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CNN NEWSNIGHT AARON BROWN
Seven Die in Chicago Shooting; Geoghan Told Prison Officials He Feared Murder; Ten Commandments Monument Moved From Public View
Aired August 27, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
We reporters like to say we're writing the first draft of history. In truth, most of those first drafts never make the history book.
Forty years from now, no one but the families of the victims will remember the terrible tragedy of what happened in a Chicago factory today. No one but the protesters will remember what happened in Montgomery with the Ten Commandments monument or even California's recall.
But 40 years ago today, the reporters writing the leads for the great papers and the big networks were writing the history of the times. Forty years ago was the March on Washington and Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech.
Not even the best reporter or the best editor could have imagined the impact of that moment.
It's not where we begin tonight, of course, but we will get there before we're done.
We begin the whip with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- deadly workplace shooting in Chicago, as we mentioned. Jeff Flock covering that for us tonight. Jeff, start us with a headline, please.
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chilling, Aaron, to anyone who's been in a workplace where someone gets fired, the fear they come back at some point and take it out on the whole staff. I will have the who's and the why's on the latest one here in Chicago.
BROWN: Jeff, thank you, we'll get to you at the top tonight.
On to the drama now in Alabama. The Ten Commandments monument is moved. David Mattingly in Montgomery again. David, a headline.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the monument has been moved, but the demonstrations outside the building are staying put for now. They're turning their attention to the elections and the courts, Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And to California, and efforts by Arnold Schwarzenegger to shore up support among Republicans. Dan Lothian on that again tonight. So Dan, a headline.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, Arnold Schwarzenegger was out making the rounds on radio. And today, he was talking specifics about gay rights, prayer in schools, and the use of marijuana for medical reasons, Aaron.
BROWN: Dan, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on this Wednesday edition of NEWSNIGHT, did the Environmental Protection Agency the air near ground zero was safe before it knew for sure that it was safe? We'll look at the controversy and one angry New Yorker, a consummate New Yorker at that. Jimmy Breslin joins us.
As we said, the moment that electrified the civil rights movement 40 years ago today. We'll talk with a former aide of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Andrew Young. And CNN's Jonathan Karl talks with the youngest speaker at the Washington March, now Congressman John Lewis.
And, of course, a nightly look at morning papers. Experience a world of news without ever leaving your couch, or wherever it is that you are watching us tonight. All that and more in the hour ahead.
But we begin in Chicago. Seven people are dead tonight, one because he couldn't hold a job and couldn't contain his rage, but managed whatever small talent it takes to pick up a gun and use it, the other six because they showed up for work this morning.
We begin with CNN's Jeff Flock.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FLOCK (voice-over): The Chicago police hostage barricade team moves in to try and stop 36-year-old Salvador Tapia (ph). Six months ago, police say, fired from this auto supply parts business, today back with a Walther PP380 semiautomatic handgun and shooting at his old co-workers.
From the scene, it appears that he went throughout the supply warehouse, shooting them.
FLOCK: Police sharpshooters take up positions, and negotiators try to talk to him.
PAT CAMDEN, SPOKESMAN, CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT: We attempted to negotiate with him. He wouldn't -- he wanted no part of it.
FLOCK: When it was over, police say, Tapia had killed everyone he shot at, six in all, before police finally got him, storming the building and taking no chances even after the gunman had been fatally wounded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that time, the offender was handcuffed. Paramedics were already on the scene. He was taken to the hospital, where he was pronounced dead. FLOCK (on camera): By midday, still a lot of activity at what police describe as a very complicated crime scene. Perhaps you can see the building here now.
(voice-over): The warehouse, packed with bins of auto parts that police say was like a maze that Tapia moved through methodically. But the maze had only one way in and one way out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once he's inside and by that front door, he's got them cornered.
FLOCK: Arrested a dozen times since 1989, according to authorities, for gun possession, assault, domestic battery, most times Tapia beat the rap. What sparked this rampage, police don't know.
So far, they're unable to find his family, and most of his former co-workers are dead.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FLOCK: And so you have it, Aaron. This man tonight, no one's got a clear picture at this point just what went on with him six months ago, working there, and today, he chooses to return.
BROWN: Thank you very much, Jeff. Thank you. Not much more to say about that until they know more.
On now to the murder of John Geoghan, the former priest. Imagine, for a moment, being one of the other priests convicted and sent to prison in the abuse scandal. Already you had learned a few things about prison life, and where child molesters fit. And now you learn something else, the guards can't always protect you from people more than willing to kill you.
Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): State correction officials confirm they met with four former priests currently incarcerated in Massachusetts, serving time on molestation charges, including Ronald Packwin (ph) and Kelvin Iguabeda (ph). The state offered to move the men into protective custody.
Iguabeda's attorney says he was transferred to a hospital wing for one night. The status of the other three, unclear.
Their transfer offers followed John Geoghan's murder while he was in protective custody at another facility.
PETER COSTANZA, MASSACHUSETTS CORRECTION LEGAL SERVICES: One could argue that his death would have been avoided had the security people heeded some of the warnings that they received.
CARROLL: Prisoner's advocate Peter Costanza says he interviewed an inmate at Geoghan's facility. That inmate told him Geoghan was afraid of Joseph Druce, who, prosecutors say, admits to having killed the priest. Costanza said the inmate told him Druce had been plotting a crime against Geoghan since June, and that Geoghan said his fears regarding Druce were ignored by guards.
COSTANZA: Druce should never have been in the same unit as Geoghan to begin with.
CARROLL: Prison officials say they're conducting an investigation, but referred questions about the guards' conduct to the correction officers union, which did not return calls from CNN.
Geoghan's death not only raising questions about prison security, but the legal system as well. Though Geoghan was accused of molesting 150 boys, he was only convicted of abusing one 10-year-old boy. But under state law, that single conviction, which is under appeal, could now be voided because of Geoghan's murder.
MARIETTA DUSSOURD, MOTHER OF GEOGHAN'S ALLEGED VICTIM: It is an insult, a total insult to our intelligence, that they dare try to swipe this slate clean. How dare they!
CARROLL: As for Druce, his attorney says the murder was in retaliation for what Geoghan had done. Druce's attorney says he's considering an insanity defense.
Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: To Montgomery, Alabama, next. Today the Ten Commandments were finally moved, the protesters, most of them, at least, were not. It unfolded not far from where the Confederate president, Jefferson Davis, once stood in defiance of Washington, and where the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., preached civil disobedience.
There was something of both in the air in Montgomery today.
Here again, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): It was a moment that was months in the making. But in the end, it took less than 30 minutes to lift the monument to the Ten Commandments and roll it into storage, still inside the building, but out of public view.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put it pack!
MATTINGLY: Outside the Alabama Supreme Court Building, demonstrators reacted with anger and defiance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put it back!
MATTINGLY: Planned acts of civil disobedience did not happen, and there were no arrests. Instead, there were long moments of intensely emotional prayer. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lord, please, God, please, don't abandon us, God. Don't give us over to our enemies, God.
MATTINGLY: Attention now turns to political fallout. A written statement by Chief Justice Roy Moore criticized top state officials who refuse to join him in defying the court order.
REVEREND ROB SCHENCK, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CLERGY COUNCIL: There is a lot of explaining to do in this state. There is a governor who must explain himself. There is an attorney general who must explain himself.
MATTINGLY: Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor, who is at the center of criticism, defended the state's action to comply and avoid those steep federal fines.
BILL PRYOR, ALABAMA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I can't imagine how any lawyer in the state would be happy about the duty of presenting charges under the canons of judicial ethics against the highest judicial officer of the state. But as I explained, it is our duty, and we will do our duty.
MATTINGLY: And though the monument has been moved, organizers of the ongoing demonstrations are staying put, hoping to rally support, and with it, wield more political clout at the polls.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: But for now, they are going back to federal court again tomorrow in hopes of getting the injunction they couldn't get today. Down the road, they hope the Supreme Court will eventually hear arguments in this case and put the monument back where they believe it belongs, on public display in this public building, Aaron.
BROWN: And the court ultimately may take the case, and because the Ten Commandments law is sort of confusing, it may end up that way. In the meantime, these demonstrations, or this protest, is still going on tonight. Is there any plan for everybody just to go home now?
MATTINGLY: At this point, they are talking about actually continuing these demonstrations into next week. So they are making the most of their permit for these demonstrations, and settling in for the long haul, so to speak.
BROWN: David, thank you very much. David Mattingly in Montgomery, Alabama.
An item in the "Financial Times" caught our eye this afternoon. The International Monetary Fund, it reads, is warning the United States about the growing budget deficit, now moving toward a $500 billion and growing. And the cost of Iraq hasn't even been accounted for yet in total.
Today, however, the dimensions of the potential costs became a bit more real, and they are staggering. And in part, suggest why the administration is looking for significant help in paying the bills. Here's CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before the war, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stubbornly refused to even guess what the final cost might be.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: That is a question that, unfortunately, I, I, I believe is not knowable.
MCINTYRE: But the clear impression left by Pentagon officials was that putting Iraq back together wouldn't break the bank.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon.
MCINTYRE: The key word being "relatively." Iraq may be oil rich, but between the decrepit infrastructure and continued sabotage, it will be another two or three years before the expected $30 to $50 billion a year from oil exports flows into Iraqi coffers.
And remember the hundreds of millions of dollars in cash found by U.S. troops? That's all been spent, as well as most of a $6 billion budget allocated for reconstruction.
Meanwhile, the bills are piling up. According to U.S. administrator Paul Bremer, Iraq needs billions more now, $16 billion to fix the water supply, $13 billion to repair power stations. Not to mention the $4 billion a month it costs to maintain the 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Building a free and peaceful Iraq will require a substantial commitment of time and resources.
MCINTYRE: But where will those resources come from? U.S. taxpayers? Foreign donors? The White House won't say, because, for now, it doesn't know.
(on camera): In the short term, the Pentagon needs about $15 billion for Iraq. But with the federal budget deficit running at about $480 billion, and an election coming up, getting Congress to approve such a big appropriation may be problematic.
Administration sources say the White House will likely ask for a few billion at a time. But over time, that could add up to real money.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And on NEWSNIGHT tonight, some actual positions stated during the California recall campaign. You'll hear Arnold Schwarzenegger, on the record, on issues including gay marriage and more.
And later, 40 years after the March on Washington and Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech, what has changed. John Lewis and Andrew Young.
This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: On the David Letterman program earlier this week, one of the top 10 lists was top 10 things overheard at the Schwarzenegger campaign headquarters. This was number 9, "Your wife called to say there's no way in hell she's voting for you."
Maybe good for laughs, but the reality is something else. Big concern for the Schwarzenegger campaign isn't that he's too conservative for Democrats like his wife, Maria Shriver, it's that he's too liberal for the Republican base, a base he needs come October 7.
Mr. Schwarzenegger was working the base hard today. Here's CNN's Dan Lothian.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN (voice-over): Arnold Schwarzenegger has made a career of standing in front of the camera. But lately, his campaign to become governor has been confined to conservative radio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I am totally against raising taxes.
I am against the car tax.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LOTHIAN: The self-described fiscal conservative, thought to be moderate on social issues, has been criticized for being short on specifics. Now presented with a checklist of issues on the nationally syndicated Sean Hannity radio show, the actor-turned-politician began filling in the blanks.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Do you support gay marriage?
SCHWARZENEGGER: I do support domestic partnership.
HANNITY: But not gay marriage?
SCHWARZENEGGER: No. I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.
(END AUDIO CLIP) LOTHIAN: Schwarzenegger reiterated his pro-choice positions, said he did not support partial birth abortions, but did support parental notification, with some exceptions.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: In some cases, when there is abuse in the family, or problems in the family, then the court should decide.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LOTHIAN: The gubernatorial hopeful says he backs the Brady bill, which mandates a waiting period and background checks before handgun purchases. On education, the candidate who cut his teeth in politics promoting a successful afterschool proposition says he supports a limited voucher system, and prayer in schools.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: Yes, I think it should be up to the schools, you know, what religion they belong, and what (UNINTELLIGIBLE) what (UNINTELLIGIBLE), direction they want to go.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LOTHIAN: And on other issues important to California voters, this is what Schwarzenegger had to say. Driver's licenses for illegal immigrants...
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: I vote no on that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LOTHIAN: Legalizing marijuana...
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: It's a bad idea, yes. Although I would legalize, you know, the medical (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
HANNITY: Marijuana?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Exactly.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LOTHIAN: Oil drilling off the coast of California.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: We should stop the oil drilling.
(END AUDIO CLIP) LOTHIAN: Schwarzenegger's team says he has laid it all out. Political analyst Elizabeth Garrett says that could be good and bad, but most certainly necessary.
ELIZABETH GARRETT, POLITICAL ANALYST: That inevitably is going to turn off some voters. But it has the promise of attracting new voters.
This is a short election, but it is a campaign that's going to require positions being taken.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: Schwarzenegger still says that he will not raise taxes, but he won't pledge that, because, he says, in the case of an emergency like an earthquake or an act of terrorism, he may have to do that if elected. Unlike his other two Republican contenders, who have vowed never to raise taxes if elected, Aaron.
BROWN: Has he given us any better indication of what then he will cut?
LOTHIAN: That's the big question. He has not laid out that plan. Obviously, people like Bustamante are saying, You can go ahead and make that pledge all you want, but when it comes down to it, we still have this major deficit here in this state, and the only way that you can balance the books is by raising taxes.
So that is the big question that he still has to answer.
BROWN: Dan, thank you very much. Busy week for you. Dan Lothian in Los Angeles.
Our national roundup tonight begins with the latest on the case of the murdered Baylor University basketball player, Patrick Dennehy. His former teammate, Carlton Dotson, was indicted today on murder charges. The indictment, handed up by a grand jury in Waco, Texas, could clear the way for his extradition. Mr. Dotson is being held in a jail in Maryland. He was arrested there late last month.
In New Haven, Connecticut, thousands of Yale University workers walked off the job, just as students returned for the first day of class. The strike by secretaries, technicians, and cafeteria employees is the second this year. The union wants bigger long-term raises and wants Yale to double the benefits in the retirement program.
And she is no longer Private First Class Jessica Lynch. Lynch has been honorably discharged from the U.S. Army. The medical discharge clears the way for Ms. Lynch to seal a book deal or a movie deal about her time in Iraq. It's safe to say there are plenty of deals on the table.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the air we breathe. The first story of some new rules of what is and what is not pollution.
And the uproar over what the government said and what it actually knew about the air at ground zero.
Both stories coming up. Break first, around the world. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Chocolate made the list twice.
In a memo recently, a prominent Republican pollster and consultant warned party leaders that the environment was an issue waiting to bite them. This is not the first time such a warning has been issued, of course, and probably not the last. Fair or not, the environment has long been a tough one for the Republicans.
Fair or not, it got tougher today, when the administration came down on the side of big power plants in a long-running dispute over cleaning up the air.
Here's CNN's Kathleen Koch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new EPA rule removes requirements that power plants, refineries, and other factories install more pollution controls when they make upgrades that could pollute the air. Now, those changes can go ahead without any measures to cut emissions.
The Environmental Protection Agency insists U.S. air quality overall will continue to improve, though it admits that under the new rule, power plants could emit more of certain pollutants.
JEFF HOLMSTEAD, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY: It will either have a very minor decrease or a very minor increase. That's if you ignore all the other programs. But if you look at the other programs, the emissions will continue to come down over time.
KOCH: Clean air advocates say that's not the case.
FRANK O'DONNELL, CLEAN AIR TRUST: It would enable big smokestack industries, like refineries, like coal-fired power plants, to emit more pollution. That's going to mean more public health damage, more breathing problems for people, more people dying prematurely. It's a tremendous setback for clean air.
KOCH: But power industry groups say upgrades will make plants 2 to 3 percent more efficient, helping prevent a repeat of the mid- August blackout.
SCOTT SEGAL, ELECTRIC RELIABILITY COORDINATING COUNCIL: If you allow maintenance projects to proceed at these facilities, it is a way to help them prevent pollution, and to become more reliable players in the electric grid. That's extremely important.
KOCH: Coal-fired power plants, the most potentially polluting facilities impacted by the new rule, are located predominantly in the South and Midwest. But any particulates or acid rain they produce generally end up downwind, in states largely in the Northeast. Most of those states get very little of their energy from coal, and plan to fight the new EPA rule in court.
PETER LEHNER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE: This rule is not doing what the states wants. This administration claims to care about states' rights. But with this rule, they are ignoring the states, and doing what the states have desperately begged them not to do.
KOCH (on camera): So environmental groups and many states see the new rule as an assault on environmental protections. But the Bush administration and the industries affected see it as a smart move to increase efficiency and reduce bureaucracy.
Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And now to another firestorm, this one having to do with a report from the EPA's inspector general, the man or woman who basically patrols, polices, the EPA. It concerns the air people were breathing at ground zero in the hours, the days, the months following the 9/11 attack.
How safe was it? Or wasn't it? What were people told about its safety, and why? Here's Michael Okwu.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York Senator Hillary Clinton called the White House's actions absolutely inexcusable. This, after revelations from the EPA's internal watchdog report.
In the aftermath of the World Trade Center collapse, the report says, White House officials pressured the agency to assure the public that the air was safe to breathe, before the agency really knew for sure.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: The EPA did not have the data. They had not conducted the tests. And they lacked the samples to tell workers, parents, residents, business owners, and first responders that they need not worry.
OKWU: But that's exactly what the EPA did. Then-EPA chief Christie Todd Whitman.
CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN, FORMER ADMINISTRATOR, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY: But from a real health problem and health concerns, we don't have to worry...
OKWU: According to the report, senior officials at the EPA circulated a memo one day after the attacks, specifying that all statements to the media should be cleared by the National Security Council. At some point, the report says, the White House convinced the agency to, quote, "add reassuring statements and delete cautionary ones."
The acting EPA chief says at no time did the agency mislead the public.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: EPA did not change any cautionary statements in order to reassure the public. And we're dismayed and saddened that people would even believe any of the allegations.
OKWU: Clinton is demanding new testing, new cleaning, and that someone be accountable.
Residents used to say the air downtown carried the scent of unsettled souls. Two years later, more than a few questions still unsettled.
Michael Okwu, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Columnist Jimmy Breslin has been writing about this. We'll talk to him about that and a bit more after the break.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More now on the air at ground zero and that EPA report.
Jimmy Breslin writes for "New York Newsday." He has developed over the years a nose for the occasional ill wind. We're pleased to have him back on the program and we're glad to see him looking well.
Let me lay out an argument here for a second. You wrote a very harsh column, OK.
JIMMY BRESLIN, "NEW YORK NEWSDAY": Why?
BROWN: I don't know why. I can't answer why. You wrote it.
You're sitting in Washington on the 12th of September. The country has been grievously wounded and is -- I think edgy would be understating it and panic overstating it, but somewhere in between. And do you understand at least why someone in the White House would say to the EPA, can you just tone it down a little bit?
BRESLIN: No.
BROWN: No?
BRESLIN: I can't understand a lie to me at a time like that.
I'm in the street with the smoke and they're going to tell me a lie: It's all right? On the 16th of September, the government, the EPA issued a release in which they said it is perfectly healthy and all right for New Yorkers working in the financial district to go back.
BROWN: Right.
BRESLIN: That's competing interests. They wanted the stock market open. And it's too bad if you can't breathe right 10 years later.
BROWN: But maybe the question is, they wanted the stock market open, they wanted people to get back to life, because they, in their view -- I'm presuming -- saw this as an extraordinary moment in time, where normalcy had to prevail. Do you at least -- do you accept that it wasn't malevolent as much as it was misguided?
BRESLIN: Oh, no. A lie at a time like that is malevolent. It's unforgivable. And there can be no excuse that they saw a great opportunity in our time on Earth, that they could handle it with a lie, the same as they did in Iraq. There are no weapons of mass destruction. They told you there were, and we're going in there, we have to get them.
They lied. They lied about the air you breathe. And they lied about the war you're in and getting people killed over. When are they going to tell the truth, just for a change of pace?
BROWN: Well, let's step back again. I told you I want to talk a bit about lying in government. Do you ever -- is it ever appropriate for the government, the federal government, any government, but the federal government in this case, to lie?
BRESLIN: I don't see where it's ever appropriate. I really don't.
I cited a case. It's 1962. Look, John Kennedy is in Cleveland.
BROWN: Right.
BRESLIN: And they showed him pictures of the missile emplacements in Cuba.
BROWN: Right.
BRESLIN: And he flew back. He canceled the trip and flew back and gave the story, "I have a severe cold." I thought that was a bad precedent.
The fellow I work with, David Weiss, in a newspaper wrote that, that it doesn't make sense to lie at a time like this. Tell us.
BROWN: Well, should they have simply said nothing?
BRESLIN: Say nothing, but why don't you tell me? I live here, too.
(CROSSTALK) BROWN: I hate arguing with you on this, but because they didn't know what they were going to do. They didn't have a clue what they were going to do.
The president of the United States sees pictures of nuclear missiles in Cuba, 90 miles away. We're at the height of the Cold War. Policy has to be formed. Decisions have to be made. Messages have to be sent. And they told a little white lie.
BRESLIN: That isn't a little white lie, when you're dealing with a nuclear confrontation that could murder the world.
Tell me about it and let me sit. I'll be quiet and watch as things develop. But at least let me know what I'm looking at. Is that wrong? I'd like to be an informed public. Is that wrong?
BROWN: Is it necessary to be truthful in the -- in that situation, in these national security situations, in the instant of the event? Is it not OK to wait a little bit, until things shake out, to see how it's shaken out?
BRESLIN: Did Eisenhower ever tell another lie after he said, what U-2; I don't know anything about a U-2 plane? That cured him.
BROWN: So under no circumstances would the government...
BRESLIN: No. I don't want it.
BROWN: I assume you'd make an exception for like a D-Day sort of thing?
BRESLIN: Well, wait a minute. If you're dealing with human lives, you're going to land on a beach, come on. We can distinguish here.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Right. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying, you would make -- there are some -- it's not a kind of absolute.
BRESLIN: You wouldn't talk about it. You're not going to say, I'm going to land troops at Normandy. Don't talk.
BROWN: Do you think, in the evolution of government, that one of the things that's happened -- I'll admit that I do -- in the last 30 years or so is that the government's -- in quotes -- "propaganda machine," the communication units in each and every one of these departments, have grown very big and very sophisticated. And they can spin like crazy.
BRESLIN: Yes.
They divert. They give bad information out, which is why I think there should be no press agents in government departments. You could take 99 percent of the press agents in American government and get rid of them. All they're there to do is to make the boss look good, lie for him, cover for him, cheat. And that's one side of it. It's lousy.
The other side is, the reporters have become so lazy. They call the press agent and ask for the story. There's cases where they won't even go into a courtroom. They ask the press agent for the district attorney to go in and cover the trial and, call with me later and I'll write it. It's bred laziness on the part of the news reporters and dishonesty on the part of government.
I think you could cure a lot of the lying with getting rid of the system of having press agents. That's a lot of people out of work, but that's...
BROWN: I just literally have a few seconds left.
BRESLIN: Yes.
BROWN: Do you think your city -- and you are one of the great New Yorkers -- do you think your city is mostly healed from 9/11?
BRESLIN: I don't think it ever was that wounded.
It's the politicians that say, oh, we've got to heal the wounds and I am the one to do it for you. The people did very well. They got up on Tuesday, Wednesday morning after that attack. And you know what they did? Went to work.
BROWN: They did, indeed. Nice to see you.
BRESLIN: Good. Pleasure.
BROWN: Please come back.
BRESLIN: I will.
BROWN: Jimmy Breslin.
Before we go to break, a couple of other stories making news around the world, beginning with an Israeli raid, Israeli forces in the West Bank town of Ramallah. Israeli troops arrested members of a radical PLO faction there. Israeli military sources say 15 Palestinians detained for questioning, but not arrested. Palestinian sources said the troops opened fire. Israel says not so, saying the arrests were part of a routine operation, which says a lot.
In Beijing, U.S. and North Korean diplomats had their first face- to-face meeting in four months. This came in the first of three days of talks attended by six nations in the region trying to defuse North Korea's nuclear ambitions. The White House was quick to describe the talks as informal. And late tonight came word the U.S. is ruling out formal direct meetings with the North Korea, the government again saying it does not want to reward North Korea or be seen as giving in to diplomatic blackmail.
It's not so often you can use the phrase, this doesn't happen every day, and truly, really mean it. We mentioned this last night, didn't we? Mars is now closer to the Earth than it's been in 60,000 years. What you're getting here is a good bit closer of a look. Mars taken from the Hubble space telescope. Isn't that cool?
The images show the details on the surface of the planet as small as 17 miles apart, if you believe that's actually mars. I assume a third of you don't.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: 40 years after, one of the seminal moments in American history, the March On Washington and the memories of two extraordinary men who were there.
We take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One of the headlines of 40 years ago this week was this: "Capital is Occupied By Gentle Army."
That army descended on Washington. The battle was for civil rights. And it was Martin Luther King Jr., of course, who led the charge. "I have a dream" is what's remembered best from the March On Washington. But it wasn't the day's only speech, not nearly.
The youngest to speak that day was the least gentle among them. On that day, he was John Lewis, a firebrand in his early 20s. Today, he is Congressman Lewis. He is older, gentler, with memories that still burn bright.
Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: It was unreal. It was like a call had gone out, like the trumpet had sounded: Come to Washington. We're marching on Washington.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Forty years ago, John Lewis, then a student activist, was the youngest civil rights leader to speak at the March on Washington. Today, he is the only one still alive.
(on camera): So what was it like here? And this is actually the path that you marched on.
LEWIS: It was a sea of people, bodies, people standing together, so orderly, so quiet, most of the people sort of dressed up, like they were going to a church meeting. People don't demonstrate like this anymore.
KARL (voice-over): As Martin Luther King took the podium to give what would become one of the most important speeches in American history, Lewis was waiting for his turn to speak.
LEWIS: At that particular time, on that day, I had no idea that this speech, that the words would be so meaningful, so significant.
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time.
LEWIS: I knew when he got to that point in his speech and said, I have a dream today, a dream that is deeply rooted in the American dream, and just his very mannerism and the reaction of the crowd. You knew he was connecting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brother John Lewis.
LEWIS: He came with a different philosophy. He came with a different attitude. We were a little impatient. We had a degree of militancy.
KARL: The original text of his speech promised a scorched-earth policy, to march through the South the way Sherman did, burning Jim Crow to the ground, nonviolently, he added. The words were too militant. March organizers wanted them out.
LEWIS: We were sitting on the side making the changes. And Mr. Randolph said: John, we've come this far together. For the sake of unity, can we make these changes? And Dr. King said, John, that doesn't sound like you. Can you make those changes?
And I made the changes.
KARL: The speech was still the most radical of the day.
LEWIS: We're tired of being beat by policemen. We are tired of seeing our people locked up in jail over and over again, and then you holler "Be patient." How long can we be patient? We want our freedom and we want it now.
KARL: After the march, Lewis and other civil rights leaders met with President Kennedy. But Kennedy had opposed the march, fearing it would provoke a backlash.
LEWIS: President Kennedy thought, with a march, there would be chaos, possibility of violence, that it would turn the Congress against passage of a civil rights bill.
KARL: Forty years later, Lewis looks back at the march with a mix of longing and nostalgia.
LEWIS: I long for that sense of passion. I long for that sense of movement, that sense of not being still. And I think, 40 years later, we're too quiet. We're too patient and too complacent.
Somehow, we need to find that sense of passion. And the same spirit that descended on us 40 years ago, it needs to descend on the American people once again.
KARL: Jonathan Karl, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Andrew Young has one of those resumes that seems to go on for days, ambassador, minister, mayor, congressman. But it's his role in history made 40 years ago as a top aide to Dr. King that we'll focus on tonight.
Andrew Young joins us this evening from Atlanta. It's nice to see you, Mr. Ambassador.
Not in any to embarrass you, but because I love the story, you did not think the march was going to be a big deal, did you?
ANDREW YOUNG, FORMER KING AIDE: We really didn't.
We'd been in Birmingham and in Savannah, where we were with the dogs, the fire hoses, where every day was a crisis of sorts. And we thought that the March On Washington was just a walk in the park and really kind of longed for a rest, and looking at it on television.
BROWN: And Dr. King called you up?
YOUNG: He did. He called and said: Why aren't you here? Come on. If you don't get here, you'll be sorry.
And so my wife and I got on a plane and went up the day before. And we've never regretted it.
BROWN: No, I can't imagine.
Communications has changed so much over that time. I don't know how many people actually saw the event the day it happened. Be honest here. Did you know at the time that this was an extraordinary moment? Or did it take some days, even, to sink in?
YOUNG: Well, it was both.
One, we were anxious about who would show up. And when I got up that morning and I saw the people walking from the train station -- there was a freedom train that came up from Louisiana and Mississippi, up through Georgia, North and South Carolina. And it got in just about 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning. And I saw those people that had marched with us walking down toward the mall.
And I realized that we had something special going on. And then, before long, people came in from New York and Philadelphia and Baltimore in buses. And about noon, a planeload of Hollywood stars flew in. And then you kind of saw what Dr. King saw in putting this together. And that is that we had a Southern movement, mainly of black people. And this made it a national movement of black and white.
But it spoke and it shared the visions of an American dream that I think the entire planet bought into that day. As that speech has been played more than probably any other speech in history, all around the world, people are now singing, we shall overcome, largely because they caught that American dream from the voice of Martin Luther King.
BROWN: I was looking at the tape of it a year or so ago. And everyone -- not everyone -- but, as you look out on that crowd, it's an incredibly respectful group of people. It's largely a well-dressed group of people, which has something to do with the times, but also with the moment itself.
And it oddly reminded me of what it was like on that first Election Day in South Africa not all that long ago, the same kind of quiet dignity about it.
YOUNG: Well, there was, because these were, for the most part -- well, John Lewis is a good example.
John Lewis had probably been beaten up and jailed 10 or 15, maybe 20 times already by 1963. And so he came there with a legitimate basis for being militant. In fact, I think that was the only drama that the march had, was that young people, who really had led the fight in Birmingham and in Mississippi up to that point, were saying to the leaders that: Wait a minute. Don't drown out our voice. And John spoke for young people.
BROWN: Were you nervous about the security situation?
YOUNG: Not at all.
We'd been through Birmingham. We'd been up and down the roads of Mississippi and all across the South. I'm from Louisiana and moved north to Georgia. So I was at home.
And people in those days, when you know that your life is at stake in a demonstration, you don't want to do anything foolish. You want it to be as dignified and respectful. And that's why people dressed. This was a holy moment. And even the people in blue jeans had on their best blue jeans.
BROWN: Yes.
As you look back, 40 years is a long time. And, obviously, a lot's changed in the country. Does it seem like more has been accomplished than is left to do, or is it the other way around?
YOUNG: Well, I think that, first of all, that racism legally has been put to rest. Racism now is illegal. Up to that time, racism was supported by the state and federal governments. That no longer is the case. Racism as a spiritual phenomena continues.
But poverty and the march for jobs and freedom is still an issue. We've increased the black earning power from about $20 billion in the early '60s to almost $700 billion now. But there's still a widening gap. And there's still close to 40 million poor people in America. So the march must continue.
BROWN: Ambassador Young, it's always a privilege to see you. We appreciate your time tonight. Thank you, sir.
YOUNG: Thank you.
BROWN: Andrew Young from Atlanta tonight.
We'll take a break, morning papers when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, time to -- I don't know why I put them on. I'm just going to take them off.
Time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Here we go. There's actually a couple of really cool things here tonight.
"The New York Times," we like to start with "The New York Times." It is, after all, the paper of record. And this will be a big story. Up in the corner here, guys. "U.S. now signals it might consider U.N. force in Iraq under American leader. Idea is being explored. Bid to win support from Security Council." It does explain the complexity of how things are playing out in Iraq, a little more complicated than it seemed back in the -- around the 1st of the year, to be sure, when they were talking about it.
"The San Antonio Express News." If these papers merge anymore, doing this segment is going to get pretty complicated, by the way. "King's Dream Still Just That." They put the 40-year anniversary of the March On Washington anniversary on the front page. They also put -- can you get a shot of that, Mars on the front page, assuming that is Mars. How do we really know that that's Mars, ladies and gentlemen? You know what I'm saying? Anyway that's the -- I'm going to get in trouble for this -- "The San Antonio Express News."
If you didn't get a good shot of Mars there, "The Times Herald Record" in upstate New York, the Catskills edition, gives you an absolute. Now, that's Mars. We all know that's Mars, right? Anyway, they put that -- that is their front page. "So Near and Yet So Mars" is the headline.
How are we doing on time? I'm going a little more quickly than I planned, in that case.
"San Francisco Chronicle." Is this how -- this is Mr. Schwarzenegger's first real dip into policy today. And this is how "The Chronicle" leads it. "Actor leans to left on medical pot, gun control. Schwarzenegger gets specific, could alienate conservatives" On the other hand, he does seem to have the name recognition.
Was there something else here? Oh, yes, I like this too. "Financial Privacy Measure is Now Law in State." California passed a law limiting how financial institutions can use information they collect on you. They're not very happy about that. They'll appeal to Congress and get that overturned.
Thirty seconds, huh?
OK, then, forget the Detroit paper. We'll go to "The Chicago Sun-Times." There's a big story in Chicago. "Violent Maniac" is the headline. "Fired Worker Goes On Rampage, Killed Six."
But up at the top, quickly, who's No. 1? "Don't know about the Cubs and the Sox. They're still playing. But Aaron Brown had a deadline and we aim to please." They actually wrote that. They won't actually send that to your house.
We will. We'll see you tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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