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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE

President Bush Says Saddam Must Disarm to Avoid War; Rock Band Great White Brought Before Grand Jury; Gas Prices Near All Time Highs Due to War Threat

Aired February 25, 2003 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: It is now 6:00 Eastern, 3:00 in the West.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE for Tuesday, February 25. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

President Bush says only through full disarmament can Saddam Hussein avoid the wrath of war.

White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush says there's only one way to avert war with Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Full disarmament.

MALVEAUX: No sign of that, the White House says, despite news from the inspection team that Iraq has discovered a forbidden bomb that it says it will turn over to the U.N.

BUSH: I suspect that he will try to fool the world one more time. After all, he has had a history of doing that for 12 years. He's been successful at gaming the system.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECY.: Given the fact that another weapon has been found today, 4,294 days after they were instructed to destroy all their weapons, it does raise questions about whether Iraq ever intends to comply with disarmament or not.

MALVEAUX: President Bush leads the lobbying effort with his top advisers to get the nine votes necessary from the U.N. Security Council to pass the U.S.-backed second resolution that would set the stage for war.

Today Mr. Bush met with one of his supporters, the prime minister of Bulgaria. Britain and Spain are also continuing their full-court press on U.N. members.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer admits the president doesn't yet have the votes, but insists with or without them, the U.S. will move forward.

BUSH: It would be helpful and useful, but I don't believe we need a second resolution. Saddam Hussein hasn't disarmed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And in an interesting twist, a Republican Congressman, Senator Peter Fitzgerald, says recently the president told him that if the U.S. gets a clear shot at Saddam Hussein the president might consider rescinding the ban on assassinating foreign leaders. White house spokesman Ari Fleischer says the president does not recall any such conversation and that the executive order banning such assassinations still stands -- Lou.

DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much. Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.

Turkey's parliament is now considering whether or not to allow U.S. combat troops to use Turkish military bases. The United States wants permission to deploy as many as 60,00 troops there for at least six months and also requests 250 -- bases for 255 warplanes and 65 helicopters. The Turkish government is expected to vote on that approval tomorrow or perhaps as late as Thursday.

CNN has learned that Iraq may be planning to move an armored division to a new location. A senior U.S. official said several dozen heavy transport trucks have been on the move over the past two days. The Iraqi trucks can carry large pieces of military equipment such as tanks and armored vehicles. The official said the activity could be a sign that Iraq is preparing to reinforce its defenses of Baghdad.

The chief U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix, today said Iraq has not yet agreed to destroy its Al Samoud missiles. Blix says the destruction of those missiles not open to debate. He also said Iraq has disclosed new information about its weapons programs.

Our senior United Nations correspondent, Richard Roth, has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraq may be feeling the pressure. It's revealing new information to the weapons inspectors.

Chief inspector Hans Blix says Iraq disclosed it found handwritten documents related to the 1991 destruction of prohibited weapons. Failure to account for weapons of mass destruction is the main reason war is imminent.

Iraq also told Blix that some aerial bombs, among 500 unaccounted for, were discovered. They are capable of carrying biological or chemical agents.

HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: There are some elements that are positive and which need to be explored further. ROTH: Too little, too late say the Americans and British. The two Security Council powers plotted strategy at the U.S. mission with new resolution co-sponsor Spain.

A few blocks away, suddenly popular non-permanent members of the Council met with opponents of the resolution, such as France and Russia.

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN AMB. TO U.N.: We are against the use of force when we don't have any proof that Iraq is a threat.

ROTH: Those countries with votes, but no vetoes, plan to listen to both sides.

MUNIR AKRAM, PAKISTANI AMB. TO U.N.: We are not being asked to vote now, and therefore, I'm very fortunate that I don't have to answer that question.

ROTH: And if all else fails, Spain's ambassador has this offer for President Saddam Hussein.

INOCENCIO ARIAS, SPANISH AMB. TO U.N.: Honestly, I will give him my house in Spain if -- I mean it. I mean it. I will give him my house and part of my salary if we could solve the problem. And we don't see any bomb.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: Travel plans for Saddam Hussein still unexpected at this time. The Security Council awaits the next report, possibly this week, from Chief Inspector Blix -- Lou.

DOBBS: Richard, thank you very much. Richard Roth from the United Nations.

Now to the other country dominating security concerns tonight -- North Korea. The White House today described the latest military posturing by North Korea as saber rattling. North Korea testfired an anti-ship missile into the Sea of Japan upon the inauguration of the new South Korean president.

Kitty Pilgrim has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was quite a party. North Korea upstaged the festivities by firing a missile.

White House press spokesman Ari Fleischer quipped, "at inaugural events most nations send flowers or dignitaries. North Korea sent a short-range Cruise missile."

U.S. intelligence sources say North Korea has enough nuclear material for one or two weapons and a rocket capable of hitting the U.S. West Coast. The White House has refused to tackle the issue alone, calling for multilateral talks. Today, the White House stood firm.

FLEISCHER: The president has stood clear they will not be rewarded for their bad behavior.

PILGRIM: South Korea's president, Roh Moo-hyun, took an uncharacteristically tough line, also calling North Korea's nuclear program a -- quote -- "grave threat to peace" -- unquote. Roh has favored economic incentives to engage North Korea, condemning the United States's hardline approach. That has caused friction.

DAVID KANG, YALE UNIVERSITY: There are strains in the U.S.- South Korea alliance. And unless they're handled properly, it could actually get worse. Things that were unthinkable two months ago are being bandied about as realistic policy options, such as withdrawing all the troops from South Korea.

PILGRIM: The crisis began last October, when North Korea shocked the world by admitting a secret nuclear weapons program. There are fears the Yongbyon reactor could produce weapons grade material for several nuclear bombs.

North Korea supports its bankrupt economy by selling hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons to other countries.

Today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld raised that exact point.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I guess the question we need to ask is, Does anyone really doubt they would hesitate to sell some portion of the material for six to eight additional nuclear weapons to the highest bidder?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Well, it's clear from today's White House statement nuclear blackmail is not going to work. Today, Secretary of State Colin Powell, coming back from Asia said that North Korea had indicated it would not start up its nuclear reactor. Powell calling that a -- quote -- wise choice -- Lou.

DOBBS: And if they mean it, a very important development.

PILGRIM: Yes. Let's see if they stick to it.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.

DOBBS: Still ahead here, U.S. troops have been in Korea for more than half a century. But now many South Koreans say they are no longer welcome, and the former chief of strategy for U.S. forces in Korea, William Drennen, will be here to tell us whether time may have arrived to withdraw at least part of the American forces on the peninsula.

The Department of Justice gets tough with four former Qwest executives. We'll have a special report tonight on the slow pace of prosecutions in the war against corporate corruption in this country. And on Wall Street, a dramatic comeback today. The Dow finished the day 51 points higher after what had been a triple-digit loss earlier in the session.

The energy crisis may not be as bad as some people claim. Tim O'Brien will have that story and tell us why -- Tim.

TIM O'BRIEN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the way fuel prices have been soaring the last few weeks, you'd think the U.S. was running out of gas. Nothing could be more incorrect. Oil and gas reserves are growing, not shrinking. And we'll tell you why.

DOBBS: And "Around the World" tonight, a rare and heavy snowstorm in a region better known for warmer weather. All of that, a great deal more, still ahead here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In news around the world tonight, four U.S. soldiers were killed when their Black Hawk helicopter crashed in the Kuwaiti desert. The accident happened during a sand storm. The Black Hawk helicopter was part of an aviation regiment that is normally based in Germany, now deployed to Kuwait.

More than 5,000 rescue workers are in Western China today, looking for victims of Monday's devastating earthquake. Two hundred sixty-five people were killed. The earthquake destroyed thousands of buildings and left 50,000 people homeless.

Jerusalem at a standstill today after one of the worst snowstorms to hit that region in a decade. Only a few vehicles ventured out on the roads. Lebanon, Jordan and Syria badly affected by this freakish storm.

Gasoline prices in this country are approaching an all-time high and a possible war with Iraq could drive those prices of course even higher. But some experts now say there is an abundance of untapped oil reserves. And they say new technology proves it. Tim O'Brien has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): It wasn't many years ago if you wanted to explore for oil or gas you'd pick out what seemed to be a good spot near other productive wells, start drilling, and cross your fingers. One or two times out of ten you'd hit paydirt.

Now nine out of ten strikes are successful. New technology has not only helped to locate fields of oil and gas, but also helped to extract it. That has dramatically enhanced the world's oil reserves, now projected to be around 3 trillion barrels, more than three times what they were thought to be ten years ago.

GENEVIEVE MURPHY, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE: Some of the technology is the using computers and computers and programs that were actually developed for the space program. Three-dimensional seismic technology that allows us to point radio waves down through the earth and then have those waves come back to the surface and be picked up and read and interpreted by computers that can tell us that there appears to be an oil reservoir or a gas reservoir.

O'BRIEN: Another factor contributing to the growing oil reserves -- consumers are turning more to other sources of energy like natural gas, which is much more plentiful.

TOM AHLBRANDT, U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY: We've maybe used 23, 24 percent of the world's oil endowment, but we have only used about 11 percent of the world's natural gas endowment. So I think many studies are showing that natural gas is a fuel of the future in a few decades and its appearance is becoming very important right now.

O'BRIEN: According to some government projections, 37 trillion cubic meters of undiscovered natural gas lie beneath the ocean floor in the Gulf of Mexico alone. That would be nearly 25 percent of the world's total.

The U.S. is already tapping new sources of natural gas, which could help make the U.S. more energy self-sufficient.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That's the good news. The bad news, the U.S. still remains an oil-dependent economy consuming some 17 million barrels a day. Most of it imported. New technology and expanded exploration may help alleviate U.S. dependence on foreign energy, but better conservation is also critical -- Lou.

DOBBS: Tim, thank you. Tim O'Brien from Washington.

Coming up next here, a member of the band whose pyrotechnics started the nightclub fire in Rhode Island will appear before a grand jury. We'll have the very latest for you tonight on that investigation.

And the Supreme Court agreed with a black death row inmate, who claimed prosecutors systematically kept blacks off his jury. We'll have that story.

Also, NASA now confirms that a piece of Shuttle Columbia came from one of its wings. We'll have a live report from Miami.

And tonight I'll be joined by Daniel Pipes, the author and expert on Middle East radical Islamists. And we'll be talking about the arrests of four alleged members of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in this country. That and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Still ahead, chaos in the South tonight after a massive snowstorm there. We'll have the latest for you.

And new guidelines are being released tonight on arming airline pilots. Patty Davis will have a live report from Reagan National Airport in Washington. All of that and more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The surviving members of the rock band Great White have been subpoenaed to appear before a Rhode Island grand jury. That grand jury will question the band about the nightclub fire that broke out last week, killing 97 people.

Brian Cabell joins me now from West Warwick, Rhode Island.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Lou. Good evening, I should say. The grand jury today has been convened. It will be convened, we think, sometime tomorrow here in Rhode Island. The group Great White has been subpoenaed in California. We expect to see them showing up later on in the week.

They have been cooperative, of course, with authorities, but the two owners of this club, according to the attorney general here, reiterated again today, they have not been particularly cooperative. They have not talked to authorities at all. They have appeared on TV and that's about it. The attorney general says he needs their help, he needs the help of everybody who was in this club on Thursday night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL, RHODE ISLAND: We have not rested, nor will we, until I can make a determination public in as quick a time frame as possible. Ultimately, when that point in time comes, some people will not have been able to communicate, perhaps those who are injured. And others will refuse to cooperate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: The question that's still outstanding here is whether permission was granted on Thursday night for pyrotechnics to be used. The band has said repeatedly permission was granted. The club owners have said so far it was not.

Now, the stage manager at the club has come forward here in the last day. He said he sat down with one of the owners about three months ago and warned them about the dangers of pyrotechnics in this club.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL VANNER, STAGE MANAGER, THE STATION NIGHTCLUB: I just said that I'm having serious issues with these pyro, guys, and guaranteed safety, I can't -- do you want guaranteed safety, Mike? None. There's no gray area here, Mike. Black and white. None. That's the guarantee that I can give you.

Certainly, he was -- he was certainly like, you know, seemed to take it to heart.

QUESTION: So what he may have said to them, though, you don't know? VANNER: No. I have no idea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: Heavy equipment was out here at the site all afternoon for about three or four hours. There are reports that apparently there is still one missing person report that hasn't been entirely satisfied. So they are wondering whether there is in fact a body still in here. From everything we've seen they did not find anything.

So far 97 confirmed dead, 93 have been now identified. But again, that one missing person report, they're not certain about. They were checking the rubble today to find out whether there is anything in there. As I say, it looks as though there was not.

Also, there are about 15 people remaining in critical condition, Lou, and one of them, we're told has 85 percent of his body has been burned. Back to you.

DOBBS: Brian, thank you very much. Brian Cabell from Warwick, Rhode Island. West Warwick, Rhode Island. A terrible story.

As we reported earlier, North Korea test fired a missile just hours before the inauguration of South Korea's new president. The United States and South Korea downplayed the incident.

Joining me now is Colonel William Drennen of the U.S. Institute for Peace. Drennen was chief of the Strategy and Policy Division for U.S. Forces in Korea in the late 1980s. Good to have you with us.

COL. WILLIAM DRENNAN (RET.), U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Good to be with you, Lou. Thank you.

DOBBS: The North Koreans sent the new president, President Roh, a celebratory missile test.

Is it time for the United States to seriously think about withdrawing from the peninsula?

DRENNAN: No, I don't think that it is. Our presence there serves U.S. interests. It also clearly serves the interests of our ally, South Korea. There is a danger, though, that emotions in South Korea and a reaction to those emotions here in Washington could unleash forces that would result in the withdrawal of U.S. forces to the detriment of both the United States and South Korea in my view.

DOBBS: Well, as you know, some people are beginning to talk about doing precisely that. Not all of the forces but certainly a significant reduction in those forces. We have a situation in which there is a rising tide, as you well know, of anti-Americanism among South Koreans, and we're not talking about simply radical students in South Korea when I say that, either.

Is it time to rethink our policy in Korea?

DRENNAN: Well, I think it's time for, what I think the new context calls for, is a fundamental bottom-up review of the entire U.S.-South Korean security relationship. You're right. There is a rising tide, or apparently a rising tide of anti-American sentiment or anti-Americanism, among especially the younger Koreans, who do not seem to feel threatened by North Korea, not even a North Korea armed with nuclear weapons.

They have a decidedly negative view of the U.S. presence there. It's a very much chauvinistic, hyper-nationalism on their part. And that is the political context in which we and the new South Korean leadership must operate. Hopefully, we'll be able to get out in front of those emotions, though, justify and rationalize this relationship not only to the South Korean people but to the American people as well. Modernize it for new conditions.

DOBBS: Well, if I may say with no disrespect at all, I assure you, intended, that's something of a paternalistic attitude. President Roh has talked about engagement. He wants an equal standing with the United States in any discussions about the peninsula.

If the South Koreans themselves do not understand their own security risks, what in the world are we going to do?

DRENNAN: Well, that's where leadership is essential. And it's going to be a real test of the new South Korean President, Roh Moo Hyung's ability to lead. Because he is president today principally because of this surge in anti-Americanism that seemed to have reached its peak around the time that he was elected. He is their champion. He is their man. And I think that certain circles in South Korea have heightened expectations, maybe unrealistic expectations, that President Roh is going to equalize the relationship as if South Korea was on a par with the world's only superpower. I think that that's probably an aspiration that is not going to be realized.

DOBBS: Well, in point of fact, he's not -- his country is not even on a par with North Korea, which is, of course, the principal threat in that region. You talked about chauvinism and hyper- nationalism amongst the South Koreans. How does that square with this policy of engagement on the part of President Roh toward North Korea?

DRENNAN: It's a nationalism that is not restricted only to the Republic of Korea, South Korea. In other words, the southern half of the peninsula. It is a nationalism that seems to encompass or that does encompass the ethnic solidarity of Koreans North and South. Now, we can argue whether or not that's a realistic approach to the North Korean threat. Frankly, I think that it's unrealistic. But particularly among the younger generations that seems to be their attitude.

DOBBS: With 37,000 U.S. lives at stake on that peninsula, colonel, as we reevaluate U.S. policy on the peninsula, what strategic loss is there in withdrawing those troops or certainly the preponderance of those troops to another area, whether it be Guam, whether it would be Tokyo, the Philippines, wherever it would be?

DRENNAN: I look at it from the standpoint of what is the security architecture in the entire region, not just Northeast Asia but the entire East Asia Pacific region. And that security architecture rests on a set of five key bilateral relationships, of which the U.S.-South Korean alliance is one. We have similar alliances with Japan, the Philippines, Thailand and Australia. There is no multilateral security arrangement in East Asia the way there is in NATO and in Europe. And so for that reason if you tinker with one part of that relationship it reverberates throughout the entire region.

But more specifically, Northeast Asia is a region that is strategically important to the United States. And I -- and I think the official policy of the United States has long been that a military presence there with security alliances furthers U.S. interests from the standpoint of stability, security, economic well-being, the furtherance of democracy, and those sorts of things.

DOBBS: OK. Colonel William Drennan, thanks for being with us.

DRENNAN: Thanks for having me.

DOBBS: Coming up next here, new information on a piece of the Space Shuttle Columbia that has been found.

John Zarrella will have the very latest on this investigation.

Also tonight, Patty Davis will report on new government guidelines for pilots who will be carrying guns in the cockpit of commercial aircraft.

And we'll be joined by Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum. He'll be here to talk about an academic field of Middle Eastern studies and whether it's a safe haven for radical Islamists. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The news across America tonight, police in Huntsville, Alabama, have evacuated an area around an apartment building where they say a very unstable man is now holed up. This man is accused of shooting four people dead outside an employment agency today. Police say the man pulled a gun during a fight over a CD player.

The Supreme Court has sided with a black Texas death row inmate who claimed a jury was not representative because it did not include enough blacks on the jury. The high court ruled that the inmate should have been allowed to present his evidence during his federal appeals. The ruling means that case will be sent back to a lower court.

A winter storm dumped ice and more than a foot of snow across the southern plains and the South. Heavy snowfall forced schools to close today in Oklahoma. Treacherous conditions also forced highways to close in parts of Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Texas.

Turning now to the investigation into the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, NASA tonight confirms that a piece of the shuttle found in West Texas came from an upper portion of the shuttle's wing. NASA said the heat tile fragment likely came from the area where the left wing is attached to the fuselage.

John Zarrella joins me now with the very latest on this investigation -- John.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU-CHIEF: Lou, that is exactly right. The investigation board this afternoon in their press briefing from Houston, Texas, indicating that the piece of debris found over the weekend in Littlefield, Texas, most likely came from the left side of the wing, called the glove area, or the chine area, this area I'm pointing to here now. And this particular tile is black in color, but it's only a fragment of the tile. Now, this tile is the furthest west piece of debris found to date from the shuttle.

Now, the piece of tile that you're looking at there is another tile. Now, what your looking at is the bonding area. NASA says from their briefing today, that if you look around the edges their of that tile, which was also found in Texas you can see some evidence of heat damage. A second photo is even more telling,

It shows the opposite side of the tile, which would face the heat -- would actually be taking the heat of re-entry. You can see how jagged it is. Looks almost like a cratered canyon area. There are orange specks in that, and they say that this is evidence that the charring of extreme heat damage, which is not what you would expect to find or would ever see on a tile during re-entry.

As far as the orange specks are concerned, they have no idea at this point what those orange specks are. They're continuing that investigation as well.

Now, they did give some new information on the percentage of debris that has been recovered so far. In all, they have recovered a total of 10 percent of the shuttle Columbia debris. 8,110 pieces have been recovered. About 5,297 pieces have been identified, and they say that they may not ever be able to identify or recover all of it because much of the debris, a good percentage of it, could very well have just disintegrated on re-entry because of the speed and the heat and everything that was being dealt with at that point in time...

DOBBS: John?

ZARRELLA: Also, finally, Lou, they are also talking NASA about possibilities of perhaps finding ways to fix tiles in space -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, a lot of talk about the damage to the wing, about 80 seconds in to the launch of the shuttle. Sean O'Keefe very critical of the press for focusing on that damage, almost to the exclusion of every other aspect.

Now that that investigation has again returned to that. What is the NASA position now?

ZARRELLA: Well, right now the investigators are saying also that what they are looking at is a white object that appeared at about 82 seconds into the lift-off, that appeared to hit the vehicle, but they're still saying it could be part of the foam insulation material. They're not sure. But it is -- quote -- as they said, interesting and they're looking at that.

So yes, they've come full circle to that extent, looking again back at the possibility of something impacting that left wing and causing a piece of tile or sections of that wing to be exposed and damaged.

And again, Lou, as I mentioned, what NASA is now also finally going back to do is to start researching again the possibility that in the future, astronauts would be able to repair tiles in space if they are at the international space station, and the possibilities that a repair kit could be developed. They looked at that back in the early '80s and found that they couldn't get the right bonding materials and solvents and agents to work. But now they're going to take another look at it, in light of what's happened -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much. John Zarrella.

The coast guard has officially been transferred to the Department of Homeland Security. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge today on hand for the changing of the watch ceremony. The coast guard is one of 22 departments that will be under the jurisdiction of the new department. The bureaucratic reshuffling is expected to be fully completed by the 1st of March.

Secretary Ridge also talked about improved security at airports around the country. Today security agents began conducting random searches of cars at terminals and parking areas at Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport. Officials say traffic managed to flow smoothly with only minor delays. Random inspections were already in place at most major airports. Hartsfield was given more time because of its size and intense flight schedules.

Another security measure approved today to heighten airline security. The head of the Transportation Security Administration approved all of the recommendations for arming airline pilots.

Patty Davis joins us now from Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C. -- Patty.

PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that approval means that pilots will likely have guns within a couple of months. The first group to be trained, some 48 pilots. More to follow.

Here is how it will work: 48 hours of training, five straight days pilots will get. They will also get psychological testing and background checks. Now, if they pass all of those, they will get a gun, which they will wear in a holster. That gun to be a 40-caliber semi-automatic pistol.

And one new little tidbit that we learned today -- they will be retrained twice a year, but I'm told that could change as they tweak this system. But retraining obviously very important to keep their skills up. Pilots, though, are not completely happy with this. They say one issue that they are worried about is that once they come off the flight they will have to put that gun inside of a lock box, carry it in a nondescript bag, and carry it through the airport. They say that they worry that gun could be stolen or it could be lost, and so they say they would like to see that addressed.

But Admiral Loy today of the TSA signed off on this, saying he likes all of these recommendations.

Cargo pilots, however, Lou, will not be getting guns. That was something that Congress axed out at the last minute. But there is a new bill, Congressman John Micah of Florida, a Republican, a key aviation member of Congress, has put in a new bill that would give that right back to cargo pilots and allow them to be armed, too -- Lou.

DOBBS: Patty, you say pilots concerned. I assume we mean some pilots. The last survey I saw, most pilots do want those guns at their disposal to protect their passengers.

My question is, I guess, psychological counseling to carry a weapon, yet these men and women piloting these aircraft are responsible for the lives literally of hundreds of passengers with every flight. They really believe psychological testing is necessary?

DAVIS: Well, the TSA certainly does believe that it's necessary.

Some pilots' groups say that they are worried about that as well, simply because they're worried that if a pilot flunks that psychological test that their job could be in jeopardy as a pilot. The TSA telling me today that that is not going to happen, that they're not going to allow the airlines or anybody else to have access to that information, and they certainly will not be using that information to pull a pilot's certificate.

Now, as you said, most pilots, Lou, the overwhelming majority do want guns in the cockpit. They just have a few concerns here -- Lou.

DOBBS: All right. Patty Davis, as always, thank you for an outstanding report from Reagan National Airport tonight.

Security also being stepped up at the Pentagon. Today employees started training to use emergency masks. They're being given to staff to protect them from possible chemical or biological attacks. All 24,000 people at the Pentagon, from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on, will have a mask within a matter of months.

Four men were arrested last week in Florida for allegedly funneling money into the terrorist organization Palestinian Islamic Jihad. One of those was Sami Hamudai, professor of Middle East studies at the University of South Florida.

Daniel Pipes says many of this country's Middle East study programs have become breeding grounds for anti-Americanism and radical Islamists. Daniel Pipes is the director of the Middle East forum and joins us tonight from Philadelphia.

Good to have you with us.

DANIEL PIPES, MIDDLE EAST FORUM: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: How serious is the issue of sympathy, if you will put it that -- and I'll put it that benignly to begin with, to start with here, the sympathy for radical Islamist thinking at many of the centers for Middle Eastern studies in the country?

PIPES: I think what you'll find in general, Lou, is a sense that militant Islam, what I call militant Islam, is a benign phenomenon, something that is democratizing, is empowering, and is a good thing overall, and so you have a radical disconnect between the analysis of the specialists, the people who really make this their focus, their study, what they devote their lives to, and what the rest of us think about it.

And so, therefore, having these three individuals who are actual terrorists in the ranks of Middle East studies is not that surprising because they fit in.

Now, granted, terrorism is not normal, but the kind of views they had -- what's so astonishing is that they were normal. Even after these indictments came out last week, their bosses, their colleagues were saying, hey, these are good people, they're scholars, what do you want?

DOBBS: Well, the fact that they are being defended by their bosses is not altogether, I suppose, surprising in any case. But the idea that centers for Middle Eastern study in U.S. universities and colleges around the country would be espousing radical Islamist ideology is somewhat surprising, I think, to most people, and in many cases it's receiving considerable funding and support.

PIPES: Yes, it is receiving considerable support from the U.S. government and from state legislatures. I mean, the taxpayer is paying.

In the case at hand, it was the Florida taxpayer who was paying a lot of the bill for the University of South Florida, who was paying for these people.

More broadly, it is the federal government, it is the U.S. Congress, it is the national taxpayer who is giving tens of millions of dollars each year for Middle East studies centers. And my point is that there is an atmosphere of radicalism and anti-Americanism that is something that we, the citizenry should be paying attention to.

I'm not calling for anyone to be fired. I'm not calling for anybody's freedom of speech to be abridged, but I'm saying we've got a problem when there's this radicalized outlook.

DOBBS: A problem indeed. Certainly an important issue when we look at federal and state money being used to fund what is that which is antithetical to U.S., American interests. But we also have, fundamental to American interests, are our freedoms and our liberty, and amongst them, certainly academic freedom.

What possible way do we have in which to deal with these issues? What would you recommend as an approach?

PIPES: I'm calling for two things. You may know that I started a few months ago a project called Campus Watch. And we're focused on Middle East studies, and we're trying to do two things. One is a critique by peers, we are Middle East studies specialists ourselves, saying, look gang, you're not doing a good job and here's why and here's what we think you're doing wrong and here's what we suggest you do differently. So internal to the field.

And then secondly, we're trying to bring it to the larger public. My being on your show now. And saying, Americans, there's a problem. Here is a high-profile field of study, dealing with Iraq, militant Islam, war on terror, Arab-Israeli conflict, things which are at the very heart of our public debate today.

And the specialists, the people we rely upon to interpret it, explain it, are not there, are dissimulating, are extremists, are apologetic, are not doing the job they ought to be, and we as a citizenry should be paying attention to this fact and improving it.

DOBBS: Daniel, we're out of time. Very quickly, the Web site?

PIPES: The Web site is Campus-Watch.org.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

PIPES: Thank you.

DOBBS: Daniel Pipes.

Turning now to "Our MONEYLINE Poll Question" tonight, do anti-war demonstrations make you less likely to support military action to disarm Saddam Hussein? Please cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have at least the preliminary results later in this broadcast. The final results tomorrow after a full 24 hours of voting.

Here are the results of last evening's question, in which we asked do you believe it's appropriate for illegal aliens to receive organ transplants ahead of U.S. citizens? Ten percent of you voting yes, 73 percent said no, 17 percent said under certain conditions.

Still ahead tonight, California's health system is nearing collapse under the weight of uninsured residents. Casey Wian will have that story for us -- Casey.

CASEY WIAN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, an idea that failed during the Clinton administration is getting a second chance here in California. We'll tell you about proposals for universal health care and efforts to keep California's health care system from collapsing -- Lou. DOBBS: Casey, thank you.

The Justice Department today handed down another indictment for accounting fraud, this time at Qwest. Those stories and more next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Forty million Americans don't have health insurance, 6 million of them live in California. That state is already deep in financial crisis, and the public health system there nearing collapse. Desperate lawmakers are calling for a universal health care system, but opponents say it's not a good idea. Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN (voice-over): About 6 million working Californians have no health insurance. Their only doctor is often the emergency room. Another 6 million rely on the state's medical program, which is running a billion dollars over budget this year and faces cuts because of the state's financial crisis.

With about a third of Californians affected and health care costs skyrocketing, the state's health care system is in danger of collapse. Lawmakers are desperate for a solution. One proposal would require employers to offer health insurance to every worker or pay the state to do it for them.

JOHN BURTON, CALIF. STATE SENATE: I think as the bill moves through it will draw support from many of the large businesses that do pay health insurance. In other words, they basically are carrying the load for some of these scofflaws that do not provide health coverage for their workers.

WIAN: The California Chamber of Commerce calls the bill a job killer, especially for small businesses that will only deepen the state budget crisis.

RICHARD COSTIGAN, CALIF. CAMBER OF COMMERCE: When you start talking about increasing costs, on average, $1,500 to $1,800 a year per employ that you have, you take away the employer's ability that you have to either expand the business, create more jobs or give pay raises.

WIAN: Though controversial, it has less opposition than another lawmaker's plan to create a new state agency providing universal health care for every Californian, funded by tax increases.

JACK LEWIN, M.D., CEO, CALIF. MEDICAL ASSOC.: Physicians have had so many hassles dealing with Medicare and Medicaid, which are single payers, if you will, and other government programs, that I think the support for any kind of government takeover of health care or central finance, central authority is declining.

WIAN: Lewin says if California's effort to force employers to provide health insurance succeeds it could provide a model for universal coverage nationwide. (END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Or it could support -- spark outrage among businesses and generate more support for Republican proposals to encourage better health care coverage through individual income tax incentives -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, thanks. Casey Wian reporting live from Los Angeles.

Coming up next here, former Qwest executives have been indicted for fraud. Gregg Clarkin will have more on that story for us -- Gregg.

GREGG CLARKIN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, the government levels charges against a group of former Qwest executives for their involvement in deals that show the mad scramble their company was involved in to meet their growth targets -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Gregg.

Also tonight, we'll bring you a report on the government's strategy for cracking down on corporate corruption. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Justice Department today charged four former Qwest executives. They are charged with conspiracy, filing false reports with the SEC, making false statements to accountants, securities and mail fraud. These defendants have 48 hours to surrender to U.S. Marshals. Gregg Clarkin has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARKIN (voice-over): There's eight of them in all, mostly former mid-level Qwest executives charged with inflating the company's revenue line. The group faces various civil fraud charges from the Securities and Exchange Commission, and four of them face criminal charges from the Justice Department.

WILLIAM DONALDSON, SEC CHAIRMAN: These defendants were part of a corporate culture that placed meeting Wall Street expectations above the duty to serve shareholders and above respect for the law.

CLARKIN: The alleged fraud took place in 2000 and 2001, as Qwest was scrambling to meet growth targets. One deal had Qwest selling telecom equipment to the Arizona Schools Facilities Board to connect Arizona schools to the Internet. Qwest needed the sale to make its growth targets, so it booked the revenue before it should have.

But the SEC has very specific guidelines for when you can do that, and Qwest failed to meet any of them. It went ahead and booked the revenue, and that gave it breathing room to tell Wall Street its quarter was on track.

This was a fairly cut and dried deal and just the type prosecutors look for in corporate fraud cases. ANTHONY LEFFERT, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: The key for the prosecutor really is to try to find the group of people that may be culpable and then try to bring charges or indictments in a way that simplifies the case, that can be easily proven to a jury.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLARKIN: Now, Qwest has said it overstated more than $2 billion in revenue, much of it concerns complex fiberoptics swaps, and many believe executives involved in those deals will be on the hot seat next as investigators stress that this is an active and ongoing investigation -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, it's very active. Four mid-level Qwest executives indicted, and there are eight people involved.

Now, the other four?

CLARKIN: It's a group of eight that the SEC has charged, and then four of those are also being charged by the Justice Department.

DOBBS: And it's widening as we speak?

CLARKIN: Exactly. This is a typical pattern, you start with a smaller, cut and dried transaction, then look to move on to bigger things.

DOBBS: Outstanding. Thanks, Gregg. Gregg Clarkin.

The indictments today come a year after the investigation began. Dozens of executives in corporate America have been charged. But the most high-profile CEOs have so far escaped prosecution.

Peter Viles has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When the attorney general takes time out from the war on terrorism to announce garden variety fraud charges against mid-level executives, you have to ask, what's the message here? One obvious theory, Ashcroft is telling former top executives at Qwest that they could be next.

QUESTION: These are relatively small numbers involving relatively minor officials at Qwest. Should we expect more, and when?

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think it's fair for me to repeat that this is an ongoing investigation and for me to comment further would be inappropriate at this time.

VILES: It does take time to build cases from the middle up. At Rite Aid prosecutors worked with a cooperating executive for a year and a half before indicting former Chairman Martin Grass. But sometimes prosecutors simply cannot make a case that goes to the top. Hence, no criminal charges yet against Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling at Enron. No criminal charges yet against Bernie Ebbers at Worldcom. STEPHEN RYAN, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It may be that everybody in society wants to draw and quarter a particular CEO, but that's not how the law works. And so I think it's going to be an accident which of the CEOs is actually indicted. It will be bad luck for them or a bad set of e-mails that exist that leave one CEO potentially in an orange jumpsuit and other CEOs walking away from the situation.

VILES: And in the case of Qwest these indictments do not obviously point to the top of the company because in a big company revenue recognition issues don't typically make it to the CEO's office.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Now, for the record, the government has gone to the top of four major companies now with criminal charges -- Tyco, Rite Aid, ImClone, and Adelphia. At all four of those companies a former chairman or former CEO now facing charges -- Lou.

DOBBS: So the rule here is -- don't put it in e-mail.

VILES: Don't put it in e-mail, which Bernie Ebbers apparently did not use e-mail very much, which is now greatly to his advantage.

DOBBS: And didn't send notes?

VILES: Didn't send notes.

DOBBS: Didn't write letters. And didn't allow, apparently, taping of his phone calls. All right. Or, you know, should those have been relevant.

Pete, thanks. Peter Viles.

A remarkable comeback to tell you about on Wall Street today. The Dow up 50 points at the end. Stocks initially tumbled following the lowest level of consumer confidence in nearly ten years.

Christine Romans is here to talk about that remarkable rebound.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE CORRESPONDENT: And finally, some volume, Lou. And it came when the market was coming back on the upswing. Some people were touting it a technical rebound, some people were saying it was just bargain hunting. There was also a pullback in oil prices. That was because Spencer Abraham the U.S. energy secretary, indicated that perhaps the U.S. would use strategic petroleum.

DOBBS: Opened the door?

ROMANS: Yes, well, you know, that was enough to really get this thing moving. So everything started moving higher on pretty good volume. Home Depot had a good day, up about 3 percent on the session, a rare profit pullback in its earnings report, but it did all right on the day. El Paso and Williams both moving higher. That was helped because of optimism about their liquidity situations. And the builders did very well. Hovnanian, Toll Brothers. Really astonishing strong earnings reports. Raising targets for Hovnanian the fourth or fifth time in just a year.

DOBBS: Building is a good thing in this country. PE ratio for the S&P 500, a lot of people starting to take a look at that.

ROMANS: Absolutely. Eighteen on an operating earnings basis, but 29 on an as reported basis, strip out tech, though, it's about 12, Lou.

DOBBS: Well, let's not strip out tech because tech is -- what is it, about 15 percent of the S&P 500?

ROMANS: Yes, it's dwindling every day.

DOBBS: So historically we're still high. Twenty-nine on an as reported basis.

ROMANS: Historically still a little high.

DOBBS: All right. Christine, thanks.

ROMANS: OK.

DOBBS: Good work on that rally.

"CROSSFIRE" begins in just a few moments.

Let's go to James Carville and Tucker Carlson to find out what they have in store for all of us -- Tucker.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST "CROSSFIRE: Well, Lou, not many people believe Osama bin Laden was set up, but Gore Vidal does. He's going to join us tonight to explain it and his contention that the U.S. is run by a junta of oil men. And then there's a new movement in the United States to undermine an outlaw regime. We're speaking of course about France. There's a boycott of all French products. We'll be talking to the leader of that boycott, a great American. It's going to be a great show.

JAMES CARVILLE CO-HOST "CROSSFIRE: And then we'll be talking about something that has apparently fallen out of favor. 30,000-year experiment with a thing called sex. And we have Allison Pearson who wrote the book "I Don't How She Does It." And we'll be talking about the decline in sex that I predict will end in about 2008.

DOBBS: Well, it's good to see both you and Tucker pursuing your relative areas of interest so passionately. We look forward to it, gentlemen.

Still ahead, the preliminary results of our MONEYLINE poll question, and some of your thoughts on illegal aliens, who receive organ transplants in this country. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) The preliminary results of our poll. "Do anti-war demonstrations make you less likely to support military action to disarm Saddam Hussein." 44 percent of you replied yes, 56 percent said no. Voting may continue through to tomorrow evenings program when we hope you'll join us.

Your thoughts on about our special reports on the ethics of transplants and citizenship regarding Jesica Santillan.

Ashley from Sunnyvale, California wrote in to say, "One feels sympathy for individuals in bad circumstances, but when we are not taking care of the medical needs of our own citizens we cannot be rewarding people deliberately breaking the law and jumping the line to get organs ahead of those born here or who have gone through the proper steps to become legal residents."

And from Winston-Salem, North Carolina, Taylor wrote to say, "Let me get this straight, this family comes to the United States illegally, receives two transplants operations for free, for which many Americans have been waiting a decade, and then sues the very people who tried to help her."

Share your thoughts with us at moneyline@cnn.com anytime. We enjoy hearing from you.

That's MONEYLINE for this evening. Thanks for being with us. For all us here good night from New York.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com



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