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NEXT@CNN
Librarians Speak Out Against The Patriot Act; Congestion Around Nation Is Frustrating Daily Commutors; A Look At Iraq's Oil Infrastructure
Aired October 5, 2003 - 17:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to NEXT@CNN for this Sunday, October 5th. I'm Andrea Koppel. And coming up in this hour, we'll look at the shape of Iraq's oil infrastructure as Congress considers allocating lots of your tax dollars to pump it up.
If your commute is getting worse, you're not alone. We'll look at the new report that shows how much time we spend tied up in traffic.
And you may think of librarians as a quiet bunch, but some of them are pretty vocal when it comes to the anti-terrorism Patriot Act. The act allows the Feds to read over your shoulders, so to speak, when you check out library books. Does that protect America or invade Americans' privacy?
But first, President Bush is asking Congress to allocate $87 billion for U.S. activities in Iraq, with about $20 billion of that earmarked for reconstruction. Among the first priorities will be to pump some money into rebuilding and expanding Iraq's struggling oil industry. Where does this vital sector find itself six months after the fall of Saddam Hussein?
Joining us now from Washington to help us better understand what is going on is James Placke, a former diplomat who is currently with the Cambridge Energy Research Associates. Mr. Placke, good to see you.
JAMES PLACKE, CAMBRIDGE ENERGY ASSOCIATES: Thank you.
KOPPEL: It has been six months now since the U.S. overthrew Saddam Hussein. What is the current status of the oil industry?
PLACKE: Well, the oil industry remains in a pretty bad state of repair, not because of the war, but because of the neglect of the last 15 to 20 years, really going back to the period of the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. And then I think perhaps, most importantly, the looting and sabotage that has occurred since the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime.
KOPPEL: What you've just outlined there -- or at least the beginning part was outlined in today's "New York Times," which said there was a study done well before the war by the Pentagon which said that Iraq's oil industry was in horrible disrepair. Why was the administration so surprised when it got into Iraq? PLACKE: Well, my understanding is that study was actually done at the State Department as part of its Future of Iraq project. No one should have been surprised at all. There were two studies prior to that done under U.N. auspices by a Dutch oil services firm working for the U.N.
Kofi Annan, following the second of those two reports, characterized the condition of the Iraqi industry to the Security Council as lamentable. I think that's a very appropriate adjective.
KOPPEL: Among the obstacles that are out there for getting the industry on track are certainly security. The there are folks in the industry who say, we can't position people, guards every 200 yards. We don't have that kind of manpower. How do you get the industry up and running as quickly as possible?
PLACKE: Well, security is the principal concern; there's no question about that. Iraq could be producing more oil today and certainly exporting more oil today than it is if the security situation permitted.
What the solution to that is, I think, it's part of the broader solution to security in the country overall, and it's quite right that you can't put a guard by every police station, every bridge, every pipeline, every water plant. So the question of security is much wider. And I think the solution has to be on a national basis.
KOPPEL: I'm sure many of our viewers are saying, gosh, you know they're coming back to us to foot the bill. In the meantime, what is a realistic timetable to get the industry up and functioning in a really viable way?
PLACKE: Well, our best estimate is that, assuming the security situation improves substantially -- and that's a critical assumption -- that the industry would get back to about where it was before the U.S. invasion by the end of next year. That is, the end of 2004.
KOPPEL: All right. Well, I'm sure many people are going to be watching that closely. James Placke, joining us tonight from Washington. Thank you, sir, for coming in.
PLACKE: You're welcome.
KOPPEL: If you think traffic is getting worse, you are right. And a new study proves it. Each year the Texas Transportation Institute, which is based at Texas A&M, crunches the numbers to find out exactly how much time we're wasting in traffic.
Tim Lomax is here with the highlights from this year's urban mobility report. Mr. Lomax, I heard one of the numbers out there. Some folks are spending 50 hours in traffic every year?
TIM LOMAX, TEXAS TRANSPORTATION INSTITUTE: That's the average if you take the national average commute, 25 minutes, back and forth to work. That's how much time -- extra time you spend on the roads every year. KOPPEL: And what, if anything, can states do to try to improve that figure? In other words, lessen the amount of time that folks are spending in traffic.
LOMAX: I think there's a whole range of solutions. You're probably going to need more roads, probably going to need more public transit. Probably going to get both of those to operate more efficiently so that we can as much out of the system as we can.
But things like flex time and telecommuting, ways to get people to travel at times other than the peak. And changing the lane (ph) use patterns might also be part of the solution, but there isn't really a panacea solution that fits all.
KOPPEL: Is it that traffic is really getting worse, or is just that it feels like it's getting worse?
LOMAX: I think it's both cases. Traffic is getting worse. We show traffic congestion tripling over the last couple decades.
But also, the system is becoming less reliable. So you really can't predict how much time it takes you to get somewhere. And I think that has a big bearing on the frustration level.
KOPPEL: When this report came out, on a personal note, I saw Washington, D.C., where I live, is rated number three. And I wasn't surprised in the least. Were there any surprises for you in terms of perhaps cities that have improved their records?
LOMAX: Well, places that really do an aggressive job of operating the system or get a lot out of their public transportation have shown some improvement, or at least they're not getting bad as quickly. I think the thing that surprises us is that congestion grows in cities of all sizes. Even cities under half a million have seen an increase in congestion.
KOPPEL: I know we can all speak from a personal level as to why we find it so annoying to sit there in bumper-to-bumper traffic. But are there any reasons beyond that why bad traffic should matter?
LOMAX: Well, I think the freight movement is a key to our economy. And to the extent that you don't know how long it's going to take you or you have to plan for additional trucks, or you to change the manufacturing processes to deal with traffic congestion, I think that's a problem. I think that's where, again, more roads, more transit, operating the system more efficiently, has got to be part of the solution.
KOPPEL: In our remaining seconds, I'm going to look to you for a solution. How can we better spend that time that we're stuck behind the wheel in bumper-to-bumper traffic? Do you have any tips?
LOMAX: You know, don't use your cell phone, because you could cause an accident. Find a nice radio station that you like to listen to and try to mellow out a little bit. KOPPEL: Yes, listen to that classical music rather than the hard rock. Tim Lomax, joining us from College Station, Texas, thanks so much.
LOMAX: Sure.
KOPPEL: With the California recall almost upon us, a lot of people are betting on the outcome. When we come back, find out how you can get in on the action, so to speak.
Later in the program, we'll show you some of the hardest working dog in the sheep herding business.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: In less than 48 hours, Californians will start voting on whether to recall Governor Gray Davis. Think you can predict the outcome? Well, now you can bet on it, stock market style. Play money Web sites allow users to bet on possible future events, like whether President Bush will remain in office or if there will be a cure for cancer by 2010.
Robin Hanson was a pioneer in the development in these sites, and he joins us now. So Mr. Hanson, explain how this works.
ROBIN HANSON, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: Well, there are play money Web sites where we give you some play money, and you basically bet on what you want to bet on. So there might be an asset that pay off, say, 100 units, play money dollars, if Schwarzenegger wins the California election. If you at the moment pay 80 cents on the dollar for that, if you're right, you'll make 20 cents.
KOPPEL: Now, again, just to emphasize it folks, the site that you just mentioned there, this is all play money. But there actually are some sites where folks can gamble real money.
HANSON: Absolutely. There absolutely are. Offshore sites mostly.
KOPPEL: What makes the play money site so enjoyable? What do you find -- there are about, what, 2,000 people I guess estimated who regularly log on to this site.
HANSON: The Foresight Exchange has about 6,000 people registered, perhaps 2,000 regularly playing. The main charmer of the play money of the Foresight Exchange is that you can make up the questions you want to bet on. So people have contributed questions about foundational physics or cosmology, nature of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). People bet on whether cancer is going to be cured, a wide variety of things.
KOPPEL: Now, on that last question, if you're betting on something as intangible about whether about cancer is going to be cured, you're going to be waiting for a long time to see the outcome of that bet, aren't you?
LOMAX: Well, you might have it whether it's going to be cured by 2005 or cured by 2010 or something like that.
KOPPEL: Well, for something like Tuesday's California recall, for example, can these exchanges be relied on for any kind of accurate predictions?
LOMAX: Well, they're certainly better than flipping a coin. They're perhaps even better than asking talking heads on TV. Some people have done some studies, and they actually often do remarkably well.
The Hollywood Stock Exchange predicts Oscar winners. And it's actually predicted them as well as luminaries predicting in columns.
KOPPEL: So is his more like a stock market or is it more like just old fashioned gambling?
LOMAX: Well, it's like old fashioned gambling, but honestly, the stock market is a lot like old fashioned gambling as well. It just serves perhaps a useful function.
KOPPEL: You're absolutely right. But I guess at least in your case folk don't have to worry about losing the money that they would if they were gambling in the stock market?
LOMAX: That's right. The play money markets are fun. They let you express your opinions. They let you sort of compare yourself to other people.
But perhaps the pressure is down a little bit. Now people would say that perhaps that's why they're perhaps not as accurate.
KOPPEL: So what are the odds right now for Schwarzenegger winning in the recall?
LOMAX: Well, like I said, about 80 percent. He's pretty much a shoe-in.
KOPPEL: OK. All right. We will see the real results. Robin Hanson, thank you so much for joining us this evening.
LOMAX: You're most welcome.
KOPPEL: Lots more to come in our next half hour of NEXT@CNN, including librarians in an uproar. They're upset about Uncle Sam surprising on your reading habits.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: The Patriot Act was passed to give federal authorities expanded tools to fight terrorism. But now librarians known for insisting on quiet are speaking up, voicing concern that the Patriot Act could be used to invade your privacy and put them in an uncomfortable spot.
Here to tell us more about these concerns is Carla Hayden. She is the executive director of the Library Association. Thank you so much for joining us this evening
CARLA HAYDEN, AMERICAN LIBRARY ASSOCIATION: Thank you for having us on.
KOPPEL: Ms. Hayden, explain -- I want you just to kind of lay things out for us, frame the issue for us. What does this, your concerns, have to do wit the Patriot Act?
HAYDEN: Well, our concerns are the public's concerns, because we are concerned about the citizen's right to privacy in all of their interaction in the community, especially, of course, in our environment in the library. And we want to people to get the full benefit of their use of the library without fearing big brother looking over their shoulders.
KOPPEL: John Ashcroft, the attorney general, has been asked about these concerns and pretty much dismissed them earlier -- just, in fact, last month. Let's listen to what he had to say. I want to get your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: This kind of baseless hysteria has convinced the American Library Association that under the bipartisan Patriot Act the FBI is not fighting terrorism. Instead, agents are checking out how far you've gotten in the latest Tom Clancy novel.
Now, you may have thought with all this hysteria and hyperbole that something must be wrong. In fact, the Justice Department has neither the inclination nor the time to inquire as to the reading habits of Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: Are you and others, Ms. Hayden, just being hysterical?
HAYDEN: No. We were disappointed at his choice of words, of course, because it plays into the stereotypes of librarians as a female-dominated profession. But what we are more concerned about, and what he really tried to sidestep, were the larger concerns, in that we're just representing the general public and what they are feeling about it. So we're saddened that he would take that tact, but at least it brought the issue to the forefront.
KOPPEL: Now, you are not signing any kind of Hippocratic Oath, but you do have a code of ethics. Explain that to us.
HAYDEN: Yes, we do. We believe that everyone has the right to get the information they want without interference. And that everyone could read or look at computers and make sure that they get the information they need for their lives. And that's a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that we really believe in.
KOPPEL: Ms. Hayden, we've got about 15 seconds. If you could just lay out for us what your greatest concern is, if, in fact, you are forced to allow the federal government to go forward with what it wants to do regarding the Patriot Act.
HAYDEN: The greatest concern is that the individual who's being investigated will not even know that their library records or their computer use is being reviewed. And is that really nothing that we want to really have. I don't think anybody wants that.
KOPPEL: Dr. Carla Hayden, executive director of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Free Library in Baltimore, and the president of the American Library Association, thank you so much for coming in this evening.
HAYDEN: Thank you.
KOPPEL: And coming up, an invasion threatens the world's remaining orangutans. We'll tell you about that and talk with a woman who is trying to save them when NEXT@CNN returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: Facing multiple threats in a declining habitat, orangutans could be facing extinction some day soon. Joining us now from Boston is Cheryl Knott. She is a biological anthropologist for Harvard University and the National Geographic Society.
Whenever we here about species on the brink of extinction, a lot of what we see and hear comes from various conservationists who live thousands of miles away from these sites. But you have been there. What have you heard from locals in Indonesia and Malaysia? Do they appreciate the state of the orangutan?
CHERYL KNOTT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well -- hi, Andrea -- yes. A lot of the local people are very concerned about orangutans and what's happened to them. But actually, most of the people in the villages and the towns surrounding the area where we work really do not have any environmental education. And that's why we've really focused a lot of our efforts on environmental education and conservation awareness.
And we bring school groups, for example, into the study site. They can see wild orangutans for the first time. Even though they live in these villages, they have never even seen one. And they spend a few days there and they really get to have some pride about the fact that these magnificent animals are only found in (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So we're really trying to raise that conservation awareness in the local area.
KOPPEL: Have you seen that change, the way that they are reacting to what's happening to the orangutan?
KNOTT: Well, people get really excited, so kids, as well as adults that go up there, that see the animals for the first time, and that also learn about the fact that they're not found in America -- people often ask me things like, well, why don't you study orangutans in America? So they think often that they are in our forests.
So they learn that they are only found on these two islands, and it gives them a lot of pride. They really then, I think, are starting to work towards trying to save them. And we are trying to build up the local indigenous people and their ability to help save the species.
KOPPEL: Dr. Knott, the report itself sounds pretty bleak. Are these animals doomed or is this, you know -- is there hope?
KNOTT: Well, my message is really that there is hope. It is a bleak future if we don't do anything. But we really need to focus our efforts, our protection efforts on those areas that still have viable populations. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE), where I work, is one of those areas that's really important to protect. If we do that, them I think there is hope.
KOPPEL: Dr. Knott, I apologize. We have about 30 seconds. Why should folks in Oklahoma or Boston or Cincinnati care about what happens to orangutans?
KNOTT: Well, I think they should care because, first, as humans, we're the dominate species. We should be able to protect the other species on the planet. Also because they're so closely related to us. And because protecting them protects all the other plants and animals in the areas where they're found.
KOPPEL: And they are such a beautiful creature. Dr. Cheryl Knott, thank you for coming in on this abbreviated edition of NEXT@CNN. We thank you for your research and for your insights.
For hundreds of years, they've worked hand and paw, shepherds and their dogs working farms and ranches all over the world. And for almost that long, farmers have set up competitions to see who owned the top dog, usually a Border Collie.
Well, this weekend in north Georgia, working dogs from all over the U.S. competed in a herding competition. The goal for the dogs and their handlers is to move sheep or cattle safely and then deliver them to a pen in a certain amount of time.
Now, many dogs have lightning speed and can respond to a dozen or more whistles and voice commands. They are smart and they can think on their own. Just what makes a Border Collie tick?
Well, we get some insight on them from Dr. Lore Haug, a veterinarian at Texas A&M University, and an expert in animal behavior. Thank you so much for joining us, doctor. I wanted to ask you, what is it about the Border Collie that makes it -- that gives it that ability to hear, as we were just saying, 12 different whistles and to think on its own?
LORE HAUG, VETERINARIAN: Well, most dogs actually are quite, in some ways, a lot more intelligent than people give them credit for. Learning a dozen commands is just child's play for a dog. Most dogs could probably easily learn three, four, five times that many commands without any stretch of their brainpower whatsoever.
But the Border Collie in particular has been bred for generations to do that particular job, which is to work closely with the human. And they have a lot of sort of natural skills that are related to predatory behavior that allows them to easily move animals in large groups like that.
KOPPEL: What are some of those skills that set them apart from the average dog?
HAUG: Again, they are a breed that is designed to work closely with a human and take direction, but yet also be able to make decisions on their own. But additionally, if you watch a Border Collie work, they have a very particular manner in which they work sheep and other animals.
It's what people call the eye. It's almost a stalking type behavior, where they crouch closely to the ground, they stare very intently at the animals. And, as I said, that is sort of a natural threat behavior because it's related to perdation (ph). And most prey species, such as sheep and cattle, are going to respond naturally to that to some degree.
KOPPEL: Now, before any of our viewers decides, I want to get a Border Collie, you have some advice for them in terms of what type of -- the fact that they don't make good pets. Is that right?
HAUG: That's correct. That's not to say that some Border Collies don't make very good family pets. But in general as I said, his is a breed that has been bred for generations to work, to have a job. They're extremely intelligent. They require very large amounts of exercise and training, and they need something to do.
They're not the kind of animal that is going to be content to go home and stay at home alone all day and then sit on the couch with you while you watch sports in the evening. This is a dog that needs something to do constantly. And if you don't give them a constructive job to do, as an owner, they will find a job to do. And it's usually something that is quite unpleasant from the owner's perspective.
KOPPEL: Yes. I guess fetching your slippers wouldn't be enough to keep them occupied.
HAUG: Not hardly.
KOPPEL: Dr. Lore Haug, thank you so much for joining us tonight from Texas.
HAUG: You're welcome.
KOPPEL: Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for now. But before we go, here is a peek at what's coming up next weekend.
With the Bengal tiger found in a New York apartment this week, we'll look at why some people insist on keeping exotic animals as pets. Daniel Sieberg will be your host next weekend, Saturday at 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time and Sunday at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. Hope you'll tune in.
And thanks so much for joining us today.
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