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PAULA ZAHN NOW

Jury Selection Begins in Sniper Trial; Cell Phone Cameras Violation of Privacy?

Aired October 14, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: the shootings that transfixed a nation. The first sniper suspect goes on trial, as jury selection begins in Virginia.
Cell phones with yes: Snoopers with camera phones can capture your every embarrassing public moment. And they're posting them on the Web in seconds for all to see.

And Paula Zahn joins us from the Vatican, a week of celebrations marking 25 historic years of Pope John Paul II.

And good evening and welcome. Paula's reporting from Rome tonight.

Ahead this hour, we spend a day on the campaign trail with Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark.

We'll dig into that increasing debate on the issues around Iraq. Are reporters missing the good news because of an overemphasis on the bad?

And climb on board Air Force One tonight, a guided tour of how presidential aircraft have changed history.

First, though, some of the headlines you need to know right now.

For the second time in three days, a suicide bomber has struck in Iraq. A car bomb was set off this afternoon outside the Turkish Embassy in Baghdad. U.S. and Turkish officials say only the bomber was killed there.

The Pentagon says it's working to bring in new groups to try and endorse Muslim chaplains. How the chaplains are picked has generated controversy ever since the arrest of Army Captain James Yee. Government sources say the two groups who endorse Muslim chaplains are being looked at as part of the investigation into terrorism financing.

Doctors in Dallas say the 2-year-old Egyptian boys surgically separated over the weekend are making remarkable progress. The twins had been joined at the head. And doctors say, depending on test results, they soon could lighten the boys drug-induced coma.

Our top story tonight: the trial of John Allen Muhammad. It's in our "Focus" this evening. Muhammad entered a plea of not guilty today to four charges, including two for capital murder, all relating to the shooting death of Dean Harold Meyers. Meyers was shot in the head and killed last October at a gas station near Manassas, Virginia.

Sari Horwitz is with us tonight from Washington. Michael Ruane is with us live in Virginia Beach, where the trial continues there. He was in the courtroom today for the start of jury selection. Ruane and Horwitz co-wrote the book "Sniper." We welcome both of them this evening here to our program.

Nice to see you both again.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Michael, how did John Muhammad react today in court?

MICHAEL RUANE, CO-AUTHOR, "SNIPER": Bill, he came into court wearing sort of a rumpled white shirt and a necktie and dark pants. He looked a little sort of disorganized, discombobulated, if you will.

He didn't seem to -- looked a little like he didn't quite know where he was. There was little reaction from him all day during the sort of tedium of jury selection. He just kind of glanced around occasionally and listened carefully at his seat.

HEMMER: Was he paying attention to the process, Michael?

RUANE: Yes, he was, to some degree. But it was kind of long and repetitive.

And he just -- he seemed to be sort of drifting away a little bit. He looked to me like a guy who had just awakened from a sleep or something.

HEMMER: Sari, to get a conviction, part of this case revolves around the prosecution putting the gun, the trigger in the hand of John Muhammad. How strong is that evidence right now that we know of?

SARI HORWITZ, CO-AUTHOR, "SNIPER": The prosecution's case is circumstantial, which means that they are not going to be able -- no one has seen John Muhammad -- no one saw John Muhammad pull the trigger. No one saw him run from one of the criminal scenes.

What I mean by circumstantial is, they're going to have ballistic evidence. The fragments found in Dean Meyers' body were linked to the gun that was found in the car where Malvo and Muhammad were found sleeping when they were arrested. They also have the confession from Lee Boyd Malvo, which talks about a computer. He said it's all in that computer. And on that computer are maps. And there's a map to the Manassas scene, which is what the trial is about in this case. There also was a map found at the crime scene from Baltimore. And that map has both the fingerprints of Lee Boyd Malvo and John Muhammad on them.

HEMMER: This second part of this case for the prosecution lies in the whole new terrorism law that came into being after the attacks of 9/11. They're using it in this case. How might that apply, or will it?

HORWITZ: The terrorism law?

HEMMER: Yes.

HORWITZ: Well, the argument will be that the community was terrorized. In Malvo's confession, he talks about wanting to terrorize the community. That was the point of the random shootings, wanting to terrorize the community. So they will use that, along with their capital murder charge law.

HEMMER: Michael, the government cannot afford to lose this case. Many experts on the outside are looking in say they have mountains of evidence. Do you see any holes right now that the defense may try and poke through?

RUANE: Well, he -- John Muhammad pleaded not guilty to the terrorism charge, the multiple murder charge, the conspiring and confederating in the course of a murder, and the firearms charge. I think that the defense will probably just bank on the absence of certain evidence that actually puts him pulling the trigger.

HEMMER: Sari Horwitz, Michael Ruane, authors of the book "Sniper," thanks for coming back with us tonight. And we'll follow it along with you as this trial grows older.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Among the many topics being discussed with potential jurors in that case is pretrial publicity. We've heard all about that. What effect will it have on the selection process?

Jury consultant Cynthia Cohen is live tonight from L.A., here to talk about that.

What do you think? How hard is it to find a jury in a case like this?

CYNTHIA COHEN, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, it is pretty hard to find somebody who doesn't know very much about the case. And the pretrial publicity, what actually had more effect was whether they were paying attention while these incidents were happening.

And you had a nation that was pretty much captivated by a looming monster, so how much were they watching the media back then vs. how much are they watching it now.

HEMMER: Cynthia, if you're a defense attorney, what kind of a juror do you want on your side?

COHEN: A defense juror on this kind of a case, you're going to look for somebody who is alienated from family, from country and from God, and maybe not necessarily in that order, somebody who has no sensitivity to emotions, who wasn't caught up with the anger and the fear as to what was happening and captivating the country.

And they're probably -- you're not going to find somebody who was living in a bunker. You are probably going to find somebody who has got knowledge of the case.

HEMMER: They changed the venue about 200 miles outside the D.C. area. Does that have much of an impact here?

COHEN: Well, we always look at how close the juror is to the epicenter of the case, not just in where they live, but in what kind of experiences that they have. So, if the people in northern Virginia were all shut in their houses and the people in the southeastern Virginia were not, then it would have a difference.

But you had people across the country who were looking to fly into that area. So they felt affected, too. So you have somewhat, because they may not have the neighbors who had experienced the loss of a loved one or a cousin, and you may still have people who have connections in southeastern Virginia.

HEMMER: Cynthia, hang with us one second here, OK? We're going to turn to the Kobe Bryant matter. We'll come back to you in L.A. in a moment here.

All parties come back to court tomorrow in Colorado. The preliminary hearing continues after a blowup in court last week. What's the impact now of statements made by the defense last week?

Jeffrey Toobin joins our conversation live in Eagle, Colorado.

Good evening, Jeffrey. Nice to see you in

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hey, pal.

HEMMER: You doing OK?

TOOBIN: It's a beautiful day here in Colorado, as usual.

HEMMER: And getting ready for this thing tomorrow, what does Pamela Mackey do? Does she come in contrite or does she stay just as aggressive as she was a week ago?

TOOBIN: I think bombs away, just as aggressive.

The defense here is, this woman is a liar. They have some material to work with. She demonstrated last week that she is going to push this defense as far as the law will allow, and maybe even a little further. That remains to be seen. I think the attack on the credibility of the accuser is going to be the beginning, middle and end of this case.

HEMMER: If that's the case, then, if that's her approach, what does the judge do and say? And how does he react?

TOOBIN: Well, this will be a real test of Judge Gannett, because this really was inappropriate behavior by Pamela Mackey, perhaps unintentionally repeatedly using the name of the accuser.

Also, this allegation -- and, remember, it's only an allegation -- about the sex life of the accuser, that is what prompted the big blowup. But we have not seen the parties in court since the moment that she asked that bombshell question about whether the injuries were consistent with a woman who had had sex with three different men in three days. The judge suspended proceedings. And we have not seen any testimony since then.

HEMMER: But what we know right now is, the judge is going to try and keep this hearing open to the public tomorrow. But he has the option to close it, right, if things go the way he does not like it going?

TOOBIN: That's right.

At 8:15 local time, before court opens to the public, there will be a private session with the lawyers and the judge about whether the proceedings will be open. Judge Gannett has been pretty clear that he wants proceedings to be open. But he may restrict some of the subjects of the testimony and perhaps tell Pamela Mackey, don't ask those kinds of questions unless you get prior permission.

HEMMER: Jeff, I know you were listening to our earlier discussion about what's happening back in Virginia.

Back to Cynthia in L.A.

We talk about a small jury pool here in Eagle, Colorado. Everybody knows this case. Many of them know the victim involved, according to reports out there in Colorado. How do you do it fair and just in Colorado in this matter?

COHEN: Well, you're going to have to ask questions that are of a very sensitive nature. So it's going to be a very tough procedure. My guess is that they are going to voir dire the jurors individually, because they're going to want to ask not just major questions about whether they have respect for women or ask about their own personal lives, as to whether they've had any experience or have any particular attitudes about date rape.

But you're also going to have to find out whether people can clearly tell you about their feelings. Some people are very, very modest and some people are not. So there's a big continuum. But some of the tough questions are going to have to be asked, as to whether they have any views and are going to prejudge either of the sides, based on things that they have heard.

HEMMER: Thank you, Cynthia -- Cynthia Cohen live in L.A. Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst on the scene there in Eagle -- see you tomorrow morning, Jeff. Get some sleep tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: All right.

Want to get to the issue of Iraq now, what's happening over there. National Public Radio senior foreign correspondent Anne Garrels recently returned from Baghdad. In fact, she came home three weeks ago. She rode out the war in the Iraqi capital and wrote a book about it. It's called "Naked in Baghdad."

Earlier today, I asked her if resentment toward Americans is on the rise on the Iraqi streets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNE GARRELS, AUTHOR, "NAKED IN BAGHDAD": I think there's one basic problem.

Americans have not done as much as they could have or should have in the immediate aftermath of the war. And the Iraqis had heightened expectations of just what the U.S. could do. So that's a pretty explosive combination. And the key word in the minds of all Iraqis at this point is security, security, security.

HEMMER: Put that answer with this poll that came out from Gallup earlier in the day; 71 percent of those surveyed in Baghdad alone say the U.S. should not leave now, but should stay on for several months. What do you account for that?

GARRELS: Well, it's a problem. You ask Iraqis, do you want the U.S. to leave? They say yes. And then you say, when, now? No, they say.

But the conundrum at this point is that the U.S. cannot provide enough adequate security throughout Iraq. And it needs to internationalize the situation. But, until there is more security, the U.N. will not come in. And until the U.N. comes in, there will not be adequate security.

HEMMER: Well, there's a legitimate catch-22.

What do you think is the No. 1 threat right now facing U.S. forces?

GARRELS: It's coming from various sources.

It is still the aftermath of the Saddam regime. Foreign fighters are coming in. I've seen them. They were there just before the war had started. Saddam had brought them in to help. More have come in. It's now the place to take on the Americans. And, increasingly, there are radicals within Iraq, Shiites, who I think are beginning to take on the Americans.

HEMMER: Back to the foreign fighter question, do you have a number or an estimate as to how many?

GARRELS: No.

I saw a couple of thousand before the war who came in. How many of those stayed, how many more have come in since, I don't know. But they were coming from all over: Algeria, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria, you name it.

HEMMER: What about the Iraqi Governing Council. There was news again perhaps taking over in mid-December. There's a bit of timeline that's been announced. How are they seen by Iraqis?

GARRELS: They have no real -- they have not yet garnered any real respect from Iraqis. There's once again another conundrum here. The Iraqi Governing Council is demanding more power. Yet it has not really effectively used the power it already has.

HEMMER: There are conflicting opinions as to the accuracy of media reports that we see in this country. The White House complains oftentimes that the good news stories are not getting the same time and print space as the bad news story. Is there truth to that?

GARRELS: I don't happen to think so.

The situation is extremely difficult in Iraq. If it were not so difficult, the American civilian administration would not be hiding behind coils of barbed wire and walls of sandbags. Once again, the security situation is dire. As long as these attacks can continue and happen anywhere, it's going to be impossible for the international community to work effectively.

Most international organizations have pulled out. New troops are loathe to come in. And Iraqis who work with the Americans are being targeted as collaborators. You only have to kill one in a town for the rest of those people, the rest of the Iraqis to be too frightened to work.

HEMMER: Anne Garrels in Washington, thanks for talking and sharing with us.

GARRELS: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: So, then, the question continues a bit later: Is the coverage on Iraq too negative? More on that question in a few moments, as the White House pushes the debate again to the forefront this week.

Also, on the campaign trail tonight: Retired General Wesley Clark, how is he doing? Is he gaining any traction?

Also, this is a cell phone. You might know that. You might not know that it's a camera, too. Kevin is going to come here in a second. In a matter of moments, I can actually fire up this camera -- hang on one second -- take Kevin's picture and send it online in a matter of moments. Some people say this is a huge violation of privacy, one guy tonight who says, no way. In fact, he started a Web site to show his own photographs that he takes every day of strangers.

Back in a moment right after this with that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Retired General and former NATO Commander Wesley Clark created quite a sensation when he joined the presidential race a few weeks ago. Lately, though, Clark has had some troubles. His campaign manager quit a few days ago. And he's taken some heat from fellow candidates.

Today, Clark gave a speech at New York's Hunter College calling for a new American patriotism. A sample now:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a patriotism that recognizes that democracy demands this dialogue. It demands discussion, disagreement and dissent. And there is nothing, nothing more patriotic than speaking out, questioning authority, and holding your leaders accountable, whether it's in a time of peace or a time of war.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: That was from earlier today.

Here in New York tonight, "TIME" columnist Joe Klein was at the event and joins us here.

Nice to see you. Good evening to you.

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good to see you.

HEMMER: What does this mean? Define that, new American patriotism?

KLEIN: Well, it does two things. It gives him the chance to say things like that, what you just saw, which drives Democratic audiences wild. They love hearing that kind of thing.

HEMMER: Does it drive these audiences wild for him, though?

KLEIN: Oh, yes.

Democratic audiences, it's like the dog that could talk. Here, you have a general who is not only against the war, but he's defending war protesters. The people in that hall today were going crazy over that sort of thing. And the audience was primary composed of pretty liberal New Yorkers.

HEMMER: Yes. So, outside that haul, though, these people came to see Wesley Clark talk. And he was the

(CROSSTALK)

KLEIN: Well, there are a lot of Democrats shopping right now.

HEMMER: Go outside of New York City, though. How are people responding to him? Do they recognize him now? Or how many come up and say, who are you and what do you stand for?

KLEIN: Well, that's the problem with this whole race, is that, over the last month, nothing's been heard from them because of the Arnold and because of California. And so you're getting a fair amount of desperation right now among the candidates.

Believe it or not, we're going into the homestretch. It's only three months until Iowa. And so you have candidates trying to reinvent themselves. Joe Lieberman did it yesterday with a new tax plan, Wes Clark today with a new patriotism. John Edwards today announced that he was going to vote against the $87 billion for Iraq. This race is stuck in the water right now. People aren't paying attention. And candidates are looking for ways to get the public to notice.

HEMMER: So John Edwards now goes in the Dennis Kucinich file. Who would have thought that?

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: But to really make a run for this nomination, you need allies, strong, powerful allies within the party. Who does Clark have on his side?

KLEIN: Well, you know what? Howard Dean had no strong, powerful allies in the party. He had only his mouth. And that's done him a world of good. You would have to say, at this point, that if there was going to be one person in the finals here, it's at least going to be Howard Dean. He's the front-runner.

Wes Clark is not looking for allies in the party. What he's looking for is to build a popular movement based on his anti-war position and the fact that, as a general, he's perceived as a moderate to conservative character.

HEMMER: You know several week ago, there was a lot of confusion about the number of positions. Has that clarified itself or is that going to continue to nag and dog him as we go further and there are more debates and more stumps toward New Hampshire?

KLEIN: Well, he thinks he's clarified it. It was his position on the war in Iraq. He claims to be against the war. But there are things that he wrote and said on this network, including on this network, that went against that. So it's unclear. And I'm sure that his opponents are going to try and make something as it goes forward.

HEMMER: Listening to your previous answers, you sound like a fan. Are you? KLEIN: I'm a journalist. I'm a fan of fun when it comes to politics. I want to be entertained here.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Thanks for coming in. Joe Klein, "TIME" magazine, nice to see to see you.

In a moment here, take a look at this, Shakespeare's Globe Theater transplanted to Italy. Paula explains from Rome tonight on that story.

And American history as written in the skies on board Air Force One, a look back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: All this week, Roman Catholics around the world mark the 25th anniversary of the election of Pope John Paul II and his papacy. And what a legend it has been.

Paula tonight reports from the Eternal City in Rome.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to Rome and welcome to our amazing view.

Behind me and to my right is the complex at St. Peter's and Vatican City. And then, if you swing your attention over my left shoulder, you'll actually see the pope's apartment off in the distance. The celebrations of Thursday's anniversary may be tempered by the very evident decline in Pope John Paul's physical condition.

Despite that, the Vatican continues to assure the public that he has no intention of resigning. Just two years ago, he was strong enough to preside over an exorcism in the Vatican. It is one of the church's oldest and most mysterious rituals. And tomorrow, we'll hear more about it from the priest who is the Vatican's chief exorcist.

Tonight, however, we will look to more secular matters. While most of the attention here focused on the pope and his 25-year legacy, this evening, there was an historic event of a different kind altogether.

(voice-over): Oh, the monuments of Rome, Julius Caesar's Forum, St. Peter's Basilica, Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel, Shakespeare's Globe Theater. Wait a second. Shakespeare's Globe Theater? Indeed.

Over the summer, work preceded as a very un-Roman pace on an almost exact replica of the theater in London where William Shakespeare famously staged many of his plays.

NANCY ISENBERG, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ROME: This is really a miracle. It's a miracle by anyone's standards. It's a miracle by Italian standards. It's a miracle by Rome standards. ZAHN: Nancy Isenberg is a Shakespearian scholar and a professor at the University of Rome.

ISENBERG: We're in the middle of a very lovely park in the middle of downtown Rome. This is a park which is celebrating its 100 years of being a public park. And as part of the celebration, this structure grew up over the summer, incredibly.

ZAHN: But why build it? Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni, the former minister of culture, helped to hatch the project.

WALTER VELTRONI, MAYOR OF ROME: Because we have many theaters in Rome, but we haven't a classical theater like this. Shakespeare is the birth of theater.

ZAHN: While she's visited London's version many times, this was the professor's first glimpse of the Roman replica.

ISENBERG: As I approached a very family part of the park, and saw this white structure, this white and wooden structure growing up, which I know well, it was like being in a magic world.

ZAHN: Construction began less than four months ago. And the materials they used, while normal for Americans, turned out to be completely foreign for Romans.

ISENBERG: Because in Italy, they no longer build with wood. They haven't built with wood for over 100 years. A building with wood is no longer studied by people who are going to be architects or engineers. So this is absolutely unusual.

ZAHN: The first production in this novel open-air theater? A love store, of course. And, of course, it's set in Italy, "Romeo and Juliet."

Opening night was scheduled for tonight. But, over the weekend, the holes were still being drilled. The wood was still being cut. The props were still being arranged. And because the costumes weren't ready yet, most of the cast was still wearing their street clothes, except for the beautiful Juliet.

VALENTINA MARZIALI, ACTRESS (through translator): It's a big responsibility. You really feel like you're doing Shakespeare. It's the same structure. We can understand what the actors were really doing. Juliet has always been my dream. I feel like I just fell into the part, into the place. It really feels like we're in the 1600s.

ZAHN: Her on-stage love, Romeo.

ALESSANAO AVERONE, ACTOR (through translator): I think Shakespeare would be happy with our show.

ZAHN: So did they finish everything in time for opening night? Of course they did. And how wonderful to hear the words of the bard in Rome in a replica of his theater, not in the in the Queen's English, but in the language of love.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: More from Paula tomorrow night in Rome as we continue or coverage of the 25-year milestone of the Pope Jean Paul II.

A bit later tonight, we'll show you the surprising way one of America's most well-known names in guns is trying to tap into a market that might surprise you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Are Americans getting a complete picture from the news media of what's happening on the ground in Iraq?

President Bush says he does not think so. In an interview yesterday, the president said there's a sense that people are not getting the truth. So then the question tonight is the coverage balanced. John Fund is a columnist for the "Wall Street Journal," opinionjournal.com.

Good evening John, nice to see you.

Peter Beinard back with us as editor of "New Republic" with us as well in D.C. Peter good evening to you.

John, why don't you start us off. Does the president have a point and so where is it?

JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, OPINIONJOURNAL.COM: We're getting an accurate representation of the bad news, but remember the old journalist cliche, if it bleeds it leads. And since now coverage of Iraq is going to be only 30 seconds a night or 90 seconds a night, obviously wire covering the most spectacular things. The fact is one American is dying a day in Iraq, that's one too many, It's horrible. But remember after World War II we had Japanese fighting on islands for years afterwards. This is a necessary but unfortunate cost to bare.

HEMMER: So I'm not quite sure on your opinion. Is the media fair or not?

FUND: Well, there is a lot of good things happening in Iraq that you can't put into 30 or 90 seconds. The reconstruction is going forward. The oil industry is coming back on-line. There are an awful lot of experts from all around the world from dozen of countries helping out. We're six months into it. It's a long painful process. We're not getting that story.

Peter what do you think, fair or not, in your opinion?

PETER BEINART, EDITOR, THE NEW REPUBLIC: You can't blame the media for focusing on what happens to America in Iraq. And the situation in Iraq is the security situation and it's dire. It's actually worst than John, presented, because it's not just one a day. In fact the number of wounded is far, far higher. The ratio of wounded to dead is extraordinarily high. The number of attacks are much higher than actually reported in the U.S., because the military doesn't say how many there are. And the security situation can't be delinked from the infrastructure situation, because it's precisely because of the security situation you're not going to get foreign investments. A group of American senators last week weren't even allowed to stay in Baghdad for one night because it was considered too dangerous.

HEMMER: Peter, I think there's to sides of that coin. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) just a second here. If you're saying it's actually worse than being reported, could it also be better than what's being reported also, if you consider that these reporters, many of them tell us they want to go cover the new school opening, but they can't because there's another bombing or shooting and that prevents them from sending that story?

BEINART: There are infrastructure improvements going on, no question. It's not back to PRESS: levels, yet, but it will get back to pre-war levels. It's moving in the right direction. But the security situation unfortunately most people seem to think is actually deteriorating. There are more attacks, they are better orchestrated, and we're not getting very many foreign troops in there. So I think it's to say what we're not reporting is only the good news, I think is unfortunately too optimistic?

FUND: There was a lot of bad news after Germany and Japan fell, and we had to reorganize their reconstruction. Look, six months ago, the vast majority reporters who were covering the Gulf War, got the story largely wrong, especially foreign entities like the BBC. They thought the U.S. would have an awful time fighting Iraq. They thought it would take months. It didn't. So, at least have a little bit of skepticism on the kind of reporting right now. I'm not saying it's inaccurate. I'm saying we're not getting the full story.

BEINART: If you want to raise that point, should we also not say that the Bush administration got it massively wrong as well. Paul Wolfowitz said that reconstruction would be easy and pay for itself.

FUND: Mistakes were...

BEINART: And the Bush Administration said there was an active nuclear weapons (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and weapons of mass destruction, so let's not say there was only the news media...

FUND: Peter, We're not discussing that tonight. We're discussing the media. The Bush administration -- the Bush administration low balled the estimate.

BEINART: The Bush administration said we should trust them.

HEMMER: Hang on a second, gentlemen. Lets break it down just a little bit.

John, answer that question.

Was the White House wrong in not preparing the American people for what we're now seeing, and is there blame that lies there because of it?

FUND: Like any salesman, they low ball the estimates. It's going to be vastly more expensive and it's going to take longer. All we had to do was look at Kosovo and Bosnia. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing. It doesn't mean it's necessary. That doesn't mean having the first stable democracy in that part of them Middle East, won't pay benefits for decades to come.

Peter, the last word. We are almost out of time.

BEINART: Absolutely. I think we have to rebuild Iraq. I think it's shameful that some of the Democrats and Republicans don't want to spend the money, but that has nothing to do with the media portraying it as it is, which is much harder than the Bush administration told the country.

HEMMER: Well will leave it there. Gentlemen, thanks to both of you. Nice discussion. John Fund and Peter Bienart with us tonight live in Washington. Thank you man.

In a moment, something that's not exactly the ordinary Christmas catalog. We'll tell you how an icon in the gun making business is trying to reinvent it self.

Also, is sneaking around with your cell phone camera a potential invasion of privacy? What if you put the pictures on the Internet? What then?

Back in moment, our own little survey tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: It appears that Smith & Wesson is aiming for a new target audience, a catalogue called "Crossings" contains items you would not expect from a gun company. Women's jewelry, gifts, even accessories for the home involved there.

Let's give our truth squad a shot at this tonight. Denis Riney, executive vice president and worldwide marketing director of FutureBrand is with us tonight, good to see you. Good evening to you.

DENIS RINEY, EXEC. VP, FUTUREBRAND: Bill.

HEMMER: What's behind this right now?

RINEY: Well, looks like Smith & Wesson is trying to capitalize on the 90 percent awareness that the brand has across American consumers, and take that brand into new categories to generate revenue above and beyond the handgun product.

HEMMER: What does it say about the handgun business now, though, for Smith & Wesson, if they have to go in this direction for a new revenue stream?

RINEY: Well, you know, clearly the brand, as I said, is well- known. It also represents things like freedom, independence, and to some extent American heritage. So why not find a way to capitalize on that with other products.

HEMMER: It's my understanding that handgun sales are way down. Is that accurate?

RINEY: I think so. Yes, and obviously they want to try to get some new revenue sources with cross-licensing of products.

HEMMER: Does it soften the image of Smith & Wesson?

RINEY: Well, I would characterize Smith & Wesson, along with Harley and Hummer and perhaps Marlboro as bad-boy brands who are trying to clean up their image. As you know, those companies, Harley and Hummer specifically, have tried over the last several years to become more kind of celebrity or almost yuppyfied types of brands. Same thing here.

HEMMER: Some of these pictures on the Internet here. And some of the things you are seeing in the catalogue. How do you think it will do?

RINEY: I think they have a pretty good shot. I mean, they have raw awareness, which always helps. At least people will recognize who the company is all about, and I think they'll probably do OK this -- over the course of the season.

HEMMER: Do you think if this catalog does well, in turn do they sell more guns and help that business too, or not?

RINEY: Well, they could risk alienating the hard-core sort of base of gun owners, to say, gee, are Smith & Wesson going soft on us or not. So we'll see.

HEMMER: All right, good to see you, Denis. Thanks for coming in tonight. Denis Riney, talking about Smith & Wesson and their new move coming soon.

In a moment here, spying on people with your camera phone. We'll see how some people are testing the limits of other people's privacy.

Also, a dozen presidents, over more than 50 years, how presidential aircraft have helped to change the history. A new book is out. We'll talk about it a bit later.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Time to say cheese tonight. Cell phone cameras all the rage these days, you can see the ads on CNN throughout the day here, but it turns out the technology have people worried about more than just red eye, about the possibility of invasion of privacy. We checked it out a bit earlier today. Have a look here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just press this camera button right here. HEMMER (voice-over): I got a quick lesson from Sprint's Kathleen Dunleavy (ph). In a matter of minutes, the system was easy to figure out, and even easier to snap off a few shots in an afternoon staff meeting. In a matter of seconds, the photos are uploaded to a Web site, then e-mailed to anyone of your choice. And the ease of that system is what has some people concerned.

Is it just fun technology or an invasion of privacy?

Now, the quality is not perfect, but it's good enough. And good enough for unsuspecting colleagues with big offices. Smile.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: New definition of 360 there tonight.

From Philly to talk about it, Gary Dann, an avid camera phone user, even has his own Web site, a site where he posts pictures almost every day. How are you, Gary, good evening to you.

GARY DANN, CAMERA CELL PHONE USER: How are you doing, Bill?

HEMMER: I'm doing just fine.

DANN: I'm sorry that I couldn't talk to Paula tonight.

HEMMER: Oh, well, I'll pass along your regrets to her. She's half the world away in Rome. But you only get me tonight. Sorry about that. Why did you start this idea?

DANN: Why did I start documenting with pictures? I just thought it was a really interesting idea. Camera phones, they've only been out for about a year. It's a new technology. Basically has the potential to change the face of modern photography, just the same way color photography did, and digital cameras did. It's gone from your typical person taking a roll of film at their cousin's birthday party, for instance, and putting it in some drawers, you know, after they develop it, to people taking pictures throughout their day and making a daily journal of precious moments of their life.

HEMMER: And, Gary, what if people don't want their picture taken?

DANN: Then -- I don't really know. If you're talking about ...

HEMMER: What if they ask you not to use it, would you listen to them?

DANN: Oh, yeah. If they don't want me to take their picture, that's fine. If you're talking about voyeurs and spycam people, I don't really get into that. I'm more here to talk about the art of it, and the art of documentation.

HEMMER: Sure. But isn't it true, you took a picture of an obese woman buying Weight Watchers, was that voyeuristic? DANN: That might have been slightly voyeuristic. I was in a grocery store. I thought it was funny. I thought people might get a kick out of it. But to be honest with you, that's about 2 percent of the photos that I take. The photos that I take are more of an artistic expression, more of documentation of my existence, or our existence.

HEMMER: So take the 2 percent and take this woman buying Weight Watchers, do you think that was an invasion of privacy?

DANN: An invasion of her privacy?

HEMMER: Yeah.

DANN: Possibly. But then again, if you put yourself out there, there's cameras everywhere when you go to the...

HEMMER: She wasn't putting herself out there, was she?

DANN: Probably not, but I mean, think about it. Why is this coming up right now? Digital cameras have been around for a long time now, and even just regular photography. What's the difference between somebody taking a picture with a regular camera and a zoom lens from somebody way across the street, and definitely infringing on their privacy that way, and posting that on the Internet.

HEMMER: You know technology, right, Gary...

DANN: The technology makes it very fast and easy for someone to do and post it up.

HEMMER: And the quality is only going to improve. Right? And the better it gets, the more intrusive it becomes. Right? Would you agree with that?

DANN: I'm sure. And within five years, I'm sure these camera phones will have impeccable zoom and flash and all sorts of things, whereas right now you can only take an image about four feet away or up close, something like that. Of course, the technology is going to get better and cheaper for everybody, and it's going to be a problem, but it's not necessarily a problem that didn't exist before. I mean, this has always existed. Anybody can take video or spycam pictures of people with a regular camera. It doesn't really matter if it's a cell phone camera, regardless. I can take a regular digital camera picture just as fast, put it up online, plug it in...

HEMMER: Well, the courts often uphold the right to photograph in public, so they might be on your side on this one. Gary Dann, your Web site is up and running, thanks for sharing your story. And I will give your best to Paula. I promise.

DANN: Yeah, thanks.

HEMMER: Talk to you later.

Air Force One, one of America's most famous symbols, will relive some of history's most compelling moments, on board that world famous aircraft. In a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Over the past 40 years, the planes known as Air Force One have become icons known around the world, places where history has been made on board. Think of Lyndon Johnson taking the oath of office back in the early '60s. Richard Nixon flying off to California after resigning in D.C. President Bush's tense flight back on 9/11. All that history and more is recounted in a new book, "Air Force One: The Aircraft That Shaped the Modern Presidency."

With us tonight the author, Von Hardesty, curator of the National Air and Space Museum. And Bob Schieffer of CBS News who wrote the foreword and has traveled many times on board that great plane. Good evening gentleman, great to have you here. You have some terrific quotes in this book. I think it was Jack Valenti. He says there were two images of the president, the White House is one and the Air Force One is the other.

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS NEWS: That's really true. This airplane has been in the background of the television picture of most of the major events of our time. When Richard Nixon went to China the first picture you saw was Air Force One coming into view when he landed. When Jack Kennedy's body was brought back from Dallas, that fateful day, you saw Air Force One in the back, the picture you just showed. The last picture of Richard Nixon as president that Americans saw was when he stepped onto Air Force One. It's like the White House. It's like the Washington Monument. It's really a part of our culture.

HEMMER: I want to go back to this LBJ picture in November of 1963, Von.

What does that picture speak to you and say to you as part of that book?

VON HARDESTY, AUTHOR, "AIR FORCE ONE": Is this the one where he's been sworn in?

HEMMER: That's exactly right.

HARDESTY: Well, that was one of the most dramatic moment. And Jack Valenti was inside the fuselage there. If you look at that picture closely you can see him kind of nestled on the left side there. But this is this dramatic moment before they flew back to Washington with a casket of the deceased president. And Kennedy ask, Jacqueline the first lady, to be at his side when he was sworn in. And it's just an incredibly compelling moment in American history.

HEMMER: Based on the history you write in the book, FDR took the first flight on what was then considered Air Force One. Went to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Conference in the mid 1940s, and the second world war.

How did you know the transformation for this plane, this aircraft, changed the role of the presidency, not just for Americans but for people around the world? SCHIEFFER: Von should talk about that, but basicly they didn't start calling it Air Force One until Jack Kennedy came along, and actually Mrs. Kennedy thought it wasn't all that appropriate for an American president to be seen in a military airplane. And I guess she was one of the inspiration for the design of the aircraft as it is now.

HARDESTY: She got Raymond Lily (ph), a famous industrial designer to do that distinctive blue, white and silvery, which is so well known with Air Force one today. Very stylish look. Very consistent with the youthful imagery of the Kennedy years.

HEMMER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) stories. What was the throne with LBJ?

What was that all about this seat?

HARDESTY: It was actually the seat that the president sat in, because I think it had a button where it could rise and go up and down, and other places, that's not always what you designate as the throne, but on Air Force One, it became known as that in LBJ's aircraft.

HEMMER: What about the hotter-cooler switch?

SCHIEFFER: It was interesting, Johnson got on the plane one day very upset. He could never get the temperature right. And he went to the engineer and said I want a separate air conditioning system for this compartment, and they said yes sir, Mr. President. Well, they knew that was impossible, so basically they put a switch in there that said hotter or colder. The president could turn it one way or another, but all it did is a light came on the flight engineer's panel, and then adjusted temperature on the whole airplane.

HEMMER: You've flown on it many times. What is it like?

There's nothing quite like it.

Do you feel the gravity?

SCHIEFFER: What is interesting is to get off the aircraft. The reporters always get off at the back. When Air Force One lands, it's like the circus has come to town. Hamilton Jordan, who was Jimmy Carter's Chief of Staff, says this is the presidency-plus. People -- one time traveling with Gerald Ford, we got off the airplane and it was during a political campaign. I found a campaign poster on the tarmac. I picked it up and it said "Come see Air Force One" in great big letters. Down at the bottom in smaller letters it also announced that President Ford would be there. This thing is a real drawing card. And when it comes to town, everybody wants to see it.

HEMMER: You always discovery something you never thought you would find when you do books like these. Anything that sticks out in your mind that you discovered that said, "wow did not know that?"

HARDESTY: Well, it gives you a sense of history. This is the centennial year of aviation. In December we'll celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers. But when you look back it is Wright flier, the spirit of Saint Louis, and Air Force One are the enduring airplanes in the popular imagination.

SCHIEFFER: What is so interesting, Bill, each president sets the tone and the atmosphere for the airplane. For Richard Nixon, it was a place of seclusion. Gerald Ford was the most convivial president. He would often come back and have a drink with the reporters who ride at the back of the plane.

HARDESTY: When you fly in Air Force One you know you are the president.

SCHIEFFER: But the greatest difference was when Hillary Clinton would fly on the airplane, the menu was generally caesar salad with dressing on the side. When the president was there and she wasn't, you would get a good cheeseburger, great steak.

HEMMER: I wish we had more time. Von Hardesty, thanks. Bob Schieffer, pleasure. Thank you gentleman for sharing tonight.

And thank you for being with us. See you tomorrow bright and early 7:00 a.m. on American Morning. Here's Paula tonight with one final world -- Paula.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we be here tomorrow and Thursday for the celebrations. And also tomorrow we will bring you an interview with Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington D.C.

Given the new safe guards you say are in place. Can you guarantee to a mother and father that their child will not be hurt by a priest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can guarantee to a mother and father that the church has done and will continue to do everything that society makes possible for it to do to prevent this from happening. Now can I say there will never be a problem, I can't say that. There can be a problem with a doctor, with a teacher, with a track coach, a problem with anybody. But certainly, I believe now there is no profession in American society that has the safe guards that the Catholic priesthood all over our country to make sure this will never happen again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com



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