PAULA ZAHN NOW
Scathing New Report on U.S. Intelligence; Bush Administration Losing Control; Princess Diana's Son's Say Book Is A Betrayal
Aired October 24, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: a scathing new report on the CIA. Was the prewar threat from Iraq vastly overstated? And does it mean the entire U.S. intelligence system is broken?
Criticism of the Bush White House increases from the most unlikely of sources, fellow Republicans. Is an administration known for its discipline and control losing its grip?
She says she's waiting for a promotion that just won't come. Is this Harvard librarian being shelved because she dresses too sexy?
Good evening. Welcome. Glad to have you with us as we wrap up the week here.
Also ahead: the chilling accounts of American troops as they face war's ultimate reality, taking human lives.
Plus: the end of the line for the Concorde. Our own Richard Quest shows us his video diary after taking the final supersonic trans-Atlantic flight.
Plus: the new movie starring Oscar winners Anthony Hopkins and Nicole Kidman and why it may open painful wounds for black America.
Also: a tongue lashing from the sons of Princess Diana. We're going to hear what Prince William and Prince Harry have to say about the tell-all book by their mother's butler.
First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
A raging wildfire is forcing at least 2,000 people from their homes in the eastern suburbs of Los Angeles tonight. Santa Ana winds are driving the flames, endangering electric lines that supply 25 percent of L.A. County's power. Smoke and debris have been falling in on Hollywood 40 miles to the west; 1,400 firefighters are battling the flames. And winds are expected to pick up over the weekend. The fire began Tuesday afternoon. Authorities suspect it is a case of arson.
Rescuers are racing against time and rising water as they try to save 46 miners trapped a half-mile underground in a Russian coal mine 600 miles south of Moscow. More than 24 hours ago, water broke through an abandon shaft nearby. Scuba divers arrived today to try to swim through the mine to reach the trapped workers. Bulldozers have also been pushing and concrete into the abandoned shaft in an effort to block the source of the water. We're going to start tonight by considering how smart is U.S. intelligence. Sources tell CNN, the Senate's Intelligence Committee is getting ready a scathing report on U.S. intelligence efforts in the run-up to the Gulf War.
Let's turn to national security correspondent David Ensor, who has more for us now from Washington.
Good evening, David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula.
Well, as you say, Senate sources are telling us that, though the report has not been completed, it is likely to include scathing language about the intelligence on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction that was gathered before the war and specifically that a national intelligence estimate, a classified report done for the president in October of last year, used circumstantial evidence in some cases and information from single sources only to back up its assertions that Iraq had WMD.
Now, today, the senior U.S. intelligence official who oversaw the writing of that report told CNN that he stands by it 100 percent. He predicted weapons may yet be found in Iraq by the team that is headed by CIA man David Kay.
STUART COHEN, CIA: No one should be surprised that it is difficult to find these weapons.
ENSOR: Do you think there are some there, still?
COHEN: I do, personally. But the reality is, given where David Kay is in his work -- and, as I say, he's barely scratched the surface in some areas -- everybody needs to take a deep breath on this one.
ENSOR: Cohen says Kay's team needs another six to nine months and everyone should calm down and wait for his final report -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, David, if weapons of mass destruction are ultimately found, would that put to rest all of these allegations?
ENSOR: Well, that is certainly something the administration and the intelligence community seem to hope and believe may yet happen. And, yes, it probably would. But, at the moment, George Tenet is under some fire, as you saw.
ZAHN: David Ensor, thanks for the update. Appreciate it so much.
At a time when the shadowy world of spies and secret information is key to the war on terror, it is worth asking, what the heck is going on here? "In Focus" tonight: Is U.S. intelligence broken?
Joining me now from Washington is former CIA officer Reuel Marc Gerecht. He is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Also with us tonight, "TIME" magazine's justice correspondent, Elaine Shannon.
Good evening to both of you.
ZAHN: So, Elaine, how badly broken is the U.S. intelligence system?
ELAINE SHANNON, "TIME": Well, broken is a tough word.
This is an art, not a science. Everybody says that. I was talking to a CIA official just before I came over here and said, well, what about these allegations that single-source, circumstantial? And he said, yes, welcome to our world. Like journalism, CIA people have to play the cards that they're dealt. And they don't get all the cards, so they want more understanding.
They do say that they probably should have kept in a few more of the may-have and probablys when they produced the October 2002 intelligence report about WMD, because it seems now, in retrospect, a bit overly positive.
ZAHN: Reuel, what do you think is the most glaring deficiency in the system today?
REUEL MARC GERECHT, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, I think you have to state two things.
One, we were absolutely positive at one time there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, because the Iraqis themselves admitted to it. The issue is, after the inspectors left in '98, how good was our intelligence what we know about what Saddam did with those weapons? And it certainly is fair to say that the agency obviously didn't have any sources inside of the central circles in Iraq, didn't have any sources inside the weapons of mass destruction programs.
Or, otherwise, we'd have a much better idea of what he did with those. So it's a hard target. And, certainly, the agency didn't do a good job with it.
ZAHN: And, Elaine, given what Reuel just described as the lack of access to perhaps the inner workings of the Iraqi government, how would you rate the quality of the intelligence overall that we're getting out of the Middle East?
SHANNON: I don't rate it, because I can't see it all. And I think it would -- nobody -- even the analysts don't see everything. And they certainly don't see who it came from and how much the person was paid and if that person -- if you know the history of the person who's making the charge, maybe there's a reason besides what's true. Certainly, there have always been a lot of complaints about the quality of human intelligence from that region. And I don't think they're going to stop.
ZAHN: Reuel, then, what do you think needs to be done in terms of reform at the CIA?
GERECHT: Well the agency still, more or less, is operating with the methodologies it had in the Cold War, the way officers are deployed overseas, the way they're actually set up at headquarters.
The Bush administration has introduced a new era; 9/11 is the pivot point of a new history. We have got a war on terrorism, the axis of evil doctrine. But, essentially, the bureaucracies are unchanged. They have adapted to this new world and new targets. And a lot needs to be done, except that change is, I think, going to have to be revolutionary. Otherwise, more or less, the same thing will continue.
ZAHN: Elaine, you get the final word tonight. How damning do you think the Senate Select Committee's report is that is in the making?
SHANNON: Well, it would be interesting to know when it's going to come out. Jay Rockefeller, who is the ranking Democrat on the committee, said, oh, no, we shouldn't even be doing an interim report before January or February, and the final report should be way next year.
Pat Roberts, who is the chairman, wants it yesterday. And I think this is why this is coming up now. And Tenet, George Tenet, the head of the CIA, wants them to talk to more of his people. And he wants more hearings. And I think he hopes to carve off some of the sharp edges on this. So we'll see. There's a lot of politics going on.
ZAHN: Well, we appreciate both of your insights tonight, Elaine Shannon, Reuel Marc Gerecht. Again, good of you to drop by.
ZAHN: The questions about the quality and the use of intelligence by the Bush administration come at the end of a week that has seen a string of controversies. There was Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's slog memo and then the storm over General William Boykin's comments about Islam.
To debate whether the Bush administration is losing its grip and what, if anything, the Democrats can do about that, I'm joined now by our regular contributor, "TIME" magazine columnist James Klein. In our D.C. bureau tonight is "The L.A. Times" Washington bureau chief, Doyle McManus.
Welcome. JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi.
ZAHN: So, Doyle, first off, do you think the Bush administration has lost its grip or its sense of control over the communication message here?
DOYLE MCMANUS, "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES": Paula, it sure looks that way.
It may not be a permanent loss of control. But, as you pointed out, it's not only this intelligence problem. It's also that mysterious leak of a Rumsfeld memo saying that things aren't going as well as we thought. And that comes after the leak investigation, of course, about the unmasking of a CIA spy. And it comes after a lot of back-and-forth over who's in charge of the occupation of Iraq.
This is an administration that prided itself on never showing any internal debate. And, boy, there is a lot of internecine warfare going on this week.
ZAHN: Who's dropping the ball here, Joe?
KLEIN: Well, I think that the problem at the bottom of all this is that the war has not gone well. It hasn't gone the way that they expected it to go.
And so the people who are -- seem to be losing their grip the most are the people who are in charge of the war, especially Donald Rumsfeld, who seems to be having like a slow-motion public nervous breakdown.
ZAHN: It all started with the Condi announcement, right?
KLEIN: Yes, attacking Condoleezza Rice, and then the slog memo, and then dissing the senators on the Armed Service Committee who wanted to have an accounting from him about General Boykin. So you have that. You have the CIA controversy going on and the usual battles between State and Defense and the national security office and both. So it is a mess.
ZAHN: So, Doyle, what is the strategy the White House uses now?
MCMANUS: Well, I think they need to find a way to get this under control.
Joe is absolutely right. And a lot of this is just an old- fashioned blame game. That's also true on that intelligence report: Who is at fault for faulty intelligence getting into the president's speeches? Is it the NSC, under Condi Rice? Is it George Tenet, who a lot of conservative Republican senators would like to get out of there? Who's to blame for the problems we're seeing in Iraq? Is it Rumsfeld? Is it Powell? Is it somebody else? And there's nothing like the prospect of a presidential election to concentrate the mind. I think what we are going to see is more statements from the president saying, as he had to last week: I'm the one in charge.
I think we're going to see an effort by Condoleezza Rice, who hasn't done this yet, to bring some of these 500-pound guerrillas under control. But it may be easy and it may not be very pleasant to watch.
ZAHN: Let's talk about the opening here for Democrats. What are they going to do?
KLEIN: Well, I think that they have been trying to make a lot of this. But the basic fact is that people have not been paying attention to the Democratic race. They have another debate this Sunday. And the ratings for all the debates so far have been minuscule.
What's been happening right now is that you see both John Kerry and Wes Clark getting into trouble because they can't quite explain their positions on Iraq. "The New York Times" today said that John Kerry took 40 minutes to explain his position on Iraq. And you have other candidates, like John Edwards, who are -- who have taken conflicting positions on it.
ZAHN: So it's clearly showing that it's not enough to be the strongest anti-Bush candidate out there?
KLEIN: Well, I think that Howard Dean is having a good run of it. And there's a poll out today in New Hampshire that has him leading John Kerry 40 to 17. He seems to be the only one who has profited by this, in part, because of his position on the war, but also in part because he's speaking English.
ZAHN: Joe Klein, Doyle McManus, thank you for your time this evening.
MCMANUS: Thank you.
ZAHN: The reality of the war. We're going to see how American troops handle the horror of having killed for the first time, a chilling look inside the war in Iraq.
And then we're going to take you on board the last trans-Atlantic flight of the Concorde with Richard Quest's video diary.
And a Harvard librarian with two Master's degrees sues the school. Does she dress too sexy to be promoted?
ZAHN: With American military forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other trouble spots around the world, there's often talk of the troops' dedication and their patriotism. But what is rarely discussed is what military forces actually do. They kill. Candy Crowley with an excerpt from this weekend's "CNN PRESENTS": "Fit to Kill."
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even in Iraq, there are quiet times, and the afterthoughts come.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some days, I'm just sitting in my rack here, just thinking about what we did over the war. Those two bodies always stick out in my head. Or sometimes, you dream about it. You just wake up in a sweat.
CROWLEY: Some of the newest warriors are coming home now, finding, as they all do, that, when you leave the battlefield, it does not always leave you.
In Iraq, Corporal Casey Brommer remembers the trip along the Tigris to Baghdad and coming under fire.
CORPORAL CASEY BROMMER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: We called in with some artillery and some napalm and things like that. Some innocent women and children got hit. We met them on the road, and they had little girls with noses blown off and, like, husbands carrying their dead wives and things like that. That was extremely difficult to deal with, because you're like, shoot, what the hell did we do now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go, let's go, let's go!
CROWLEY: The Pentagon is taking unprecedented steps to identify service members struggling to cope. Every one coming home is screened for health problems, including mental health. On a battery of questions about psychological trauma: Did you see anyone wounded, killed or dead? Have you had experiences that were so frightening, horrible or upsetting that you had nightmares?
COL. JIM STOKES, ARMY PSYCHIATRIST: It's probable more people are feeling it than are showing it. And so many of these people feel, I can't talk about it, because everybody else seems to be taking it so well and not feeling it. And so I have to pretend not to be feeling it, too.
CROWLEY: But getting troops into therapy is not easy. It's seen as a career-ender, a sign of weakness in a macho culture.
SGT. ANTHONY RIDDLE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: When you talk to your other Marines, you want to try to sound hard. You're like, yes, I dropped that guy. It ain't no big deal. But really, you're thinking in your head, man, it is a big deal.
ZAHN: A lot for all of us to consider. Be sure to watch "Fit to Kill" on "CNN PRESENTS" this weekend, candid profiles of soldiers who killed in combat, from World War II to the recent war in Iraq. That happens at 8:00 p.m. Eastern on Sunday and then again 11:00 p.m. Eastern.
One last trip across the pond at 1,300 miles an hour, as the world says farewell to the Concorde.
And in a rare public statement, Britain's Prince William and Prince Harry lash out at their mother's butler for his tell-all book. We're going to hear what they have to say.
ZAHN: When the Concorde flew from New York to London today, it also flew into history. The supersonic airliner is now out of service.
Richard Quest was on that last flight across the pond with all of his closest friends. He joins us now from London.
How was it, Richard?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of my closest friends, you, Paula, you weren't there alongside us.
But the trip itself, absolutely magnificent. Now, all day, we've been seeing pictures of Concorde coming in to land, turning left, turning right. Instead, I decided to take along one of those little portable video cameras, exclusively for you, Paula. I wanted to give you a taste of what it was like on board.
Now, the shots are a bit shaky and the camera work is a bit dodgy, but at least it's my impression of the day on Concorde.
QUEST (voice-over): This is the picture the world saw as Concorde left New York. And this is how I saw it on board the plane, rattling down the runway at more than 200 miles an hour.
(on camera): So a picture-perfect liftoff for the last time from Kennedy Airport. And many good wishes, not only from the airport workers, but from the other planes waiting for their turn to get into the sky.
(voice-over): The well-known on board were happy to play along with spot the celeb. But the chairman of British Airways, Lord Marshall, is hardly hip. Ah, Joan Collins, that's more like it. She's always happy to give you a smile.
JOAN COLLINS, ACTRESS: CNN, yes.
CROWLEY: With so many journalists on board, it was inevitable things would be cramped, as we tried to get the most out of our supersonic trip. It would be equally churlish to turn down the goodies on offer.
(on camera): A special menu has been created for today's final flight, including smoked salmon, caviar, lobster and eggs with wild mushroom and truffles.
(voice-over): If all this looked like watering the horses, it was over too soon. London called. We gave a warm welcome.
Andy Warhol called it the 15 minutes of fame. Count my time on the red carpet in seconds. Hey, Concorde, champagne, and celebs, a perfect day.
QUEST: Now, some people have suggested, Paula -- I've got to be polite here -- that it wasn't exactly the A-list of celebrities on board Concorde today, maybe somewhere lower down the alphabet.
But I think that ignores the point, because the real celebrity was the plane itself. As British Airways have described it, she's the plane who made a pond out of an ocean.
ZAHN: Is this the last we're going to see of it? Because there were some big ads that Virgin put out today, right, on both sides of the pond.
QUEST: If Virgin Atlantic -- you heard it here first -- if Virgin Atlantic ever manage to fly a Concorde in their own colors, I'll buy you dinner, Paula, at the restaurant of your choice.
There is no way British Airways are going to hand over the keys to Concorde. The next time they will be seen flying will be after the various museums that they're going to be housed in, one of which, of course, may well be in New York City. They're planning to put a Concorde on the barge and park it next to the Intrepid in the Hudson. They're still talking about that. We'll know some more about it in the next week.
ZAHN: Well, you're on with your bet, Richard. There are a lot of great diners in the neighborhood. After you have been so spoiled with your $6,000 adventure, I hope we can please you here in New York City.
Glad you got there safely.
QUEST: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: We're going to take a short break here.
We're going to meet the Harvard librarian when we come back who is suing the school for alleged discrimination. Does she dress too provocatively to be promoted?
And Anthony Hopkins and Nicole Kidman starring in a new movie. We're going to show you how it may reopen painful wounds for black America.
And then on Monday, as the NBA kicks off its new season in the shadow of the Kobe Bryant case, we're going to see how pro basketball is trying to keep its young players out of trouble off the court. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Defending their mother's honor, Britain's young princes blast her butler over his latest tell-all book about the late princess of Wales.
More on that in a moment, but first, here are some of the other headlines you need to know right now. A high-profile visit to Fort Stewart, Georgia, planned by Army Secretary Les Brownlee, it is in response to widely publicized complaints this week from soldiers, many just back from Iraq, complaining of poor medical care and living conditions.
More American women than ever don't have children. That's according to a new Census Bureau figure. They say almost 44 percent of women under the age of 44 have no kids, many by choice. That's up about 10 percent from the last decade.
And basketball's Pat Riley is calling it quits. He resigned today as coach of the Miami Heat, although he will stay on as president. Riley is the NBA's second most successful coach ever, with 1,110 victories.
A movie opening next week is being billed as a mystery starring Oscar winners Anthony Hopkins and Nicole Kidman. But a key point in the plot may well open old wounds in many black American families.
ZAHN (voice-over): In "The Human Stain," Sir Anthony Hopkins plays Coleman Silk, a distinguished professor with a secret, a secret that's about to destroy his life.
The professor has been having an affair with a much younger woman, a college janitor, played by Nicole Kidman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIR ANTHONY HOPKINS, ACTOR: Granted, she is not my great love, but she sure as hell is my last love.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: He loses his job after being falsely accused of making a racist comment. The irony is he's a black man who has passed for white since his youth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICOLE KIDMAN, ACTRESS: You lost everything. You lost your wife. You lost your job. They took your life away from you over a stupid, pithy little word. That's not nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: The concept of "passing" has been around since the days of Jim Crow in the Deep South. Rather than fight what they saw as a losing battle, some light-skinned blacks and mixed race people tried to escape the world of white-only bathrooms, lunch counters, buses, jobs and schools by pretending to be white.
But their deception came with a heavy price, they were forced to leave their homes and loved ones, alter birth certificates, Social Security cards, any documents identifying their race. And there was the fear that someone, someday might recognize them and expose them for who and what they were.
Joining us now, two of the stars of "The Human Stain," which opens a week from today, Anna DeVeare Smith and Wentworth Miller.
Good to see both of you. Congratulations.
ZAHN: Tell us a little bit of the part you play, the part of a mother whose son comes home and tells you that he's going to marry a white woman.
ANNA DEVEARE SMITH, ACTOR/PLAYWRIGHT: I play Anthony Hopkins' mother in a flashback.
ZAHN: OK. Let's look at a scene to give people a better reference point now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: And when is the happy day?
WENTWORTH MILLER, ACTOR: June 14.
SMITH: Have you told her? You plan on bringing her home for dinner?
MILLER: I told her my parents are dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Is there any part of you that's empathized with what she was going through?
SMITH: With the mother? Oh, yes. I mean, because -- I mean, this is my son -- Wentworth plays my son and in losing him, I'm not only losing something that's very precious to me -- he's my favorite child -- I think I've worked hard to deliver him to the world, be such a fine young man as he is -- but I'm also losing him, the community is losing him. That period of American history for black Americans, the 1940s, it was really the feeling that if you have gifts -- and he has major gifts, intellectual and physical and everything else -- that those gifts belonged in the community. And so he's deserting us. He's deserting me. But he's also deserting us. And I had -- I had no problem getting to that.
ZAHN: Wentworth, was there a part of you that found this character of Coleman Silk difficult to play? Because he was such an unsympathetic character.
MILLER: Well, I mean, first and foremost, I don't think that there is a defense for passing, of course. I mean, it's a bold and arrogant and ultimately destructive choice that this character makes.
But he's also a man who's been put into a box, and he's been told very specifically, This is who you are and who you are not. This is what you can and cannot do. And he's suffocating as a result.
And we've all been in that kind of box. You know, religion has put us there. Personal politics. Gender. So, while his story is not sympathetic, I think he is certainly relatable.
ZAHN: Sure. But, during that period of history, you had some 150,000 people who went through this process of passing, where they identified themselves as white, just to assimilate themselves in society.
SMITH: Which is easier, you know, I think. It would seem to me it would be harder. But I think, you know, given what Wentworth has said, it's probably easier than that feeling of suffocating and you could get some benefits.
I have an aunt who passed as Spanish. That was her words and it was politically incorrect now -- but she wanted to be a dancer. She came to New York and passed. And, you know, I actually lived with her when I was in acting school in California years later. And she wasn't ashamed of it. I mean, she had a sort of a sense of -- she didn't have shame about it.
ZAHN: What's interesting about this story is people widely believe it's based on the life of a man who was once a critic for "The New York Times." Did you study his life? Did you learn more about how he lived his life?
MILLER: Not specifically, no. I'm an actor of mixed race. My father is black and my mother is white. And there were a number of things I felt I understood automatically going into this process. The only real studying I had to learn was, you know, playing the young Anthony Hopkins.
ZAHN: Now is -- is society grown up enough today to accept your mix race? I mean, clearly, you don't have to pass any more? Or is there a more subtle discrimination that goes on?
MILLER: Well, I found that, you know, the mixed race experience for me is that I have to define myself on a day-to-day basis for other people lest they define me and stick me in some category where I don't belong. ZAHN: Well, "The Human Stain" certainly exposes a lot of people for the first time to this whole concept of passing and how painful it was.
Best of luck to both of you with this new film.
ZAHN: Maybe it'll raise some consciousnesses out there.
SMITH: Or questions.
ZAHN: We like that. Good luck.
MILLER: Thank you.
ZAHN: Next, we're going to meet a Harvard librarian, a woman with two master's degrees who says she can't get a promotion because she dresses too sexy. Now she's taking the Ivy League school to court.
And why something that happened 93 million miles from Earth may giving your cell phone some major glitches today.
ZAHN: She's a Cornell grad with two master's degrees. But over the course of her nine-year career as a Harvard librarian, Desiree Goodwin says she was denied more than a dozen promotions. Among the reasons, she claims, are the way she dresses and her race.
Now, after state and federal agencies dismissed her complaint, she is suing Harvard University for race and gender discrimination.
Desiree Goodwin joins us now in this exclusive interview.
Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
DESIREE GOODWIN, PLAINTIFF: You're welcome. Thanks.
ZAHN: So, first of, do you think you dress provocatively on the job?
GOODWIN: I really think that's a subjective thing. It really depends who's looking at me. I dress more or less like other people. I work in the student environment in a very artistic campus. So, I kind of blend in with everybody there.
ZAHN: Do other female librarians dress the way you do?
GOODWIN: Some young women do, I would say.
ZAHN: All right. Well let's talk about why you were repeatedly passed over for promotions. Your supervisor told you what?
GOODWIN: Well, she just said that I'll never get a job at Harvard. And I asked why. And she said that I'd applied for too many jobs and that she knows someone who is a very high-ranking librarian at Weidener who said that she would never consider hiring me for anything.
ZAHN: At what point did the issue of your dress come up in those conversations?
GOODWIN: At what point -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
ZAHN: Did the issue of the way you dress come up as something you needed to be concerned about.
GOODWIN: In that conversation. It was two years after I had started working there. And -- actually, it was about seven years I started working there. And two years after I had been working with her.
ZAHN: We're all on our jobs evaluated on a daily basis. I mean, I think of the kind memos I get on a daily basis from my bosses. What was the downside for you to take into consideration what she was saying about your dress -- if you knew it was going to ensure your rise at Harvard in the library system.
It was late to tell me this after I was applying. I applied a number of times. I would have appreciated if she had given me this advice earlier if she thought it was a problem. She had already been working with me for nearly two years.
I guess what I'm not clear on if you feel other female librarians dress the way you do on the job, it sounds to me you're suggesting this is more of an issue of race than anything else.
GOODWIN: I think so. Other people might not agree, but I personally think that a more conservative standard was applied to me. It's a very liberal environment. It's a casual work environment. And I think they were applying a more conservative standard to me as a black woman.
ZAHN: Desiree, let me close with what Harvard University is saying about your suit. Quote, "the case is without merit. Genders and race are not factors and the fact that the independent agencies established to investigate these type of charges, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Massachusetts Committee Against Discrimination, dismissed this case indicates how this suit ultimately will be resolved." They're basically telling you this is a frivolous lawsuit.
GOODWIN: OK. Well, all I can say is that it isn't frivolous to me. I worked very hard. I have 17 years of experience, I have two master's degrees, I have teaching experience. I taught freshman English at Boston College. I had contributed a lot to my workplace, developing a Web page, writing Web bibliographies. I have gone above and beyond the call of duty helping other departments. I've tried to mentor people, the student workers, particularly. If I was given the opportunity to advance, I would work very hard to mentor staff, as well, but I haven't been given that opportunity. ZAHN: Well, we're going to have to leave it here this evening and we will continue to follow this. We appreciate you telling us your side of the story.
GOODWIN: Thank you.
ZAHN: And, of course our audience now has heard Harvard's side of the story, so they can come to their own conclusions this evening.
So what exactly is the connection between dress and success or lack of it? John Malloy is the author of the "Dress for Success" series of books. He joins us tonight from Orlando, Florida. Always good to see you. Welcome, sir.
JOHN MALLOY, AUTHOR, "DRESS FOR SUCCESS": Nice to be with you.
ZAHN: Is it possible in the average American workplace for a woman to be accomplished and dress sexy?
MALLOY: No, it isn't. Everyone makes a choice when she gets up in the morning, bedroom or boardroom. She can't dress for both. And frankly, if she dresses in a manner that's sexy, and the young lady you were just speaking to is right, it is a subjective judgment, but they're awesome objective criteria. If people think she dresses sexily, particularly the men, she is not going to get promoted.
ZAHN: So has much changed in tolerance levels over the last 10, 15 years for women in the workforce as far as their look is concerned?
MALLOY: A great deal has changed. But one thing that hasn't changed is men's perception of women. Often you see a woman -- and I see it all the time -- women in very conservative suits with short skirts, and the women say I'm conservatively dressed, I'm appropriately dressed. Nine out of 10 men say sexy, and it just doesn't work. Women can't make up the rules for the men. You have to take the world as it is and deal with it.
ZAHN: Let's talk about how women perceive other women, not just themselves. That is a problem, is it not, across the country?
MALLOY: It's a major problem. In fact, if a woman dresses sexy in the office, she's apt to get more problems from the other woman than she will from the men. But the men won't promote her and the women will actually sabotage her.
ZAHN: And what is it that we have learned by a lot of corporations doing away with their lax dress guidelines on Fridays?
MALLOY: Well, the reason they did away with them is they didn't work. By the way, if I were to come up with a male chauvinist plot to destroy women's careers, it would be a relaxed dress code. You see, women have to, because they don't have the authority of being large and having a deep voice and being a traditional power figure. They have to wear things and adopt an attitude which says I'm competent and I'm powerful, and anything that interferes with that is going to hurt their careers. ZAHN: And men can pretty much wear what they've been wearing for the last 50 years or so. Right?
MALLOY: You see the uniform, it's a uniform and nobody kids about it. Seventy percent of the people at one time in this country in white collar jobs went to work dressed casually. At the very same time, over 70 percent of the people making $150,000 a year, at least the men, wore suits.
ZAHN: So do you think this case at Harvard is much to do about nothing? You heard what Harvard said about it.
MALLOY: Well, I can't tell about this case. I don't know the details of this case, and it would be unfair of me to comment. But generally, if your coworkers and if your boss thinks you're dressing improperly, change. I mean, you can't fight the system. If you fight the system, you're going to lose.
ZAHN: John Malloy, good of you to drop by, as you head into the weekend here, sir. Thanks.
MALLOY: My pleasure.
ZAHN: For your thoughts tonight.
Cell phones acting up today, or your pager, or even your television reception? It could be the sun. We'll explain what is going on.
And the sons of Princess Diana give her butler an earful for his tell-all book.
ZAHN: Wherever you live on Earth, it's storming. Not clouds, rain perhaps, but the planet is being bombarded by the remnants of a solar storm and it's interfering with some electronic communications, including airline radio traffic, and has the potential to hit your cell phone, too. But to put it into plain English tonight, I'm joined by none other than astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson of the American Museum of Natural History. How fitting you should make your maiden voyage on our new set on a night when you have all these disturbances going on. Is the worst over?
NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON, ASTROPHYSICIST: The universe, you know, twitches every now and then, and we've got to take care of that. Yes, the worst is over. We were hit by this blob of solar plasma this afternoon. And I did receive a few phone calls from people at my office complaining that their cell phone had gone off. But I didn't really believe them, I said, check your battery first, before you start blaming the cosmos.
ZAHN: Ours just all go out at the same places in New York City. We have these dead zones, 20, 30 places over the city.
TYSON: Don't blame the cosmos for a lot of that. ZAHN: Exactly. We have some great pictures.
ZAHN: ... of some of the activity going now on the Sun's surface, as the cause of all this. Why don't you walk us through what we're looking at here?
TYSON: Sure. Sure. What we've got is what we call coronal mass ejection. And the Sun is an extremely -- Sun is an extremely active place. It has magnetic fields tangled in with its gaseous material, and sometimes they burst through the surface of the star itself. And when that happens and when it's aimed at Earth, one of these blobs moves through interplanetary space and hits us about two days later.
ZAHN: How often does this happen, then?
TYSON: Well, the Sun does this in every direction. The ones that matter are the ones that actually head towards us. Normally it happens during what we call solar max, about every 11 years the activity of the Sun rises and you get these all the time.
Right now it's three and a half years after solar max, so that's a little worrisome that you have something this intense that far away from when it should have been. So we're a little worried about that.
But what you do is go north this weekend, because these particles that come from the sun they get trapped by earth's magnetic field and spiral in and they render the atmosphere a glow and you get the northern lights, aurora borealis. It's a good excuse to look north.
ZAHN: We have to watch that show on TV. Let's look at some historical footage of storms in the past.
ZAHN: Just give us a perspective on what we're looking at.
TYSON: Well, with these, by the way, we call them storms because there's a new branch of NASA that describes what's going on on the surface of the sun, and we call it space weather.
This looks like it's from the Soho satellite (ph). And you see a time lapsed image of storms of flares bursting forth from the solar surface. This is in a special wave length of light that shows where it's hotter and where it's cooler compared with just visible light. You would never notice this in visible light.
ZAHN: Is there anything you can do to minimize the damage from these storms?
TYSON: Well, not as a per -- you can work in the basement with a windowless office.
ZAHN: Oh, great. Well, we'll head on down there now. TYSON: No, satellites, for example. When these particles reach Earth we have so many communication satellites in orbit around Earth, that these particles can create currents that short circuit the boards and knockout cell phone service and other kinds of telecommunications.
And here we are with the best tools available to monitor the sun, yet we are more susceptible than ever, given how much bear electronics is exposed up there. You don't want to do space walks during this time as well.
ZAHN: And how far away is the satellite from the sun's surface?
TYSON: If it got too close it would just vaporize.
ZAHN: It wouldn't be there.
TYSON: In this animation what you see is the plasma moving past.
ZAHN: But how close is it?
TYSON: It depends on which satellite that, in particular, was. But there's these synchronous orbits you can set up where it can always communicate with the Earth while it's looking at the sun. And it's far enough away so that it's just fine.
ZAHN: It has a way of making us feel very insignificant, doesn't it, doctor?
TYSON: It is, the whole Earth would fit inside one of the burst points on the surface of the sun. We're just a speck on a speck in the speck in the cosmos.
ZAHN: Doctor, thank you for dropping by.
TYSON: Thank you.
ZAHN: Princess Diana's butler has been in the spotlight this week, now he is the target of a royal tongue lashing from none other than Prince William and Prince Harry. We'll tell you what they had to say.
ZAHN: And unprecedented move today from the late Princess Diana's sons, Princes William and Harry. They actually issued a statement accusing their mother's former butler of quote, "a cold and overt betrayal."
Excerpts from the former butler Paul Burrell's new book "A Royal Duty" appeared in "The Daily Mirror" as well as in "People" magazine. And joining me to talk about the latest battle royale is Larry Hackett, the executive editor of "People" magazine. How are you tonight?
LARRY HACKETT, "PEOPLE": Good, Paula, how are you?
ZAHN: Good. What is with the timing of this?
HACKETT: Because they see this story getting out of control. This is ripping the family apart. This is all that people are talking about in Britain and they are playing the last card they have, which is the boys. If there is anybody who has sympathy with the British public is the boys. And if they say, they have been betrayed, that we knew our mother better than Paul did, it is a chance to get him on the defensive and to stop this.
ZAHN: Let's put up on the screen more of what they had to say in their statement. Quote, "We can not believe that Paul who entrusted with so much could abuse his position in such a cold an overt manner. We ask Paul, please bring these revelations to an end." Is that going to have any effect on Paul Burrell?
HACKETT: Well, he's already been defensive. He has said he doesn't see a need to apologize, but he feels bad about what he's don to the boys. And clearly, he now has to figure out how to keep them in his stead.
His entire package has been, I'm speaking for the princess and also for the boys. I was close to the boys. I had them over to the house after she died and I gave them things. His entire currency is his closeness to the family. If they feel betrayed by him. And also, they say, he has betrayed their mother and who knows better than them about what their mother wants. He's clearly going to be on the defensive. So, this is a game of gaining public sympathy.
ZAHN: But the fact is, given what the prevalent British views are right now, all this does is sell his book.
HACKETT: Well, it does, but it also stops him. It's clear at the end of the book, that Paul Burrell has other things up his sleeve, after all, he worked for the Princess for 18 years. There has to be other letters somewhere tucked away that he may have and they see this as being something they want to stop right now.
ZAHN: Let's put on the screen what Mr. Burrell said after the princes' comment became public. "Following the collapse of my trial, no one from the royal family contacted me or said sorry. Neither do I say sorry for writing this book for which I am extremely proud."
HACKETT: He has shown his true colors here, which is he is furious over what happened. He was arrested for having stolen, supposedly, Diana's things. It took more than a year for the queen to remember that he had told her he was going to be keeping them. So he clearly -- vengeance is part of this.
Now, it will remain to be seen whether or not him being vengeful on one side and the boys being hurt on the other side, who wins that game. I would have to say the boys have an upper hand in that kind of thing. The royal family realizes the boys are the last card to play, to stop this. If this doesn't work, this will go on forever.
ZAHN: Plus, you've got behind the scenes a major chess game going on with the royal family, right?
HACKETT: Absolutely, the book is rather complicated. They paint a very, very complicated view of how these relationships work. On the one hand, she saw her father-in-law as someone who hurt her terribly with the letters about Camilla and about how she was responsible for Charles going back to Camilla.
On the other hand, she liked him. Her brother has been drawn into this with the letter that he wrote that is being seen over there as being incredibly heartless. He refused to let her stay at the home. He said, I hope you get help for you mental health. I am no longer upset about your fickle friendships. I mean, everyone is being drawn in and tarred by these letters. So, this whole thing has to stop.
ZAHN: Is there a statue of limitations on this?
HACKETT: Absolutely not, this could go on forever, absolutely go on forever. I mean, this is the one woman who captured the imagination of the British public and the world public for the past 50 years. There will always be people who doubt what happened and they are trying their hardest to see if they can make it stop. I don't think they can.
ZAHN: Great fodder for "People" magazine isn't it?
ZAHN: Larry, good to see you.
HACKETT: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: Twice in a week I got to visit with you. Have a good weekend.
We want to thank you all for being with us tonight. We'll be back here same time, same place on Monday night. We hope you all have a really good weekend. Again, thanks for dropping by here. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.
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Administration Losing Control; Princess Diana's Son's Say Book Is A Betrayal>