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Rome Prepares to Celebrate Pope John Paul II; Bombshells in Kobe Bryant Hearing

Aired October 15, 2003 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us.
Tonight, we're in Rome, as one billion Catholics around the world prepare to celebrate John Paul II's 25 years as pope. One of America's leading cardinals will join us for a frank discussion of the sex abuse scandal that has plagued the church.

And chasing away the evil spirits. We'll talk with the Vatican's chief exorcist.

All that ahead from here tonight.

But first, here's Soledad O'Brien back in New York.


Ahead from here tonight, Kobe Bryant's preliminary hearing resumed today with significant rulings by the judge allowing testimony about the sexual history of the woman who accuses Bryant of sexual assault.

Also, a deadly attack in Gaza for the first time targeting Americans. Who did it and how will it change the struggle for peace in the Mideast?

And the play that broke one million Cubs' fans hearts. What was that guy thinking? We're going to talk to the Chicago firefighter who was right next to him.

But first, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

At least 10 people are dead, dozens more hurt, after a ferry crash on New York's Staten Island. Authorities say the boat slam into a pier while trying to dock. A CNN producer on the scenes says large waves made it difficult for the ship to navigate on an extremely windy day.

In Florida, doctors removed a feeding tube from a woman in a coma-like state since 1990. Terri Schiavo is now expected to die within two weeks. Schiavo's husband and legal guardian has said his wife would never have wanted to stay alive in such a state. But her parents want the governor to order the feeding tube reinserted.

And doctors in Dallas are bringing two Egyptian boys out of drug- induced comas. The 2-year-old boys were surgically separated over the weekend. They were born joined at the head. The comas should reduce the swelling of their brains.

We could know as soon as Monday whether the sexual assault case against Kobe Bryant will go to trial. The preliminary hearing ended today, but not before a few bombshells were dropped by the defense. The Kobe Bryant case is "In Focus" tonight.

And I'm joined now from San Francisco by CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin; also this evening by Lawrence Kobilinsky. He's a forensics expert and John Jay College of criminal Justice here in New York.

Good evening, gentlemen. Thanks for joining us.



O'BRIEN: Jeff, let's start with you. Give me a sense of what happened today. What were the bombshells?

TOOBIN: Well, today was the day the defense got to cross-examine for the full morning the detective who interviewed the accuser.

And, in contrast to last week, this was an extremely effective and very professor cross-examination job by Pamela Mackey, where she brought out several important facts that will be very helpful to the defense when this case goes to trial; for example, that, in underwear provided to the government by the accuser, two pairs of underwear, there was unidentified semen that was not linked to Kobe Bryant.

There was none of Kobe Bryant's semen in there. There were pubic hairs, male Caucasian pubic hairs, obviously not from Kobe Bryant. And the accuser admitted that she had had sex with someone else three days before, raising the question of why there was no evidence, at least there, connecting the accuser and Kobe Bryant forensically.

Also, it was brought out that Kobe Bryant had no bruises on his body, no evidence of any sort of struggle. Much detail was brought out about how aggressively the accuser sought to be with Kobe Bryant that night, a very vivid scene of how she walked all the way around the back way to get to Kobe Bryant's room, so his bodyguards would not discover him.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, apparently the first person who saw the accuser after her account with Kobe Bryant, an auditor of the hotel, she wrote a letter to the government saying she did not see anything wrong with the woman and did not indicate -- and she did not indicate that she was disheveled or angry or upset at all, a big contrast to earlier testimony, when a bellman who subsequently saw the accuser on the night of the event, he said that she was quite distraught, so all of those things very good for the defense brought out on cross-examination.

O'BRIEN: And lots for us to get to with our ex -- forensic expert is what I'm trying to say, Larry. Sorry there.

Let's begin with the semen from someone who is not Kobe Bryant on the underwear of the alleged victim in this case. Obviously, this is going to be a big problem for the defense. Give me a sense of the theories that they're going to have to sort of present in order to make their case.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, first of all, let's understand, there are two pairs of underwear, underpants, one the alleged victim was wearing the night of the rape. And the second were the clothing that she was wearing when she went to the hospital.

Now, what is generally done is, there are presumptive and then confirmatory tests for semen. And once it's established that semen is present on the underpants, then DNA testing is done. That DNA testing results in a genetic profile. Now, the fact that there is somebody else's DNA on the underpants I believe is a real assault on her credibility, because, No. 1, she's basically saying that, although she had sex three days before, she used a condom.

And therefore, the finding of semen, not Kobe Bryant's, and the fact that she used a condom, where did that come from? So the question is, is she promiscuous? Did that semen come from somebody else? Where did it come from? It leaves us questioning her credibility.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's talk about the physical injuries. As we heard from Jeffrey, no physical injuries appeared to be on Kobe Bryant. He is easily a foot taller than the woman who is accusing him of rape in this case. Do you think that is significant?

KOBILINSKY: Well, we have to be realistic. He is much larger than she is. She is bent over a chair. He allegedly has his hands around her neck.

There is an injury. There is an injury to her left jaw. There is a bruise, which is consistent with the story that she is telling, that he grabbed her forcefully and pulled her head around. The fact that there is no injury on him simply means that she was not in a position to scratch or attack the victim, if you want to believe her story.

O'BRIEN: Early on and it is getting very nasty, as it was predicted, I think, all around.

Jeff Toobin, Lawrence Kobilinsky, thanks, gentlemen. Appreciate your time this evening.

TOOBIN: OK, Soledad.

Are Americans the new targets of the violent struggle between Palestinians and Israelis? A remote-control bomb struck a U.S. diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip today, killing three Americans, seriously injuring another. It is the first time that Americans officials have been killed in the three-year Palestinian uprising. No one has claimed responsibility yet, but it could signal a shift in strategy and further damage American peace efforts.

Joining us this evening, Hasan Abdel Rahman. He is the chief Palestinian representative to the United States. He joins us from Washington this evening. And in New York tonight, Middle East expert Stephen Cohen.

Gentlemen, good evening. Thanks for joining me.


O'BRIEN: Mr. Cohen, let's begin with you.

In your mind, do you see this attack as a major shift in what's going on in the Middle East, now that you have Americans as targets of Palestinian violence?

STEPHEN COHEN, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: I think it's a critical indication that the Palestinian Authority no longer has very much authority.

We saw the problem of its decline as authoritative body over the last two years. But this shows that it does not have authority, even in the case where it invites American officials. And it's very important for the Palestinians to maintain a good relationship with the American people and with Americans who are trying to come to the West Bank and Gaza to do something positive, in the eyes of the Palestinians.

After all, these people were coming to find scholarship candidates among Palestinians to go to the United States. And these people were coming, as the Palestinians had wanted Americans to do, to spend more time.

O'BRIEN: Let me stop you right there, because I want to ask Mr. Rahman.

Do you think, then, that this is a clear indication that the Palestinian Authority cannot control the militants in the area that they patrol?

HASAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO U.S.: Well, I don't think you can do that conclusion. I think terrorism can happen anywhere in the world. That does not mean that this is an indication that the Palestinian Authority does not have authority.

Having said that, of course, the Palestinian security institutions were weakened dramatically by the assault on them by Israel over the last three years, which conducted a systematic effort to destroy the Palestinian security capabilities. But also having said that, I'd like to extend our deepest condolences to those families of Americans and Palestinians.

Remember that Palestinians were killed also in this attack. We view this with a great deal of concern, because we know what kind of mission those people were on. And we feel that an attack on anyone, Americans or non-Americans, is a very dangerous situation. O'BRIEN: Mr. Cohen -- and forgive me for interrupting there -- Mr. Cohen, Hamas, Islamic Jihad both said, it wasn't us. Does that surprise you? No one has stepped forward to claim responsibility in this attack.

COHEN: It doesn't surprise in the sense that, normally, there is some support in the Palestinian street for an attack in which Israelis are killed.

I don't think that anyone would believe that there is any political advantage to the Palestinians of killing innocent Americans. And, therefore, there is no credit to take. It's a strange thing to say that you can take credit for killing innocent Israelis, but that is the truth. In this situation, there is no one to take credit because there is no credit to take. No one believes that this is of any benefit to the Palestinian cause.

They know that it is damaging to the Palestinian cause, because the Palestinians, as I say, are anxious, are eager to have the United States spend more time in the West Bank and Gaza, to be present as a force that monitors what is happening and tries to prevent the further deterioration of the Palestinian situation.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman, is this undermining completely the peace process now?

RAHMAN: Well, of course, again, as I said, it is very dangerous and regretful event, what happened today.

And the Palestinian Authority is determined to do all it can, with the support of the United States, of course, and even Israel, to investigate this event. We have to look at who really benefits from this. Definitively, it's not the Palestinian people. And it is not the Palestinian Authority. And, therefore, there is some party who would like to complicate relations between the Palestinians and the United States. We don't know who it is.

We hope that this will give us an incentive to double our effort to find a peaceful settlement. And that really requires the engagement of the United States at the highest level and others of the partners in the quartet in the road map to come together and bring the Palestinians and the Israelis, and trying to establish a simultaneous cease-fire between the two sides, and bring them back to the negotiating table.


O'BRIEN: We'll see if that happens. And forgive me for interrupting you there. We are out of time.

Gentlemen, both Hasan Abdel Rahman and Stephen Cohen, nice to have you. I appreciate it.

And we're going to take you to Paula Zahn at the Vatican to preview tomorrow's celebration of Pope John Paul II's 25th anniversary. And hear her interview with Washington Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, talking about the pope's health. Paula will also introduce us to the Vatican's chief exorcist. No, they're not just in the movies.

And then back here: the fate of the too eager Cubs fan. A bad catch is the least of his problems.


ZAHN: And welcome back to a very windy Rome.

Tomorrow marks the 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II's election to the papacy. The entire Catholic Church will be praying for him, but special celebrations are planned at the Vatican.

For a preview of the festivities tomorrow, I'm joined by CNN Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher, and John Allen. He is the Vatican correspondent for "The National Catholic Reporter."

Good to see both of you.


ZAHN: I'm going to start with you tonight, John.

What is the significance of the celebrations tomorrow, not only within the Catholic world, but the world at large?

ALLEN: Well, start with the fact that this doesn't happen very often.

Depending on whether you count Saint Peter, who was, according to traditional, the first pope, this is either the third or fourth pope who has reigned a total of 25 years, who has reached a silver jubilee. So it is historically significant on that basis alone. But more than that, this is a pontificate that has cut across every one of the most important political, social, cultural, religious questions of our times.

So whether you're Catholic or not, John Paul has made a difference in your life. And so I think the eyes of the world, in a sense, will be upon Rome tomorrow.

What we'll be waiting for in the mass, I think, above all, is the pope's homily. That's the message he delivers after the Gospel reading, where we expect him to sort of, in a few minutes, synthesize the key themes of his pontificate. This, of course, is a peak moment which not only the world, but John Paul, in a way, has been building these 25 years.

ZAHN: Do you expect any surprises tomorrow?

ALLEN: Well, I think the surprise will be, first of all, what exactly does the pope pick out in terms of his key themes. I think that will be very interesting to see how he himself conceptualizes that. And then, obviously, we'll also be waiting to see how he does physically. ZAHN: And that is a chief concern of a lot of the people we talked with at the Vatican today, how he is going to appear to the public.

Now, for those of you who cover him and get to see him on a daily basis, the decline is not as obvious, is it?


I mean, you see the pope every day and we see this physical debilitation. And it is not such a surprise to those of us who watch him closely. But for the rest of the world, when they see him on television, in particular, all you can see is this physical decrepitness. But, really, when you see him up close, you can see that there is still that spirit. And he's able to talk to you and follow conversations.

So there is this dichotomy between what we see physically and his ailing body, and, yet, the mental willingness to continue, which, of course, is seen in the fact that he does continue to make these public appearances.

ZAHN: Do we know how involved the pope has been in creating this homily for tomorrow?

ALLEN: Well, I think the way these documents typically work is, there is a team of people who sort of provide the pope with drafts. But the pope also is infamous for the final version of it very much reflecting his own hand.

And, usually, when you look at these homilies, you can find certain lines, if not sort of an entire paragraph, that very clearly reflect the pope's own thinking. I think that's another thing all of us will be waiting to hear tomorrow.

ZAHN: And a final thought about the number of pilgrims who have come here to Rome to enjoy the celebration tomorrow.


Already, we have seen in the streets some of Mother Teresa's sisters, for example, in their white habits, Indian sisters, that have come all the way from India, to celebrate the pope's 25th and to celebrate the beatification of Mother Teresa, which will happen on Sunday. There are hundreds of thousands of pilgrims that have come to Rome and that come all the time, but in particular that are coming to celebrate with this pope.

ZAHN: Delia, John, thank you for both of your perspectives.

I guess this wind might have been something the planners had not counted on.

ALLEN: You could say the spirit is blowing, Paula.

ZAHN: It certainly is tonight. Thank you again. The entire College of Cardinals have been invited to the Vatican for this week's celebration. Among them is Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of the Diocese of Washington, who made some time to talk with me this week.


ZAHN: It's an honor to be with you this afternoon.

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, DIOCESE OF WASHINGTON: I am delighted and honored myself to be here. Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: What does this week mean to Catholics?

MCCARRICK: Oh, I think it means a lot of things to them.

I think the great affection that we all have for the holy father comes out at a time like this, and especially in his frailty now and in his illness now. We look at the holy father and say, make that 25. Get another record and enjoy and look at the world and say: Dear lord, you've been so good to me. I have been able to serve you in this way for 25 years.

But I think all Catholics, and me especially, we look to this as a great, happy week.

ZAHN: So you have talked about how meaningful this is to Catholics. What about to the rest of the world, to folks who don't practice Catholicism?

MCCARRICK: Well, I think that they have seen this man come on the stage of history 25 years ago. And they've seen the world change, perhaps in some part because of him and because of his bravery, because of his brilliance, because of his courage. I believe -- I travel a lot in so many parts of the world.

I think they probably say, right on, holy father. That's great.

ZAHN: What is the level of concern about the pope's health right now?

MCCARRICK: I saw the holy father last week. He is obviously frail.

He had a cold, which made his poor life worse that day. And yet he had his script and he read it. And I think a lesser man would have said, OK, that's fine. We wish he were the same man that 25 years ago strode across that stage of history athletic and full of vim and vigor and able to speak with such great power in so many different languages. The world doesn't go that way, we get older.

ZAHN: Given the frailty of the pope's health, do you see any scenario where he would resign?

MCCARRICK: I don't. I don't. I think that John Paul II believes that he's in the hands of God and that God will work it out. God will decide what happens and when it happens and how it happens. And I think he's perfectly peaceful with that.

ZAHN: Do you think the sex abuse chapter is closed?

MCCARRICK: I pray that it is. I believe that, since it is a societal problem, rather than a church problem, that there's always going to be sexual abuse in our society.

I think that's what we have to begin now to look at. I believe that in the Catholic Church, certainly in the United States, we have done everything that the experts have asked us to do, everything that our people have asked us to do. I think we have put an end to this. Will it ever happen again? I can't say that, of course. But now, in the church, the Catholic Church in the United States, more than in any other institution in our country, there are protections and safeguards for children and the safeguard that this will not happen again.

I think that's important for us to realize.

ZAHN: There are critics of the Catholic Church who suggest, because of the church's refusal to promote safe sex and particularly the use of condoms, that the HIV/AIDS problem is out of control in Africa. What share of the blame or burden do you think should fall on the Catholic Church?

MCCARRICK: As you look at Africa, there are many areas which are not Catholic which have the same or worse problems.

Now, having said that...

ZAHN: Yes, what about the areas, though, where Catholics are?

MCCARRICK: Where Catholics are, absolutely.

In areas where there are a large number of Catholics, where the church is strong and where AIDS is strong, I think AIDS is the -- the causes of AIDS are so very diverse. But, certainly, the most important, fundamental way of preventing it is abstinence and fidelity in marriage.

ZAHN: Do you ever see a time where the Catholic Church might soften its position?

MCCARRICK: This holy father has said, be open to life, be open to life. And a contraceptive society is closed to life.

Now, I deal with people who have all kind of problems. And my heart breaks for them. But a contraceptive society is closed to life. And if you're not open to life, you're not open to love, you're not open to beauty, you're not open to wonder. I want people to be open to wonder and open to life.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ZAHN: Our coverage of the papal anniversary continues tonight.

But, also, that play during the Cubs game, the fan who intervened last night to keep them from advancing to the World Series. We're going to talk with somebody who was right there when it happened.

And the latest research suggests, size does matter when it comes to cholesterol. We'll explain.


ZAHN: You might not know that the Vatican has a chief exorcist. We talked with him earlier about the ancient process of casting out demons. What he told us was as astonishing as what you may have seen on the screen at the movies.


ZAHN (voice-over): And you thought it was just a movie.

FATHER GABRIEL AMORTH, VATICAN CHIEF EXORCIST (through translator): The demon is deeply rooted.

ZAHN: A subject the Vatican often doesn't discuss.

AMORTH (through translator): I use a long stone. I put one end of it on the shoulder of person to be exorcised. I do the whole exorcism with a stone.

ZAHN: It's a private and often secret ceremony, more of a struggle, actually, one shrouded in mystery based on ancient ritual.

AMORTH (through translator): Then I have a crucifix. Sometimes, during the exorcism, I put it on their head and the person gets furious.

ZAHN: It's believed to have been practiced by everyone, from Jesus Christ himself to Pope John Paul II.

AMORTH (through translator): Then I start blessing with holy water. This is a tube within it. I open it and water comes out.

ZAHN: The father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of the Vatican.

AMORTH (through translator): If it's blessed by holy water, it gets angry. It gets irritated, throwing itself on the floor. It can also pick up strange things. I think you know the movie "The Exorcist."

ZAHN: The unforgettable movie. The spinning head levitating off the bed, but was it real? Listen to this.

MARCO TOSATTI, JOURNALIST: You have cases in which four dolls, four men, big strong men, cannot keep a 10 years child. And they can really do everything, fly or push very heavy furniture or roll like snakes or just spit nails and things like that.

ZAHN: Journalist Marco Tosatti writes for the Italian Daily "La Stampa." He's been covering the Vatican, religion and exorcism for 32 years.

(on camera): What happens physically in the process of exorcism?

TOSATTI: The spirit hates the sacred things. So just being touched by the shawl or by the cross, it provokes a reaction. Sometimes, it's a very strong one. I mean, you can have a very physical and even dangerous reaction.

ZAHN (voice-over): According to Tosatti, no lesser authority than the pope himself performed an exorcism in the Vatican two years ago.

(on camera): You are very well known for your investigation of the practice of exorcism. After all these years of research, do you believe in possession? Do you believe in the power of exorcism?

TOSATTI: Yes, I do, because, of course, I believe in the power of Jesus Christ to free us.

ZAHN (voice-over): So how about you? Are you still skeptical.

AMORTH (through translator): So you don't believe in the devil. You don't believe in exorcism. You have every right not to believe. The devil's regular activity is to turn man to evil. He does this to everyone, even to me, even to you.

ZAHN: Here in Rome, the Trevi Fountain is a must-see for tourists looking for good luck. But what about the small fortune found in its water? We'll take a look.

And what so many people are talking about back home tonight -- the curse of the goat strikes again. We'll talk with someone with someone who was sitting next to the world's most infamous Cubs fan last night.


O'BRIEN: Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

Lawyers in the D.C. sniper trial are slowly but surely filling a pool of jurors to hear the murder case against John Allen Muhammad. The prosecutor predicts they'll have a jury picked in time to start opening statements on Monday.

Military sources tell CNN there is no new evidence in the search for Navy Captain Scott Speicher, whose plane crashed in the opening hours of the 1991 Gulf War. Officials say all reported sightings of Captain Speicher over the last 12 years were without foundation.

An advisory committee of the Food and Drug Administration today conditionally recommended the government lift its ban on silicon (sic) breast implants. They were taken off the market more than a decade ago due to fears that ruptured implants caused health problems.

It's been years since baseball's playoffs generated this much buzz. First, there was the Yankees-Red Sox rumble over the weekend. Now it looks as if the biggest play of the Cubs-Marlins series was made by a fan.

Time to send in the truth squad.


O'BRIEN (voice-over): It was five outs and counting last night at Wrigley Field. The Cubs had a comfortable 3-0 lead over the Florida Marlins in the eighth inning and were breathtakingly close to being in the World Series for the first time in 58 years.

Then, they choked.

It began when a foul ball was sliced along the leftfield line. Cubs outfield Moises Alou said he was poised to catch it for the second out, but a fan snatched it first. Did that unleash the curse Cubs fans say have plagued their team for almost six decades?

What is certain is that the Marlins then scored eight runs in the eighth inning, which could cost the Cubs a trip to the World Series.


O'BRIEN: Earlier we talked to Cubs fan Pat Looney. He was just about close enough to catch the ball himself last night. Now he's a witness to a moment that will live on in Cubs' infamy.

I asked him what happened.


PAT LOONEY, CUBS FAN: Well, I was sitting right along the line, down the third baseline, you know? The angle -- the angle of our seats and the seats, you know, to the left of me and behind me -- everything is angled toward home plate. So we're looking at home, the ball is coming, -- basically, it looks like it was coming right at me at first. So I did go for the ball, just like, you know, the individual, the guy that actually hit the ball. You know, and everyone else in that section looked up and, you know, put their hands up because the ball looked like it was coming right at us.

O'BRIEN: How close were you sitting to the guy who ended touching the ball?

LOONEY: The guy who hit the ball, I was sitting one row up and maybe one seat over. But I ended up, you know, drifting -- we kind of drifted, we ended up in the same -- you know, almost in the same spot.

O'BRIEN: Now, as you say, all of you are reaching for the ball here. And if you look at the videotape, it's actually pretty clear that Moises Alou is also going for the ball. Why wouldn't you back off and let your team get the ball? LOONEY: If I thought he had any chance in the play, we would have -- I would have backed off. I mean, instinct, you know, shows the ball coming. We're not looking -- because it's on an angle, if we were looking straight ahead, then we would see him coming towards us. He came from behind us. So, in my instance, I can just say what I did. The ball was coming. I had my hands up and when I turned, then I seen the glove and I tried to stop. As soon as I seen him, I tried to stop like this.

The other guy there, he never saw Alou. And it's pretty high over there. I really thought -- until I saw the replay -- I really thought that there was no way he could reach it. We -- in my position, where I was sitting, it looked like we were out of play.

O'BRIEN: OK. So the guy who they're calling the fan touches the fan touches the fall. Give me a sense of what happens next. Did it get ugly immediately?

LOONEY: Yes. It was -- it was crazy, because, I mean -- what we were -- when we were coming, the ball -- it happened so fast, but you -- I realized instantly. I tried to stop, I seen his glove. I realized, Oh my God, he had a chance for that ball and I didn't know exactly who hit it. I knew I didn't hit it, but I was close by, and I was like, oh, no, you know? And everyone was like, you know, yelling and screaming and, you know, throwing beer and stuff like that.

Initially, it wasn't that bad and then, all of a sudden the next couple plays just went -- the very next pitch was a wild pitch and the guy walked and (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: Well, yes, things kind of fell apart for your Cubs across the board. And do you feel sometimes like this guy, who I know is being called in Chicago "the fan," is being a little unfairly blamed? I mean, you're talking about eight runs -- you know, by the eighth inning. Certainly, he wasn't responsible for each and every one of those, right?

LOONEY: Right. I mean, it was -- it was -- it happened at such a bad time. They say it was the key play that turned things around. But you can't blame a guy on a ball with one out. I just think, you know, they're -- people are looking for somebody to blame and they're blaming him.

O'BRIEN: How about blaming the curse? The curse of the billy goat, as lore has it, as you well know. Do you think there is any validity to that?

LOONEY: I don't...


LOONEY: No way. I don't buy into this curse thing. I think the fuel -- I think people -- we came from such a high to such a low so quick. I mean, in our minds, the game was over. It was 3-0, one out. You know, there was five outs left. We're like, This is it. Everyone was saying, We did it. We did it. And all of a sudden -- it just disappeared so quick. Everybody's emotion -- that's why -- that's why the emotion -- because it came from such a guaranteed win to a guaranteed loss like that -- that's why everyone took their frustrations out on this guy. And, you know, people are still mad about it.

O'BRIEN: If they win -- if Cubs win, people won't be mad about it any more, right?

LOONEY: No way.

O'BRIEN: Pat Looney, thanks for joining us tonight.

LOONEY: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate your time. Good luck to you tonight.

LOONEY: Take care.


O'BRIEN: A true fan.

Well, the fan, Steve Bartman, has released a statement saying, in part, "Had I thought for one second that the ball was playable or had I seen Alou approaching, I would have done whatever I could to get out of the way and given Alou a chance to make the catch." That is from the man who is now sort of notoriously called "the fan."

In that other playoff series today, the Red Sox forced a seventh game, besting the Yankees, 9-6.

Well, that pesky issue of cholesterol and health is getting more complicated. It's no longer just about good and bad cholesterol in the blood. Now it's big and little cholesterol. We'll sort it all out for you just ahead.

And Grammy-winner Seal is back with his first CD release in five years. He'll be joining us.


O'BRIEN: For one of the few times in medicine we can say with confidence that bigger is better. New research shows that if the particles carrying cholesterol through your blood stream are bigger than normal, that may help you live longer. Dr. Nancy Snyderman is Vice-President of Johnson and Johnson, who has 18 years experience as a medical journalist joins us from San Francisco this evening to talk about that. Dr. Snyderman good evening. Nice to see you.


O'BRIEN: The study comes out of the "Journal of the American Medical Association." Give me a sense of the importance of this study.

SNYDERMAN: The important sentence medicine keeps changing and the importance is also that what we know about cholesterol may not necessarily be true. That is, your absolute level of your good cholesterol or bad cholesterol may not be everything.

In fact, what you said, the size of the particles circulating in your blood stream may have more to do with how long you live and whether you get heart disease or a stroke or not. The smaller the particle the more the cholesterol seems to get embedded in the wall of the blood vessel and collect more little particles. The bigger ones plow their way through and they don't get embedded. So, we're talking about gravel in your pipes versus stones that really can't get in the pipes to begin with. And that seems to make a big difference.

O'BRIEN: Right now most of us are focused on the percentages of LDL and HDL and keeping it all balanced. But you seem to be saying that it's actually more important than the size. Is that more important than the good cholesterol or bad cholesterol or is it too early to say that definitively?

SNYDERMAN: It's not more important, it's just another piece of the puzzle. What the researchers in this article looked at were Jews, Oshkinazi Jews (ph), a very interesting population to study. And they looked at people in their late 90s to 100. And they tried to figure out, was there a common denominator.

And they found a gene that caused particles of cholesterol to be large. And they found that in those people who lived to be about a century old, they had a gene to make the cholesterol particles large. And in fact, those same people passed that gene on to their kids, so the kids can expect to live nice, long lives. So it raises the question, if you have that gene, are you home free? Well maybe, maybe not. But the flip side is, if you don't have that gene and you know that big particles matter, can you get those particles to get larger?

O'BRIEN: Well, can you? Do you foresee a day, Dr. Snyderman, where one day they'll be able to somehow manipulate these particles?

SNYDERMAN: It's the be all and end all, Soledad. It's what the pharmaceutical industry is going start to looking at. Drug companies will start to figure out, are there cholesterol lowering drugs that can make the particles higher. And if so, should you be on them? And I think there's going to be a race to develop that kind of drug.

And, also, if you exercise, it appears you can make the particles larger also. So you can't say, oh, well, I have the gene, I won't have trouble. On the other hand, I already obviously, don't have the gene, therefore, I'm going to die.

As in most things in medicine thank the parents who give you good genes and then you have to live a reasonable life to environmentally make those genes express themselves even further. So, it's another piece of the puzzle, but not the only piece that will allow you to live to be 100 Scott free.

O'BRIEN: And a complicated puzzle it is. If there is a screening test one day, that in itself, opens up a Pandora's box.

SNYDERMAN: Oh, I think it's going to be cool. I think that's exactly what's going to happen. You're going to be able to go in and have your HDL and your LDL, your good cholesterol and your bad cholesterol, and then you're going to get this soon, you're going to be able to have your particle size checked.

And if you have a particle size that puts you at risk, you may go on drugs to make it bigger, you may do some environmental changes, that is, stop smoking and exercise.

But let me take you to the brave new world. I think the day is around the bend when we are going to be able to do fetal testing and say, you know what, your fetus is really at risk because you have the gene for low particles or, guess what, you're lucky you have the gene for big articles. And we'll be able to tinker, in utero, fixing fetuses before they take your first breath. That's the brave new world and it's not that far away.

O'BRIEN: The world not far away according to Dr. Snyderman. Nice to see you, as always. Have a great night.

SNYDERMAN: You, too, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, his new album was five-years in the making. What took so long for Seal to get back in the game? We'll talk to the Grammy winner about his dry spell, his fans and his future.

And we'll go back to Rome and one of the most famous landmarks in the eternal city.


O'BRIEN: Its been five years since singer/songwriter Seal released his last album, "Human Being." But the Grammy winner behind hit songs like "Kiss from a Rose," is back with a new effort. It's simply titled "Seal Four." And it features a song you just heard, "Waiting For You." Seal joins us now. Nice to see you.

SEAL, SINGER: Terribly original title don't you think.

O'BRIEN: I like that title.

SEAL: You do? I saw you bumping away there.

O'BRIEN: I love this song, it's very danceable and the critics are loving it, as well. But why such a long delay? Five years, your fans were sort of like, OK now.

SEAL: When I ask this question my response is that it is always very easy to write songs, it's a skill like anything else and also to make records, there's a method involved. But to actually, write songs that will have an effect on people whereby it will resonate with them. Is always the most difficult thing and most intangible thing.

O'BRIEN: After huge success, what's the pressure like now?

Because it seems sometimes that you have to just have wild success to match it, meet it, otherwise people say, well not as good as the past. SEAL: You know, the hardest thing for me is to make a record that I'm proud of. To make a record that I believe in and at the end of the day I can listen to and go, I did my best. Therein lies the success. What will be will be. You know, you can't really control what the critics say or, indeed, how the public respond to it, but you can, you can to some degree or a large degree control your effort. And your integrity and so, you know, it was a success as soon as I finished it.

O'BRIEN: I was surprised to read after the difficult childhood that you had and a father, by all accounts, was a terrible guy...

SEAL: No, no, no...

O'BRIEN: He was an abusive father and you talked about that in the past.

SEAL: He wasn't a terrible guy. He was somebody who was, he was blocked. And some people are just stuck.

O'BRIEN: You credit him with a lot -- for making you to some degree who you are today. That surprised me. You said he is...

SEAL: I think it's an accurate thing to say. I think he, he formed the kind of person that I am today. I mean, yes, there was a lot of adversity, but a lot of people go through that. And, yes, perhaps his methods in sort of bringing me up were questionable to say the least, but to be at the age that I am now at and look back on my childhood as being extremely dysfunctional and looking at my father as being a terrible man would kind of indicate that I'm holding on to something. And, really, I think that you have to show compassion were every possible. If you look at things in the grand scheme, it was actually quite functional because here I am today with the most incredible life.

O'BRIEN: And a very, very, very good fourth album, as well.

SEAL: Thank you very much.

O'BRIEN: Thank you for coming and talking to us about it.

SEAL: Was that it?

O'BRIEN: That's it. You can stay for the whole show, we'd love to have you.

SEAL: I was just getting started.

O'BRIEN: Well, than stick around. The commercial break we'll chat as well.


O'BRIEN: Well, it has been immortalized on film and a must-see destination for tourists who are looking for luck. We are going to take a look at the Trevi Fountain. Paula Zahn is back in just a moment from Rome with a final thought.



ZAHN: It is one of the most popular sites in Rome, the Trevi fountain. Few tourists could resist tossing a coin under the fountain for luck. But what happens to all the money at the bottom? The answer may surprise you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you throw a coin into the pool, you are supposed to get your wish.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A penny's worth of hope.

ZAHN (voice-over): It worked in Hollywood and now for almost every tourist on Roman holiday it is the fountain of dreams.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How often are you in Rome?

You have to do things like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just here for good luck.

ZAHN: But luck can cost you. There is an estimated $300,000 worth of coins thrown in here every year making it a place looking for people who are for a fast fortune, well, maybe a fast Euro. The only catch how do you get the coins out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little guy using his finger at the end a magnet and he was throw it inside the fountain.

ZAHN: That's child's play for this Italian, Roberto Churchaleto (ph). Since 1968 he has made quite a living wading into the waters at dawn, some say netting over $1,000 a week at the height of tourist season. Then there is this man's sly technique. Not sly enough for our cameras to miss. A telescoping magnetic fishing rod, but according to his friend -- he only catches enough for a pack of cigarettes. And finally, this woman who we caught just yesterday dipping her magnetic wand into the waters. But as it happened many times before she got shoed away by police. But not for what you think. You see, it's not illegal to take the coins out of the fountain, it is illegal to touch the water when you do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The law says you can't put legs inside the fountain because you can damage and you can't climb on the fountain or enter using something that can damage it.

ZAHN: Police patrol on the ground, but get a boost from big brother above. He's always watching. Last summer city officials installed enclosed closed circuit cameras to watch the 18th century fountain 24/7. So the money ends up in the right hand, the Catholic charity that is supposed to get it. You see every day city workers everyday empty the fountain, vacuum up the coins and distribute them.

VITO GASPARETO, CHARITY WORKER (through translator): Before we had to depend on offerings in the church and now it's a lot of money that helps us help the poor.

ZAHN: Giving hope to charitable causes, all from the dream of people all around the world looking for a little luck, a little happiness at the foot of Rome's most famous sculpture.

(on camera): And be sure to stay with CNN tomorrow. We'll join you live from Rome with the special coverage of the 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II's (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

And that wraps it up this evening. Thanks so much for being with us tonight. We will be back from Rome again tomorrow night.

In the meantime "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.


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