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Interview With William H. Macy; Border Patrol Battles New Immigration Proposals; Showdown in New Hampshire Nears

Aired January 23, 2004 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome. Thanks so much for joining us on this Friday night. I'm Paul Zahn.
The world, the news, the names, the faces, and where we go from here on this January 23, 2004.


ZAHN (voice-over): Four days to go before the nation's first primary.




ZAHN: Words of advice from a man who has hit the presidential trail in the Granite State.

The battle ahead over President Bush's offer the go easier on illegal immigrants. Look who's lining up to fight the president, the U.S. Border Patrol.

Glamour and glitz at Sunday's Golden Globe awards.


WILLIAM H. MACY, ACTOR: This is Tick Tock McGlaughlin.


ZAHN: I'll be talking with one of this year's nominees, actor William H. Macy.


ZAHN: All that ahead, but first, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now at the top of the hour.

A senior U.S. official tells, CNN coalition troops have captured a top al Qaeda operative in Iraq. Others have been arrested with ties to the terrorist group, but this could be the first high-ranking member of al Qaeda captured there. The CIA says a former U.N. inspector will take over the search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. He replaces David Kay, whose resignation was announced today. Kay went to Iraq after the war to search for WMDs. He said he found mostly documents and no actual weapons.

In the Kobe Bryant rape trial, a judge ordered some medical records of Bryant's teenage accuser destroyed. The records from an emergency room visit before the alleged attack were mistakenly sent to Bryant's attorneys. The attorneys have been referring to a suicide attempt. The judge told them to stop it.

Meanwhile, the showdown in New Hampshire just four days away is "In Focus" tonight. Since the Iowa caucuses on Monday, everything has changed for the Democratic candidates, with Senator John Kerry now on top and ahead of Howard Dean in most of the polls.

One man who has taken that roller-coaster ride, former senator and presidential candidate Gary Hart, who finished ahead in Iowa in 1984, then rolled over the opposition in the Granite State.

I talked with Hart and CNN senior analyst Jeff Greenfield. And I started off by asking the former senator what stands between Kerry and a win in New Hampshire.


HART: Well, I think 48 hours and a lot of campaigning. He's still got to meet a lot of voters. My belief is, regardless of the polls, that there are still a lot of undecideds. Usually, in the last 48 to 72 hours, a good 10 or 15 percent of the participants in this primary will make up their mind. Those are valuable votes. And Senator Kerry has to earn every one.

ZAHN: Is it over for Governor Howard Dean in New Hampshire?

HART: Oh, I wouldn't say that. I don't -- first of all, let's wait and see what the voters of New Hampshire say. And then I think the analysts and pundits and others will have a lot to say about who wins, who gets the ticket to the next state, as they say, and, by the way, who has enough money to go now into about six primaries all at once.

ZAHN: How much do you believe of John Kerry's surge is a result, Senator, of voters getting cold feet regarding Howard Dean?

HART: I would like to believe it's a more positive analysis of both who has the best chance to win against President Bush, but also who would be the best president in governing this country. And I think, if you use that standard, John Kerry is head and shoulders above the other candidates.

ZAHN: How does the road map look come Wednesday morning, Jeff Greenfield?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Twenty years ago, I came up to here to do a story about the hopefully outclassed Hart campaign about to be clobbered by the Mondale juggernaut. And 24 hours later, we turned it into a piece about the brilliant Hart campaign overwhelming the Mondale campaign.

But assuming that John Kerry comes out the winner, February 3 is a very different kind of election, or primary day, seven primaries and caucuses, most of them in the so-called red states, cultural culturally conservative, South Carolina being one of the big prizes. And, for John Kerry, the challenge, should he remain the winner and about to be crowned by everybody who was writing him off a while ago, the question then is, can a Northeastern Democrat with a basically liberal profile go into South Carolina, into Missouri, into Arizona, into New Mexico and the others and win there?

If he pulls that off, then maybe we can start talking about, you know, inexorability. One other quick point. I do not think, even if Howard Dean craters here, that we should assume that he can't, with his money and core supporters, look down the road, maybe even as far away as Michigan on the 10th and Wisconsin on the 17th, and say, OK, I've taken a serious hit, I'm going to redefine myself and give it one more shot.

We have to stop this insane habit of writing people in and out on the basis of one primary and polls. We just don't know yet.

ZAHN: There are a number of analysts who believe that John Kerry cannibalized his campaign to win in Iowa. What kind of shape is he in financially?

HART: Well, I just got to New Hampshire today. And all I see are volunteers and workers by the hundreds in the headquarters and thousands out -- outside this headquarters.

And what that tells me, a person with some experience, both as a campaigner and as a candidate, that he has a very strong organization here, and I think, from what I can tell, strong organizations springing up and developing and evolving in the next two or three tiers of primaries and caucuses.

ZAHN: So, Jeff, a final thought on what fund-raising action comes out of what happens Tuesday night.

GREENFIELD: Well, the Edwards campaign has said that they've got enough money through February 3. They're counting on a win in South Carolina to refuel. Absent that, they've got a problem.

The Kerry camp has barely begun to spend a dime in these February 3 states. Even Lieberman, not to mention Clark, Dean, and Edwards, have been spending in South Carolina, Arizona, Oklahoma. But, you know, victory has not only 1,000 fathers, but 1,000 contributors. And there's no question that a win in New Hampshire will fuel the Kerry campaign.

One of his problems, quickly, is, John Edwards is in the public financing system, so all of his dollars are doubled up to a point. Every dollar John Kerry raises is only that, because he's not getting matching funds. So the money issue is still going to be very relevant once we get out of New Hampshire and then head down toward these next rounds of states.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, thank you for both of your perspectives. Appreciate your joining us.

HART: Thank you.


ZAHN: And now we are going to take a look at who has the most to win or lose next Tuesday and how New Hampshire sets the stage for a string of important contests just around the corner.

Joining me again from Manchester is "TIME" magazine columnist and frequent contributor Joe Klein, and Lisa Caputo, who was Hillary Clinton's press secretary when she was first lady.

Welcome to both of you.

So, Joe, you followed the comeback kid's, Bill Clinton's campaign in '92. Is there a similar feeling in the comeback Kerry campaign?

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Clinton's campaign was quite different. He didn't really win until he got down South. And he lost a lot of primaries, including the one here.

Kerry won the first caucus and is in a strong position going in. I'm kind of thinking architectural thoughts tonight, Paula. The question in New Hampshire is, how high is John Kerry's ceiling? How much of a blowout could this election be? The question is also, how low is Howard Dean's floor? I mean, his support is eroding away. Is it going to go below 20 percent? That would be pretty remarkable.

And the third big question about New Hampshire is that there is a growing battle between John Edwards and Wesley Clark for who's going to be the Southern candidate. That battle, oddly enough, is happening up here in the snow.

ZAHN: Let's let Lisa weigh in on that for a moment.

Do you have any idea how high John Kerry's ceiling is and how low Howard Dean's floor can go?

LISA CAPUTO, FORMER HILLARY CLINTON SPOKESWOMAN: I think it's an excellent question. And I think there's a wild card here, which is the independent and undecided voters up in New Hampshire.


ZAHN: Which makes up the bulk of the voting public there.

CAPUTO: Which is the bulk of the voting population.

Over 37 percent of the voters in New Hampshire are independents. And if you hearken back to 1984, Gary Hart really went after that part of the electorate and actually ended up trouncing Walter Mondale. When you look back to what happened just this past go-around in 2000 with Al Gore, Bill Bradley definitely courted that group of people.

Howard Dean has been courting that group of people very aggressively. So has General Clark. So it will be interesting to see if the fruits of their labor will actually come to fruition, if you will, on primary day.

ZAHN: And all of that is based on turnout, isn't it, Joe, to a certain extent, and the aggressive efforts that are made to get people to get to the polls?


ZAHN: By and large, New Hampshire voters vote in big numbers.

KLEIN: Turnout is not a problem here. Everybody turns out. They get 80 percent in this primary.

But there are other interesting questions. You know, I've been talking to political professionals today and they don't seem all that professional to me right now, because most of them in the other campaigns are conceding this to John Kerry. But the way I see it, there are an awful lot of undecided voters left. And we have like four days, which is like four months in normal time. And it's going to be interesting to see where that 17 to 20 percent of undecided breaks.

ZAHN: If the polls hold, Lisa, come Wednesday morning, who do you suspect is in? Who do you suspect is out? And we're going to put up on the screen one of the latest polls that was done to give people an idea of how commanding Kerry's lead is supposed to be at this hour.

CAPUTO: If the polls hold, obviously, Kerry's in, I think. As we heard earlier in the setup piece, organization and money are key. Field operation is key.

Michael Whouley is running John Kerry's field operation. He's one of the best around. Don't discount as well the Kennedy operation, which was very helpful to Senator Kerry, certainly out in Iowa.


CAPUTO: Well, Ted Kennedy is very loyal to John Kerry and vice versa. That's a political field operation that's going to be very helpful to John Kerry.

The money, the money is key. Howard Dean's raised a lot of money. So it will carry him into the South, clearly, even if he doesn't win or do very well in New Hampshire. If he places second or third, I think he can still go into the South with the money. Money becomes an issue for Joe Lieberman. I think Joe Lieberman will be a big question mark if he doesn't do well in New Hampshire.

I think Clark, again, he's another one who's just starting to raise more and more money, but isn't where, you know, Dean and Kerry and, frankly, Edwards have been with the money.

ZAHN: Sure.

CAPUTO: So money and organization will be key going into the South.

ZAHN: All right, Lisa Caputo, Joe Klein, thank you for joining us tonight.


ZAHN: Coming up, we're going to turn to the new black eye for the company hired to rebuild Iraq, as Halliburton admits to possible kickbacks. I'll talk to an outspoken critic of the Halliburton deal, Senator Frank Lautenberg.

Also, we'll go to Arizona for the news on the six-day-old standoff at a prison where two guards remain hostage tonight.

And I'll be talking with a Border Patrol agent about why so many of his colleagues are furious with the president's immigration reform plan.


ZAHN: There are some new calls tonight for a congressional investigation into Halliburton, the politically connected company being paid by the government to rebuild Iraq.

Halliburton today says two of employees at one of its subsidiaries may have accepted kickbacks. At the same time, the company is refunding $6 million to the Army for cost overruns and admits, some of that overcharge may be due to the payoffs.

One of the loudest critics of the Halliburton deal is Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey. He joins us now.

Welcome, Senator.


ZAHN: All right, so, they're paying back the money.


ZAHN: They've admitted that two employees took kickbacks.


ZAHN: Isn't this evidence that at least Halliburton is attempting to police itself?

LAUTENBERG: Well, they get very little credit for that.

ZAHN: Why?

LAUTENBERG: Because they have a consistent habit of breaking the rules.

They once were accused and paid a fine in Nigeria for bribing officials there for better tax treatment. Then, they were accused of overcharging the Pentagon $61 million last year. This is, again, a regular thing with these people. And I don't know why Vice President Cheney doesn't get out of his financial connection with them once and for all, disown his interest in the company, some $100,000 a year for the next four years, 400,000 shares on option.

He ought to cut that off. It's not right that this company is continuing to profiteer, Paula. That was considered a traitorous thing in the past. And here, they're going ahead and making money all over the place. They charge $2.19 for a gallon of gas to Americans and $1.09 for...

ZAHN: But to be perfectly fair, when you're coming back to your criticism of the vice president, aren't you exaggerating his situation a little bit in a way? You're talking about deferred payment.


ZAHN: You're talking about a package that was negotiated long before he ever became vice president?

LAUTENBERG: Right. But what's the difference? The cash flows.

ZAHN: So you want him to, what, walk away from it?

LAUTENBERG: Well, I'd like the contracts with Halliburton to be rescinded.

Their subsidiary, KBR, is constantly in front of people who are saying they're unable to control their costs. They're accused now of bribing -- of taking kickbacks. They were accused of bribing officials in Nigeria. When does it stop? When do they owe the American people something more than just stuffing their pockets while people are dying on the battlefield?

ZAHN: Is there any indication that this kickback scheme goes further than the two employees we were told about today?

LAUTENBERG: Well, we have no idea.

This is Halliburton. And I don't trust their reporting system, because it constantly is up for repair, for reconsideration. It's not the way that the American government ought to be doing business.

ZAHN: You have asked three separate times for congressional hearings.

LAUTENBERG: That's right.

ZAHN: Based on the news today, does that make that more likely that it will happen or less likely?

LAUTENBERG: No. As a matter of fact, I hope that it won't be less likely, because I've been denied the opportunity for an open investigation of Halliburton's behavior. And I'm sorry that the chairman of the Government Operations Committee has not yet found time. These requests go back several months to schedule these hearings.

ZAHN: You have to acknowledge that Democrats are getting a pretty good ride out of this one. And there are critics of your motivations, who say, if Dick Cheney had nothing to do with Halliburton, we wouldn't be talking about this tonight.

LAUTENBERG: Listen, I wrote a piece of legislation that said that any Cabinet officer's holdings in a company ought to preclude them from getting business from the government. This is too cozy.

And the fact that -- we're not looking for a good ride. What I'm looking for is to treat the American taxpayer fairly and not have these companies profiteering, making all that money and getting a slap on the wrist and a new contract. First, they had a no-bid contract, which was unseemly. And that exploded to over $2 billion. Now they just got a new contract. Is that a reward for bad behavior? We'd never tolerate that in the private sector.

ZAHN: Senator Lautenberg, thank you for dropping by tonight on your birthday. We won't share with anybody what age you turned today.


LAUTENBERG: Thank you.

ZAHN: On to the other side of the story. Are these alleged kickbacks just the tip of the iceberg? And will the scandal become a major issue in the election?

Joining us from Washington is John Fund, a columnist for the online edition of "The Wall Street Journal."

Welcome back, John.


ZAHN: Well, first of all, how damaging do you think this story is out of Halliburton today, the admission that two of its employees accepted kickbacks?

FUND: It doesn't help.

But, first of all, I now understand why Senator Lautenberg lacked the confidence to want to come on and debate me directly, because his statements are just unbelievable. He said this company was a profiteering company and he implied that they were engaged in treasonous behavior. Any time you use the word treason, it's like using the word Nazi. It's a red flag. And I think he really had to back up his statement and he didn't.


ZAHN: Well, he's still sitting here. And I may let him engage with you one on one.


FUND: Well, that would be nice, because when you're talking about treason


ZAHN: What about the issue of the $61 million of overcharges? What is the explanation for that?

FUND: Well, the explanation is, Paula -- you have been in the Middle East. They invented the term bakshish.

If you have $87 billion in contracts going to the Middle East, you're going to get some bad apples. Halliburton discovered this illegal behavior. They fired the employees. They have refunded the money. The inspector general is going to go through this with a fine- tooth comb. Believe me, if there's anything else there, they're going to find it.

The American people deserve a full explanation. Taxpayers deserve full value for their money. And I think they're going to get it.

ZAHN: All right, let's come back.

LAUTENBERG: Well, if you keep on defending Halliburton's behavior, I'm going to have to ask you, why was the bribery charge that they paid to Nigerian officials for better tax treatment part of their scheme?

Why did the Pentagon say they overcharged $61 million? And, by the way, I didn't use the word treasonous. You used the word. I used the word, it would have been traitorous in the past war that I served. And it is. Profiteering is an ugly word, and it suggests an ugly act.


FUND: Senator, you can check the transcript. You know what you said.

Look, Senator, the bottom line is, lots of companies engage in overseas Third World activity. They're going to have people paying bribes. They shouldn't do it. If they get caught, they should pay the consequences. Halliburton has been in business for something like 90 years. That's a long, distinguished record.

I have been in the Middle East. I've talked to the soldiers who have their port-a-potties and their meals provided by Halliburton. They're very grateful for some of the things Halliburton has done. If there are a few bad apples, we have to clear them out. We have to have audits all over the place. (CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: John, do you trust the audit process or do you support what the senator is trying to do with an independent investigation?


FUND: These are career bureaucrats who spend their time with their green eyeshades going through contracts, regardless of party, across administrations, Democrat and Republican. They are not political appointees.

LAUTENBERG: You apparently don't like audits and you don't respect them when you hear it. And you talk about


FUND: You're attacking the integrity of civil servants, who are professional people, who worked in the Clinton administration, which gave Halliburton contracts while you were senator.

LAUTENBERG: This has nothing to do with which administration. Why are you introducing the political side of this?

FUND: Because they're not political appointees. You're attacking the auditors. The auditors are professionals. They're not political appointees.

LAUTENBERG: That's right. No, and I'm attacking Halliburton's record-keeping.


FUND: And the audits which are done by the government.

LAUTENBERG: I ran a big company myself. The audit proved that they overcharged $61 million, according to the Pentagon. What better agency is there to decide what is being spent in that area?

FUND: In the middle of a war conflict, if overcharges are made, if people decide, we need the gas and we're going to pay more than they should, and, ultimately, that's proven to be a mistake and we find out about it and they return the money, no muss, no fuss.

Mistakes are going to be made. These people were caught. Halliburton turned themselves in. They have played by the rules. Let's play by the rules and not use the words traitor, treason, or whatever you're using, to refer to this company and its employees, who are trying to help over there.


ZAHN: Senator, you get the last word tonight.

LAUTENBERG: Well, obviously, Mr. Fund doesn't believe in audits. He doesn't see any value to them. I do. (CROSSTALK)

FUND: I don't believe in attacking your own government's audits, which are done by professionals.

LAUTENBERG: I don't think that overcharges ought to be ignored.


FUND: The auditors that you're criticizing found those overcharges.


ZAHN: All right, John, let's let the senator have the last word here.

LAUTENBERG: The gasoline that was sent to the United States' support system there was $2.19 a gallon; $1.08 was being charged.


LAUTENBERG: Just a minute: $1.08 was being charged for Iraqi needs.


FUND: And that has been uncovered. And that money will be returned.

LAUTENBERG: Oh, I see. You say, if you apologize, it's OK. I don't agree with that, Mr. Fund.

FUND: That's what audits do. Audits uncover mistakes and then they rectify identify them.


ZAHN: Gentlemen, we need to leave it there.

John Fund, Senator Frank Lautenberg, thank you for helping us understand why this is so widely debated.

Coming up, we're going to take you inside the mind of a female suicide bomber in part two of my interview with a Palestinian woman who was stopped before she could kill.

And the fight brewing over the president's plan to ease the rules on illegal immigrants. The opposition is coming from the nation's Border Patrol agents. And we will hear from them tonight.


ZAHN: "We will do it." That was the chilling pledge of a would- be suicide bomber, a Palestinian woman we introduced you to last night. Inside an Israeli prison, she told us how she felt happy, powerful, and close to God when she strapped on 70 pounds of high explosives. What could possibly drive a woman to want to kill innocent bystanders and herself?

Again, John Vause brings us inside the mind of a female suicide bomber.


JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Her name is Thauriya Hamouri. She's small, almost frail. She calls herself a devoted Muslim. She's polite, even friendly. But behind the engaging smile is a woman who wanted to be a suicide bomber. Ready, trained and just days away from blowing herself up to kill as many Israelis as possible.

(on camera): Did you ever think about the women and the children, the Israelis, the Jewish children, the innocent people who would die a horrible death?

THAURIYA HAMOURI, PALESTINIAN (through translator): What I have seen in my life has not given me a chance to think anything of this sort. They started the killings of our children.

VAUSE: Many of the women, Palestinian women, endure what you have endured, have lived through the occupation and are religious as well, but they do not become suicide bombers.

HAMOURI (through translator): I, as a woman, wanted to go down this road because I was convinced of it. Every Palestinian woman has suffered, but everyone chooses their own way to express their pain.

VAUSE: Is there one defining moment, one thing that you can put your finger on that made up your mind that you were going to become a suicide bomber?

HAMOURI (through translator): One day, we have a camp next to us. And soldiers started cursing my father. And this moment, if I could, I would have torn this soldier apart. This moment is the moment that made me hate them, cursing my father in front of me, and he could not raise his head, and they pointed the gun to his head.

VAUSE (voice-over): Her family told us a similar story of her father's humiliation. But her brother, Ahmed (ph), said no one else in the family reacted like his sister.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I am very proud of her. Some men do not dare to go ahead and do such a thing.

VAUSE: Two days before her mission in May, 2002, Hamouri left her backpack and explosives with her trainer and went to visit a family friend at this house in Tulkarem. Acting on a tip, the Israelis arrested her there. Later, she went on to make a full confession. But Hamouri remains unrepentant.

HAMOURI (through translator): I cried. I really cried, because it didn't happen.

VAUSE: She is now serving a six-year prison sentence, along with 78 other women, arrested for what Israel says were terrorist activities. News of a suicide bombing at a Gaza checkpoint the day before had already reached the jail.

(on camera): A woman blew herself up in Gaza, killing four Israelis. She also left two children behind. How could a woman do that and leave her children behind? Do you know?

HAMOURI (through translator): The girls of the prison discuss this incident. We are human beings, too. A mother of two left behind two children. But we all know how children have been killed at checkpoints. The mother could face death in her own home. Her children will carry the honor of martyrdom. This is a very important source of pride.

VAUSE (voice-over): In 4 1/2 years, Hamouri will be released. And she says, if nothing has changed, if there is still no peace with Israel, she would, at the very least, consider trying again, and she would encourage others as well.

John Vause, CNN, Ramle Prison, Israel.


ZAHN: A glimpse inside the mind of a suicide bomber, not meant to sympathize with her, not meant to glorify her, and not meant to minimize the pain caused by other bombers.

Coming up, we're going to tell you about the fight coming up between President Bush and members of the border parole. And I'll be talking with a top prison official in Arizona's negotiators. Their hope for a peaceful end to a prison hostage standoff.

Monday, on the day before the New Hampshire primary, we're going to take you inside one candidate's forum.


ZAHN: Welcome back. Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now. John Kerry continues to pull ahead in the polls as the campaign for the New Hampshire primary enters the final stretch. CNN's senior political correspondent Candy Crowley joins us now from Manchester with the very latest on the race. Hi, Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Paula. To Iowa's victor goes some major mo. John Kerry is sitting pretty among likely voters in New Hampshire. The latest CNN/Gallup tracking poll shows in the three days following the Iowa vote, Kerry racked up a 12-point lead over Howard Dean in New Hampshire.

With more than a third of voters saying they could change their mind, Howard Dean may be down, but he is not out. He talks to capacity crowds reminding voters of his credentials as an outsider and his record as Vermont's governor. He also offers up some fuzzy photo ops to soften the edges of that much talked about Iowa concession speech. It was a fairly standard campaign day for the former frontrunner, who, after the worst week of his campaign, seems intent on not making any news, at least of the bad sort.

And Dean's campaign is taking some comfort in the fact that, while Dean is taking a big hit in the polls, his campaign reports a steady flow of Internet contributions, raising $948,000 since the polls closed in Iowa -- Paula.

ZAHN: So is there the sense you get that the freefall in the Dean campaign has been stopped?

CROWLEY: No. I mean, look, we can't tell what's happening in the polls right this second, and it may indeed show that. Dean himself says, look, I think we've turned the corner on this. I think we're moving ahead. But if you look at just what's happened over the past couple of days, Dean has continued to sink.

However, when you look at the polls two weeks before Iowa, you wouldn't have found John Kerry in the lead. So a lot can change, and, again, there's that 37 percent of voters that say they could change their minds. So there's a very clear opening here for Howard Dean. They have not given up, and there certainly could be a reversal of fortunes.

ZAHN: Candy Crowley, thank you for reminding us of that.

Onto our debate tonight, some of the people who protect America's borders are furious with the president for his proposal to give temporary legal status to millions of illegal immigrants.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I propose a new temporary worker program to match willing foreign workers with willing employers when no Americans can be found to fill the job. My temporary worker program will preserve the citizenship path for those who respect the law while bringing millions of hard-working men and women out from the shadows of American life.


ZAHN: The border patrol agents union says the president's plan is a slap in the face to those who do often dangerous work to keep the country safe. T.J. Bonner is a border patrol agent and president of the National Border Patrol Council. He joins us from Washington tonight. Also joining us tonight, John Gay, the co-chair of the Essential Worker Immigration Coalition. Welcome, gentlemen. T.J., I'm going to get started with you tonight. What is your main objection to the president's proposal?

T.J. BONNER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: The main objection is that they're rewarding people who have broken our laws. This will only encourage more people to break our laws. That happened in 1986. We already see it starting to happen, and it will only get worse if something like this is passed. ZAHN: John, why is T.J. wrong?

JOHN GAY, CO-CHAIR, ESSENTIAL WORKER IMMIGRATION COALITION: Well, what the president is talking about is creating a legal system for workers to come to this country to fill economic needs. He's talking about forgiving some illegal behavior, but it's in the interest of all of society that he do this. Let's face it. We're talking about a person who broke into a bank not to rob it, but to sweep the floors.

ZAHN: But what about the point T.J. was making? How can you not interpret this as rewarding those folks who have come into this country illegally?

GAY: Well, I think what we have here is a system where we do not have clean hands either. What we have created is a don't ask, don't tell immigration system that is beneath the U.S. and I think that in order to right a wrong that we have done to these millions of people who are now in second class status, that there needs to be a mechanism for them to earn legal status. Again, the main reason to do so is because it's good for the country.

ZAHN: T.J., what mechanism would you use that you think would be any fairer than what the president has proposed?

BONNER: I think any immigration reform -- and I am not arguing against immigration reform -- but it must be premised on two pillars. One, you do not reward people who broke the laws. And, two, you have to come up with a system that brings immigration under control. Employers sanctions would work if the government would pick up its burden, identify people who have a legitimate right to work in the country, and exclude other people. 99 percent of the people come to this country seeking jobs. We need to turn off the job magnet.

ZAHN: John, do you agree with that assessment that employer sanctions just won't work?

GAY: Well, they already don't work and I think everyone agrees with that, including Mr. Bonner. I'm a little startled to hear him say he wants to turn off the job magnet. We are not producing enough workers in the United States in order to grow as an economy. That's a demographic fact, and I don't think the American people are interested in zero growth or negative growth.

I think we need to understand that this country is going to need workers from abroad and is going to have to create a rational system for those workers to come in. So Mr. Bonner and the border patrol can do the important work of chasing terrorists and drug smugglers, not bus boys and farm hands.

GAY: T.J., do you concede that point at all?

BONNER: No, not at all. I think that he's way off base. Just ask the 3 million people who lost their jobs in the last three years whether they think that there are too many jobs in this country. They will strongly disagree. Ask the people who are on the unemployment rolls. Ask the people who have given up and who have withdrawn from even looking for a job.

ZAHN: John Gay, you get the final word tonight.

GAY: It is unquestioned that there are people who are looking for work, and any immigration program, as the president said, has to protect American workers first. The employer has to offer the job to an American worker before going abroad. But if there is no worker -- and that's the case that we have found over the past few years -- the employer ought to have the ability to go abroad to fill the slot.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there tonight. T.J. Bonner, John Gay, thank you both for joining us.

GAY: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Two prison guards held hostage for six days. Now I will get the latest from a top prison official in Arizona.

A look ahead to Sunday's Golden Globe awards with nominee William H. Macy.


ZAHN: After six days, there are signs of frayed nerves in a prison standoff in Arizona. Two inmates are holding two guards hostage inside a guard tower, and the situation is delicate.

The negotiations described as critical by our next guest. Ivan Bartos is the warden of the state complex in Yuma. He is assisting in the standoff at the prison in Arizona. Welcome, sir, we appreciate your time tonight.


ZAHN: Mr. Bartos, what's going on inside that tower?

BARTOS: Well, the situation is serious. We have two of our correctional officers being held by two inmates. We have had ongoing negotiations and there are many, many staff from throughout the state and other law enforcement agencies working diligently in an effort to resolve this situation peacefully.

ZAHN: Are you allowed to tell us how you would characterize the progress of the negotiations tonight?

BARTOS: Well, I think that, although we've been at this now for six days, time is on our side, and certainly we have some of the best and brightest negotiators available in the state of Arizona. They've had six days, though, to use their techniques, and we are seeing ever increasing signs of their effectiveness. These inmates are beginning to do things that we want them to do, and so for that reason, we have reason to be optimistic.

ZAHN: I understand one of the inmates was actually visible in the watch tower this morning. What was he doing? BARTOS: I'm not sure exactly. He was walking around -- I mean, why he was doing it, I'm not sure. He was walking around on top of the watchtower and appeared to throw a fish line, we call it, down and hooked and pulled a couple of water coolers, which are normally kept down at the base of the tower, up to the top.

ZAHN: Any new demands from the inmates?

BARTOS: Currently, we are negotiating another visual wellness check of our correctional officers, and I know that the inmates want to be fed, and that's what's on the table right now. I'm sure there are other things on the table, but negotiators are careful with what we share.

We have to assume that the hostage takers have access to broadcasts concerning this event and we don't ever want to say or do anything that might jeopardize those negotiations, they're critical.

ZAHN: Absolutely. We understand why you don't want us to participate in compromising that.

I think this one is safe for you to answer, you talked about this wellness check being negotiated at the moment for the correctional officers. How concerned are you that your team hasn't seen them in over 24 hours? You've had, I guess, two good looks at them before that.

BARTOS: Right. Well, certainly, there is a lot of dialogue ongoing between the negotiators and the hostage takers. And, obviously, I don't have access to, you know, as it happens kind of dialogue. So as I understand, negotiations are going well.

ZAHN: Well, we wish you luck. We appreciate you joining us. We do hope this is resolved safely and soon for your whole team.

BARTOS: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: We're going to shift gears, look ahead to some weekend fun with Golden Globe nominee William H. Macy. You know his face.



WILLIAM H. MACY, ACTOR: Ladies and gentlemen, I am staring at a swarm of humanity. A scene of hungry faces demanding the match of a lifetime. They have come here tonight in the cold, in the wind, in the chill of a late October night.

Let me just make my way over to one of them so you can hear it for yourself. Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Excuse me. Ma'am, ma'am, if I may. What brings you out here tonight with your three small children clamoring for a view of this little horse?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we want to see a match race.


ZAHN: For years, William H. Macy has been one of the most sought-after and respected actors in Hollywood. He is praised by critics and movie-goers alike for his versatility in many memorable performances, including "Fargo" and "Boogy Nights." Well, Sunday, he has a chance to walk away with a Golden Globe for best supporting actor for his role in "Seabiscuit". And I asked him today, just how seriously he takes these awards.


MACY: It's a dangerous part of our business. I mean, on the one hand, one must remember that it's a marketing tool. But on the other hand, when you get nominated, you can take that to the bank. You probably did a good job. So I take it somewhat seriously, but I try not to let my heart get involved so it doesn't get crushed.

ZAHN: Tell me a little bit about, when you consider a part, how much you evaluate whether it is an award-worthy part? Is that something that you even mix into the equation?

MACY: No, I don't think I've ever thought that. I -- with me, it's the script first. Is it a good story? Is it a story that rings true to me? And then other considerations are, is it a role that I want to do? Are they going to shoot it in my hometown, or do I have to travel? Do they have any money? Who's directing?

ZAHN: Well, this role in "Seabiscuit" was an unusual one for you. You've done such a broad range of work. Was it fun?

MACY: It was a hoot. It was very quick. Gary Ross had been talking to me about this role for a long, long time. He called me up just cackling about these funny lines. And truthfully, when he'd read them over the phone, they didn't sound that funny to me, but I trust in him. I was talking just about as fast as I could and still make it intelligent.

ZAHN: Do you remember any of those lines? Because we sure would love for you to reprise them this evening. Or are they all out of your head by now?

MACY: They go out of my head minutes after I do. You know, there's an old Fireside Theater line that I always thought, "the biggest longshot Louie in Hialeah wouldn't put a fin on my fate now." That's...

ZAHN: That's a taste of what you did in this movie. Final thought about "Seabiscuit." It came out at a time when a bunch of other movies were hitting theaters. Do you think it's found its mark yet?

MACY: Yes. A lot of people have seen the film. The DVD sales are astronomical, I guess. It's breaking records. It's a great story. For some reason, it's really easy for us to love animals, even more than people, and he was such a magnificent creature. And it spoke to America. This was a horse who had a weight problem. He was short. He had a bad attitude. He was almost narcoleptic. Most of these race horses were so high strung, they couldn't get them in a gate. They couldn't get them in a railway car. And Seabiscuit would lie down and sleep for hours on end. They had to set an alarm clock to get him to the races.

ZAHN: I have to tell you, at the close of the movie, in the theater I watched, I've never seen the response I've seen before, where people spontaneously stood up and clapped for three to four minutes without stopping. So there you have it. That's your Golden Globe audience right there.

MACY: All right, good.

ZAHN: Good luck to you Sunday night. We'll be watching for you.

MACY: Thank you, Paula. I'll plan a speech just in case.

ZAHN: Good, that's probably a good thing to have in mind. Again, thanks for joining us tonight.

MACY: Thank you.


ZAHN: Who will win at the Golden Globes is only part of the guessing game. From the goody bags to the dresses to whether Jennifer Lopez shows up with a new man in her life, there is much to consider. Helping us sort it all out is "Access Hollywood's" co-host Pat O'Brien. He joins us from Burbank. Always good to have you with us.

PAT O'BRIEN, ACCESS HOLLYWOOD: As it turns out, I'm the new man in her life. I'm just joking about that.

ZAHN: Are you sure about that, Pat?

O'BRIEN: That one I'm sure about.

ZAHN: And you won't be walking the red carpet with her Sunday night?

O'BRIEN: No. But as a matter of fact, she will be a presenter at the Golden Globes on Sunday. And she will not be do the red carpet, for obvious reasons. I mean, she would be the "it" person on the red carpet. It would explode the paparazzi and all of us chasing her.

ZAHN: So what's wrong with that?

O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, I think she's had enough of that. I think that's one of the reasons this relationship, you know, fell apart in the first place is that both of them are such big stars, neither one could go anywhere on their own, let alone together.

ZAHN: So what's the big buzz out there about who the potential winners might be? O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, first of all, the Golden Globes is great, because it's a party. I mean, the Oscars are great, the Emmys are great, the Grammys are great, the Tonys are great. But this one is a party, it's a dinner. They have wine and dinner, and that's why the speeches are always kind of a little different, a little racier than other award shows.

But big buzz this year I think is "Lord of the Rings." After three of them, I think that will be the movie of the year. Finally will get the nod and I think Peter Jackson has a great shot at getting director. Certainly, Diane Keaton should get the nod, the Golden Globe for her performance along with Jack Nicholson in that movie. And Sean Penn should be the favorite for "Mystic River."

In television, the story was that "Friends" wasn't -- Matt LeBlanc was the only "Friend" who was nominated. And "Friends" itself was not nominated. It's the last season.

Then there's all those HBO shows, "Sex and the City," all those girls are nominated, and "Six Feet Under" and that. So it's a hodge- podge -- not a very nice word for Hollywood, is it? But it includes everybody, television and movies, and that's what makes it fun.

ZAHN: So tell us a little bit about the experience of being there. First of all, there's always so much speculation about what the presenters are going to get in their goody bag. Are they going to make out like bandits this year?

O'BRIEN: It's become -- these award shows have become all about the goody bags. You know, it used to be they'd give you, you know, a bag with some perfume and maybe some golf tees for the guys. Now they're 15, 20, $30,000 bags. And so to get your hands on one of these bags, if you're a presenter or nominated, is like a big deal in Hollywood. Even though you make millions of dollars, it's all about getting the swag and the free stuff.

So the goody bag will be a big story at the Golden Globes. And it's -- I've seen them. They're just full of everything, from lasik surgery certificates, to a year's certificate in a gym, to trips to Africa. I mean, it's incredible.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about what the wins on Sunday night might tell us about how the Oscar race will shape up.

O'BRIEN: The Golden Globes is the first major awards show. I mean, they have the director's awards, DGA, and these other award shows leading up to it, but this is the first biggy, really. So it's a weathervane for the next awards shows.

ZAHN: And I know how much you like to take in the glorious gowns that are worn at these big awards shows. Any fashion tips you want to give us for Sunday night?

O'BRIEN: My gown is not completed yet. And I'm thinking about wearing red this year. But it's all about the gowns, too. I mean, the gowns are still being made. People love showing off their designers. And, you know, when you get those "Sex and the City" girls like Sarah Jessica Parker, you know she loves her shoes, so it's always fun to look at the accessories.

And no one ever pays any attention to the men. So we have Billy Bush on the red carpet and we're going to look at what the men wear. Usually, we all just wear boring black and...

ZAHN: All right, well, we're going to check it all out. And I think you should go lavender, ditch the red, Pat.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, I've got something lavender.

ZAHN: Well, good, well, I'll be looking for it. Thanks so much for giving us a preview of what Sunday night might look like.

O'BRIEN: Thank you. We'll see you.

ZAHN: Have a good weekend.

O'BRIEN: Good night, Paula.

ZAHN: Coming up next, the loss of someone who was a friend to millions of children. Stay with us.


ZAHN: Finally tonight, a pioneer of children's television has died after a long illness. Bob Keeshan, TV's Captain Kangaroo, had millions of kids singing "Good morning Captain" for decades. The show, with characters like Mr. Moose and Mr. Green Jeans ran for more than 30 years and won six Emmys. Keeshan was 76 years old.

We want to thank you all for being with us tonight. On Monday, as New Hampshire voters prepare for Tuesday's primary, we'll take you behind the scenes in one candidate's campaign war room.

Again, thanks for joining us tonight. We will be back, same time, same place Monday night. Have a good weekend. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.


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