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Gay Adultery; Al Qaeda Targeting Saudi Arabia?

Aired November 10, 2003 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: gay adultery. If a married person has a homosexual affair, is it adultery?
Is al Qaeda now targeting Mecca? We're live where thousands of Saudi troops are deployed to protect the holy city.

And a toddler found lifeless in a backyard pool is revived nearly an hour after doctors pronounced her dead. We'll meet the heroes who gave a child a second chance for life.

Good evening. Welcome. Thanks for starting the week off with us here.

Also ahead tonight, interviews, a TV movie, a book, and now the cover of "TIME" magazine. This week, we're getting a different picture of the story of Private Jessica Lynch, including the real extent of her wounds. We're going to hear from one of the three people who spent time with the Lynch family during her recovery.

And a president who is born-again, an attorney general who is a fundamentalist, and a top counselor a church elder. We'll have an inside look at religion and policy in the Bush White House.

Plus, the presidential race. Democrats focus on Iowa, where Dick Gephardt is in the lead, as John Kerry fires his campaign manager. We'll Joe Klein if it's make-or-break time for Kerry.

Also, the royal story everyone is talking about in Britain, the rumor about Prince Charles that the papers can't print. Will the prince go on TV to set the record straight?

First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

Iran says that it's suspended its uranium-enrichment program. The decision is spelled out in a letter to the International Atomic Energy Agency today. At the same time, according to Reuters, Iran admits producing a small amount of plutonium. The U.S. suspects Iran has been secretly trying to build nuclear weapons.

After 13 days of testimony and 100 witnesses, the prosecution rested in the trial of accused D.C. area sniper John Allen Muhammad. And in a courtroom just 15 miles away, jury selection began in the trial of Muhammad's alleged accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo.

The Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal on behalf of hundreds of prisoners of the war on terrorism. The court will decide whether those detained at the Guantanamo Naval Base can contest their captivity now in U.S. courts.

The New Hampshire Supreme Court is making headlines tonight for its definition of adultery. In a divorce case, it ruled that a married woman who has an affair with another woman did not commit adultery, because the court said there was no sexual intercourse. "In Focus" tonight: that controversial take on an age-old sin.

We begin with this report from Gary Tuchman.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The justices of the New Hampshire Supreme Court have issued a new ruling about an issue as old as the Ten Commandments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please be seated.

TUCHMAN: By a 3-2 margin, the justices say sex between two women cannot be considered adultery. In reviewing a divorce case, New Hampshire's highest court cited case law going back to the 1830s and a current dictionary that defines adultery as sexual intercourse between a man and woman.

(on camera): The dictionary the New Hampshire justices cite in their decision is Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary. But, obviously, there are other dictionaries out there. In this particular bookstore, there are nine different dictionaries. Now, six of those dictionaries have similar definitions for adultery. This is the American Heritage Dictionary. And it says adultery is the voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than a lawful spouse.

But then there's this one. This is the D.K. Dictionary Thesaurus. And this one is much more general, saying adultery is sexual infidelity in marriage.

(voice-over): At least four other states have joined New Hampshire in recently issuing decisions on this topic. But those rulings defined adultery more broadly. In many other states, the definition is still ambiguous. So the debate will continue.

Gary Tuchman, CNN.


ZAHN: Well, the court is drawing a line in the sand when it comes to same-sex extramarital affairs. Are they right?

Joining us now to talk about the court's decision is our regular contributor, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and former matrimonial attorney Randee Pomerantz, who argued a case that helped New Jersey define its definition of adultery.

Welcome both.

RANDEE POMERANTZ, FAMILY LAW EXPERT: Thank you. ZAHN: So what's the deal here? If a married woman has sex with another woman, that doesn't constitute adultery?

POMERANTZ: Well, in New Jersey, it did.

We had a case where the husband actually sued for adultery. And, of course, we won. And we set a precedence in New Jersey, stating that an after outside of husband-wife or gay or homosexual relationships is an adulterous affair. It was based on the fact that they defined adultery as sexual -- intimate sexual contact. And there are two definitions for it in the dictionary. New Hampshire apparently decides to go with one of them.

ZAHN: They went with the Webster's Dictionary definition, which we're going to put on the screen right now, that says "the unfaithfulness of a married person to the marriage bed; sexual intercourse by a married man with another than his wife, or voluntary sexual intercourse by a married woman with another than her husband."

So, this definition dismissed intimate relationships among gay and lesbians.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It depends what dictionary you read or what state you're in.

But what's interesting about these decisions is that, for years, gay sex and gay relationships were simply not dealt with in the law. It was as if they didn't exist, as far as the law was concerned. Of course, they existed in the real world. Here, we have this gradual process, state by state, dealing with how to acknowledge that these relationships exist and what their legal implications are.

Like, Vermont has decided that there can be civil unions. Each state is dealing with these questions differently.

ZAHN: So how might other states react to this decision in New Hampshire?

POMERANTZ: Well, I think the law has to show what society is doing, and we are having different marriages today, different unions.

And New York long ago agreed that a gay couple can rent an apartment. Originally, that was not permitted. And the law has to follow what people are doing and set some guidelines. And they must consider adultery, although it's -- then it's unfair to the other party.


ZAHN: I guess you also, though, have to clarify the definition of what sex is. We all remember this, don't we.


ZAHN: Let's listen to this collectively, a former president and his definition. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.


ZAHN: So doesn't adultery depend on what the definition of sex is?

TOOBIN: Well, in part. And states are moving to define it.

Legislatures could clarify this issue. They just tend not to deal with it. But they are gradually getting that way. I think the dissenting justices in New Hampshire really had the right idea, when they quoted Potter Stewart's famous definition of pornography. They said, adultery is similar in that we know it when we see it, and this was adultery.

But they didn't win the case, although they won in New Jersey.

ZAHN: When you talk about society at least reflecting what's going on in society, what are the implications of this, as far as alimony goes, as far as custody battles go?

POMERANTZ: Well, it has a large impact on society.

If you are the spouse who is not having the gay affair, that party who's having a gay affair cannot get married legally right now. In some states, I think California, they're permitted. But other -- I think maybe Hawaii. I'm not sure what other states. That means that that man or woman must pay alimony or may have to pay alimony, because the other party cannot marry or child support.

What if I'm moving in with a wonderfully rich woman? To what extent does that impact the financial determination of a court? I think it has to. I think they can't discount these relationships. They must be addressed.

ZAHN: Do we have any sense of where the American public stands on all this as they watch these court decisions being made?

TOOBIN: It's interesting.

The public had been very much moving towards pro-gay rights decisions, pro -- moving in the direction of acceptance of homosexual relationships. The decision by the Supreme Court last June to say that you can't criminalize gay sex, in a very broad decision by Justice Kennedy, that seems to have set that cause back a little bit with the public. The public didn't like that idea so much.

The public didn't want -- was more conservative, it seemed, than the Supreme Court. So the public is not moving as fast as perhaps elite opinion is in the United States.

ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin, Randee Pomerantz, thank you both for joining us tonight.


ZAHN: We're going to turn now to a story that continues to make headlines.

Jessica Lynch, just who is this American hero? Millions of viewers tuned in yesterday night -- or that would be last night -- to watch a made-for-TV movie on the former prisoner of war's challenge. Her road from capture to rescue to recovery is well-known, or is it? Lynch has given only three sit-down interviews. One of them resulted in this week candid "TIME" magazine cover story.

And "TIME"'s Nancy Gibbs, who met with Lynch and co-wrote the story, joins us now.

Always good to see you. Welcome.

NANCY GIBBS, "TIME": Thank you.

ZAHN: What did you learn from spending time with a family that we didn't know before?


ZAHN: Any misconceptions cleared up?

GIBBS: There are a lot.

There's one that I think she's really intent on clearing up, which is one that has caused her some pain, the whole story we have heard of the sort of Rambo warrior who went down fighting, fired off all her ammunition, fought to the death. She's brutally honest that that bears no resemblance to what she did.

ZAHN: And she feels quite used by the U.S. government, does she not?

GIBBS: What she feels bad about is that people came away with an impression that she was something other than she was. She said: I didn't fire my weapon. It jammed. I couldn't do anything to defend my comrades.

Everyone else who was in that Humvee with her the day it was ambushed died. She's the only one who survived. And it's very painful for her to have discovered when she came back that she was getting credit as being some great heroine or great warrior who had fought so fiercely, when she didn't. I think she's quite determined to set that record straight.

ZAHN: She has also made it quite clear she's resentful of the fact, is she not, that this imagery was somehow used to -- I guess, she has alleged, to support the war effort?

GIBBS: I think that may be going too far. There's nothing she said in all the time we spent with her that was negative about anything other than the very specific intelligence reports about the role that she had played. She views the Army and she views particularly the guys who came in and retrieved her from the hospital as her heroes. She says the idea that this was staged or this was phony or this was all for propaganda is crazy: They got me out.

And she is so thankful that they did. And that's the other thing I think that she wants to make clear. All the reports that -- we asked her, did you hear reports that maybe that rescue wasn't what it seemed to be? And she said: I was there. I know what happened. And those guys are heroes.

ZAHN: I have read a small part of her book. And I have to say, some of the passages are really troubling to read. In it, there is a focus on the fact that she alleged -- is alleged to have been raped. Now, today, some Iraqi doctors and a nurse came out and said that wasn't the case. What do you make of that?

GIBBS: First of all, in the book, it is literally only a couple sentences that deal with what her doctors in Germany concluded. And this is very important. There were no eyewitnesses who are telling us what happened in the time immediately after the ambush. Nobody knows.

She was knocked unconscious, there was no one there to tell us. What her doctors told her is that some of her injuries, apart from the 10 broken bones she suffered, were not consistent with what they would expect to see in a bad wreck. And that was where they said that they were consistent with some kind of a sexual assault. Again, they can't say definitively, because they weren't there. She has no memory of it.

But they felt that those injuries couldn't be explained by the injuries from the car wreck. And so the fact that there's some dispute with the doctors, we can only hope the Iraqi doctors are right and that this didn't happen. But the point is that she was told by her doctors: Some of your injuries seem to go beyond what we would expect to see after a wreck.

ZAHN: Oh, thank God she won't be able to remember any part of that chapter of her life.

GIBBS: That's right.

ZAHN: Nancy Gibbs, thanks for dropping by.

GIBBS: Thank you.

One year and counting, presidential hopefuls are focusing in on Iowa this week. We're going to check in with Senator (sic) Dick Gephardt on the campaign trail. Can he derail Howard Dean?

Also, what happens in a relationship where the woman makes more money than her man? And the latest on the suicide attack in Saudi Arabia. We're going to look at the online debate within al Qaeda on attacking Arab soil.


ZAHN: Welcome back.

On to presidential politics in Iowa, where one poll says Dick Gephardt holds the lead, and to John Kerry, who has fired his campaign manager, as both try to catch up to Howard Dean.

We turn to senior political correspondent Candy Crowley in Washington. Also joining us tonight is "TIME" columnist and our regular contributor Joe Klein.

Welcome both.

So, Candy, what's the significance of this "Des Moines Register" poll?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the race has gone on long enough that Richard Gephardt is coming back.

What happened here is that, when we started out last January, and, actually, even before that, everybody said, Richard Gephardt has to win Iowa or he's done. Then, along came Howard Dean and just pretty much steamrolled over everything. And at one point, I believe he was ahead. He was certainly tied with Richard Gephardt in the polls.

Now comes out a poll from "The Des Moines Register," says that Gephardt has come back and he's seven points up. That's probably the first good news that anybody in the race other than Dean has had in some time. So it's an opening. It makes Howard Dean seem less of a juggernaut, but still pretty formidable. It's better news than being behind. And it does show that there is a certain amount of leeway out there that may point other candidates toward a soft spot.

ZAHN: Let's talk about John Kerry's soft spot right now. He fired his campaign manager. How much trouble is he in? Is this make- or-break time?

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's not make-or-break time, because the public is just beginning to dial into this election in the first states, in Iowa and New Hampshire.

But the Kerry campaign has been in trouble from the get-go. He hasn't had a strong message. He hasn't had any message at all. He's had a mess. Parts of the campaign have been arguing with other parts. There's a Boston contingent, a Washington contingent. And...

ZAHN: Who do you blame for the chaos, the candidate?

KLEIN: The candidate. Of course the candidate. And Kerry is still within striking distance in both Iowa and New Hampshire. One thing I would point out about the Iowa poll is that, at this point, the last time Dick Gephardt ran, he was running last in Iowa and he won it. So these things can change very quickly.

ZAHN: And, as the Bush administration is watching all this play Candy, in Iowa and New Hampshire, how is this going to affect their strategy about what they're going to focus in on, whether it's Iraq or the economy?

CROWLEY: I think they're going to focus on whichever is the strongest point.

Look, there's no way, at this point, that Iraq is not an issue. The Bush campaign, if things go -- we've seen that, overnight, things can go bad and things can go good in Iraq. You go from capturing the sons of Saddam Hussein to things blowing up and many Americans being killed. So, obviously, this is a president whose future does, in some real sense, depend on what happens in Iraq.

But, obviously, the past couple of weeks, they've tried to shift it back to the economy, almost the exact opposite of what his father did. So this will be interesting. Both of them, in the end, turned out to be issues, I think, and hard to weigh them.


ZAHN: Let's close with some talk about Al Gore, back out this weekend, eviscerating the Bush administration. We've heard that before. Did he look like a candidate to you?

KLEIN: I guess he just doesn't want to be forgotten.

ZAHN: Well, what do you think?

KLEIN: Who knows?

It's interesting. Al Gore, in this latest incarnation, is way to the left of where he was in his other incarnations. He's talking about repealing the Patriot Act. I think that he is -- he wants people to know that he's still around. And if this nomination process becomes a total mess, he may be more still around.

ZAHN: So you think this is in play?

KLEIN: It's not exactly in play, but it's not exactly not in play.

ZAHN: So you could twist his arm if the numbers aren't going the way


ZAHN: ... Howard Dean?

KLEIN: I think that, if you have a disaster here, where Gephardt wins one, Dean wins one, John Edwards wins the next one, and nobody emerges, then you may have a Gore candidacy by the convention. But people like me always say things like that, and it never happens.

ZAHN: That's why we rely on Candy.

KLEIN: Good. You should.


CROWLEY: Listen, I'm with Joe. I'm for the most interesting scenario. That's where our bias is, is whatever is the most interesting. whatever we haven't seen before. I think Gore's out of it, though. I just -- I really -- I'm with Joe. I hope for that, but I don't see it.

ZAHN: All right, we'll check in with you guys on the campaign trail and see who's right. Thank you both, Candy and Joe.

Tomorrow night, fun with Dick, Jane and Chrissy. We're going to with the whole Gephardt family on the road to the White House.

Also, do al Qaeda Internet messages hint at the terror group's involvement with the suicide bombings in Saudi Arabia?

And Prince Charles returns to Britain and faces the press and his subjects, as a mysterious scandal threatens the monarchy again.


ZAHN: In the wake of the weekend car bombing that killed at least 17 people in Riyadh, King of Saudi Arabia pledged to strike at militants with an iron fist. The Saudis have blamed the blast on al Qaeda.

And, as Mike Boettcher has learned, there are signs that more attacks could be on the way.


MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the Internet, so far no direct claim of responsibility from al Qaeda. But a statement on the terrorist group's Web site the day after the Riyadh attacks was titled "Preparations For This Blow," a sign perhaps that the group was ready to strike.

Journalist Paul Eedle has been monitoring the message traffic on al Qaeda's Web site, some of the so-called chatter that led to warnings of an impending attack.

PAUL EEDLE, JOURNALIST: It was an incitement to supporters of al Qaeda to wage the jihad in Saudi Arabia. It had a slightly defensive note.

BOETTCHER: Every since the suicide bombings in Riyadh in May, when Saudis were targeted along Westerners, al Qaeda has been trying to justify its decision to launch attacks on Saudi soil, says Eedle. This group posted a slickly-produced hour-long video on the Web. This message from one of the suicide bombers made it clear that al Qaeda viewed the Saudi royal family in the same way it viewed the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There is no Islam in this government. It is the government of lies and evil. And it is this government that betrays our religion. Today's war is a war against all this.

BOETTCHER: But in an online magazine put out by al Qaeda, one of the leaders of the May attacks talks about a real debate within the group, noting that Saudi Arabia provides al Qaeda with recruits and money and that further attacks puts those at risk.

EEDLE: I have no doubt that the people in favor of violence in Saudi Arabia have won the debate. There was a clear statement on the 5th of November signed by al Qaeda explaining in detail what it was doing in Saudi Arabia, again arguing the familiar litany of al Qaeda, that they didn't start the war with the West; the West started it.

BOETTCHER: Paul Eedle says part of al Qaeda's media strategy, particularly on the Internet, is to magnify the effect of any attack and to create fear that another might be on the way. He calls it a war of nerves being waged by Osama bin Laden against Westerners to wear them down and drive them out of Saudi Arabia.

Mike Boettcher, CNN, Stockholm.


ZAHN: The Riyadh bombing raises the worry that Arab nations allied with the U.S. are now in al Qaeda sights, which could lead to more terror in the region. What is the Israeli view of these developments?

For that, we turn to Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is also Israel's prime minister, a man with many titles.

Always good to see you. Welcome.


ZAHN: Do you fear that Israel might be targeted by al Qaeda?

NETANYAHU: It is. It already has been. They've been trying to launch attacks inside Israel and against Israeli targets and against Jewish targets.

But we're part and parcel of the larger target. And the larger target is you, America, America's allies, the Western world, as we understand it. And Saudi Arabia, in this case, thought it would buy protection. It nurtured al Qaeda in the '90s. But now, when you raise a viper, you raise a snake, you nurture it, it comes back and bites you.

ZAHN: So, basically, what we're saying, we shouldn't be surprised that these Middle Eastern countries that are pro-U.S. would be targeted for attack by al Qaeda?

NETANYAHU: Well, some of them are pro-U.S. and are one-sided and clear and clear-cut, as, for example, Jordan.

But some of them are two-sided. Like, Saudi Arabia was pro-U.S., but, for many years, nurtured al Qaeda. A lot of these operatives were Saudi operatives or received schooling and money in Saudi Arabia, that thought it could sort of have both worlds, be nice to the U.S., but also nurture a fanaticism that hated the U.S. Now this fanaticism turns back and says, you are really an agent of the U.S. and we're going to knock out any U.S. and Western presence from the Arabian Peninsula.

ZAHN: Well, it strikes me that Israel has a far larger problem than al Qaeda. When at this new poll that just came out by the European Commission, this is stunning. It shows that 59 percent of Europeans find Israel to be the main threat to peace in the world. That is ahead of Iran, North Korea, and the United States. What does that mean?

NETANYAHU: Well, it means that you're right next to us in the European perception.

I think the problem is with Europe, not with Israel, because, if the Europeans are saying that the threat to world peace is Israel and the U.S., alongside Iran, that's ridiculous. And I think that part of the problem is the European duality. On the one hand, they want to have the freedoms and the leisure of life that we have. On the other hand, they attack a country like the U.S. that protects those freedoms and a country like Israel, which in fact is standing in the front line guarding Europe, because, if we weren't there, all that fanaticism would simply move to the next place, which is Europe.

ZAHN: Before I let you go, I want you to quickly answer this question about allegations that Yasser Arafat has taken hundreds of millions of dollars -- now, this is something you told us a couple years ago -- out of the Palestinian Authority, put it in a private account. Now he's even agreed to an investigation. Do you think it's going to yield anything and do you think the numbers are bigger than that?


NETANYAHU: It will yield that he's a fantastic investor and a great businessman, right? That's a joke.


ZAHN: I got that. I'm with you.

NETANYAHU: He has been siphoning -- look, this is not a democracy. This is an autocrat, a dictator, who both kills people and steals money from his own people.

And that's why even the Europeans have stopped giving him money, because they realize that they're merely padding his pockets and padding also the pockets of suicide bombers and those who launch them. So I think that we have to understand that money that goes to the Palestinian Authority invariably ends up in Arafat's hands and it usually goes to terror and against peace. I think that's not widely understood, not only in Washington in the United States, but around the world.

ZAHN: Benjamin Netanyahu, good of you to drop by. Thanks so much for your time tonight.

NETANYAHU: Nice to see you. Thank you.

ZAHN: An incredible story of survival: A toddler pronounced dead from drowning is revived almost an hour later, after being spotted by a police officer actually investigating the death.

And power and money: surviving in a relationship when the woman is in charge.

We'll be right back.


ZAHN: And welcome back. Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

American soldiers could see more action in a volatile part of Iraq. The Associated Press is reporting coalition bombings in the Sunni Triangle may intensify if loyalists to Saddam Hussein continue to attack.

The White House was put on alert today when a single-engine plane flew into its restricted airspace. Fighter jets escorted the plane to a runway in North Carolina. Authorities say the pilot posed no threat, and say the violation was an accident.

Two weeks from now, most American cell phone customers will be able to keep their phone numbers when they switch carriers. The FCC today cleared the way for that as well as transferring home numbers to cell phones.

Now on to the impact of Alpha women and Beta men on the American family. In other words, women who outearn their husbands. It is the cover story of the "New York" magazine.

And we're going to be talking with Jami Floyd. She is a correspondent for ABC News, the program "20/20," while her husband, Kurt Fleninger, is a stay-at-home dad.

And in Chicago tonight, sex therapist Laura Berman, also can the co-host with her sister of Berman and Berman on the Discovery Health Channel.

Good to see all of you. Welcome.

So let's talk about what you did in your other life. You were a criminal defense attorney. KURT FLENINGER, STAY-AT-HOME DAD: Criminal defense lawyer, worked 60 hours a week. One day we found out Jami was going to have a baby. And she had just started ABC News, and it was time to decide what would happens at the end of her four-month maternity leave, and it seemed like the perfect opportunity to do something I had always wanted to do.

ZAHN: You might have thought it was a perfect opportunity, but you had to be concerned about what the perceptions were of your choice.

FLENINGER: Oh, absolutely. But...

ZAHN: I mean, there's always a concern of being emasculated by this decision.

FLENINGER: Well, it is. I mean, every day people look at you that way. But that -- whether you choose to accept that or not is whether you're happy to do it. If you stay at home and you're happy with, you know, who you are in your decision, then you live with the way people look at you. I have family members who look at me a little bit askance at time.

ZAHN: They don't accept it.


JAMI FLOYD, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: But you do have to go into, I think, knowing that. I think you go in with your eyes closed, thinking it's going to be this romantic, idyllic experience, then you will be disappointed. It's a rude awakening.

But I think if you go into knowing that you're really challenging some societal norms and that will be part of every day for you, as the family and as the stay-at-home dad and as the working mom, then I think you're ready for the challenge, as long as you've got those eyes open.

ZAHN: But what kind of friction has it created in your relationship?

FLOYD: Well, you know, I think the key is communication. And for us, whenever there has been friction, we've managed to communicate about it.

We have, you know, no expectation that he'll be bringing in money, so it's not about the artist who isn't earning, or the singer who's, you know, out with his hat on the corner. He is -- is contribution is to raise the children, and of course, I have to jump on planes at the last minute and all of that kind of thing. So he's contributing to the professional life.

ZAHN: So in other words, you don't feel guilty when you need a check from your wife...

FLENINGER: Absolutely not. ZAHN: pay for something?

FLENINGER: Absolutely not. Money -- we have our money issues...



ZAHN: Laura, weigh in here on Jami's and Kurt's relationship. This isn't all that unusual an arrangement in America today, is it?

LAURA BERMAN, SEX THERAPIST: No, the arrangement is not at all unusual. But I think Kurt and Jami are -- it sounds like they've done a phenomenal job of negotiating through this, and also have the kind of characters and personalities that allow for it. It requires that the man feel very confident and self-assured. And also is usually necessary that the woman have some sense of respect and admiration for her partner. And that clearly exists here as well, not only in terms of what he's contributing now, but who he is as a person and as a potentially professional person as well as the stay-at-home dad.

ZAHN: I talked with other women who've considered these kind of arrangements, and their biggest concern is, you know -- forget about the financial security of the family, but the more personal problems --the impact on your sex life, for example.

FLOYD: You have to be very comfortable with who you are before you begin this.

I think a lot of marriages that try this run into trouble, because the marriage was probably already in some straits before they get into it. But this does challenge all of your ideas about what it means to be feminine, about what it means to be masculine, about what it means to be romantic. And you have to be solid and assured enough in yourself and in the marriage before you go into this or you will come into some trouble.

And, you know, that goes to all issues. I don't think it's just the sexual issue. I think it also has to do with across the board, parenting and just the day-to-day, you know, mundane things we deal with as families.

ZAHN: But even as sincere as you are about the contribution you're making to your family, you're still hitting this concern from other family members. That's got to hurt.

FLENINGER: It does. But again, Jami's right. It's about self- confidence. If you do it because you've chosen to do it, it's one thing. If you do it because you were on the career path and you've slowly fallen off and you find yourself looking for a job and unable to do it, that could be very emasculating. That would be very difficult.

FLOYD: But you know what? That's the same thing for women. I think the choice to stay at home is a complicated one. And it's really hard for a man who stays at home, because you do have to be sure your wife's going to look at you the same way and your friends and your dad and father-in-law, and all of those things we've run into.

But even a woman who stays home has to make sure she's doing it for the right reasons, not because the career just hasn't worked out.

ZAHN: Laura, final word on how common these relationships might be down the road?

BERMAN: Well, they're very common and they're becoming more common. But it really turns the gender roles upside down. And we all like to think that we're open-minded and that we're fine, you know, switching gender roles.

But the bottom line is that it's not so easy to do it, and it really requires a lot communication, as we've heard. But also, it requires that both people are flexible, and are willing to let go of those traditional gender roles, which is not necessarily easy for everybody to do.

ZAHN: Honest answer, are you crazed as most of us are at breakfast time? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the backpacks and trying to get the kids to inhale food?

FLENINGER: Absolutely. Who likes that?

ZAHN: Oh, good. An honest dad.

Jami Floyd, Kurt Fleninger, Laura Berman, thank you for your time tonight.

A national leader and his most trusted advisers, all dedicated members and devout believers in the same faith. Politics and religion in America. How much sway does faith have in the Bush White House?

And it is a scandal that no one can talk about, but it's all anyone in Britain is talking about. Prince Charles, the royal family, and the tabloids.


ZAHN: A new book is reviving the debate about the line between church and state in the Bush White House. Stephen Mansfield is author of "The Faith of George W. Bush." He's with us tonight to discuss how religion in the Bush presidency affect the nation.

Journalist and author David Frum is a former Bush speechwriter -- from "The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush". He is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

And Barry Lynn is the executive director of Executives United for Separation of Church and State and an ordained, United Church of Christ minister. He joins us from the Washington bureau tonight. Welcome all. Stephen, I want to start off with one of your quotes tonight. When you talk about why he sought the highest office in the land after all. You said, "I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president. Something's going to happen and, at that time, my country is going to need me. I know it won't be easy, in fact, I really don't want to run." Is God playing a bigger role in this president's life than in any other president in history?

STEPHEN MANSFIELD, "THE FAITH OF PRESIDENT BUSH": Well, I can't speak for God and what he's doing, but...

ZAHN: Just the impact it's having?

MANSFIELD: Absolutely.

ZAHN: The way he thinks?

MANSFIELD: I think George W. Bush has come to office with a theology and a philosophy that does have an application of faith to public policy more so than other presidents. We've had other presidents who have spoken about their faith, spoken about even being born again, but they didn't have the same sense that they should apply their faith to their role in office.

ZAHN: David, you sat in on a bunch of meetings with this president. Help us understand how it colors what he moves forward with.

DAVID FRUM, FRM. PRESIDENT BUSH SPEECHWRITER: You need to understand, and people can either be alarmed or reassured by this, George Bush makes a decision the way a secular-minded president would. He's not on a secret agent on a mission from God.

As he has told us, when he prays, he prays for strengths and guidance, Not for particular instructions. But look, we live in a time of testing, a difficult time of testing, and presidents needs sources of strength. And I think President Bush's favorite psalm is the 27th psalm. Where the psalmist says, "that though an army is arrayed against me, I will not feel fear."

Well, an army is arrayed against the United States now and it's good that the president has got sources of confidence.

ZAHN: Well, some people, Barry, are very inspired about how openly the president talks about his faith. Others are quite uncomfortable. Do you think that this president blurred the line between church and state?

BARRY LYNN, EXEC. DIR. AMERICAN'S UNITED: I really think he has, and I think many Americans are concerned that this president has said and he said it to his own cabinet secretaries, that he believes he was chosen by God to serve at this time.

Many more Americans are worried, because he appears to be turning his religious beliefs into public policy. For example, the that way he uses religion and gives a little sermonette while signing that bill last week on the so-called partial birth abortion, when he promotes government funded religion in the form of the faith based initiative or decides that he's going to divert tax dollars to religious private schools.

All of these things seem to be motivated by a deep religious commitment, but one which unfortunately ignores the Constitution of the United States. That's what's so troubling to a growing number of Americans.

ZAHN: Stephen and David, let's review what Barry was just talking about. When the president signed into law the partial birth abortion law. Let's listen.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Right to life cannot be granted or denied by government, because it does not come from government. It comes from the creator of life.


ZAHN: Violation of church and state?

MANSFIELD: No, not at all. The separation of church and state was designed to keep the institutional church out of the affairs of government, but never to keep the application of faith and principle out of the making of law.

ZAHN: Would you have written what the president had said?

FRUM: That very line is sucker bait for the likes of Barry Lynn. If you are going to say that this is a violation of the wall of separation, that language was written by the same guy who wrote the letter from which the phrase the wall of separation comes. It clearly cannot be a violation of church and state to quote the Declaration of Independence, or to paraphrase it in a speech.


ZAHN: Is that what this is, Barry? Sucker Bait?

FRUM: I think it would be quite amusing to the people that wrote that to see people like Barry Lynn react against it.

LYNN: No, we understand exactly what was going on. For example, "The New York Times," the day after that signing had a front-page photograph where the president is making that statement. And what is in front of him in the front row, a phalanx of the top religious right leaders in the United States of America including Jerry Falwell, the man who blamed Americans for the destruction of the World Trade Center just two and a half years ago.

So let's not mistake what's going on here. This isn't about clever speechwriting, this is about a very rigid political agenda. The president may be very religious, I have no doubt about that, but Karl Rove and other political advisers want to get 3 to 4 million more evangelical votes in the next presidential election. So the overlay of politics, partisan politics on what is said and done about this president about religion is very, very large.

ZAHN: Certainly not the way the two of you see it, exactly.

MANSFIELD: Not at all.

ZAHN: But clearly three interesting points of views this evening. Thank you for dropping by. Barry, when's your book coming? David Frum out with an old book. And Barry Lynn, when's your book coming?

LYNN: Any day now.

ZAHN: Oh, good. We'll bring you on the minute you have it done. Thanks.

The British monarchy faces yet another scandal. Yet this one involves the heir to the throne, Prince Charles can't be mentioned in public. We'll tell you why.

And then a little life nearly lost, the heroes who saved a toddler nearly an hour after she was pronounced dead.


ZAHN: Britain's Prince Charles is back home today, facing what must be one of the weirdest scandals yet. Papers in England, Wales and Northern Ireland still can't publish any details of the alleged incident involving Prince Charles, an incident the prince has denied. But it could be the worst-kept secret in the United Kingdom. Diane Muriel is standing by in London with word about a meeting the prince held with his staff today.

Good evening, Diana, what do we know about that meeting?

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT; Hello, Paula. Well, we know that the prince has been in contact with his senior aides and his closest advisers on his return to Britain on Sunday. He's been speaking with his staff about what strategy they should adopt.

Now, we spoke to Clarence House, which is the prince's official residence in London and acts as his office. And they told us that the prince will not be making a televised statement on this issue, and he does not plan any legal action at this stage. Of course, all of this centers on allegations that a British newspaper has been skirting around. They haven't gone ahead and published them, because they can't. They are the subject of a court reporting ban that was put in place last week, but we know that these allegations are made by a former royal valet, George Smith, and that they concern an alleged sexual incident which this valet claims to have witnessed.

Now, Prince Charles last week also came out and said that he was the senior royal at the heart of these allegations, and that the allegations were untrue, but the court reporting ban is still in place, Paula, and I cannot tell you what the details of the allegations are.

ZAHN: But wait a minute. All you have to do is travel to Scotland, and you get the juicy details, right?

MURIEL: Well, that's right. One of the Scottish newspapers, "The Glasgow Sunday Herald," published the details. Now, Scotland, of course is not subject to exactly the same laws as pertain in England and Wales, and of course the story is out there on the Internet and has been for some days, and it was published last week by the Italian newspaper, "Coriana della Cella (ph)." So it's out there, Paula.

ZAHN: And what's the prince's strategy in all of this in the days to come?

MURIEL: Well, it seems that he's going to go back to the original royal strategy, which is never complain, never explain. A bit late for that, because he's already explained something, but not in full. And so made the story run a little bit further.

ZAHN: Diana Muriel, thanks for the update. Appreciate it.

We're going to take a short break. It looked like the worst kind of tragedy, a child not even 2 years old yet found motionless in a backyard pool, pronounced dead. Tonight, the story of how two heroes brought her back from the brink of death.


ZAHN: She's being called a miracle baby, and it's easy to see why. On Friday, 22-month-old Mackayla Jasperson (ph) was declared dead after she was found floating in the family's pool in California. But 40 minutes later, she was revived after showing signs of life, and is now responding to touch and sound. Joining us from Anaheim are two of her rescuers, Detective Michael Kendrick and Officer Richard Gibson of the Fullerton Police Department. Welcome, gentlemen. Thank you for sharing your story with us tonight.



ZAHN: Officer Gibson, take us back. You got a call with your partner, you were among the first officers on the scene after the 911 call. Was there a point at which you did not think you'd be able to revive Mackayla (ph)?

GIBSON: Yes, to be honest with you, there was a point, but we continued CPR until the paramedics arrived on scene. We weren't going to give up.

ZAHN: How hard were you trying?

GIBSON: I don't know that I can even describe how hard I was trying. Anytime you see a small child like that in the position that she was in, you're going to give it your all and that's what we were trying to do. ZAHN: And then you had to confront that really harsh reality when she was basically pronounced dead. You've never been on the job when that declaration was made before. How piercing was it when you had tried desperately to save this little girl's life?

GIBSON: As you can imagine, there's tons of emotions going there. Again, it was a child. We had tried with all our power to save her, and of course we became sad and disappointed.

ZAHN: Now, Detective Kendrick, we'll fast-forward a little. When you found yourself in the room where the investigation was going on, with the body not too far away from you, and then you started to hear her gasp?

KENDRICK: That's correct. I was preparing to complete my report, and going to take some picture of Mackayla (ph) for our criminal investigation. As I'm taking my photographs, I hear her periodically gasp. And the more photographs I took, the more regular her breathing became.

ZAHN: I can't even understand how you would have felt at that point?

KENDRICK: Disbelief. I had to speak with my partner, Brent Rebarr (ph), confirmed with him, are you seeing what I'm saying? We had been up for numerous hours on another case. And I just thought I was tired. I talked to Brent (ph), and he says, no, it looks like this child is breathing, and I was like, go and get some help.

ZAHN: What would have happened if the coroner had gotten to the hospital before you and your partner did?

KENDRICK: Sad to say, the coroner would have examined the body of Mackayla (ph), put her in a body bag. She would have been transported to the coroner's office, probably put into a refrigerator until tomorrow morning, until the next day where an autopsy would have been performed. So she may have just died in that bag.

ZAHN: And I understand it was you that had to tell Mackayla's (ph) mother that her child was dead, and then turn around a short time later and tell her she was alive.

KENDRICK: That was one of the most devastating, you know -- it's never easy to do a death notification, let alone a child, but once I found out that Mackayla (ph) was -- had a pulse, I was eager to get back to the conference room and notify Melissa there, Melissa that Mackayla (ph) had a pulse.

ZAHN: And Officer Gibson, even though you're experiencing the joy of now seeing this little girl alive, this situation is just terrifying. Who do you blame for what happened to Mackayla (ph)?

GIBSON: You know, I just don't know if I can blame any specific person or entity for this. This is truly a miracle, and I think we've all just been blessed by this child being alive, and we're looking forward to a speedy recovery for her, and we're praying for her and her family.

ZAHN: Well, Officers Gibson and Kendrick, I know I couldn't believe it when I heard the story for the first time. And we thank you for dropping by to help us better understand what really took place there. Good luck to both of you.

KENDRICK: Thank you.

GIBSON: Thank you.

ZAHN: Talk about inspiration. We want to thank you all for being with us tonight. That wraps it up here. We hope you'll be back with the same time, same place tomorrow night. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Again, thanks for dropping by. Good night.


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