judeophobia. We take the film as something which helps us positively again to go back to our roots and see what really happens.
HANCOCKS: Jewish-Christian relations have improved over the last half century. Pope John Paul ii has been described as the most pro- Jewish pontiff in history. Praying at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, a site sacred to Jews. Many do question Mel Gibson's timing and casting of the film.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It reinforces the tradition of the old Christian anti-Semitism that the Vatican ii tradition of the Catholic Church came to negate. Which is that, the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death. The fact that Jesus looks like he has stepped out of an Italian Renaissance painting, whereas his accusers look like they're Jews from Brooklyn, that is of deep anxiety to me.
HANCOCKS: Bootleg copies of the film, now widely available in Jerusalem. But, as one analyst pointed out, three and a half years into the current intifada, worrying about Gibson's "Passion" is low on the list of national anxieties.
Paula Hancocks, CNN, Jerusalem.
ZAHN: Coming up, we change our focus quite a bit. Alright, guys, what does your dog say about your personality? Maybe a lot more than you realize.
And have you seen some of the political cartoons inspired by the President's National Security Adviser? We'll take a look with you.
ZAHN: Dogs may be man's best friend, now it seems they may provide the best clues to a man's personality. My next guest believes women who want to learn more about men can find the answers getting to know their four-legged companions. Wendy Diamond is the author of a new book, it is called "What A Lucky Dog: How To Understand Men Through Their Dogs." And she joins us with her dog, Lucky Diamond. Good to see you.
WENDY DIAMOND, AUTHOR: You as well, Paula, thank you very much.
ZAHN: So, before we get to what you believe is your 90 percent accuracy rate...
DIAMOND: Ninety-nine percent.
ZAHN: Ninety-nine percent?
DIAMOND: Ninety-nine percent.
ZAHN: We've gone up -- between matching a man's personality to his dog, let's talk about famous men. Bill Clinton and his dog Buddy, when Buddy was alive.
DIAMOND: When buddy was alive. Those are mischievous dogs. They love to get into everything...
ZAHN: Chocolate Lab.
DIAMOND: Yes, Chocolate Lab. And that's exactly like Bill Clinton. Very mischievous. He loves the water. He's very active, he's very social. He's like the guy's guy. He's somebody that you know is friends with everybody. And that's the kind of dog that Buddy was.
ZAHN: Norman Schwarzkopf had a German Shepherd?
DIAMOND: Yes. Now those love mystery and intrigue. And that's somebody who is definitely somebody who seems very intimidating, but they are not. They're very lovable guys deep down. And those are somebody that are very good for families. They're like the man in the family.
ZAHN: Jim Carrey has a Great Dane. What should that tell us about his personality?
DIAMOND: Well, you know what? He is somebody who has this majestic presence, but he's really like a tender guy, really sweet. And that's exactly like a Great Dane. They're very big personalities. But really when it comes down to it, they're a very gentle soul. And they make great fathers. They love to play with kids just like Great Danes. You see them in the park, they're playing with all the other dogs. And you would never think that that big dog would attack them? Never. They're the sweetest things.
ZAHN: Frank Sinatra had a Shih-Tzu when he was alive.
DIAMOND: Well, I know because of Lucky, whenever she goes to the little dog park, and there's always the Shih-Tzus, the Shih-Tzus always are trying to romance-get into--meet Lucky, so they're very romantic men. They're the ones that love to wine and dine women and serenade them. And that's just like Shih-Tzus. Whenever you go to the dog park, those Shih-Tzus are all over all the other dogs.
ZAHN: If a man has a poodle, do you want to date him?
DIAMOND: Would I? I don't think so. He's a little high maintenance. I mean, very intellectual. A poodle man is a very intellectual man, he's very smart, pristine in the way he dresses, he really cares about the materialistic things. Which is not bad. But if you have something messed up, he's going to mix it. That's the kind of poodle man.
ZAHN: How about guys and their mutts? Do you want to go near them?
DIAMOND: Absolutely. A mutt man is great. That is somebody who doesn't care about any of your past. He's really happy with who you are. He doesn't care about any of the superficial things in life. He's somebody who went to a shelter, picked out a dog, didn't care where that dog came from. That says a lot about somebody.
ZAHN: So, is he on the top of your dating list, right now? A mutt-man?
DIAMOND: Absolutely, I'm looking for that mutt-man.
ZAHN: Now, this is a scientific process you went through to determine watching men and their dogs, right? So how did you figure this out?
DIAMOND: Well, what happened was, like two years ago, I broke up with a boyfriend I was with for two years. Because I run "Animal Fair" magazine, everyone was fixing me up with guys with dogs. And I would go on dates for coffee, and they'd bring their dogs, whatever. One time, this guy had a golden retriever. And then the next month I'd go out with another one. Then after three months I'm going out with all these guys. Because New York, there's a lot of men. So I just realized...
ZAHN: You don't have to tell us about all of them.
DIAMOND: No no no no no no no. But what I realized was that there were so many similarities. So I just started to ask around. And I went and interviewed over 120 men for this book. And I made my judgment from that by going also into the history of each breed and the personality traits of each breed.
ZAHN: Final question for you. So, what is the one dog or man you won't go near?
DIAMOND: Oh, no, no.
ZAHN: The bad matchup?
DIAMOND: See, I don't think there's any bad man, like there's no bad dog. It's about training them at the beginning. So I think that everyone has personality trait and every dog has personality traits. So it's finding that right breed that's right for you. ZAHN: Well, we're going to have to bring you back on another occasion to talk about how you train men. Alright, Wendy? That's another book for another night. Wendy Diamond, thank you.
DIAMOND: Thank you so much.
ZAHN: And bye, Lucky.
And we have some breaking news to share with you now. This just in: new information about President Bush's August 2001 briefing on terrorism threats. The Associated Press reports the memo includes information from three months earlier, that said al Qaeda was trying to send operatives into the United States. It says the operatives were planning an explosives attack.
ZAHN: Coming up, Condoleezza Rice's testimony launches a thousand political cartoons. Jeanne Moos takes an offbeat look.
ZAHN: So, if you want to see how differently Condoleezza Rice's testimony played in some newspapers around the country, all you have to do is take a look at the front pages of today's "New York Post" and New York's "Daily News." The Post reads: "The Lady Is a Champ" while the Daily News depicts some 9/11 families' reaction: "How Could She Not Know?" Editorial cartoonists, though, seem more united as they poke fun at Rice. Jeanne Moos reports.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She came. She double-checked her outfit. She testified. As Jon Stewart put it...
JON STEWART, TV SHOW HOST: Condoleezza Rice overcame her fear of sworn testimony.
MOOS: The "New York Post" said: "Rice Thrives in the Cooker." But now she's getting filleted by cartoonists. When she refused to testify she was shown stonewalling. Now her toothy smile has become a credibility gap. She's portrayed as finger-pointing, cooking up testimony to make Condoleezza's Rice pudding with ingredients such as spin and amnesia.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There was no silver bullet.
MOOS: No silver bullet. As long as they don't see this smoking gun, a reference to a memo sent to the president allegedly warning of attack within the U.S. "Where's the 'buck stops here' sign?" Says another. "It's been classified." At least the cartoonists get her name right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've heard you say that, Dr. Clarke. We have many points of disagreement. Dr. Clarke. Dr. Clarke, in the spirit of further declassification...
RICE: Sir, with all -- I don't look like Dick Clarke.
MOOS: Nor does Dick Clarke look like Dick Clark, as Jay Leno pointed out.
JAY LENO, TV SHOW HOST: Show the hearings.
RICE: With all due respect to Dick Clarke, if you're speaking about...
MOOS: Several cartoonists portrayed Rice as a parrot, parroting the Bush administration message. But not every cartoon was bad news for Rice. The good news is Kerry's no longer ahead in the polls, Condoleezza is. Condi for president, against Bob Kerrey in 2008. Condi, swatting democrats instead of flies. Condi live in the 9/11 room, shown playing "Chopsticks." But the real Condi was no chopped liver when she accompanied failed cellist Yo-Yo Ma. This is one National Security Adviser who seems secure playing to the crowd.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
ZAHN: And, of course, yesterday's testimony, there was reference to a memo in August of 2001. We have an update on that. Associated Press has learned that President Bush's 2001 memo from August included information indicating that three months earlier, al Qaeda was trying to send operatives into the country and in the process of planning an explosives attack. Stay with CNN to talk about the implications of that. We'll be with you all weekend long, we hope you have a wonderful holiday weekend, and we'd love to have you back with us, same time, same place, Monday night. Thanks for joining us.
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