PAULA ZAHN NOW
Interviews With Senator Joseph Biden, Senator Trent Lott; Bill Clinton Makes Presence Known in Presidential Race; Concorde Takes Its Final Trip Across Atlantic Tomorrow
Aired October 23, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: 35 attacks a day against U.S. troops in Iraq. Who is behind them? The Pentagon searches for a solution. Does the answer lie with new technology?
As nine Democrats battle it out for the nomination, Bill Clinton increasingly makes his presence felt. What's his agenda? Will he help or hurt his party's chances of winning back the White House?
And for a quarter-century, it was the pinnacle of jet-set travel. Now it's destined for a museum. Our Richard Quest takes the last flight of the Concorde.
Good evening. Welcome. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Also ahead: a medical breakthrough that could save thousands of lives, a simple, inexpensive blood test to predict heart attacks.
And why are so many men this fall switching off their TV sets? We're going to look at what's behind the drastic drop in prime-time ratings.
Plus, a story of devotion and determination, how a father gave up everything to find a cure for the illness that was killing his children.
Also: the Johnson & Johnson heir who landed in legal trouble by exposing the lives of his super-rich friends on videotape.
First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
Federal agents swooped down today on 61 Wal-Mart stores in 21 states, arresting some 250 suspected illegal immigrants working on contracted cleaning crews. Authorities also searched company headquarters in Arkansas, all part of what they call Operation Rollback.
The trial of the other D.C. area sniper suspect, Lee Boyd Malvo, will start as scheduled November 10. The prosecution wanted a one- month delay to complete a mental health evaluation of Malvo. The judge said it's too late to change all of the arrangements that have already been made.
And no probe into the leak of that memo from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. He now says it was probably released by mistake. In the memo, Rumsfeld expressed dissatisfaction with the progress of the war on terror.
Another American soldier died today in an ambush in Iraq, while U.S. troops apparently prevented a separate attack from taking place. The increasing attacks against U.S. troops are "In Focus" tonight.
Earlier, I spoke about it with Senator Joseph Biden, the top Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee.
I started off by asking him who he thinks is responsible for the escalating violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Well, I think it's a multiple of sources. I think it's probably mostly the old Fedayeen, the old Saddam loyalists. But I do think, now that we are there, the rest of the sort of terrorist networks are hoping to be able to bog us down, as they say.
My instinct and my information is that it's mostly, mostly, indigenous former Saddam loyalists who are most responsible, with increasing degree...
ZAHN: So what can we do about it?
BIDEN: Well, I think we can do a couple things.
One, I think we do need more troops. I know everybody keeps saying we don't need more troops. General Abizaid says we don't need more troops. And the second thing we have to do, Paula, is we have to more rapidly internationalize this operation, so it's just not the U.S. face on it. And it looks like the president has finally made a U-turn on that, heading in the direction of attempting to do that. But we're behind. We've got a way to catch up. But there are some of things we could and should be doing.
ZAHN: Let's talk about another approach that "The New York Times" reported on today.
ZAHN: And that is the idea of using new technologies to go after these attackers. And one of the things being looked at is a tethered blimp that you are seeing on the screen right now here. Is the U.S. military grabbing at straws here?
BIDEN: No, I think the U.S. military is right to do that. But we need more on the ground. We need more human intelligence. And that means we have to integrate the Iraqis into this process more rapidly than we've been able to do.
I'm very familiar with that technology, because we used versions of it to try to deal with cross-border smuggling of drugs and the like. And it's very useful. And I think we should pursue that track. But it's not -- that, in and of itself, will not get the job done. ZAHN: On to the race for the presidency. In a meeting with reporters yesterday, you talked about the need for your fellow Democratic candidates to have a more coherent, grown-up foreign policy. Are you unhappy with what you are hearing on the campaign trail?
BIDEN: Well, the context of that question was whether or not I thought that you could be for having gone into Iraq and against supporting funding for our troops in Iraq at the moment. And I said, well, that's not much of a coherent policy.
I do think that the Democratic Party must and will produce a candidate who can demonstrate to the American people that he is capable of dealing with the security needs of the country and not merely being critical -- and there's much to be critical of -- of this administration's handling of security policy.
ZAHN: Do you wish you were running?
BIDEN: I'm happy I'm not running. I wish my ideas were ones that would be accepted. And so, in that sense, yes.
But I'm confident. There are some really very classy people in this field. And I'm confident they will be able to match up their foreign policy credentials against this president.
ZAHN: Senator Biden, appreciate your spending a little time with us this evening. Thank you for dropping by.
BIDEN: Thanks, Paula. Appreciate it.
ZAHN: Time now to get another "In Focus" perspective on the increasing attacks against U.S. troops in Iraq. And for that, we turn to Republican Senator Trent Lott of Mississippi, a member of the Intelligence Committee.
We asked him what the U.S. is failing to do in Iraq now that might reduce some violence against Americans and Iraqis.
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: I think it's important to emphasize, first of all, that we are doing a lot of good things and a lot of the right things. I think we need to continue to work to make sure that we have the right mix of forces there.
But we need to continue also to try and deal with some of the human needs, water, electricity, try to get their economy going again. People that are not getting water, that are miserable at night, that are hungry, that don't have a job, they are more inclined to cause mischief.
ZAHN: But you raised the critical question of the right mix of forces. And you really mentioned the need for more M.P.s. I have been in e-mail contact with the mother of a tank commander whose son now is an M.P. And she describes an excruciating detail a kid she says that is no more trained to do that than any other 100 jobs that he hasn't been trained to do. He goes door to door doing searches.
And there are some 40,000 soldiers in Iraq lacking the heavy-duty armor they need. How is that happening? Why is that happening?
LOTT: First, most of our troops are dual-trained. They are capable of doing more than one assignment. And from what I have seen of tank commanders, they are usually very capable men and women that can do almost anything with just a little bit of information. We certainly need to make sure they have the equipment they need.
And the money that we just are in the process of passing through the Congress that's already passed the House and Senate would provide more funds for things like better-enforced Humvees, I guess better protection jackets.
ZAHN: Senator, let's talk about the timing of this. There was much attention paid to the leaked Rumsfeld memo, where he refers to this process as a long, hard slog. At what time or at what point does that become a huge political liability for President Bush?
LOTT: I think what Secretary Rumsfeld was speaking of -- and he spoke to a large number of senators yesterday, a bipartisan group -- about that memo, in which he said, look, we've always said that this war on terrorism is not going to be quick. It's not going to be easy. It's going to take time. It's going to take some different kind of thinking from what we've been used to. But if we are not fighting terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan or the Philippines, wherever it is, we are liable to be having to fight them right here at home.
ZAHN: So what you're telling me, Senator, even if this is a long, drawn-out process, it doesn't hurt the president politically?
LOTT: I don't think it will in the end, because we will be showing progress in the war on terror and in Iraq.
But, Paula, that's not the most important thing. We have a job to do here. He has a job to do here. He has to do the best he can, based on what he knows at the time and what we are finding out, based on the intelligence he has, which we know has not been as reliable as it should have been. And I think, if the president continues to lead, show strength and do the right thing, then the politics will take care of themselves. If not, his conscience will be clear.
ZAHN: Senator Lott, thank you for dropping by this evening. Very much appreciate your time.
LOTT: My pleasure, Paula. Thank you.
ZAHN: And now we go straight to Baghdad, where our own Ben Wedeman is standing by.
Ben, I think you were able to hear what both of the senators had to say. What's the perspective from there about the spiraling violence?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've heard from Ricardo Sanchez, the head of coalition forces in Iraq, that there has been a spike in attacks. And, certainly, today was no exception.
There was one incident in the town of Baquba, which is about 40 miles northeast of Baghdad, in which one soldier from the 4th Infantry Division was killed and two were wounded when they drove by a roadside bomb. This is almost a daily occurrence. On the other hand, you had another sort of event just south of Baghdad. A local person went to the U.S. military there, gave them a tip-off about a car that was driving around in the area that had bombs.
The military police were able to stop that car. They blew it up. They arrested two men who had been in that car. Those two men were able to lead the military police and soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division to an arms cache. And this really underscores what we have heard from officials here, that, gradually, slowly, local people are beginning to give them tip-offs that's allowing them to arrest people, to prevent attacks. So it really is, Paula, a mixed picture.
ZAHN: Meanwhile, there is an expectation that these attacks will continue, right?
WEDEMAN: No one is expecting the attacks to slow down.
Really, for instance, right now, it's 3:00 in the morning in Baghdad and I'm hearing machine gun fire in the distance behind me. So there's no expectation that there's going to be a sudden drop-off. There is a resistance to the U.S. presence here, mainly in the Sunni areas.
But we've seen more attacks on U.S. forces in the Shiite south. It really is a long-haul political process that's going to involve refurbishing the infrastructure, getting people jobs, getting people fed. And that's going to take time. But if that succeeds, there is a chance there will be eventually some semblance of peace here in Iraq -- Paula.
ZAHN: Ben, you somewhat nonchalantly described the gunfire you're hearing the background. Is that because this is sort of the normal course of action at this time in the morning, Baghdad time?
WEDEMAN: It appears to be the case. It really is an ordinary event for us sitting in this hotel to hear in the evening and throughout the night occasional bursts of gunfire.
It -- now, we never know what's going on. At a time like this, it's not really safe to venture out in the streets. But it could be celebratory fire. It's Thursday night, the beginning of the weekend here in Iraq. It may be people just having a good time and shooting off a few rounds. On the other hand, it might be criminals going about their ordinary business. It's hard to say. But we have become very accustomed to this sort of thing -- Paula.
ZAHN: Sorry to hear that. Ben Wedeman, thank you very much for the update.
The power of a former president -- as the Democratic hopefuls battle for the 2004 nomination, how does the considerable presence of Bill Clinton affect the race?
Also, the story of one father's sacrifice, persistence and courage, all to save his babies.
And it is cheap, simple and revolutionary. We're going to learn more about a new medical test that may save thousands of lives.
ZAHN: Bill Clinton is in the news again. Today, he announced that his foundation and four drug companies will make AIDS drugs available in Caribbean and African countries at a fraction of the usual cost.
But the former president is never far from domestic politics. He was quoted today urging Democrats not to be too liberal if they want to win back the White House. And, recently, he shared an Iowa stage with some of the Democratic presidential candidates. Some world argue, he stole the show.
Here to talk about the Democrats in Bill Clinton's shadow is Democratic analyst Carlos Watson, along with Democratic pollster and strategist Doug Schoen.
Good to see both of you.
ZAHN: So, does Bill Clinton help these candidates at this stage or hurt them?
CARLOS WATSON, DEMOCRATIC ANALYST: I think he helps some, he hurts others. Certainly, Wesley Clark, who is seen as a Clinton favorite, is helped every time Clinton is on the stage.
ZAHN: And why does he get helped by that?
WATSON: I think he's helped for three reasons -- one, fund- raising. Fund raisers look out and say, Clinton is still behind this guy. And I think more people are willing to write checks.
Two, there's more media exposure and, again, the link between the two of those are brought up. And, three, don't forget, Bill Clinton is still the single most popular figure among Democratic voters. And to the extent any of that is transferable -- and that's a question -- I think Wesley Clark benefits from that.
ZAHN: And, Quickly, who does he hurt, so we can hear your list? WATSON: I think he potentially hurts Howard Dean early on. If you're Howard Dean, you'd rather Clinton was not involved in the primary and that he got involved, if you are Howard Dean, after someone had been chosen.
ZAHN: Do you agree with any of this?
DOUG SCHOEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think that, more generally, Clinton helps the Democrats, because the contrast between the economic record of the Clinton administration vs. Bush I and Bush II is so strong and so compelling in arguing for Democratic policies, that I think the Democrats are enhanced every time Clinton compares his record to George W.'s.
ZAHN: But don't you think that's a little bit of a diffused message at this stage of the campaign?
SCHOEN: Well, there are nine candidates.
And I think that, when you have nine candidates -- and if you go back to '91, there was a diffused message when Bill Clinton emerged. So I think that that's natural. But we have, in General Clark and in Howard Dean, Joe Lieberman, John Edwards, Dick Gephardt, we have strong forces who, when a nominee emerges, I think will have a compelling message.
ZAHN: Is this about helping these other Democratic candidates now or is this about being Hillary Clinton's front man?
WATSON: Actually, there is even something else, Paula, we have to talk about. Don't forget, he's the youngest ex-president who served two terms ever, right? He is still in his mid-50s. And so here's a guy who has got lots of energy.
And remember what happened the last time we had a super young ex- president, Teddy Roosevelt. He not only got involved. He ran for office again. And he only ran once. If he hadn't died in 1919, a lot of people believe he would have run in 1920 and would have won again.
ZAHN: Ah, but you still haven't answered my question, the Hillary Clinton question.
WATSON: He's certainly looking to help Hillary, too. Do I think Hillary runs in 2004, when all is said and done, when evening washes? No. But is he looking to help her and are they always being strategic? Of course they are.
ZAHN: What about that?
SCHOEN: She's ruled out running in 2004. She's made it clear she's going to run for reelection.
ZAHN: And you believe that.
SCHOEN: Yes. She's done 31 events in 52 days in New York. She's consolidating her base in New York state. And I do believe it, yes.
ZAHN: Do you think these Democrats have learned a lesson -- I think you hinted at this earlier -- about perhaps Al Gore learning a lesson about not deploying Bill Clinton often enough?
WATSON: Well, remember, there's a mixed message here. And to be fair, there's a mixed record.
On one hand, you can look at Al Gore and say, doggonit, in Kentucky and Tennessee and a bunch of other places that Clinton won once or twice in '92 and '96, Gore lost by not employing Clinton more. But, on the other hand, you might look very recently to Gray Davis and say, Clinton came out, tried to put his arm around Gray Davis. When all said and done, Gray Davis didn't only lose. He got beaten badly.
ZAHN: Doug, you get the last word.
SCHOEN: Paula, I agree there is a message. Had Gore run on Bill Clinton's record, he'd be president today. Gray Davis got 44 percent, when 30 percent approved. So Bill Clinton has long coattails, a compelling record, and he can help the Democrats.
ZAHN: Doug and Carlos, thank you for joining us in tandem tonight.
ZAHN: We're going to take a short break here.
Lots of trouble in TV land. Why are more and more American men tuning in -- or actually out in prime time? It's got the networks worried. We'll tell you why.
And he gave up everything to find a cure for his kids. We're going to meet a man whose efforts not only saved his own children's lives, but gave hope to hundreds of others. He'll tell his own dramatic story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CROWLEY, FATHER: And the doctor had told us earlier that day that Megan would live to be two. And she was 15 months old at the time. He said: "Go home and enjoy your time with your daughter. There's nothing you could do to change it. I'm very sorry."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Still to come tonight: a look inside the world of the super-rich children of the super rich unveiled by an heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune. We'll see why it's gotten him into so much legal trouble.
And getting ready for the final flight of the Concorde and the end of supersonic airline travel.
Also, major medical news: a new simple heart test that could save thousands of lives.
But before we get to all of that, the story of one father's devotion to his children and his determination to save them. Most parents would do almost anything for their kids, but how far would you go? Would you move to a different city, change your career, start a company?
Well, meet John Crowley. In one fell swoop, his fate, his career and his livelihood was changed forever.
J. CROWLEY: Yes, Megan. You think that's funny. You're smiling. Yes?
Megan's first year of life, she was completely normal. It was about nine months that we noticed she wasn't doing the things that she should be doing to reach that next milestone, pulling up in a crib, trying to take her first steps.
AILEEN CROWLEY, MOTHER: I couldn't understand why she wasn't doing these things. I said, oh, maybe because she's a girl.
ZAHN (voice-over): John and Aileen Crowley, then parents of 2- year-old John, didn't have much experience with baby girls. But they did know something was wrong with theirs.
J. CROWLEY: That's when we went to the pediatrician with these concerns. And then he referred us to a neurologist.
ZAHN: After several blood tests and biopsies, doctors diagnosed Megan with Pompe disease, a rare neuromuscular disease caused by a defective or missing enzyme. Without it, a sticky substance builds up in the muscles and they degenerate, the prognosis, grim.
J. CROWLEY: In the course of one day, you go through the shock, the grief, the denial. In that meeting, the doctor had told us earlier that day that Megan wouldn't live to be 2. And she was 15 months old at the time. And he told us there was little or no research going on. Six months after her diagnosis, she came down with a pneumonia and had to be put on a ventilator in the hospital.
And her heart stopped beating. And she stopped breathing three times in three days. When she refused to give up, that's when we both looked at her in the intensive care unit that night and said: "OK, kid, you want to fight, we'll fight, too."
ZAHN: They were also fighting for their second son, Patrick, who was diagnosed at three months old. Megan and Patrick's health quickly spiralled downhill. They couldn't sit up, eat, walk or breathe on their own. With no treatment to turn to, John quit his job as a financial consultant to start his own company devoted to creating a treatment.
J. CROWLEY: Megan, she knew what daddy was doing. Even from the time she was 2 or 3 years old, she knew that daddy was working with some other great people to help find her special medicine.
ZAHN: He found promising research. But despite $27 million and a growing staff, John needed the muscle of a large drug company. He partnered with Genzyme, a biotech company. It was already working on treatments.
But, still, drug testing and approval takes time, the one thing Patrick and Megan didn't have.
J. CROWLEY: Their muscles were getting weaker and weaker every day. Every day was a lost chance to make them better.
A. CROWLEY: It was incredibly frustrating. I kept saying, can't you just steal it and bring it home? But that doesn't work that way.
ZAHN: Initially, the kids didn't meet the strict criteria for the first drug trials. Then, ironically, the career John had created to help his kids got in the way. Hospitals wouldn't allow his children into subsequent trials, citing a conflict of interest. So, with the clock ticking, John stepped down.
J. CROWLEY: It's like having the ball ready to cross the goal line and you just keep trying and trying and trying. And next thing you know, it's fourth down and you've got one more shot at it.
ZAHN: Their last shot came from Dr. Deborah Lynn Day Salvador (ph), a genetic researcher, who finally designed a trial that the Crowleys could participate in. The kids would finally get their dad's special medicine.
J. CROWLEY: That's it?
We finally pressed the button. It was so emotional. It was just an amazingly quiet, tense moment right after the enzyme started to flow. So it was an emotional day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Megan, you are in room three right here on your right.
ZAHN: Now they get their infusion every two weeks. And it's working.
For 5-year-old Patrick, it's been a slow journey, but for 6-year- old Megan, great strides. Her heart, once twice the size it should have been, has shrunk to normal. She can now sit up, raise her hands, smile, even dream of a future as a teacher, a dancer, even a nurse.
I remember she was sitting in the bed there in the hospital. And I wrapped my arms around her and gave her a hug and just a kiss. And I told her, I said: "You know what, Megan? You are going to grow up to be an old lady now." And she just whispered in my ear and said -- she just whispered in my ear and said, "Thank you."
ZAHN: A medical breakthrough to talk about, which has the potential to save thousands of lives. You probably have heard the horror stories of people who go into emergency rooms with chest pains only to be sent home and later suffer a heart attack. But there is a simple new blood test developed at the Cleveland Clinic that could prevent that kind of tragedy.
To put it all into plain English for us tonight Dr. Eric Topol joins us. He is the chairman of the clinic's department of cardiovascular medicine. Congratulations on what appears to be a great breakthrough here, sir. What do you think this means?
DR. ERIC TOPOL, CLEVELAND CLINIC: Well, Paula, this is really a very interesting big development for understanding what's going on at the level of the artery, which is inflamed into some patients and that can lead to a crack in the artery, a heart attack or even death.
And this can be traced through and enzyme MPO, myloperoxidase. And it is really a nice advance. Dr. Stan Hazen (ph) here at Cleveland Clinic deserves considerable credit for really persevering and showing how this is better than any protein to track arturo inflammation.
ZAHN: Here's what I don't understand, how can you take a simple blood test like this and, in many ways, it's more predictive than the sophisticated tests you can run?
TOPOL: Yes, well, it's really interesting. The white cells we know, drive this inflammation process. And this is going on inside the artery wall. And what used to be, we think the action was inside the channel of the blood.
But this is in the wall of the artery where there is cholesterol built up and the white cells get angry. They are releasing this protein and the part that is -- gets into the blood is a great reflection as to whether the artery is going to go ahead and crack and cause the patient considerable trouble.
And so this is a whole new window into the process. It's drilling down, zooming in, on what's going on in the patient's heart arteries.
ZAHN: And so far your study shows this test was 95 percent accurate. So what does that mean for diagnosis of heart problems down the road? TOPOL: Well, it's not going to just be one protein, but the fact we can get a series or panel of proteins, makes our ability to differentiate risk of any individual exquisite.
So patients who we otherwise would have thought were fine, we now would know they are at risk and vice versa. This is, of course, a whole new era in medicine. Using proteins like this to gauge risk, the likes of which we've never had before.
ZAHN: Is it feasible that this would ultimately be used as a screening tool for the general public?
TOPOL: Yes, it certainly could be. It wasn't tested in this particular study like that. Another protein, C-reactive protein has been tested like that and shown to be quite useful.
So this is another way to get at the problem, because this tracks the white cell and that certainly is possible in the future that it will be used as a wide screening test. So, MPO, this particular protein, may become very commonplace for screening, as you are suggesting.
ZAHN: And once again, it could be as common as testing for cholesterol levels?
TOPOL: You bet. It could be that you get your cholesterol and a few different proteins and then you know whether you have active artery disease. And this is so different than a stress test, which is telling us about a narrowing in the artery. This is telling us of whether the process of inflammation is smoldering. Like a volcano that could erupt, that's what this protein gives us a window into.
ZAHN: And from my perspective, it's a relatively noninvasive test, like so many of those other tests folks you have to be subjected to. Well, we hope it continues to be as promising as it looks here tonight. Dr. Topol, thanks for sharing the findings of your studies with us tonight.
TOPOL: Thanks very much, Paula.
ZAHN: We're going to move on. It's causing a lot of TV executives to lose sleep, causing the network executives problem. Male viewers, in record numbers, turning off their sets in prime-time. We're going to find out with our truth squad.
And after 25 years of supersonic travel, the Concorde lands here for the very last time.
ZAHN: If you believe in numbers, something is wrong with TV this fall, lots of people just aren't watching. According to the Nielsen's, there is a drastic drop. 12 percent in the percentage of men 18 to 34 tuning in during prime time. It is a key demographic and costs the networks, or could cost the networks down the road, a lot of money. To find out why we've sent in the truth squad where we ask Donnie Deutch, Chairman and CEO of Deutch Incorporated, where have all the men gone?
DONNIE DEUTCH, CEO DEUTCH INC.: It's not only the men, but viewers overall. It's very interesting. It think it was a seminal moment on Fox on Monday night.
Basically a lot of theories had been everybody is watching baseball. Baseball was up 50 percent. The other networks were down, because Fox was running baseball and they were promoting all their shows. So now, here comes "Joe Millionaire," here comes "Skin," hugely promoted on Baseball. Guess what, the viewership was off like 60 percent on "Joe Millionaire." It was a huge, huge thud.
What does that say. It says maybe A, people are turning off to "reality shows". Basically people are pulling back from TV in general. And that's a scary thing.
ZAHN: Well, how do we know that? Someone could have Tivo'd it.
DEUTCH: No, no, no. This is across the board stuff and network executives are really, really worried. I think what it is and I think there will be good news here, is that there's a lack of quality programming. And viewers and consumers saying, you know what, time out, maybe reality TV was artificially propping things up. We want great shows.
And to me, out of adversity comes positive things. And hopefully that's what's going to happen.
ZAHN: Positive things? What can you imagine will come next?
DEUTCH: I think basically, a lot of the programs are going to say, what was the last great sitcom we had? "Everybody Loves Raymond" whatever it was, we need great new dramas, we need great new stuff, particularly interesting reality TV.
What was the lesson here? You give people something new, they'll come to it. Now, that's starting to get played. What's the new iteration, people want fresh and different. Or if it's the old formats it better well be damn good.
ZAHN: Do you see these men coming back? Because, it could be years before we get sitcoms the quality you're talking.
DEUTCH: Men watching television, men is the hardest audience. Historically, men watch sports. As far as TV, that's the only kind of mass viewing of men. Particularly men 18 to 24, they grew up playing video games, Internet, all kinds of other alternatives. That's going to be a tough one. I don't know where you go with that.
ZAHN: How does this affect advertising? DEUTCH: It's interesting, advertising, the irony is, is that advertisers have been paying huger rates than ever. The up-fronts this year were record numbers, even though the eye balls keep shrinking.
ZAHN: This is where you buy the time well in advance of the program.
DEUTSCH: And even though the numbers were dwindling, I think finally advertisers are going to say, time-out. Something has to got to give. And I think the networks are very worried.
ZAHN: So the networks are going to be put in a position where they have to give time back to these advertisers to make up for the shortfall.
DEUTSCH: Networks start to give make-goods (ph). You know, then they sell a show -- when they sell a show they promise they're going to do this kind of rating. When it doesn't do it, they've got to give you the free commercials or some form of make-goods.
Something's going to give. There's something very, very, very frightening rumbling underneath here.
ZAHN: I'm still having trouble understanding, though. What is the appreciable difference between "Joe Millionaire" this year and last year?
DEUTSCH: Well, to me it's zero or zero. I mean, personally. But I think the appreciative difference is it's not new anymore. It was a novelty. Eighteen million people tuned into the first episode last year, 6 million less the last year. And I think viewers are saying, You know what? Time out. You can't keep giving me the same stuff. With the exception of maybe of "American Idol," I think a lot of these reality shows are going to come under a lot fire.
ZAHN: One thing we haven't addressed is the possibility that maybe the measurement of these audiences is off.
DEUTSCH: You know what? A lot of the network people...
ZAHN: It could be Nielsen's fault.
DEUTSCH: Nielsen is screwing up and now they're not wiring homes with that have all the new technology and that's where the heavy viewers are and whatnot. I mean, there could be a little of that.
But you also have to step back and say, What's on the tube right now? And with the exception of wonderful things like PAULA ZAHN NOW, it's kind of limited.
ZAHN: Oh, thank you, Donny.
Final question. About 18-34 -- why are they so darn important?
DEUTSCH: They're important because when you think about the big spend categories -- beer, soft drinks, fast food, movies -- that's who's buying those products, you know? And guys -- the cane guys like me were just not spending the same kind of money anymore.
ZAHN: Well, we will take any of them that have fled the broadcast networks right here in this time slot.
DEUTSCH: Great to be here.
ZAHN: Always good to see you. Thanks for dropping by.
And what is it like to grow up with all the money in the world? An heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune knows and has turned documentary cameras loose on his wealthy friends to expose their lives to the rest of the world. Now he's getting sued.
And our Richard Quest has your ticket to the final flight of the Concorde heading for retirement at twice the speed of sound.
ZAHN: Our next guest risked friendships and legal trouble by turning a documentary camera on the lives of his friends -- and not just any friends. They are the wealthy children of the super-rich. The result -- an intimate look inside the world of people who grow up with money, lots of it.
"Born Rich" airs next Monday, October 27 at 10:00 p.m. on HBO. I am joined by its director, Jamie Johnson. He's also an heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune.
And in New Orleans tonight is S.I. Newhouse IV, a heir to the Conde Nast publishing empire. He also appears in the film.
Welcome to both of you.
So how much trouble are you in for doing this documentary?
JAMIE JOHNSON, DIRECTOR, "BORN RICH": Well, you know, it made -- it made a lot of people very anxious. It made my father extremely anxious. It made my community really anxious. And it disturbed a lot of my friend because rich people are always told from a very early age not to talk about money.
ZAHN: Well, what are they worried about? Most of this stuff is published in magazines. We sort of have a general sense of what you all are worth.
JOHNSON: Well, you would think so. But in some ways, you know, America is supposed to be a meritocracy, where everyone earns what they have. And this film really contradicts that understanding and how our society operates. So I think it makes people a little anxious.
ZAHN: S.I.. were you nervous about participating in it? If so, why?
S.I. NEWHOUSE IV, CONDE NAST HEIR: Well, not really, actually. Jamie and I are really good friends and he made it -- when he told me about the project four years ago, it sounded like a good thing. And it still does.
ZAHN: Let's talk a little about what the two of you explore in this documentary. You talk about some of the dysfunction built into these families, particularly when it comes to the issue of how parents tell their kids what they're worth. And there's a scene where you have a seen where you this young man, Josiah Hornblower, talking about one of his family's experiences.
Let's listen to this together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember when I was a little kid, my mom let me spend the day with my uncle. And he took me to Grand Central Station and he said, This is yours. It was the dumbest thing in the world to do to a kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Did any of the parents of these kids get it right?
JOHNSON: Well, you know...
NEWHOUSE: Sorry, Jamie.
ZAHN: In just helping these kids understand hat what they were born into and perhaps how they maybe needed to work down the road to earn it back.
JOHNSON: Well, I think it's important to have that happen. I think, you know, for people who were born rich, they really need to step away from the family -- their family's wealth and the power and privilege they inherited and I think they have to do something on their own for themselves. And I think when they don't, then they fall into this problem, this sense of entitlement and these issues of snobbery and I think that becomes seriously problematic.
ZAHN: S.I., do you think these really wealthy, wealthy kids we're exposed to or any more dysfunctional than the kids who have very little money?
NEWHOUSE: You know, a couple of people have asked me that already. I think --- I think they've probably got better psychiatrists to deal with the problems. But probably no more or no less problems than anybody else, actually.
ZAHN: You're not going to get a lot of sympathy out there for what you are born into. I mean, do you find that these kids...
(CROSSTALK) JOHNSON: I think there are some people who do feel guilty about it and I think guilt comes up. I know questions should come up. You know, it's only natural to ask why do I have so much when there's so many people out there who are suffering and are hungry, and, you know, I don't think we're really asking for sympathy. I just think this is a new look at a closed world, a world that hasn't been explored in this way.
ZAHN: Even your own father, Jamie, wasn't crazy about your doing this documentary. We have one scene in the film to help us better understand that family dynamic. Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: I don't want to be nervous about money or be nervous about who I am. And I feel like you're feeling nervous about this film is maybe that nervousness of who you are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you're in control of this film and I'm not. So there's a little source of nervousness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: What was the lesson you learned?
JOHNSON: Well, for me, I learned that it's important for me to go out and be as productive as I can and really do something on my own. I think also it's important to have a strong sense of responsibility to society. And I try and remember that. And I try and be as grateful as I can for all the privileges I have and the position that I'm in now.
ZAHN: Is there anything, S.I. that -- for you to complain about in your life, even though, you know, you obviously face some of the same challenges most adolescents had to face as you grew up.
NEWHOUSE: Well, I think the film -- it's a bit misleading to call myself as entitled to some of these other kids. Whatever money I have in my pocket, I get from the job I do. I'm down in New Orleans to do a job and nothing else is coming to me, really.
ZAHN: So the job, Jamie, in the end is the great equalizer here?
JOHNSON: I think it's important for people who are born rich to work. And I think that's probably the most important thing for them to remember.
ZAHN: Well, it's a fascinating look inside, talking to folks we very rarely hear, talk about what they were born into. Jamie and S.I., thank you both for joining us tonight. Good luck with the documentary.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
ZAHN: Airs next week.
NEWHOUSE: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: Our parent company here.
We take a short break. It's been a favorite of the rich and famous and a dream for many others. Now the Concorde is making its very last flight. Richard quest will be on board. Richard, how are you doing tonight?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula. They called it the rocket and tomorrow, she blasts off for the last time from Kennedy airport, and I've gotten a ticket. I'll tell you about this flight when we're back in the moment.
ZAHN: Wanted to quickly follow up on a story we showed you yesterday. Our regular contributor and "Fortune Magazine" editor at large, Andy Serwer auditioned for a slot as the back-up announcer for the New York Knicks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY SERWER: At center, 7'2", from Georgetown, number 55, Dikembe Mutombo!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Didn't quite work out for Andy. It's a good thing he kept his day job. You won't be hearing him at Madison Square Garden after all. Here's the guy who did get the job.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At center, 7'2", from Georgetown, number 55, Dikembe Mutombo! Congratulations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: It's been a fixture in the skies over New York, London and Paris for five decades and it's a sight that never fails to impress. The age of Supersonic passenger travel is over at least for now. British Airways and Air France are retiring their Concordes and the last commercial London to New York Flight landed just about three hours ago.
Richard Quest is standing by at Kennedy International Airport, where he will board the Concorde's final flight back to London tomorrow.
Richard, my question for you, who is paying for the ticket, you or CNN?
QUEST: Well, we'll work that out in the future, Paula, because I don't care! Look at the smile. Ear to ear to be actually flying on the rocket. There she is. Speedbird 002, which tomorrow will make history. The last commercial flight supersonic across the Atlantic. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST (voice-over): Fast and extremely expensive. For 27 years, Concorde has been the way to cross the Atlantic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's airborne in 26 seconds.
QUEST: Born in the 1960s, the plane was a bold attempt by Britain and France to create a new way of travel.
ROD EDDINGTON, CEO, BRITISH AIRWAYS: Concorde is a remarkable airplane and for those of us who live and work in the industry, it is truly unique. An airplane massively ahead of its time in terms of what it could do.
QUEST: Because of problems like sonic boom and noise it would be years before Concorde was allowed to fly to New York, essential for the plane's success.
DAVID FROST, TV JOURNALIST: With Concorde, you could leave New York and you could be in London in time for dinner. Now, that wasn't essential before Concorde, and now one would live without it before Concorde and now one will have to quite happily live without it after Concorde. But it was a terrific plus while it was there.
QUEST: Concorde was for the fast and the few. The ticket cost thousands of dollars. The plane only carried a hundred passengers.
LOUISE BROWN, CONCORDE FLIGHT ATTENDANT: You never say no. If you were going to say, "I'd like a glass of champagne," they'd have it straightaway.
But the Paris crash in 2000, followed by September 11, economic recession and corporate cost-cutting led B.A. and Air France to decide it was time for Concorde to go.
MIKE BANNISTER, CHIEF CONCORDE PILOT: We always knew that there would come a point when Concorde would retire. I guess it's come sooner than we anticipated.
QUEST: On tomorrow's flight, on that plane, we will be served a selection, beef or lamb for breakfast. A champagne breakfast. Three different (UNINTELLIGIBLE) champagnes. Or you can have the lobster and omelet or if you are watching your weight the Greek yogurt. Or if you are like me, you'll have the lot.
ZAHN: Well, at $6,000 a ticket you deserve the lot, Richard. We understand as we go into the final chapter of the Concorde here, the souvenir business is hopping tonight.
QUEST: Lots of people are selling souvenirs. I guarantee you by the time that plane lands in London tomorrow afternoon, it will be stripped bare. For instance, I've already taken a napkin ring. Look at. This will be worth money some time. When they sent us the ticket, they gave us a little souvenir Concorde that will be worth more. And who could resist this for Christmas in your very own Concorde cuff links. Ladies, they have got Concorde key rings. It will all be worth money some day.
ZAHN: What an inducement to come play with all those toys there.
I have a question, what is going to happen to all these passengers who have truly relied on the Concorde to do efficient business?
QUEST: I'll tell you what will happen to them, Paula. Over my shoulder you'll see the big 7 triple 7's and 747s. They'll be on those planes in bed at the front of the plane. Where they won't be is at the back with their knees around their ears in economy. It's going to be slower, but it will be more luxurious. That's what the world has to look forward to. Not bad, all things considered.
ZAHN: So what you are telling me, these veteran Concorde flyers aren't all that disappointed tonight?
QUEST: They are disappointed because, let's face it. At 6 grand a ticket, just getting your back side on that plane was an achievement and now it will be no more.
ZAHN: Well, travel safely, Richard. You'll let us know what it was like to go to Mach 1 and Mach 2 and give us the instant replay tomorrow night. Have a very safe trip. Thanks Richard.
Tomorrow on this program we're going to meet the librarian who is suing Harvard University all because she said was passed over on a promotion because she dresses to sexy. Thanks for being with us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Have a great night.
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