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PAULA ZAHN NOW
Pentagon to Send More Troops to Iraq?; What Did Condoleezza Rice Know?
Aired April 5, 2004 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome. I'm Paula Zahn. Welcome to a brand new week here. It is Monday, April 5, 2004
ZAHN (voice-over): Violence is on the rise in Iraq. Will the Pentagon send in more troops?
They call her the warrior princess. Three days before Condoleezza Rice goes before the 9/11 panel, what did she know and what did she know it?
Revelations of drug abuse in the troubled Osbourne family raise the question, is addiction in your genes?
Was it really a suicide or homicide? On the 10-year anniversary of rock legend's Kurt Cobain's death, new questions raised about what really killed him.
ZAHN: All that ahead.
Also tonight, will Iraq gain sovereignty by June 30? Can the U.S. really give up power by then?
Plus, two mothers tried for killing their own children. We're going to look at the insanity defense and why those cases ended with very different verdicts.
First, though, here is what you need to know right now.
U.S. officials say an Iraqi judge has issued an arrest warrant for a man accused of inciting attacks on coalition troops. Militant cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is wanted in the killing of a rival cleric last year. The arrest of his deputy on Saturday led to clashes in Baghdad and Najaf.
Well, this morning, flash floods swept through a Mexican border town 150 miles southwest of San Antonio. At least 25 people were killed. Dozens more are missing.
And there will be a one-week delay in the manslaughter trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams. The defense requested it to examine new evidence received this weekend from the prosecution. A defense attorney says he may ask for a mistrial because of this late evidence. "In Focus" tonight, a bloody Monday in Iraq after a very bloody weekend, as the U.S. faces growing resistance from both of Iraq's major Islamic sects, the Shia and the Sunnis. And the June 30 transfer of power deadline is just over 12 weeks away. We have team coverage tonight, beginning with senior international correspondent Walt Rodgers in Baghdad and Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, where there is talk of sending in more troops.
Let's start with the situation on the ground and with Walt Rodgers.
Good evening, Walt.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Paula.
The savage violence in Iraq over the weekend, an armed revolt by an illegal Shiite militia battling with U.S. soldiers, is a radical departure from what has gone before here. The Shiites have been relatively quiescent. They have let the Americans work their will here, sometimes acquiescent, but not really violent. But the armed revolt by the Shiite militias here led by the radical and fiery Islamic cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is recasting everything here.
The U.S. now has an arrest warrant out for Muqtada al-Sadr. That in and of itself is going to be a troublesome matter. He is holed up in Kufa near Najaf. He has a private army around him. Arresting Muqtada al-Sadr might well satisfy the U.S. desire for justice, perhaps even revenge for sparking the revolt over the weekend, but it may also galvanize the opposition in this country, perhaps even unifying the Shiites and the Sunni radicals.
Again, it is a very difficult situation the United States finds itself in, particularly after the weekend when the Mahdi army, who fights for Muqtada al-Sadr, is now -- has been battling on the streets of Baghdad. They killed eight U.S. soldiers on Sunday alone. The U.S. killed some 30 Iraqis. It is not going to be at all easy.
On a different military front here, we have also the U.S. Marines going into Fallujah now. They are looking for the killers of the four civilian contractors in Fallujah last Wednesday. This is going to be more than a few -- an operation of several days.
For a look at the military aspects of this operation, let's go to Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Walt, the violent weekend demonstrations by Iraqi Sunnis so alarmed U.S. Central Commander General John Abizaid that sources say he told his military planners to draw up options for a quick infusion of U.S. troops, reinforcements, if they're needed.
But, at the same time, a senior Pentagon official downplayed the request by Abizaid, saying it was simply prudent planning for a worst- case scenario in case the violence gets out of control. But as of now, U.S. commanders insist that they believe they have adequate U.S. forces on the ground. So far, no requests for additional troops.
The U.S. right now is in the middle of a massive troop rotation. It actually has a temporary spike in the number of troops, from 120,000 at the beginning of the year to roughly 134,000 today. But, eventually, those troops will be going home. Commanders routinely reposition troops within the country. And sources say that is the most likely scenario in order to beef up presence in some of these hot spots, rather than bringing in fresh troops from out of the country, which would be an admission that what they've been saying for months, that they don't need new troops, wasn't true -- Paula.
ZAHN: Jamie McIntyre, thanks so much for that update. Walt Rodgers, yours as well.
So is Iraq spinning out of control? And what can the U.S.-led coalition do about that?
Joining us now, Fawaz Gerges of Sarah Lawrence College and in Tucson, Arizona, tonight, General Don Shepperd, CNN military analyst.
Welcome to both of you.
General Shepperd, you probably heard much of Jamie McIntyre's report, the administration maintaining they're planning for a worst- case scenario. Do you think we have enough boots on the ground now in Iraq, particularly facing this two-front campaign against the coalition right now?
RETIRED MAJOR GEN. DONALD SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Paula, I thought we had enough troops on the ground until the actions today.
When I was there in a recent trip in September, we repeatedly asked, do you have enough troops? We were told, yes, we have enough troops for the mission now, which was to slowly spread security across the nation. If the mission changes, we may need more troops. And it may be depending on what happens and how far this Shia uprising spreads, it may be that you need more troops. The thing you would do is bring troops in from other areas of the country and, of course, slow down the departure of some troops that are already there and then you bring in other troops if you need more. But General Abizaid is going to have to make that call, Paula.
ZAHN: But what kind of numbers are you talking about here, sir, that would make any real difference?
SHEPPERD: Yes, here is one thing. I don't know how many troops are needed. But I can tell you this. There is not enough troops in the whole United States military to spread security across Iraq. The key to security across Iraq is training Iraqis to take over their own security and then departing as soon as they're able to do that.
If you put in another 20,000 or 30,000 troops, of course it will help because a lot of this unrest is in the area of Najaf and Baghdad in Al-Sadr City. That would probably would take another 10,000 or 20,000 troops, which you could get fairly handily. But if it spreads across the country you have got a whole entire different situation, Paula.
ZAHN: You're really worried about this, aren't you?
SHEPPERD: Of course I'm worried. Anyone is worried about this, because this is not, as a lost people want to say, spinning out of control, but it is a very, very serious concern.
What we need to do is make sure that with all the other problems that we have in turning over this government, getting the Iraqis ready to take over their own government, that we don't have to fight a civil war in the middle of what we're already doing. It is very, very difficult. It is not impossible, but it's extremely difficult. And it's political, not military, Paula.
ZAHN: You just walked us through what some of the strategies you think should be in Baghdad and maybe in Najaf. Let's talk specifically about Fallujah. How does the military gain control of that town?
SHEPPERD: Well, first thing, again, another difficult situation. This is a very difficult neighborhood around here, Fallujah being the southern part -- or the southern anchor of the Sunni Triangle down there. It was difficult even for Saddam.
The first thing, you must not go in for revenge. You must go in and insist that the perpetrators of the killing of the four Americans be turned over, either by the Iraqis or rooted out. You then have to make sure that they understand that this type of thing will have to stop now. It will either stop by you or it will be stopped by force. You can disarm them.
And most important, Paula, you have to ensure that the Sunnis in Fallujah and elsewhere feel that they have a stake in the future Iraq. Right now, they feel disenfranchised. Until they feel they have a stake in the future Iraq, this problem is going to continue in many places, Paula.
ZAHN: Fawaz, will they ever believe they have a stake in the future of Iraq?
FAWAZ GERGES, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: I think he made a highly critical point.
I think one point that must be made very clear is that the insurgency, the armed insurgency, has grown deeper roots within the Sunni Arab community. Most of the insurgents are provided by this community who feel embittered, excluded and punished for the crimes committed by one of their members, Saddam Hussein.
As the general said, unless the Sunni Arab community is fully integrated into the political process -- it must feel part of the political process, I feel that there is no military solution to the spectacle of problem -- the solution is political. You must find a way, a mechanism to give the Sunnis a stake in the new order being constructed in Iraq. ZAHN: But General Shepperd also said you have to get the message to them that this must stop now, that you either have to stop it by force or forcibly disarm these people.
GERGES: I think what we need to understand, if the thesis is correct, if the thesis that Iraqi Islamists, Paula, and nationalists are leading the insurgency, not foreign factors or al Qaeda terrorists, then the worst-case scenario you can do is basically to alienate the Sunni community further and drive many members of the Sunni community into the arms of the insurgents. There is no military solution. The solution is political, rather than military.
ZAHN: Final question for you. Ted Kennedy basically saying today that this war in Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam. Is it?
GERGES: I think the situation in Iraq is highly volatile. I think the U.S. occupation is losing control of the situation. The situation is spinning out of control. Not only the Sunni community is being embittered, Paula, now. Now many Shias feel dissatisfied with the new order being constructed in Iraq.
And if the insurgency, if the uprising spreads out to many areas in the Shiite areas, as the situation has evolved over the last 40 hours, the United States will face a classical, costly and prolonged war. The very political project, American project, could be endangered in the next few months.
ZAHN: Fawaz Gerges, General Shepperd, I don't think people are too thrilled about the pessimistic view that you both offered tonight, but we appreciate your insight this evening. Thank you so much.
What this weekend's violence means for Iraq's future. Will it change U.S. plans to put the country back in Iraqi hands by the end of June?
And she's one of the president's closest advisers. And, Thursday, she will take center stage at the 9/11 hearings. We're going have a revealing look at National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.
Also, some new questions being raised about the death of rock icon Kurt Cobain, why some people now say police should reopen the case, that we're talking about murder here.
ZAHN: Welcome back.
The June 30 deadline to transfer control of Iraq is quickly approaching. But the latest outbreak of violence shows the country is far from stable. President Bush reiterated today that he is standing firm on the transfer date.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our intention is to make sure the deadline remains the same. I believe we can transfer authority by June 30. We're working toward that day, obviously constantly in touch with Jerry Bremer on the transfer of sovereignty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: But is June 30 a realistic deadline?
To debate that, we're joined by Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment. He joins us from Washington tonight. Also with us is John Fund, columnist for "The Wall Street Journal."
Good to see both of you.
So, John, is June 30 a viable date?
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Yes, it is a viable date because, after June 30, I think we'll have some of the anger and some of the resentment piled up against the Americans gone. I think we'll still have an American security force.
ZAHN: Where is it going to go?
FUND: Well, there will be an Iraqi government in place. We appointed the defense minister and the information minister and the intelligence minister this week. I think those are going to be important elements of the new democratic Iraq.
ZAHN: All right, Joe, you heard what John Fund said. The U.S. is on target for the June 30 transfer of power. Do you agree?
JOE CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: June 30 is a phony date to hand transfer of power to a phony government. We're less than 90 days away. We have no idea who we are transferring it to. There is no real armed force to back up the people that we do transfer it to. And the administration doesn't seem to have a plan for actually how to do this. The Iraqi occupation is turning into a disaster. It is bad and it is going to get worse.
FUND: Many of the same people who say it is a disaster also thought that the invasion was going to be a disaster.
We have officials appointed this week. It is not a phony government. I think it does have popular support. And the most important thing is we cannot show weakness, because if we move the date, then I think the terrorists are only going to be emboldened. Nothing so concentrates attention as a deadline. If we meet the deadline, I think we can do -- make an awful lot of progress.
ZAHN: Well, Joe, you're not suggesting the date be moved. You're saying that it is an artificial deadline to begin with.
CIRINCIONE: The president has backed himself into a corner. He listened to the optimists that told him everything would go smoothly, that he really believed his own propaganda. Here we are 90 days away and we have nobody to hand it to.
Let me give you an example of the problem. The Iraqi Governing Council today, what we sort of planned would handle over power to, issued an edict demanding that all militia disarm. Well, I don't know any single militiaman who handed in their gun today. The problem is, there are very real armed forces in Iraq not controlled by the United States that are contending for power. Al-Sadr exercised his muscle on Sunday. And instantly thousands of armed militia took to the street in coordinated activities in five different cities.
This is a very bad sign for the United States. But worse, the Iraqi militia that we supposedly are training to provide for security just melted away. That's the biggest failure that we have seen just in the last 24 hours. The militia doesn't really exist. It is a paper
ZAHN: What about that, John Fund? You heard the numbers, that you need some 75,000 Iraqi police officers to maintain some kind of calm in the streets. And now only 3,000 have been properly trained. That's a problem, isn't it?
FUND: Trained up to Western standards. There are a lot that are further along on the pipeline and will be finished with their training by the 12 weeks.
ZAHN: They're not where they need to be right now, are they?
FUND: In 12 weeks, they will be.
And let's be honest. This cleric obviously has a lot of followers. He's now holed up in a city and his followers are surrounding him. I think we can get him out within 12 weeks. And I don't think we're going have to kill very many Iraqis to do it.
ZAHN: Is that what you fear, Joe?
CIRINCIONE: Well, Sadr has played a very smart game. You see, he's not really holed up. He moved to Kufa, which is one of the three holiest cities in Iraq.
He understands that the U.S. cannot come into get him without triggering a huge backlash in the Shia community. He's playing this very well. We basically have three options at this point. One, crush him like a bug. That's the strategy many people like, call in the forces, try to get him, lots of downside to that. Two, call for help. See if the U.N. or NATO can come in to bail us out. Not too many people eager to come and do that. Three, the British solution, divide and conquer, see if there is some way we can get Sistani and the really powerful Shia cleric to move against Sadr himself.
That probably has the best chance of working. But it is not clear that Paul Bremer has the diplomatic finesse to pull that off.
ZAHN: You get the final word tonight, John Fund. FUND: He's 31 years old. He's a minor cleric. He's not nearly as powerful, as Joe mentions, as the other clerics. I think we can wait him out.
ZAHN: All right, gentlemen, thank you for both of your perspectives this evening, John Fund, Joe Cirincione.
Coming up, a Texas mom who stoned her three children, killing two, is declared not guilty by reason of insanity. I'll ask the man who defended Andrea Yates what is different about this case.
And Ozzy Osbourne reveals that his daughter is now in drug rehab. We're going to look at whether addiction is genetic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OZZY OSBOURNE, SINGER: For every good thing that has happened to the Osbournes, there has been an equal share of bad things in life. Sharon got cancer. I came off the bike. My son went into rehab with drugs. Now my daughter has gone into rehab with drugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Well, Ozzy Osbourne's battle with drugs and alcohol is well known. But now it seems his daughter is struggling with substance abuse. And he believes it is a family illness.
This past Friday, Osbourne told CNN's Larry King that his daughter Kelly is addicted to painkillers. He says her drug problem is genetic, which raises the question, what role if any did genes play in addiction?
Joining us now from Los Angeles, addiction specialist and frequent contributor Dr. Drew Pinsky.
Hi, Doctor. How you doing, tonight?
DR. DREW PINSKY, AUTHOR, "CRACKED": Hi, Paula. I'm fine. How are you?
ZAHN: I'm fine, thank you.
So does this surprise you at all? Is it in the family's genes?
PINSKY: Oh, absolutely.
Listen, it's in fact a defining element of the disease. People that talk about what this disease is of addiction always throw in as first principal that it is a biological disorder with a genetic basis. I can tell you as someone that has been in this field for 14, 15 years now I've treated roughly 7,500 patients with this condition and I have never admitted a patient where I couldn't see a clear evidence of a genetic heritage for addiction. It follows certain ethnic patterns. It follows certain family systems. And whether or not that individual was raised around the addicted person, it doesn't matter. That genetic, biological potential is there. It is about 50 percent per child whether one or both parents have the disease.
ZAHN: Let's listen to more of what Sharon and Ozzy had to say on Friday night about what they perceive as this family addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
SHARON OSBOURNE, TALK SHOW HOST: I am angry, I am let down, I feel I've failed, again, he's failed again. It's just happened again, and I just can't take it, can't take it.
LARRY KING, HOST: You think somewhere you went wrong, Oz?
O. OSBOURNE: Well, you know, it's -- it's a -- I believe it's a family illness. Because I am a drug addict.
KING: Genetic? You think it's genetic?
O. OSBOURNE: I think it's in the genes, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: All right, Doctor, you said not every child of an addict is destined to become one, but maybe 50 percent of these cases, siblings will make that split. What about the environment here? These kids hardly lived a typical American life.
PINSKY: Well, that's true. And environment certainly does have a potential to increase the probability of the biology being expressed. Genes do not mean destiny.
But the fact is, to hear Sharon -- heart breaking over her kids having disease states, of course she feels very upset, but if you have ever had the pleasure of meeting Kelly and Jack, these are wonderful young adults. They're tremendous human beings. They're great kids. They have to manifest a disease.
And for Sharon to feel like a failure because a disease is manifest really kind of breaks my heart, in fact. The reality is that, yes, certainly there are aspects of their parenting that may have come to bear that increased the probability that this genetic predisposition emerges. It may have been as simple as having a drug- addicted father that is sufficient to cause this genetic element to emerge.
To say that she failed as a parent, that's a far cry. I think it is unfortunate when we bash parents when kids get addiction. The fact is, again, these kids are great individuals. They have a tough disease. But you can't say that she failed as a parent because the kids manifest addiction.
ZAHN: Well, it is not like she has enough to go through with her own battle with cancer. It is sad to watch this all play out in such a public way.
ZAHN: Dr. Drew Pinsky, thanks so much.
PINSKY: My pleasure. Thank you.
ZAHN: And she will be front and center this week before the 9/11 Commission. We're going to look at what is in store for Condoleezza Rice when she faces some very tough questions.
Also, he was an icon for the grunge generation, did Kurt Cobain really kill himself? I'm going to talk with two investigative journalists who say they have evidence it was murder.
And tomorrow, a 17-year-old boy sent to prison for killing his parents, he says a detective tricked him into confessing. Should he get a new trial?
ZAHN: And we're back.
Here is what you need to know now. The U.S. is cracking down on attacks on Iraq on two fronts.
Jim Clancy gives us the latest from front lines.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. was battling on two fronts Monday.
In Fallujah, U.S. marines shut down highways and warned residents to stay indoors even as they targeted suspected strongholds of insurgents there. There was some fighting still no one is pretending this is the major push into Fallujah. On the second front, it was a radical Shia Muslim cleric who seemed to make the most headlines in Iraq. Muqtada al-Sadr wants U.S. forces out of the country. His militant followers spurned a wave of violence against American troops causing the heaviest U.S. casualties in Baghdad in any single day since the war.
Monday, U.S. forces say they would take down his private army.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: Not only are militias banned inside of Iraq, and when those militias turn to violent acts where we take actions against them. But we'll also go for the leadership, their leadership organs, the people at the top, the people in the middle, the people that are inciting, the people that are planning, the people that are executing the violence.
CLANCY: Though the U.S. increased appreciate from the air, al- Sadr supporters torched an armored vehicle on the ground in a Baghdad suburb. To the south in Basra, al-Sadr supporters forced their way into the governor's office. They are now in a standoff with British forces. Muqtada al-Sadr has a power base, mostly among the urban unemployed and poor. His own militia, his own courts, his own prisons. Add to all of that, he has his own arrest warrant outstanding and in connection with the murder a year ago of a rival cleric.
The pro-Western anti-Saddam Abdul Majid al-Khoei was escorted into Iraq by the U.S. military. He started to establish himself in his home, the holy city of Najaf. Only days after his return he was stabbed and slashed to death in the shadow of one of Shia Islam's holiest shrines. Already some followers and aides to al-Sadr have been arrested in the murder probe but the big question no one can answer is whether these clashes have left Muqtada al-Sadr weakened or whether he will emerge stronger in the eyes of Iraq Shia Muslim majority. Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
ZAHN: And, of course the big question for Condoleezza Rice on this Thursday is when did she know it and what exactly did she know? She will testify before the 9/11 Commission. We'll look ahead at what to expect from her testimony. We'll be right back.
ZAHN: On Thursday, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will testify under oath before the 9/11 Commission. Rice has been an adviser and close friend of the president. Some say the credibility of the Bush administration rests on her testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm looking forward to the conversation. I'm looking forward to Condi testifying. I made a decision to allow her to do so because I was assured that it would not jeopardize executive privilege and she'll be great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So what is at stake not only for Condoleezza Rice but this administration? We turn now to Peter Bergen, CNN terrorism analyst and fellow at the New America Foundation. And Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow in foreign policy studies at the Brookings Institution.
ZAHN: So Peter, based on what we know this evening, do you believe that Condoleezza Rice prior to 9/11 took the threat of al Qaeda seriously enough?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it is hard for me to read her mind. But I think if you do a database search of all her public statements and writings you will find that before 9/11 she never mentioned al Qaeda and she only mentioned bin Laden once in passing in a radio interview. So at least publicly she never mentioned al Qaeda and only once mentioned bin Laden. I think that sort of speaks for itself. ZAHN: Michael, does that speak for itself? Do you think she understood the threat that she had been warned about coming from al Qaeda?
MICHAEL O'HANLON, FOREIGN POLICY STUDIES, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think Peter is right. I also think we can overstate her complicity or her guilt in the recent Richard Clarke aftermath because, let's face it she had eight months on the job, the Clinton administration had eight years on the job. She did not turn back any of the specific and concrete processes or procedures the Clinton administration had instituted. She didn't pay enough attention, she didn't take it to the next level of vigilance, I'm not sure I can be as critical of her or this administration in general as Mr. Clarke was.
ZAHN: Peter, what do you think is at stake when it comes to her testimony on Thursday? .
BERGEN: I mean, she's the person best positioned to say what the Bush administration policy on all this was. And she'll be under oath. I want to pick up from my last thing. You know, there is, I think, a disconnect between some in the administration that said we treated this threat as urgently or more urgently than the Clinton administration yet the national security adviser never mentioned the people threatening us, al Qaeda or bin Laden.
ZAHN: Isn't that a serious disconnect, Michael?
O'HANLON: It is. She did not distinguish herself and neither did President Bush who ultimately is of course the most accountable here. However, I would also say that what are the specific charges? Richard Clarke, for example, has proposed we should have gone to war against the Taliban between January 20, 2001 and September 11. Or at least, that's the implication of what he's saying. That's simply not realistic to have expected that out of the Bush administration. But I think you have to be specific and concrete about what they should have and could have done.
ZAHN: Peter, you wrote an op-ed piece in the "New York Times" over the weekend, laying out the questions you would ask if you were sitting on the commission. Finally tonight, give us the three, you think, most important questions that should be posed to her.
BERGEN: I would say, No. 1, is it true, as Dick Clarke has charged, that of the hundred or so meetings of the principals or cabinet level officials in the Bush administration only one was about terrorism? Is that true and if it is true, what does it mean? Secondly, I would like -- I think it would be useful to get a response to the question about the lack of American response to the USS Cole attack.
Finally, we put the Taliban on notice under the Clinton administration, under the Bush administration that if al Qaeda attacked us we would hold the Taliban immediately responsible. Why wasn't there a plan on place to go and attack the Taliban on 9/12? I'm sure there are good answers to that. That's a reasonable question also. ZAHN: Michael, you get the last word tonight on any closing thought on those questions you just heard Peter pose?
O'HANLON: I also would want to know whether Condoleezza Rice learned all the Clinton administration did, for example, to prevent the millennium attacks, which was really a major accomplishment of the Clinton administration for which it deserves much credit. There were no processes or new rules or laws set up to do that. It was simply sheer leg work at the last minute during the period of time leading up to the millennium. I want to know if Dr. Rice studied that enough and why she didn't institute similar procedures after all the chatter we heard in the spring and summer of 2001.
ZAHN: It will be interesting to hear if any of these questions are reasked on Thursday. Thanks so much.
The grunge world grieved ten years ago when Kurt Cobain died. His death was ruled a suicide. Now there are some new questions. I will ask two investigative journalists who are now saying they believe Cobain was murdered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No fingerprints found on the shotgun. Dead men don't wipe fingerprints off their own guns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Are you ready for a workout? wait until you see what goes on at The Lord's Gym.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury unanimously and by a preponderance of the evidence find the defendant Deanna Laney not guilty by reason of insanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Deanna Laney, a Texas woman who admitted to stoning her three sons killing two of them will in our go a hospital instead of a jail cell. But another Texas woman who admitted to killing her children, Andrea Yates, is serving a life sentence.
So why the different verdicts?
Joining us now from Houston to discuss the insanity defense is criminal defense attorney George Parnham. He represented Yates in her trial. Always good to see you, sir. Welcome.
GEORGE PARNHAM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Can you explain to us how this verdict was arrived at? ZAHN: Sure. Paula, obviously the jury listened to all of the evidence to include the opinions of qualified experts to a person testified that this woman Mrs. Laney, was in fact legally insane. And the jury heard it and adopted those opinions and found her not guilty by reason of insanity under Texas law.
ZAHN: All right. Help us understand the difference of the two verdicts. The jury in your trial, the Andrea Yates trial, did find her insane but also found her guilty. Not so in this case.
PARNHAM: That is correct. I believe, Paula, that what has happened is that there has been a conscious awareness within the minds of the public and specifically the jury pools throughout the state of mental health issues directly related to the case of Andrea Yates and the widespread publicity, of course that it perceived and the verdict that many people now scratched their heads about. But Andrea Yates put women's mental health specifically on the front page, if you will, and I believe that the jury pool in Tyler knew about this case obviously and was well aware of the inequities that occurred in Andrea's case. And in effect perhaps had a predisposition. It was a wonderful issue or case of picking a terrific jury in the case in Tyler.
ZAHN: Interesting to go further and point out some of the similarities between the two cases. Andrea Yates, of course, blaming the murders of her kids on Satan. And in this latest case, Miss Laney blaming it on God.
Why is that a significant difference?
PARNHAM: Well, apparently it did reach a level of significance in the testimony of some expert witnesses, both in the Yates case and the Laney case. In effect some of the testimony dealt with the fact that Andrea Yates, being compelled by Satan, knowing that Satan was evil, therefore equates into knowing what she is doing is wrong. And Laney's case, the psychotic delusion dealt with God who obviously equates into goodness and therefore Mrs. Laney did not know what she was doing was wrong. I quarrel with that particular example to give a jury in order to have a jury determine whether or not a person spends the rest of their life in the penitentiary, or goes to a mental institution to be properly treated. Psychosis is psychosis. Mental illness is mental illness. And let's keep medicine and psychiatric medicine in the courtroom equation.
ZAHN: Mr. Parnham, you raise some interesting issues that all juries I suppose at some time must confront. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
PARNHAM: Thank you, Paula, for asking me.
ZAHN: And we're going turn now it a story that some say is an unsolved murder. For the grunge generation, Thursday will be the 10th anniversary of the day the music died. Rocker Kurt Cobain was found dead on April 8th, 1994. Now officially his death at the age of 27 was ruled a suicide by heroin overdose and shotgun blast. But there has been speculation from the very beginning that he was actually killed.
Here is entertainment correspondent Sylvia Vargas.
SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: He captivated the music world with "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and 10 years after his death Kurt Cobain's impact is still being felt today. The Seattle native and his band Nirvana released only three studio albums. But critics say their music impacted a generous.
CARYN GANZ, ASST. EDITOR, "SPIN MAGAZINE": Nothing would be the same without Nirvana. It changed everything about radio of that era and you can still hear the effects today.
VARGAS: As Cobain's fame soared, his personal life was plagued by heroin use and his fascination with suicide. On April 5th, 1994, Cobain left his wife Courtney Love, his daughter Francis and the music world behind. At his Seattle home, police say the 27-year-old rocker injected himself with a massive dose of heroin, put a shotgun in his mouth and fired. Even though authorities ruled his death a suicide, speculation continues to surface surrounding Cobain's death. And now a new book claims to have evidence to support a conspiracy theory. It suggests Cobain was killed and that Courtney Love's behavior following his death was suspicious. But many fans suspect the author's motives, not Love's.
GANZ: It seems like an opportunistic time for the second book to come out, especially with Courtney Love in the dire straits she's in now.
VARGAS: Ten years later, the controversy and Cobain's music live on.
Sibila Vargas, CNN, Los Angeles.
ZAHN: Max Wallace and Ian Halperin lay out their case in that new book called "Love and Death: The Murder of Kurt Cobain."
They join us now along with Tom Grant, a former private investigator, who was the source of some of the evidence cited in this book. Good to see all of you.
So, Max and Ian, forever there has been speculation that Kurt Cobain's death was not as a result of suicide but murder.
What new evidence do you have that actually supports that?
IAN HALPERIN, CO-AUTHOR, "LOVE AND DEATH: THE MURDER OF KURT COBIAN": Well, we have a lot of stuff in the book "Love and Death." What we outline specifically that it is impossible that Kurt Cobain committed suicide. If you look at the forensic evidence, he had three times a lethal dose of heroin in his system when he died. Forensic pathological experts say it is literally impossible for someone to -- with that much heroin to pick up a shotgun and try to blow their head off.
ZAHN: We have talked with experts who suggest that by that time of his life Cobain was using a lot of heroin. And you can actually build up a resistance to it. So, they say it is plausible he could have done it and not only that, we're on the phone today with the King County Medical Examiner's Office, they maintain today that the manner of death was suicide, as a result of a contact perforating shotgun wound to the head.
MAX WALLACE, CO-AUTHOR, "LOVE AND DEATH: THE MURDER OF KURT COBAIN": That seems to be the case. He was killed with a gun, not with the heroin. We have never said the at the heroin is enough to kill someone immediately. The forensic pathologist we have spoken to say that that kind of a dose would have incapacitated him within seconds, yet he rolls down his sleeve, put await heroin kit, picked up the shotgun, put it in his mouth and pulled the trigger. They always say tolerance, the medical examiner said it is tolerance, heroin addicts have a higher tolerance, which is true. Yet they've never been able to find a single case in American history where somebody has ingested this dose of heroin and not been unconscious within seconds. So if it is possible, show us.
ZAHN: Who do you think would want him dead?
WALLACE: Well, here is what is new in our book. We have obtained access to the exclusive case tapes of Tom Grant who tape all his conversations with Courtney, with Courtney's lawyer, with the police medical examiner, Kurt's friends from the moment he was brought on to the case by Courtney to find her missing husband. We have the tapes where her own lawyer Rosemary Carol (ph), her entertainment attorney, the godmother of her child, of Kurt and Courtney's baby, is telling Grant that she believes there was murder, she believes the suicide note was forged, urging him to look into the investigation. Grant's been vilified as a conspiracy theorist. Perhaps we have too over the years. Yet it is her own attorney that is telling him that Kurt wasn't suicidal, that Kurt -- that they were divorcing, they were in the middle of a divorce, she revealed. Kurt had approached her and asked her to take Courtney out of the will that she was just preparing.
TOM GRANT, FORMER PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: There was a separation going on and a divorce in the works. Kurt was in the process of leaving Courtney. She had an album coming out pretty soon. Kurt was loved and adored by millions of fans. Right at the time that Courtney was going to make her big move, with her new album coming out.
WALLACE: One of the pieces of new evidence we discovered is that Kurt, about an hour before he left the rehab center on April 1, a week before he was found dead, he booked two tickets out of Seattle, for himself and a mystery woman who Courtney believed to be Kurt's new girlfriend. She was obsessed with this woman. You hear her on the tapes asking Grant to bug this woman's apartment, to hire a hacker to hack into United Airlines to find out who he was flying with, who this other woman is. So you can see she's obsessive, very, very jealous.
ZAHN: She vehemently -- and they didn't give a statement today -- but in the past, she's vehemently denied having anything to do with the death of her husband.
HALPERIN: I would love to sit here with Courtney Love and get her side of the story.
GRANT: Having anything to do with what?
ZAHN: Having anything to do with his death.
GRANT: Oh, of course.
WALLACE: And we don't actually accuse her of having anything to do with the death. All we ask is that she open up the medical examiner's report, release it. What has she got to hide? Medical examiners report will reveal suicide or murder. It can be examined by forensic experts. There is no reason for her to block that. But she's put up every obstacle of getting at the truth.
ZAHN: All right, let me ask you this finally tonight. There are people out there who actually believe what the police department is saying, that this thing was a suicide and they feel that you're just trying to make money off this book.
HALPERIN: We're just doing our job. For the hours we worked on this, we worked years and years on this case. It's -- the money is not the reason why we're here. The fact is that one of rock's true great icons, one of the greatest rock stars ever possibly was murdered, and we want to get to the bottom of it. It's ode to Kurt's fans, and especially on the anniversary of his death, they want to know how their hero dies.
WALLACE: It isn't about money, it is about justice.
ZAHN: Mark, Ian, Tom, thank you for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
HALPERIN: Thank you.
WALLACE: Thank you.
ZAHN: Time to shift gears. Next, we'll give you a workout like you've never seen before. Praise the Lord.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Although salvation is free, it will cost you $34 a month to work out at Lord's Gym.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Regular visits to the gym may be the best way to keep that six-pack nice and tight. But now one Florida health club is going a step further. They get fitness buffs a more spiritual workout. Here is Bruce Burkhardt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.
BRUCE BURKHARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If it's true that our bodies are our temple, then this is the place to worship. The Lord's Gym in Claremont, Florida, outside Orlando.
PAUL SORCHY, OWNER, LORD'S GYM: Although salvation is free, it will cost you $34 a month to work out at Lord's Gym.
All right, let's get the neck to move.
BURKHARDT: Paul Sorchy, a chiropractor who makes adjustments on patients, would like to adjust the way many Americans work out.
SORCHY: The dress code says if you're wearing some tight pants that are a little bit too tight, just please let your t-shirt hang over your heinie.
BURKHARDT: But that's only one of the things that separates the Lord's Gym from other workout places. There is the Garden of Eden, where smoothies with names like land of milk and honey come in two sizes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: David and Goliath.
BURKHARDT: How about an energy or power bar? Make that a Bible bar. The spinning class is called "chariots of fire." And here it's not yoga, but yo-god.
SORCHY: Yoga in itself as far as an exercise, wonderful. As a philosophy, we don't allow that here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you make this thing work?
BURKHARDT: And for those who have never darkened the door of a gym, this place is a bit less intimidating. It's supposed to be that way.
(on camera): Why is it better than a regular gym?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because a regular gym is nothing but -- more like a meat market than a gym.
BURKHARDT: A meat market?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BURKHARDT: You see women around here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, but it's Christian atmosphere. Christians are supposed to act a certain way.
BURKHARDT: Come here often? What's your sign?
(voice-over): Pickup lines here are scarcer than cuss words. Christian and non-Christian alike said the same thing. Here, there is no posing, just working out.
Some 3,000 members sweated out here, and being Christian is not required for membership.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, but it agrees with my lifestyle. Maybe not my theology, but my lifestyle.
BURKHARDT: Though the walls are covered in scripture ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Read it all the time.
BURKHARDT (on camera): Do you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like walking through the Bible.
BURKHARDT (voice-over): No one is in your face preaching.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no pressure. They don't question what religion you are. They just let you be.
BURKHARDT: And the Lord's Gym may be coming to a strip mall near you. Sorchy and his partners, who own a Lord's Gym in Jacksonville, are in the process of franchising the idea. And though cussing is frowned upon around here, a tough workout can bring forth some unchristian-like sentiments.
(on camera): Increased resistance? I don't want to.
(voice-over): Bruce Burkhardt, CNN, Claremont, Florida.
ZAHN: No four letter words uttered in that gym. That wraps it up for all of us here this evening. For all of those that you buy into this theory that men are from Mars and women are from Venus, tomorrow we're going to help you understand men through their dogs.
Again, thanks for dropping by tonight. Hope to see you same time, same place tomorrow night. Good night.
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