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PAULA ZAHN NOW
America's Unsung Heroes; United States Looks to Hasten Transfer of Power in Iraq
Aired November 12, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: As U.S. forces launch an attack in Baghdad, the White House wraps up two days of urgent talks on how to speed up the transfer of power. But is there anyone in Iraq ready to govern the country?
They don't have book or movie deals, barely a word in the papers, but they played key roles in the war in Iraq. Tonight, we'll meet one of America's unsung heroes.
And Hollywood's next big scandal. Has someone been bugging the stars' phones? We're going to meet the reporter who says her phone was tapped while she covered the Michael Jackson sex case.
Good evening. Welcome. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Also ahead: the verdict in the Rosie O'Donnell case. Nobody wins. Nobody loses. Our Jeffrey Toobin will explain how and why that happened.
And the turmoil in the John Kerry campaign. Can his run for the White House survive the loss of three top campaign officials in one week? We're going to ask Joe Klein and Torie Clarke.
Plus, four American track and field athletes test positive for steroids, as Major League Baseball prepares to announce results of its steroid testing. We're going to ask top athletes why some resort to drugs to improve their performance.
Also, some new research on men, women and heart attacks and who suffers more. The answer might surprise you.
First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
The U.S. launched some joint attacks on Iraqi insurgents inside Baghdad today. Explosions could be heard throughout the city. Earlier, a suicide bombing in Nasiriyah today killed at least 26 people.
For the very latest, I'm joined now by Matthew Chance in Baghdad.
Good evening, Matthew.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, Italian coalition forces were the target of this latest suspected suicide attack that 16 of the military personnel killed in the southern town of Nasiriyah, two Italian civilians, as well as eight Iraqis, this one of the deadliest attacks against coalition forces since President Bush declared an end to combat operations in May.
Eyewitnesses spoke of a truck laden with explosives ramming the gates of that Italian military base in Nasiriyah. Well, tonight, we saw what we believe is the U.S. authorities showing that they're adopting a much tougher policy towards the Iraqi insurgents -- multiple explosions across the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, not Iraqi mortars this time, but U.S. firepower, two assaults on suspected militant positions, one a car driving through the west of the city attacked by a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship, the other, an AC-130 gunship, a very heavily armed aircraft, deployed to destroy a warehouse where U.S. officials say was used to plan and to carry out mortar attacks against coalition forces, a very heavy attack here by U.S. forces, part of an ongoing operation, which we've been told we should expect to see more of this kind of operation in the days and the weeks ahead -- Paula.
ZAHN: Ambassador Bremer on his way back to Iraq after being called to Washington for some urgent meetings. What kind of changes are expected on the ground as a result of these meetings?
CHANCE: Well, Paul Bremer says he's going to be returning from Washington to Iraq delivering a message from President Bush, reinstating President Bush's commitment to handing over power to Iraqis. That certainly going to be one of his main challenges, how to get up and running more speed in delivering a constitution for this country, a government, a leader, of course, and a timetable for elections.
The other big pressing matter, of course, the deteriorating security situation underlined by this attack against the Italians in Nasiriyah. How he's going to do it, we'll just have to wait and see.
ZAHN: Yes, that's what we're all waiting to assess here.
Matthew Chance, thanks so much.
Today's operation came just as the White House finished two days of urgent talks on how to speed up the transfer of power Iraq. The Bush administration may be growing impatient with Iraq's governing council. Is it working?
To discuss that, I'm joined from Washington by Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute. Joining us here in New York, Middle East analyst and Sarah Lawrence College Professor Fawaz Gerges.
Welcome to you both.
Danielle, do you think the governing council has enough legitimacy to get the job done?
DANIELLE PLETKA, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Paula, I can't hear a word you're saying.
(LAUGHTER) ZAHN: Well, then you better not fake it.
But Fawaz can here what I'm saying.
FAWAZ GERGES, MIDEAST ANALYST: Absolutely.
ZAHN: There's a lot of people that think the council is so inept that they have no business governing Iraq. Do you agree?
GERGES: Paula, the council was born with some structural problems and contradictions.
First, it was hand picked by Paul Bremer, who had no intention to invest the council with any real authority. Paul Bremer wanted to keep all the shots in his own hands. Secondly, the council members were selected based on their sectarian and ethnic affiliations, not on their nationalist or representative affiliations. And the Sunni community felt it was come not represented in the council. So what has happened is that council members...
ZAHN: So you say, on both points, it was flawed from the beginning?
And what has happened is that council members have sacrificed Iraqi national interest at the altar of their own provincial interests. And this is why many Iraqis do not take the council very seriously, because, first, they believe, after all, it is Paul Bremer who calls the shot. And even council members themselves have publicly complained that they have no real authority.
ZAHN: Danielle, I know you couldn't hear a word of what Fawaz just had to say. But, basically -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- he said this governing council is a joke. From day one, it was a joke.
ZAHN: Did I get that right?
GERGES: No, I think you're right.
PLETKA: OK, well, thanks for the brief summary.
I think that's a terrible injustice to the governing council. They're handicapped by an agreement with the coalition that grants them absolutely no power. People without responsibility can't exercise responsibility. There's no question that the makeup of the council is faulty and that it could have been better done. But that said, these are the guys that we have worked with. They are the guys who have accepted by the Arab League, by the U.N.
And it's up to us to try to make them look good. We've done exactly the reverse. We've tried nonstop to make them look bad.
ZAHN: Fawaz, jump in here.
GERGES: I think it's not really whether somehow how we created the council.
Iraqis do not take the council very seriously because, in the eyes of the Iraqis, it lacks legitimacy. Look at their record. The council has not been able even to at least agree on a president to preside over the council. What does it have? They have a rotating presidency. It's like an academic department in a university.
ZAHN: Let Danielle react to that.
PLETKA: Again, I agree with you it would have been better.
On the other hand, we don't have rule of law. We don't have a democratic system. We don't have primaries in Iraq, by which people could have actually sent their own candidates to a council. The way it works in a transitional situation is that you pick people and you put your full faith and credibility in them. You attempt to help them.
PLETKA: Just is sec. Let me finish.
You attempt to help them look good in the face of the Iraqi people. And we have done none of it. Now, could they be better? Absolutely. They could be better. But, on the other hand, it is we who are most vested in this. And we need to work harder.
GERGES: That's the point I've tried to make, is that, from day one, from the outset, Paul Bremer did not have any intention to invest the council with any authority.
Plus, the selection of the council members, based on ethnic and sectarian affiliations, has done a great deal of damage to the legitimacy of the council in the eyes of Iraqis. And here, I want to come back and argue, it's not just the council's ability to agree on a president. Look at the selection of the Cabinet. They bickered, bickered, and fought over basically -- they divided the spoils among themselves, among their own allies and families.
Again, we come back to the question of a constitution. I mean, the council has not been able to agree on a committee that will ultimately rewrite the constitution, because of course, the Shiites, who represent 66 percent of the population, would like the committee to be elected, because it's in their interests, while the Sunnis and the Kurds...
ZAHN: Right. GERGES: The big question is the following at this particular point. How do you replace American military occupation with an elected, legitimate, elected -- I stress, elected, legitimate authority, because any authority that is not perceived to be legitimate by Iraqis will not succeed.
ZAHN: Well, that's a key question, obviously, the administration is analyzing tonight.
Danielle, thank you for joining us tonight.
Fawaz, thank you for your time as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: I'll be taking them a message from the president that he remains steadfast in his determination to defeat terrorism in Iraq and steadfast in his determination to give the Iraqis authority over their country, authority they're already beginning to assume very quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So just how quickly is Iraq's governing council moving?
U.S. administrator to Iraq Paul Bremer heading back to Baghdad with new marching orders from the White House that could signal a change, of course, for the United States.
To talk more about that, we're joined by our regular contributors, former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke from San Francisco; here in the studio with me tonight, "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein.
Welcome back, both of you.
Joe, what is the big land mine ahead here for the administration here, as they try to speed up this transfer of power?
JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the problem is this.
We're trying to start a new government in a country that may not even be a country, but three different tribal groups in the middle of a war. And the key word is war. Our general on the ground there yesterday used it for the first time since last April. We're in the middle of a war. And it's very hard to establish any kind of civil society when you have total chaos on the ground in many key parts of the country.
ZAHN: Torie, what kind of role do politics play in the announcement of Paul Bremer heading back to Iraq with new marching orders from the president?
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I doubt any. And I certainly hope politics doesn't play any role in this. The real time pressure -- I agree with Joe -- the real time pressure is what is going on internally in Iraq. You want to move quickly for the obvious reasons. But if you move too quickly and the government that you are trying to help them start doesn't have legitimacy in the eyes of the Iraqi people, then it will fail and you have a huge power vacuum.
And one thing does play off of the other. The security situation right there right now is bad. And that has an impact and makes it hard to set up this government. But you have to, despite all the recent attacks, especially in the face of these recent attacks, you have to try to demonstrate progress, and faster progress, on setting up some form of representative government.
ZAHN: Torie, but if you had been sitting across here Joe Klein here, you would have seen him roll his eyes when you said this is free of politics.
KLEIN: Well, there's politics involved in everything.
But let me make a crucial historical point here. The last two empires that tried to rule this patch of turf, the Ottoman Turks and the British, when they took a look at who was there, they gave power to the Sunnis in the middle of the country, who represent a minority. For whatever reason, they were more warlike than the others. We, because we're democrats, want to have the Shiites who represent 60 percent of the population there, run the country. And there is absolutely no evidence, historical or practical or otherwise, that the Sunnis are going to agree to that.
ZAHN: Torie, is the U.S. government guilty of underestimating the legitimacy or the potential power down the road of the Sunnis and what kind of partnership they could play with the United States?
CLARKE: No, I don't think underestimating at all.
I think it's just -- it's hugely difficult. Think how hard it is for three people to agree what movie they want to go see, much less those divergent peoples in that countries trying to decide what form of government they want. I will sort of agree with Joe's eye-rolling about politics, in this sense. I do not believe, and certainly hope, that nobody in this administration is making decisions about Iraq right now with an eye towards the '04 elections.
Having said that, I do think national security in Iraq will play a big role in how people decide who they're going to vote for next year. But good policy is usually good politics. So I think that's the right course to follow.
ZAHN: Torie Clarke, Joe Klein, thanks for joining us tonight.
CLARKE: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK) ZAHN: The No. 2 man in the State Department, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, will join us tomorrow to talk about Iraq and the Middle East, and much more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER/SONGWRITER: I'm doing well and I am strong. As you may already know, after my tour...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And tonight, stars, telephones and wiretaps. We're going to find out what that may have to do with Michael Jackson and the sex allegations he fought off for years.
And the tie game in Rosie O'Donnell's legal battle with her former magazine publisher -- or was it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSIE O'DONNELL, COMEDIAN: I have no vengeance towards the company. I will never speak about that company again or any of its employees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: This case is not who won or lost, but simply how many times peace was offered and war was chosen by the other side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Well, the trial may be over, but the tribulations continue for Rosie O'Donnell. She is still taking some shots at her publisher after a judge in their dueling lawsuits ruled, neither side is entitled to anything, but maybe the cost of some legal bills down the road.
For his take on the Rosie decision, as well as the latest on the D.C. area sniper trial, and the Scott Peterson -- the list goes on and goes on tonight -- we're joined by our regular contributor, legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.
I want to replay for our audience something that Rosie told me just about a year before this trial got under way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Threatened to withhold cooperation, cancel certain issues, or shut the magazine down if G&J did not accede to your demands.
O'DONNELL: Well, you know, this will be the greatest Court TV extravaganza since the O.J. trial, then. Let's just hope we can get to trial, because nothing would make me happier than not only to be -- to give -- testify, but to be cross-examined by whoever their best guy is. Bring it on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: They brought it on. What happened?
TOOBIN: This trial didn't need a judge. It needed a psychiatrist. This never belonged in court.
The legal system exists by certain rules. And you have a breach of contract case, and the rule is, you get the -- the damages are the profits you would have made if the contracts had been honored.
TOOBIN: There were no profits. It was obvious there were no profits from this
ZAHN: No profits? Wasn't it publicly proclaimed that the books were cooked?
TOOBIN: The book were cooked about how much of the loss there was, but there was never an issue about whether there were profits, because this was a failed magazine. It did not work.
So, the judge, quite appropriately, at the end of the day, said, go home, both of you, because there are no damages to be given here. Neither side showed that there were any profits to be gotten. Go home. Take your silly lawsuit and stop clogging up the courts with it.
ZAHN: And you agree with that assessment?
ZAHN: Just a completely frivolous lawsuit.
TOOBIN: But it did mean that both sides were losers.
Gruner & Jahr was portrayed as people who cooked the books, who were dishonest in the way they kept their records. Rosie O'Donnell was portrayed as eccentric, at best, malevolent towards her employees, disappearing at key times when this magazine was supposed to be run. All they did was damage their own reputations.
ZAHN: Let's turn to the sniper trial. The defense rested in the John Allen Muhammad case after only three hours and five witnesses. TOOBIN: The prosecution, 116 witnesses, defense, five witnesses. Now, obviously, it matters what your witnesses say, but I think that imbalance tells you something about this case.
ZAHN: What does it tell us?
TOOBIN: It tells us it was an overwhelming case against John Muhammad. They really didn't have much of a case in saying that Muhammad wasn't involved in this shooting.
Basically, they seem to be putting all their eggs in the basket of trying to spare him the death penalty. But the guilt phase, it seems -- I'm not accusing the lawyers of anything, but they almost seem like they're throwing in the towel.
ZAHN: Very quickly here, opening statements get under way in the second sniper trial. We've heard the defense attorney for Lee Malvo basically set up, saying that this is a nightmare scenario of a kid being completely manipulated by an adult.
TOOBIN: Muhammad has almost no defense.
Malvo has a real defense. Malvo, the kid, is much more sympathetic. He is someone the jury, while they will probably not have much a tough time in the guilt phase, in the penalty phase, the argument that he was manipulated by a man two, three decades his elder, that's a really good argument. And he'll be able to work with that.
ZAHN: Do you buy that, as a former prosecutor?
TOOBIN: Well, yes. I think that is a much more plausible argument to present to the jury than anything Muhammad could say.
ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.
And a dramatic arrest on the water, as the FBI says it has foiled a plot to bomb women's clinics. We're going to have more on the case. Investigators say the suspect came perilously close to carrying out his plans.
Also, four U.S. athletes test positive for steroid use. We're going to look at the powerful draw steroids pose for the athlete striving to excel.
ZAHN: We learned this week that four U.S. track and field athletes tested have positive for steroid use. And any day now, Major League Baseball will release some results of its latest rounds of test.
Well, tonight, Josie Burke looks at what drives some athletes to turn to drugs to enhance their performances. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Godina's path is clearly marked in a trail of sweat and meticulous records.
JOHN GODINA, OLYMPIC MEDALIST: I'm just -- I'm kind of anal retentive on organization and stuff.
BURKE: Long hours of training have taken Godina to four world shot put titles and two Olympic medals, a long way, but sometimes not far enough.
GODINA: As I started realizing how many medals you can possibly lose in a career and how much money you can lose in a career to people who are cheating, then I started getting bitter about it.
BURKE: The use of performance-enhancing drugs is everywhere in sports. With the discovery last month of a designer steroid called THG, those looking to clean up recorded a rare victory.
GODINA: I'd be excited if it happened four or five more times in the next year. That would be great. Just clean everything up. It would be awesome.
MICHAEL JOHNSON, WORLD RECORD SPRINTER: It's always bad for the sport when there are allegations of these kinds of things. But when people are found out about and when something like this is uncovered, which is huge, then that is good for the sport.
ALISON DUNLAP, OLYMPIC MOUNTAIN BIKER: I was like, woohoo, we're catching them, because, most of the time, the news is not good. It's just -- it's depressing. It's demoralizing.
BURKE: And nothing has stopped the cycle yet.
JOHNSON: You can't expect that any kind of situation like this is going to end crime in sports, basically, or performance-enhancing drugs in sports. That's never going to end.
BURKE: Godina and Olympic mountain biker Alison Dunlap both say they've never been tempted to cheat. But they recognize why others are.
GODINA: If they were as good as No. 1 or No. 2 in the world, then it's not worth the risk. But it is worth the risk if you know, deep in your heart, you're No. 8 and you could be No. 1 in the world.
CHARLES YESALIS, PENN STATE UNIVERSITY: My personal belief is, the large percent of Olympic and world records in the last 30 years that have been set in the last 30 years have been drug-assisted. Now, I can't prove that scientifically. But I have been working in this area of doping for 24 years. And that's my belief.
DUNLAP: You're talking multi, multi-million dollar contracts out there. And there's so much at stake now that there's a lot of reason to try and dope and cheat. BURKE: And lots of different ways to do it. Authorities found THG, but no one knows how many other secret performance enhancers may be out there.
TIM LAYDEN, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": For every designer steroid that's found, there are probably 10 others that are either being used or in production in a laboratory somewhere.
YESALIS: The notion that that's the only designer drug out there, to believe that, I would, at very best, be naive and very likely be negligent.
BURKE (on camera): In the wake of the THG discovery, sports leagues from football to rugby have added the substance to their banned lists. The testers won this time. But the cheaters are already hard at work trying to regain the advantage.
Josie Burke, CNN, Los Angeles.
ZAHN: And a husband, a wife, a murder, a widow and a remarriage, and many suspicions. A wealthy financier was killed. His wife remarried to a man who is now the target of a grand jury investigation.
Danny Pelosi sat down with me. Here's part of what he had to say.
DANNY PELOSI, TARGET OF GRAND JURY INVESTIGATION: I got involved in a relationship with a woman who turned out to be wonderful and then turned out to be horrible.
ZAHN: But there was a murder somewhere in the middle.
PELOSI: Yes. There was a murder. There was a divorce. There was a murder. There was just chaos, chaos. And I've been ruined. I've been ruined by all of this. I can't even go out to dinner.
ZAHN: Why? What happens?
PELOSI: Without people pointing and saying, oh, there's that guy who killed Ted Ammon.
ZAHN: Why do so many people think you look guilty?
PELOSI: Come on. It's a perfect movie. "Colombo" has a scene on this. Look -- from the outside look in. I mean, I look in.
ZAHN: You have to admit, it looks pretty bad, doesn't it?
PELOSI: It looks bad. Here's the blue-collar -- here's the regular guy out on Long Island, hooks up with a rich woman who is getting a divorce. The husband dies. I ain't the only guy out there that's ever hooked up with a rich woman. There's 10,000 guys out there in this world that have hooked up with rich woman, where their husbands don't die.
ZAHN: And Danny Pelosi now finds himself the target of a grand jury investigation. He's now challenging his late wife's will. More on that in the complete interview with Danny Pelosi right here tomorrow night.
Men, women and heart attacks, who suffers more? We're going to ask Dr. Nancy Snyderman tonight about a new study.
Also, a dramatic arrest at sea, as the FBI says it foiled a plot to bomb women's clinics that perform abortions. We're going to have a live report from Miami Beach.
And tomorrow, as the U.S. battles for international help in Iraq, we'll have an exclusive interview with French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin.
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Here's some of the headlines you need to know right now. Iraqi insurgents took their fight to coalition forces bombing the Italian police headquarters in Nasiriya. Eighteen Italians, 8 Iraqis died in the attack. Now coalition officials they are going on the offensive. U.S. Forces have launched operation Iron Hammer, which included a strike on a warehouse in Baghdad. It was thought the warehouse was used by insurgents to launch more attacks on coalition forces.
In Washington tonight, they expect the Senate to pull an all- nighter and more. A 30-hour session a result of Republicans battling Democrats who had been blocking the president's picks to be federal judges. Will there be fireworks?
Let's turn to Congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl, who is on duty tonight on Capitol Hill. Have fun tonight -- Karl.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, I don't know about fireworks, but they say it may go more than 30 hours. It is going on right now, it's in its third hour. So, if you look at the live picture on the Senate floor, you will see the debate beginning another 27 hours or more to go. Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana a Democrat now talking. This is expected to go until Friday early in the morning. So, they've been bringing in the cots and the Republicans allowed us to film as they brought the cots in because Democrats and Republicans, as they are talking for 30 some hours may, of course need to take a nap at some point. So, there you have your senatorial cots. The whole point for Republicans is they are protesting the way Democrats have treated have treated the president judicial nominees. Specifically, four Circuit Court nominees that have been blocked for even coming up for a vote by Democrats. Democrats are calling this a colossal waste of time, though Paula. They say they have confirmed 168 nominees. That's not bad with just four that have been blocked. That's what the Democrats are saying.
ZAHN: So, Jonathan, were you supplied with a cot for tonight or are you standing all night long?
KARL: Those are senatorial cots, Paula, those are not for reporters. So, we'll be standing.
ZAHN: All right. Jonathan Karl, thanks for the update. Appreciate it.
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) authorities have arrested a man they say was in the final stages of planning a series of bombings at women's clinics, just north of Miami, Dade County.
National correspondent Susan Candiotti reports.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The arrest was dramatic and wet. At a marina in Miami Beach, the FBI, the Coast Guard and ATF chased the expected bombers as he swimmed under docks and under the waters of the Biscayne Bay. He kept authorities at bay for nearly an hour.
RICK MANNING, WITNESS: As he was approaching over there the cops were down on the deck, as soon as he got close they grabbed him by the shirt and they got a boat hook and they were hooking like this. They dragged him right up in the boat like a tarpon.
CANDIOTTI: He is identified as Stephen John Jordi, suspected of planning to bomb churches, abortion clinics and kill doctors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for the life of integrity.
CANDIOTTI: Described by the FBI as an avid fan of abortion doctor killing Paul Hill, here's Jordi at a rally protesting Hill's execution in Florida, September 3rd. His arms are covered by religious themed tattoos. This one with a red cross labeled "repent." Federal prosecutors say Jordi was also devotee of accused of abortion clinic bomber Eric Rudolph and was on the verge of following in his footsteps.
FRANK FIGLLUZZI, FBI ASST. SPECIAL AGENT: He was assembling explosive materials. He was clearly not pleased that his plan to be just like Eric Rudolph and Paul Hill was interrupted.
CANDIOTTI: The FBI says it recorded Jordi telling an informant, "I don't have the means to kill abortion doctors, but I do have the means to bomb clinics. Maybe that way I can dissuade other doctors from performing abortions."
CANDIOTTI: The tip that led to Jordi's arrest at this marina last night came from a call to the FBI last August. The FBI says Jordi was also targeting homosexual at churches he felt weren't doing enough to prevent abortions. And finally, Paula, apparently Paul Hill and Jordi were exchanging letters at one point. Paul Hill sending Jordi a letter thanking him for his moral and financial support. Back to you.
ZAHN: Susan Candiotti, appreciate the late update.
We are going to stay with the story now. I'm joined now by two guests Marcos Daniel Jimenez the U.S. attorney for the southern district of Florida and Frank Figiluzzi is the assistant special agent in charge of terrorism for the FBI in Miami.
Frank, I'll get started with you this evening.
What else do we know about Steven Jordi and what he was up to?
FIGILUZZI: We know he was emulating Eric Rudolph and Paul Hill and that he was corresponding with Paul Hill. We know that he was in the final stages of planning his attacks and that we felt the attacks were imminent, which caused us to move in.
ZAHN: And how would the attacks have taken place?
What would they have involved?
FIGILUZZI: Well, as stated in the affidavit today, we believe he was assembling the various parts of his explosive devices. He had talked about various explosive devices and varying his attacks on multiple clinics to try to throw off law enforcement.
ZAHN: Frank I want to read more from the affidavit now, it says, "if I do this," and this is Jordi talking to an informant. "My wife knows I can never come home. I'll be a fugitive on the run. She doesn't like it, but she understands. If I start blowing up clinics, I'll be a hunted man."
So, was his family involved in the planning of this?
FIGILUZZI: Something we're still looking into and something not appropriate for comment. But we're still looking at the entire universe of people that may have assisted or helped him.
ZAHN: You have looked at his residence right?
FIGILUZZI: We have executed a search warrant yesterday at his residence and we're still looking at the results of that warrant.
ZAHN: Are you able to tell us whether that search yielded anything compelling?
FIGILUZZI: Not yet. But I can tell you that we did seize a computer and it will take some time to go through that hard drive.
FIGILUZZI: And is there anything else you learned about the timing of a potential attack here? ZAHN: Are we talking about a an attack hours away, days away, when?
FIGILUZZI: We felt it was very imminent. Imminent enough for us to basically end the operation and take him down.
ZAHN: How did you guys get tipped off to him?
FIGLLUZZI: Well, as stated in the affidavit, a person who was very concerned about Mr. Jordi's actions and behaviors approached us. We quickly confirmed that person's information with a second person and that allowed us to introduce a cooperating individual, a third person into the scenario allowing us to monitor Mr. Jordi's plans and activities.
ZAHN: Marcos is there any chance Steven may not have carried through with actually bombing abortion clinics?
MARCOS DANIEL JIMENEZ, U.S. ATTORNEY, FLORIDA: Well, it would be speculative and anything is possible, but the important point here is that after 9/11, it is the mission of the Department of Justice and our office, the U.S. attorney's office here in south Florida to prevent acts of violence and prevent acts of terrorism. We saw firsthand that prosecuting people is not enough but what we need after the fact. What we need to do is stop acts of violence from occurring before they do.
And I want to congratulate the FBI and the folks in our office because, as a complaint makes very clear, we took a very dangerous person off the street who was imminently planning attacks on abortion clinics, on doctors, on what he termed "apostate churches" and what he termed as "fag bars." This person was intent on doing these things and also was acquiring material, bomb-making materials, a silencer that he paid for yesterday in cash. This is a person who is now not able to do that and our community and our country is safer because of it.
ZAHN: Well, we appreciate both of you putting that into perspective for us. Marcos Daniel Jimenez and Frank Frigiluzzi, thank you for being with us tonight.
JIMENEZ: Thank you.
FIGILUZZI: Thank you.
ZAHN: And some new research on heart disease and how it impacts men and women differently. We're going to ask Dr. Nancy Snyderman to put it in plain English for us tonight.
And we are going to meet one of the unsung heroes from the Iraq war and look at what his stories say about the changing face of heroes in America.
ZAHN: Now, men, women and heart disease. According to the American Heart Association, in 2000 cardiovascular disease killed more than 440,000 men and even more women than that, 505,000 women. If you do the math, that's 65,000 more women. I think we got that right. And a study out this week highlights that difference.
To put it all into plain English tonight, we turn to Nancy Snyderman, who is in California tonight. The Johnson & Johnson vice president has 18 years of experience as a medical journalist. Welcome back, doctor.
NANCY SNYDERMAN, VP JOHNSON & JOHNSON: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: So, help us understand the difference between the survival rate of men and women when it comes to heart attacks.
SNYDERMAN: For years we've known that women after the age of 65 have more heart disease. But this study out of British Columbia, that looked at 33,000 women over a long period of time said that women under the age of 65 have to really be cautious, because women have a worse prognosis under the age of 65.
It may be that women are presenting with more heart disease, because they just aren't paying attention to it. And maybe because doctors are really not differentiating between men and women and the differences to how we present with our heart disease.
ZAHN: Well, Nancy, we know men are from Mars and women are from Venus, but what else do we know?
SNYDERMAN: Our hearts are different, too.
ZAHN: Yes, our hearts are different. Tell us a little bit more about what the study reveals about these key differences.
SNYDERMAN: It's really interesting. If you look at how men present heart disease, a lot of time, most of the time they stereotypically have this crushing chest pains. It feels like having an elephant sit on a men's chest, pain in the left arm and sometimes pain in the jaw.
Women will sometimes say, you know, I just don't feel well. It feels like I'm breathing in icy air, sometimes the pain is in the jaw. A lot of times women are misdiagnosed as having gall bladder disease or even just being upset, sometimes having an ulcer.
So, it's pointing to the fact that there might be differences in how our hearts are constructed. The electrical systems may be different. We know women's blood vessels are smaller then men. And it looked beyond just the differences in the fact that women are older and it looked beyond socioeconomics.
The authors caution that they may not have all the answers, but what they really say to people, hey, there are huge differences between men and women, so doctors take note.
ZAHN: What are we supposed to do about it? SNYDERMAN: I think first of all, you have to look at your family history. If you're a women with no heart disease at all and you're not a smoker or overweight, you can probably buy some time, but if you're a women with heart disease on either side of your family tree, male or female, you should know that a resting EKG, the normal heart tracing that people get is not good enough for women.
Women, as a screening test, need a treadmill test where you really put on a treadmill you're hooked for up an EKG and the doctors look to see how well the heart works under stress.
So at the age of 50, at least sit down and have a conversation with your doctor. If you have a strong family history, you may need it before that. And there are all kinds of blood tests that a doctor can do too, but usually it's looking at your family history first.
ZAHN: The biggest lesson of all this for men tonight?
SNYDERMAN: I think the biggest lesson is for men and women. And usually, listen to that inner gut feeling in here. If you think something's wrong, even if you get a pat on your head from your doctor and your doctor says, everything looks okay. If your gut is, I don't believe it, something's wrong, keep pushing to have more tests.
We know that women who show up at the hospital only get one-third of the angiograms and a third of the stents. These things are really still geared towards men. So, men, if I have anything to say to you, take care of the women in your life and make sure they get the same kind of health care.
ZAHN: That is such good advice Nancy. You made so many friends with that tonight. Dr. Nancy Snyderman, always good to see you.
SNYDERMAN: Thank you.
ZAHN: Thousands of Americans have fought valiantly in Iraq, some have done remarkable things. Tonight, we're going to meet one of America's unsung heroes.
And we're going meet the TV reporter who says her phone was tapped while she covered the Michael Jackson sex case. Part of a growing wire-tapping scandal in Hollywood.
ZAHN: Hot new scandals hit Hollywood. A private eye is accused of tapping phone lines for some of the most powerful entertainment lawyers in Hollywood, including Michael Jackson's. National correspondent, Frank Buckley joins us live from Los Angeles with the latest on that. Good evening, Frank.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, Paula. The PI in question is Anthony Pellicano, he's one of Hollywood's best known private investigators. He recently pled guilty to illegal possession of explosives and hand grenades in his office safe. That discovery came as federal agents were looking into whether someone tried to intimidate a "Los Angeles Times" reporter into pulling back on a story about actor Steven Segal. The "LA Times" reporter found a note on her car that said "stop," there was also a dead fish and a rose on her windshield. Pellicano was not charged in that case, but when agents searched his office, they found the explosives.
Now, at least two attorneys who employed Pellicano tell us they've been contacted by federal authorities to be asked about alleged wiretapping. Burt Fields, who has represented stars like Tom Cruz and Kevin Costner, told us today in a statement that federal agents have told him that he's a subject of an investigation.
And Ed Masry who is the attorney who became famous in the Erin Brockovich case told us that he was also interviewed by FBI agents. Both men deny having any knowledge of any wiretapping by Pellicano.
We also talked today with Howard Weisman who first used Pellicano in his successful defense of John Delorean and who also employed Pellicano when he worked for entertainer Michael Jackson. Weitzman says he hasn't been contacted by federal agents. He also says he never authorized Pellicano to conduct wiretaps.
Meanwhile, Paula, federal authorities say they will not talk about what they describe as an ongoing investigation and Mr. Pellicano is not talking either. His attorney did not return our calls -- Paula.
ZAHN: He used less graceful language. They called this one big mess. Frank Buckley, thanks so much.
Court TV anchor Diane Dimond says she's one of the people who was bugged. Diamond broke the Michael Jackson sex scandal allegations a decade ago when she worked for "Hard Copy." And at the time Pellicano worked for Jackson's attorney.
I'm joined now by Diane Dimond. Good to see you.
DIANE DIMOND, COURT TV: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: When did you realize you were being bugged?
DIMOND: Well, pretty much right after I broke the Jackson story. That was in the fall of '93.
ZAHN: How did you know?
DIMOND: My office phone was crackling and popping and I thought that was kind of weird. But then I started telling people things on the phone that would come back to me through strange sources. So my husband and I devised a little red herring to talk about a supposed Anthony Pellicano special I was working on, and oh, it will be on in the next couple days, and not 20 minutes later I got a call from my legal department, saying are you working on an Anthony Pellicano special? Oh, we have to know about this. And I said, no, where did you hear about this? Well, it was from one of the attorney offices. So one of the attorneys that hired Anthony Pellicano.
ZAHN: So was that the first time you had proof or you thought, the evidence that Pellicano was involved?
DIMOND: Yes. And I would deliberately plant things that would come back to me, and so then I stopped using my phone at work.
ZAHN: So what was his motivation, if that is all true?
DIMOND: Well, money. He worked for Michael Jackson, who at the time, if you remember, was the subject of a terrible child abuse scandal. I was reporting on it every night. So were a lot of people. And they ultimately sued me for $100 million to shut me up. We won the lawsuit, but why does he do it? Because he's a tough guy, he's in the information brokering business, and how better to get hired over and over and over again than to give these attorneys what they want, inside information. It surprises to me -- well, I guess it doesn't surprise me when Bert Fields and Howard Weitzmann (ph) and all the rest of them say, we had no idea Anthony Pellicano did this. Well, all of Hollywood knew.
ZAHN: Does it make you laugh outloud?
DIMOND: Yes. It's like...
ZAHN: So were they lying?
DIMOND: ... the police captain in "Casablanca," I'm shocked that there's gambling here. You know, everybody knew. How come they didn't know? But we have to go with their word. Burt Fields vehemently denies that he knew it, but I think he's probably pretty worried right now.
ZAHN: What do they have to be worried about?
DIMOND: Well, there is a federal grand jury that was impaneled in Los Angeles County to look into this. They have talked to all sorts of people. Their names are dribbling and drabbling out, Warren Beatty, Gary Shandling. They've talked to me. I think that, in my case, I'm not one of these big, huge household names like, you know, Warren Beatty, but I bring to them the information that this has been going on a long, long time. Since 1993.
ZAHN: Yeah, you take it back a decade or so.
ZAHN: At what point did you involve the Los Angeles Police Department?
DIMOND: Well, way back then there was some vandalism to my home, my car was broken into on the lot, where our show is produced. Called the police then, filed a robbery report because all my Michael Jackson documents were stolen out of the back of my car.
But what can they do? I mean, they dusted my car for prints. You know, you take your car to a car wash and you can get prints all over it. So it never went anywhere. And I always thought, Paula, that people thought, oh, she's a nut. You know, she's overdramatizing. She just thinks she's being bugged. Well, guess what? Ten years later, I feel pretty vindicated.
ZAHN: But you feel at the time that this was motivated just to silence you, because you had broken the story about the sexual allegations against Michael Jackson?
DIMOND: Right. But more important, it was the threatening nature against my sources. I had a lot of people who were very close to Michael Jackson come to me, tell me their stories on tape and then call me later and say, oh, my gosh, I did -- I made a terrible mistake talking to you. Anthony Pellicano says this, this, this and this and they're threatening me and I'm scared to death. So that's my biggest regret, that I put these people in a terrible spot.
One woman was almost mowed off the road walking to a domestics job in Santa Barbara, California. An attorney who brought some security guards from Neverland to me was run off the road on his motorcycle and wound up in the hospital, almost died. So, they play with the big boys. This is "L.A. Confidential" brought to life, and it's been going on a long time there. And Anthony Pellicano had at least one police officer who was helping him gather information. That officer has been suspended.
ZAHN: It will be fascinating to see where all this goes. Diane Dimond, thanks.
DIMOND: Thanks for having me.
ZAHN: ... for coming by tonight. And as Jonathan Karl has just reported, the Senate is in the middle of a talkathon. They're rolling out the cots there tonight. This can go on for over 30 hours. We're going to get a history of political marathons straight ahead.
ZAHN: As we mentioned a little bit earlier tonight, cots have been rolled into the Capitol as the Senate gets ready to stay in session for 30 straight hours or more. It is all part of a battle between Republicans and Democrats over the president's choices to serve as federal judges. It is the first Senate talkathon in years, but there's a long history of them. Bruce Morton reports.
BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the beginning and for more than a century, the Senate had a tradition of unlimited debate. That changed in 1917, when, at President Woodrow Wilson's suggestion, they adopted what was called Rule 22, which said that a two-thirds majority could vote to end a debate. Invoking cloture that was called. They did that for the first time in 1919, cutting off debate on the Treaty of Versailles, which had ended World War I.
Famous filibusterers? Well, Huey Long, Louisiana King Fish was good at them. Mixing arguments about the Constitution with recipes for pot liquor, which is what you cook the greens in, and fried oysters.
First judicial filibuster? Republicans against then-President Lyndon Johnson's nomination of Abe Fortas to be chief justice of the Supreme Court. Cloture failed. Johnson withdrew the nomination.
Strom Thurmond holds the record for the longest individual filibuster, just over 24 hours, talking against the 1957 Civil Rights Act.
But the longest ever, that was against the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the law which ended legal segregation in the South. Fifty-seven working days. Six Saturdays. Senators were tough back then. Guys in their underwear, sleeping on cots in hallways.
(on camera): Those civil rights senators, those trying to break the filibuster, had to stick around in case the filibusterer suggested the absence of a quorum, a majority of senators. Without a quorum, the debate would have ended, everybody would have gone home. They'd have had to start all over again.
It ended finally with Everett Dirksen of Illinois, Republican, leader of the pro-civil rights forces, quoting the French author Victor Hugo, "Stronger than all the armies is an idea whose time has come." Nine days later the bill passed and changed America.
(voice-over): Those were real filibusters on big issues.
Lately, it's lost its punch, almost as exciting as an invitation to tea. Senator A announces he intends to filibuster. Nobody works late. If there's a vote, it's scheduled in the daytime. And nothing ever interferes with plans for the weekend.
This week's little exercise isn't very taxing either, 30 scheduled hours. Remember 1964, guys -- 57 working days.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
ZAHN: Doesn't look too comfortable, does it?
Thanks so much for being with us tonight. Tomorrow night, a number of exclusives here. We'll be talking with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Also, we'll have a conversation with French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin, and our candid interview with Danny Pelosi, the electrician who married the widow of a millionaire financier and now watches and waits as a grand jury investigation potentially focuses on him. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Good night.
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