The Web    CNN.com     
Powered by
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
SERVICES
 
 
 
SEARCH
Web CNN.com
powered by Yahoo!
TRANSCRIPTS
Return to Transcripts main page

CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE

U.S., Britain, Spain Submit New U.N. Resolution on Iraq

Aired February 24, 2003 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: It's now 6:00 Eastern, 3:00 in the West.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE for Monday, February 24. here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

A simple question tonight from the president of the United States about the United Nations: is it going to be a body that means what it says? The president, along with the British, going ahead with another resolution before the U.N. Security Council. But the president is clearly losing patience.

The president again warned today it's up to the United Nations to determine whether or not it's going to be relevant as the world confronts threats in the 21st Century.

We begin the coverage tonight with senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president says the new resolution presents the Security Council with a defining challenge.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: Determine whether or not it is going to be relevant as a world confronts the threats to the 21st Century. Is it going to be a body that means what it says? We certainly hope it does.

KING: But Mr. Bush also told the nation's governors he will disarm Saddam Hussein with out without Security Council backing, even if it that means going against public opinion at home and around the world.

BUSH: The country expects leaders to lead. And that's exactly what we all are going to do, for the good of mankind, for the good of the American people.

KING: The chief weapons inspectors briefed the Security Council on Friday, March 7 and the administration then wants action on the new resolution. Monday, March 10 is a tentative target for the decisive vote. By then, the White House predicts Iraq will defy the inspectors and refuse to destroy its Al-Samoud 2 missiles. But even if Iraq complies, the White House says it is far from enough.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECY.: A criminal holds a gun to your head and takes one bullet out of the chamber, you have to worry about the rest of the bullets in the chamber because they can kill you, too.

KING: Germany and France are among those who still oppose the White House, but will face a tough choice in two weeks.

JON ALTERMAN, C.S.I.S.: If it's going to happen anyway, you might as well be on board and try to get some of the benefits from it, instead of trying to show that you're going to object and then show yourself to be powerless and irrelevant. That doesn't win you anything.

KING: Twelve hours before the vote on resolution 1441, the United States had just seven votes, but prevailed in the end, 15-0.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: The stakes, of course, are much higher this time. The administration concedes this new resolution is the gateway to war. Still, some cautious optimism here at the White House that, in the end, after two weeks of tough diplomacy, the White House will again prevail in the Security Council. But, Lou, tonight, they concede, there's no guarantee. And if the vote were today, they don't have a majority -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, John, just how important is it that they have a majority as to the president's decisions to pursue the possibility of conflict with Iraq?

KING: Well, senior officials tell us with adamancy, that the president will go forward any way if he believes it's necessary. Certainly, he would like to have the blessing of the United Nations Security Council. That would be of most help to Tony Blair, Prime Minister Aznar of Spain, Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy.

The European leaders are under intense pressure back home and the president does not want people, his critics, to be able to make the case not only is Saddam Hussein in defiance of the United Nations but George W. Bush is as well. They say here they will give this United Nations one last chance. And they say, in the end, if the president loses, he will be able to make the case that he asked the United Nations Security Council to step up to the challenge. And that in his view, failed and he will go on.

DOBBS: John, Saddam Hussein, in a CBS interview challenged the president to a live debate. What is the White House reaction?

KING: Well, Wolf, they're laughing a bit behind the scenes. They view this as a public relations gimmick by the Iraqi leader. Senior official Dan Bartlett, the communications director, telling me there is no debating what is required of Saddam Hussein. They say they don't take it seriously here at all and they will not respond in any away to lead them to believe that it does -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, they're de-escalating a bit, the Iraqis, previously offering a duel between the president and Saddam Hussein.

John King, thank you very much.

Well, as John just reported, the United States, Britain and the Spanish have created a strategy at the United Nations to move ahead with the disarmament. But that faces strong opposition in the Security Council. France, Germany and Russia presenting a proposal that would strengthen weapons inspections and certainly give them and Iraq more time.

French President Jacques Chirac and the German leader, Gerhard Schroeder tonight met in Berlin. They said the new resolution is unjustified.

Senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth has more on the story -- Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the battle lines are drawn. France, Russia and Germany issuing a memorandum to the Security Council saying, in effect, that give the inspectors more time, several weeks to file reports until two or three months from now a final update. Totally not consistent with what the U.S., U.K. and Spanish resolution says, which says that Iraq is not cooperating and that Iraq, in effect, has lost its last chance, its last opportunity.

Going along with France, Russia and China is China, the Chinese ambassador saying that inspectors should be allowed to proceed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANG YINGFAN, CHINESE AMB. TO U.N.: I think the Council has agreed we need to take strong measures for more active inspection. That's the majority's view.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: ...are playing for the time. The U.S. may insist the vote happens after Hans Blix ,seen here this morning, presents his final oral report, maybe on March 7. Blix appearing before a disarmament panel that he uses as a sounding board. He's given Iraq until March 1 to start dismantling the Al Samoud 2 missiles, testfired beyond the 93-mile allowed range.

Blix is expected to send his deputy, Dmitiri Perricos, to Iraq to discuss the timing of the destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I think it's good that they are considering, and Mr. Perricos is going down to Baghdad very soon. And we would expect them to accept what we have said and to destroy the missiles as we have stated. They have all done so in the past, always, when UNSCOM and when we have requested so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: So, it will be at least two weeks, Lou, before there's any vote here. While the tussling goes on among the big powers, nobody yet threatening a veto and laying down the gauntlet, but there's still time for that -- Lou.

DOBBS: Richard, thank you very much. Richard Roth, from the United Nations.

Turkey appears to be on the verge of allowing U.S. troops to use military bases in Turkey. The country's deputy prime minister said that almost all the cabinet members have now signed off on the plan. That plan is expected to include a roughly $15 billion loan and aid package to Turkey.

For more on this, I'm joined by Faruk Logoglu, Turkey's ambassador to the United States. Ambassador, good to have you with us.

FARUK LOGOGLU, TURKISH AMB. TO U.S.: Thank you.

DOBBS: First, is -- give us your best information to this hour as to where we are as to whether or not Turkey will finally and fully approve U.S. use of its bases and facilities.

LOGOGLU: As you just reported, the Council of Ministers has approved the step to take the matter to the Turkish parliament. That is another pillar to this. The talks between Turkey and the U.S. are still going on, probably even at this very hour to finalize an agreement on economic, political and military matters.

DOBBS: Mr. Ambassador, this is a sizable amount of money that the United States would be providing Turkey. Why is this amount of money necessary for either the defense of Turkey or any of its other interests going forward?

LOGOGLU: This is partly about money, but not just about money. It's about money because we have suffered a great deal as a result of the Gulf War, from something in the order of $100 billion in the past 10 years. And we stand to lose a similar amount over the next four years if we don't get sufficient support from the United States. So, we have concerns on the economy.

But we also have the state of public opinion in Turkey, which is strongly opposed to such a war. We are also following the developments in the Security Council, which is also going to be an element to be taken into account by the Turkish parliament.

DOBBS: Yes.

Mr. Ambassador, what is the relationship -- how would you characterize the relationship now between Turkey and NATO blocked principally in providing support for defense of Turkey by the French, the Germans and the belgiums?

What is the reaction to this hour?

LOGOGLU: Well, as you know, it took sometime for NATO to reach consensus on that point. The point of providing protection to Turkey. It took a little longer time, and a lot of debate for our taste. But at then they came through, and we're happy with that result because Nato cohesion was preserved even though it probably did receive some scars along the way.

DOBBS: Those scars at least will be soothed in some part by the arrival of men and material to support the -- your government and your country in defense should there be an outbreak of hostilities with Iraq. But you have a very large standing army in Turkey. Well trained and also, one that is -- that has considerable resources.

Why does Turkey need support from either the NATO or the United States from Iraq?

LOGOGLU: This is an international effort. This is not a problem between Iraq and Turkey. If Iraq has take action against Turkey, it's not because it's at war with Turkey. It's going to be because of what the international community has decided to do in Iraq. And when a member of NATO is under threat, then all other members of that alliance are obliged to come to the aid, to assistance of that member. And that's what happened in this instance.

DOBBS: Yet, Turkey turned solely and unilaterally to the United States for billions of dollars in aid.

Isn't that also an international issue?

LOGOGLU: No. What the U.S. is expecting from Turkey is a very concrete, very important. They need this modern option. They need Turkey, also, in the post-conflict situation. So, it's a matter of give and take between two friends, two partners, and I think they are about to come to an agreement on all the fronts I identified.

DOBBS: Ambassador Logoglu, you expect the parliament to give final and complete approval to these negotiations?

LOGOGLU: I would not dare to predict what parliament is going to do. But when the government does ultimately take the issue to the parliament, it's going to be with an expectation of a yes vote. But I think there is going to be a lot of explanation, a lot of convincing to do between now and the actual vote in the parliament. I think it is very important to remember that there is a lot of strong public sentiment against a war in Turkey.

DOBBS: Ambassador Logoglu, we thank you very much for being here.

LOGOGLU: Thank you.

DOBBS: Well, as the preparations for war increase, the Pentagon is making plans for the future of Iraq after Saddam Hussein is removed from power. Those plans include the installation of a civilian administrator.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, SENIOR CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Pentagon is in an active state of planning, but private relief organizations say the U.S. military can't do it by itself. And they're complaining they're being left out of the loop.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEN BACON, PRES., REFUGEES INTL.: Weeks have gone by with no coordination whatsoever which has made it difficult for the relief organizations to be organized and to figure out what they should be doing to maximum humanitarian advantage.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): In a best case scenario, the U.S. would win quickly and the military able to provide food and other assistance to the Iraqi people. But with as much as 60 percent of the Iraqi population relying on food programs, dropping rations from the sky as was done in Afghanistan is unlikely to be enough.

In the 1991 Gulf War, about 3500 Iraqi civilians were killed, according to an estimate from one human rights group. But many more died since from malnutrition and lack of medicine. That could be a big problem this time if, for instance Iraq water supply contaminated.

BACON: That's why having a well organized humanitarian response ready at the earliest possible minute to go in is important, because you can stop the post-conflict deaths or suffering that frequently dwarfed what happens in the conflict.

MCINTYRE: In worst case scenario the U.S. could find itself having to deal with as many as 600,000 displaced Iraqis that might flee for safety in neighboring Iran or Turkey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists it does have advanced planning underway. In fact, over the weekend, more than 100 officials from the U.S. Government met to talk about everything from plans to install a civilian U.S. administrator to help rule and rebuild Iraq. To garnering international support for repairing Iraq's infrastructure and rebuilding the civilian institutions -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.

Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.

Coming up next, the United States and Britain propose a new U.N. resolution on Iraq setting the stage for a confrontation with the French, the Germans and the Russians.

Former Assistant Defense Secretary Richard Perle will be my guest.

Secretary of State Colin Powell is in South Korea tonight. Therefore, the inauguration of the new president coming at a time when U.S. presence in South Korea is not altogether welcome.

Kitty Pilgrim will have that story for us -- Kitty.

KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, South Korean's have been demonstrating against U.S. troops. We'll tell you what the new president of South Korea thinks about the troops there -- Lou.

DOBBS: Also update you tonight on the devastating earthquake that struck China's Northwestern region.

On Wall Street, anxiety about war sent stock prices lower. All three major indexes down nearly 2 percent on the day. Christine Romans will have the market next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In news around the world tonight, U.S. forces in Kuwait on high alert. That after three Kuwaitis arrested charged with planning attacks against U.S. troops. Kuwait describes the men as Muslim fundamentalists. They were found with weapons and ammunition.

China sending rescue teams and equipment to the Western part of the country. That after more than 260 people killed in an earthquake today. 4 thousand others are reported injured. The earthquake is the worst to hit the region in 50 years.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon today struck a deal for a new coalition government. Sharon's Likud party reach an agreement with the Centrist party. Sharon won the Israeli general election at the end of last month.

As we reported, the United States and the allies today introduce a strongly worded resolution on Iraq at the United Nations today. Former Assistant Defense Secretary Richard Perle says only Saddam Hussein has the power now to prevent war.

Richard Perle, is a resident fellow with the American Enterprise Institute and joins us from our studio's in Washington, D.C.

Good to have you here.

RICHARD PERLE, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST.: Good evening, Lou.

DOBBS: As John King, senior White House correspondent reported there is -- and Richard Roth, there is little likelihood that the president can win this vote before the U.N. Security Council.

Why do you think the administration is pushing ahead with it?

PERLE: I think the president now as he has before is showing that he is doing everything he possibly can to give the international community an opportunity to demonstrate cohesion, will and resolve. There have been, after all, 17 resolutions calling on Saddam to disarm. And the most recent of those promised serious consequences. And everyone was known what is meant by that, if he failed to do so.

So the real issue is the president...

DOBBS: Richard Perle,excuse me for one minute, I need to interrupt you. We're going to go quickly to the United Nations where the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Negroponte, is speaking.

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: ... will be co- sponsored by the United States and by Spain.

Last November, after more than 11 years of Iraqi non-compliance with 16 relevant resolutions, the Security Council passed Resolution 1441. Since then, after nearly four months and five reports to this council by the heads of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, it is clear that Iraq has failed to avail itself of the final opportunity Resolution 1441 offered.

Resolution 1441 was quite explicit; the requirements placed on Iraq were clear. And unfortunately what we have seen is more of the same: no truth, no real cooperation and, most importantly, no real disarmament.

It is now apparent that instead of seizing this final opportunity, Iraq has tried to continue business as usual. But the council, the Security Council, must not allow itself to return to business as usual on Iraq. By presenting this resolution we hope to clarify the thinking on Iraq.

There has been a lot of talk recently about benchmarks. Resolution 1441 is the benchmark, and Iraq failed the two basic tests set forth in that resolution: We have not received a currently accurate, full and complete declaration of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction programs; and we have not seen immediate and unconditional and active cooperation with UNMOVIC and the IAEA.

Resolution 1441 is not about inspections. It is about disarmament.

DOBBS: U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Negroponte, laying out before reporters, at the United Nations again, the clear statement and view of the U.S. government that Iraq is in absolute violation, material breech, if you will, of Resolution 1441, setting the basis for the introduction today to the U.N. Security Council of a resolution that will be voted upon, we believe, within the next two weeks, calling for disarmament by force if necessary of Iraq.

Before we turned to John Negroponte at the United Nations, we were talking with former assistant Defense Secretary Richard Perle. Richard, let me return to the point that you were outlining, and that is over the course of 12 years, 17 resolutions, there is very little doubt in terms of the clear language of those resolutions that Iraq has been in clear violations. That's not even in debate at the United Nations, or at the Security Council.

The issue is now how much time to give Iraq for compliance? Do you think they should be given more time? PERLE: I don't. I see no reason to think that more time will produce a better result. Saddam has had plenty of time, if he wished to disarm to show us that's what he intended to do.

DOBBS: Why in your judgment, the joining of France, Germany and Russia in that effort to provide for time. Certainly there are despairate (ph) national interests at work, that is understandable.

But after 12 years and the clear breeches and material breeches of those resolutions, is this reflecting, in your judgment, a difference, a view about the region? Is it reflecting a difference, a viewpoint about the role of the United Nations, or, indeed, the future of the world balance of power?

PERLE: I think it's very simple. The United Nations Security Council is not a judicial body in which the members are pledged to make some finding of truth or fairness or equity. The individual members express what they believe to be the interests of their country.

The French interest is different from ours. Saddam Hussein has a good relationship with President Chirac. The Russian interest is not identical to ours, either. Nor is the German, given that Chancellor Schroeder has said he would not support U.N. action under any circumstances.

So each of these countries is expressing its own interests, and they are not going to stand up and say that's what they are doing, so instead they say give the inspectors more time. They don't believe that more time is going to help. It's a delaying tactic.

DOBBS: A delaying tactic. And how could that possibly be in the interest, if it's simply delay, how is it that in their interest if the ultimate outcome will be conflict to disarm Saddam Hussein?

PERLE: Well if you have aligned yourself with Saddam Hussein as I'm sorry to say I think the French have, then if delay pushes us past the point where we are able to take effective military action, you, actually, may have salvaged his regime.

I don't think that's going to happen because I think this president is quite determined to put together, as he has, a coalition of countries who, unlike France and Germany, are prepared to show that U.N. resolutions cannot be scorned, ignored and despised with inaction as the only result.

DOBBS: You mean beyond the limit of, what, 13 years or 12 years? They've obviously -- I mean, again as a matter of objective standard of truth, they can be ignored, they have been ignored.

To this end, Richard, what do we see as the outcome? Is there -- if one follows your reasoning, I almost hear you criticizing this administration for the way it has pursued, if you will, a multilateral consensus at the United Nations.

PERLE: I think it was fine to try to get a multilateral consensus, and indeed most countries among our friends and allies are with us, it's a small number that are not.

Where I think, if we can turn the clock back, we might do things differently is in the way we regard inspections. Because the impression has been created that these inspections are meaningful and have the potential to unearth Saddam's weapons. They're not. The inspectors are going to places we know he has already removed the weapons from.

Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. repeated recordings of the conversations in which they talk openly about getting things out of there before the inspectors arrive. So we should ever tougher in saying there's no basis for the inspection, because Saddam has not cooperated.

DOBBS: Richard Perle, as always, thank you for being here.

PERLE: It's a pleasure.

DOBBS: Secretary of State Colin Powell today arrived in Seoul to attend the inauguration of President Roh Moo-hyun. Powell's trip comes at a time when relations with South Korea are strained, to put it kindly, calling in question the very future of the 37,000 U.S. thousand troops who are stationed there. Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM (voice-over): For 50 years, U.S. troops have been at the ready to defend South Korea against the million-man army of North Korea. But South Korean resentment over the U.S. military presence has flared in recent months. Thousands of South Koreans called for the U.S. military to withdraw from the peninsula.

The presence of 37,000 U.S. troops to defend South Korea costs the U.S. taxpayers some $3 billion a year. The new South Korean president, Roh Moo-hyun, will be inaugurated Tuesday. He ran a campaign that tapped into anti-American sentiment in South Korea and advocated closer ties with North Korea.

ROBERT DUJARRIC, HUDSON INSTITUTE: He comes from a fairly anti- U.S. forces background. During the campaign, he did catered to some of populist anti-American sentiment. I think he went a little too far. South Korea without an U.S. military presence today would still be a poor, underdeveloped country.

PILGRIM: Roh has stopped short of calling for U.S. troop withdrawal. But he said he would not, quote, "Kowtow (ph) to Washington."

Some Korean experts worry that with increasing tensions with North Korea, U.S. troops could be at risk.

ERIC HEGINBOTHAM, NORTH KOREAN TASK FORCE, CFR: One of the North Korean tactics has been to threaten U.S. forces in Korea. That they would be attacking U.S. forces but not intending harm to the South Koreans. It's imperative that we get a real statement of support from the South Koreans on this, that any attack on U.S. forces would certainly be considered an attack on South Korea.

PILGRIM: There have been efforts to cut U.S. troops in South Korea in the past. During the Nixon administration, troop strength was cut by some 20,000. And President Carter wanted a total withdrawal. South Korea objected to that, and troops were only reduced by some 3,000 at the time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: South Korea has taken a much softer tone regarding North Korea's nuclear program. President Bush has simply demanded North Korea abandon its weapons program.

President Roh is pushing ahead with expanding ties to North Korea and also offering economic incentives -- Lou.

DOBBS: And perfectly willing to have U.S. troops leave the peninsula?

PILGRIM: No. They have not gone that far, but they're walking a pretty fine line on playing a double game, saying one thing to the South Korean population and representing it another way to the international community.

DOBBS: That seems to be occurring in more than one region of the world these days.

PILGRIM: Shocking.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim.

Coming up next, friends and relatives gathered to remember the victims of the deadly nightclub fire in Rhode Island. Tonight, we'll have the very latest for you on that investigation.

And the first AIDS vaccine trials end in failure, but with some glimmer of the possibility of success. We'll have details.

And later, an autopsy will determine the exact cause of Jesica Santillan's death. But the debate about how she managed to obtain a second lung and heart transplant has only begun. In a special report tonight, we'll take a look at the ethics and the politics of transplants in this country. That and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Memorials are being held at this hour to remember the 97 victims of the terrible nightclub fire in West Warwick, Rhode Island. Friends and family members have gathered today in Warwick. Meanwhile, the state's attorney general said the owners of the nightclub have not yet responded to police questions about that fire. Our Bob Franken reports from West Warwick, Rhode Island.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is so tiny, the nation's smallest state, that residents consider Rhode Island one community, where everyone seems to know everyone else.

This remarkable closeness means that the people of Rhode Island take this tragedy very personally, including the man who has visibly taken charge.

GOV. DON CARCIERI, RHODE ISLAND: All of the people coming together has just been overwhelming. The kind of support from every part of the community has just been uplifting. It's been an amazing thing.

FRANKEN: The emotions boiled together -- intense grief, helplessness, anger, a desire for accountability. Officials refused to confirm or deny reports that they got a warrant to search the home of a co-owner of the club, but neighbors say they saw police at the house. Investigators are trying to resolve the dispute over blame.

PATRICK LYNCH, RHODE ISLAND ATTORNEY GENERAL: I have a responsibility to look at facts, look at evidence.

JEFFREY DERDERIAN, NIGHTCLUB'S CO-OWNER: No permission was ever requested by the band or any of its agents to use pyrotechnics at the Station and no permission was ever given.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their position is that we never asked them, we never told them. They knew nothing about this. And they just -- they're wrong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And there have been evidence that's come in supporting both sides. That's something that's still going to have to be resolved. Lou, the memorials here for the last couple of days have been informal, like the spontaneous one that has risen at this site right here in back of me, but of course, the formal ones are going on now. You're seeing the video as we bring it to you live from the second one at the civic center here in West Warwick as the state tries to get together -- as I pointed out, it's a very, very tight knit state, and so everybody is in an unique way suffering this together very personally -- Lou.

DOBBS: Bob, thank you very much. Bob Franken reporting from Warwick, Rhode Island.

Coming up next here, tonight's top stories. Also, the 17-year- old girl who died after a two heart-lung transplant was smuggled into this country illegally, it turns out. The politics of transplants is the subject of a special MONEYLINE report tonight. Bill Tucker will have the story -- Bill.

BILL TUCKER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Jesica Santillan case raises questions of ethics, money and medical malpractice. We'll have the report, Lou.

DOBBS: Thanks, Bill.

Also tonight, massive flooding has left parts of the United States under water. We'll have that story. There is a great deal more still ahead here. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: These are the top stories we're following. The United States, Britain and Spain today made a final attempt to convince the United Nations to force Saddam Hussein to disarm. They introduced a new resolution that says Saddam Hussein has missed the final opportunity to peacefully give up his banned weapons.

The United States and Turkey today moved closer to an agreement that would allow thousands of U.S. troops to use Turkish bases. The Turkish cabinet agreed to send the issue to parliament. A decision could come as soon as tomorrow. The Turkish ambassador to this country on this broadcast just moments ago, however, declined to suggest how that vote would go.

And another terrorist threat to U.S. troops in Kuwait. The Kuwaiti government has arrested three radical Islamists for allegedly planning attacks against U.S. forces. Those three were found with weapons and ammunition.

And the first full-scale human trial of an AIDS vaccine failed overall to protect people from infection. However, the vaccine did significantly lower the infection rate among African-Americans and Asians. The VaxGen phase III trial studied the vaccine in 5,400 people over a period of three years.

Newspapers this morning reported the results quite differently. "USA Today" praised the results. "Vaccine for AIDS appears to work." "The New York Times" more skeptical, "Large trial finds AIDS vaccine fails to stop infection."

Clearly, no division over the results on Wall Street today. Shares of VaxGen tumbled nearly 50 percent to an all-time low on more than 20 times its average daily volume.

In other medical news tonight, doctors performed an autopsy today on Jesica Santillan. She died Saturday after a second heart and lung transplant at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina. In the first transplant, Jesica mistakenly received organs from a donor with a wrong blood type. Her death has ignited controversy as more than 80,000 people in this country desperately await organ transplants.

Bill Tucker reports on the politics and ethics of transplants.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER (voice-over): Heart-lung transplant is the riskiest transplant operation a patient can undergo. The survival rate after three years, 43 percent compared to heart transplants of 78 percent. There are no measurable odds for second transplants on heart-lungs. Jesica Santillan got two transplants.

HOWARD NATRAN, EXEC. DIR., GIFT OF LIFE DONOR PROG.: If you look at it from an ethical standpoint, in some respects , didn't get the first transplant because the first transplant was, you know, a mistake.

TUCKER: There's a nationally banking network which coordinates donor and patient lists on a local, regional, national levels. According to the people that maintain the network, it's a fairly run network matching patients to organs using a series of criteria with include blood type, state of health and location to donor organs. Over the years, the fairness of that network has been called into question by several high-profile celebrities making it appear that money does make a difference.

Mickey Mantle who waited two days for a liver. Singer David Crosby waited 18 days for a liver and a heart. Larry Hagman waiting six weeks for a liver. All of those waiting times considerably less than the typical waiting period, but all three also critically sick. In Jesica Santillan's case, seems less a matter of money and more of doctor's failing to make sure the first set of donated organs were the correct blood type. The organs didn't match sending doctors into a scramble.

DR. ARTHUR CAPLAN, MEDICAL ETHICIST, UNIV, OF PENN.: I understand why the doctors want to fix the mistake, but you know, we don't see the pictures of the other kids that might have been able to live if they got a shot at the second set of organs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Now, there are more than 80,000 people waiting for a transplant. And the United Network of Organ Sharing does admit the odds improve if you have a generous insurance plan and if you can afford to be on the waiting list in several locations -- Lou.

DOBBS: This is a remarkable tragic story and remarkable focusing on obviously some very serious issues.

Bill Tucker, thank you very much.

We want to turn now to CNN medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

And ask you first, Dr. Gupta, this is a remarkable story. With this -- this looks very bad in a lot of ways, moving to the issue of Duke, moving in with heart and lung transplants so quickly.

What is your first reaction?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, obviously, you know, it's a tragic situation. Blame probably does have to be assigned in this situation. Surgeon with the transplant, it is his or her ultimate responsibility to make sure that the organs are compatible. That's the first thing most people think about, whether or not these organs are going to be compatible with the blood type. In this case, they weren't.

Interesting point, Lou, that comes up, I think, is about the second transplant. You saw the numbers there just a minute ago, 43 percent survival rate at three years. That's before a first transplant. Those numbers do drop dramatically off a after first transplant has failed, and second transplant is necessary. So, the real question -- go ahead.

No Finish. I'm sorry.

GUPTA: From a macro level, you know, could the organs been successful in someone else more likely versus Jesica Santillan who was a tragic, very public situation, but in a very dire situation.

DOBBS: There are a host of issues here, Dr. Gupta, as you well know. One, a young lady, greatly in need but smuggled illegally into this country. Tens of thousands of people in this country awaiting desperately organs for transplants.

How in the world is the medical profession rationalize these ethics?

GUPTA: Well, you know, Lou, I think it's a very difficult question. And the fact that she was smuggled illegally makes it even more difficult. The mother did have health insurance supposedly and that may have contributed to a certain extent getting her on the list, getting her on the waiting list for the organ transplantation.

This girl was someone not cared for adequately from the very start. She had a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) heart defect. Had that been corrected at the time when it should of been, she was younger in the first few years of life, she may not have progressed to the situation where she actually needing a heart-double-lung-transplant. But certainly, the crux of the issue is the fact, that she had at least a fighting chance before the first transplant. Unfortunately, due to human error, that did not give her that chance.

DOBBS: In your judgment, and I know I'm putting a considerable burden on you here, in your judgment, does the medical profession need to look very seriously at these transplants?

Because Bill Tucker, in reporting on it, found only statistics in terms of survival that go out three years. Now, may be somewhat impressive to talk about a 73 percent survival rate, but we do not receive from the medical profession itself extensive survival rates that would go up five and ten years. Extraordinarily scant information and data. We have very little to tell us about the judgments that are made about who moves up this list.

Do you think the medical profession should address these issues very quickly and rigorously?

GUPTA: Yes, absolutely. You're right. This sort of survival statistics for some of these transplants are abysmal. Heart and double-lung certainly. Lou, the flip side of it is, of course, these people probably die. They're critically ill. Probably die without any sort of transplant. If you think about the costs, as well, the cost of doing something like that, you know, millions and millions of dollars you could inoculate entire towns for what it costs to do a single transplant. In an era of limited resources, those questions are heightened. Those are excellent points, Lou.

DOBBS: Doctor Sanjay Gupta, we thank you for being with us.

GUPTA: Thank you.

DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of the MONEYLINE poll question. "Do you believe it is appropriate for illegal aliens to receive organ transplants ahead of U.S. Citizens?"

Cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have preliminary results later in the broadcast.

Still ahead here, prices climbing at the pump.

Peter Viles will have more on that story -- Peter.

PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, gas and oil prices are, indeed, rising but they don't have the grip on the American economy they once did. Ahead we'll explain why -- Lou.

DOBBS: V., Thank you.

Parts of this country are well under water tonight. We'll update you on the floods all across America.

And the latest Enron-type accounting scandal has hit a company but one across the Atlantic.

That story and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: News tonight across American melting snow and rain over the weekend flood parts of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic states. Severe flooding in Charleston, West Virginia caused rivers there to spill over their gates. Fire fighters rescued several people trapped by floods.

Gasoline prices near an all-time record high. A survey reports the average price of gasoline rose 7 cents to $1.70 a gallon, that's just 7 cents below the record set almost two years ago.

Oil prices today shot higher nearing two-year highs, that of course on anxiety about the new U.N. resolution setting a stage for war. Light sweet crude oil rose 90 cents, 2.5 percent, to $36.48 a barrel. But when adjusted for inflation, gas isn't as expensive as it was a generation ago.

And America's economy, believe it or not, not as heavily linked to energy consumption as it once was.

Peter Viles has the story.

VILES (voice-over): Another spike in gas prices, $2 a gallon no longer a rumor, it's a reality in many places. But some perspective, adjusted for inflation, the prices are far below the peaks hit in the early '80s when inflation adjusted prices hit $2.90 a gallon. In fact, gas, oil and energy in general less crucial to the American economy now than they have been in the past. 1981, energy costs amounted to 14 percent of economic activity, oil accounted for 8 percent. 2001, energy just 7 percent of the economy, oil, 3.4 percent.

Behind the energy decline, a generation ago this country was burned by high energy prices and it responded. Now, everything from the cars they drive to the homes they live in, Americans are more energy efficient than they were a generation ago.

MICHAEL ROTHMAN, MERRILL LYNCH: Any body who builds a home now can't get it done without insulation being put in the walls or double pane windows, et cetera. So there's been some structural changes in terms of how we consume energy.

VILES: In the American economy, energy intensive manufacturing has declined and been replaced by service jobs that don't require as much fuel. Even the production of energy itself is cleaner and more efficient.

As a result, the American economy is less vulnerable to spikes in oil prices than it was a generation ago.

RON EARLEY, ENERGY INFORMATION ASSOC.: From the point of view of how we use energy today, I think we're smarter. I think we're less vulnerable to the economic impacts of a shock.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: This does not mean that a spike in oil prices cannot hurt the American economy. It certainly can. But the damage of such a spike not likely to be as severe as it would have been some years ago.

DOBBS: Inflationed adjusted, gasoline prices lower than they were 22 years ago?

VILES: Sure are.

DOBBS: And all of the hysteria that one can occasionally read about in various publications in this country about oil prices going to $37 a barrel, completely overblown?

VILES: Overblown. Not only gas is cheaper, but most cars get better mileage, so it costs a lot less to move around.

DOBBS: Even SUVs?

VILES: SUVs are hurting the trend. But the trend still is lower. Per capita consumption of gasoline still is not back to the peaks of the '70s and '80s.

DOBBS: Very insightful. Thank you very much, Pete.

Well, still ahead here, an Enron-sized accounting scandal has hit the world's third largest retailer. That story and more next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A major accounting scandal, this time across the Atlantic. Dutch grocery giant Ahold became the first European company to be rocked by an Enron-like scandal. Its stock plunged more than 60 percent after both its CEO and CFO resigned. The company disclosed accounting irregularities totaling a half billion dollars. Ahold is a leading global retailer owning 35 supermarket chains in 27 countries including the U.S.

And stocks down across the board. Today's decline wiped out, in fact, all of last week's declines. Christine Romans has the market for us.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Hans Crude Gold (ph) higher, stocks lower. All of last week's gains gone. now It's the familiar war-weary trade that we've been seeing.

There was some strength, though, in a couple of oil stocks and oil deal here -- Devon Energy buying Ocean Energy for $3.5 billion and about $1.8 billion in debt. So some strength right there. Those stocks both closing higher here.

Retailers, though, Lou, hurt by that snowstorm. J.C. Penney and Federated both lowering their sales targets for February. Wal-Mart was also cautious, though a little bit less so. Still, a lot of those stocks fell.

Lowe's, though, this one up nicely. Its earnings up 46 percent. It raised targets. We'll be watching Home Depot tomorrow. It's expected to have a rare profit pullback in its earnings report tomorrow.

DOBBS: It's quite a contrast between those two.

And, in January, a rare mutual funds outflow?

ROMANS: Yes.

Last year, in January, we had a $21 billion inflow into equity funds. This year, take a look. A $1 billion outflow. Investors pulling money out of equity funds. This is very rare, the first time since 1990 for the month of January. Bond funds saw an inflow of about $13 billion. That's a record for January. Lipper says investors were saying yes to income, no thanks to growth.

Now, if there's a little bit of a bright spot to all of this, Lou, I would say that it is, in the first few weeks of February, we saw a little bit of a reversal of this trend and $1 billion -- it ain't so much when you think about the $3 trillion in these funds. DOBBS: No...

ROMANS: I'm just trying to look for the bright spot.

DOBBS: No, it certainly ain't. Thank you very much, Christine.

Still ahead, the results of our MONEYLINE poll, your thoughts on the U.S. aid package for turkey and more.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Turning now to the preliminary results, at least, of tonight's MONEYLINE question: "Do you believe it's appropriate for illegal aliens to receive organ transplants ahead of U.S. citizens?" Ten percent of you have voted yes, 75 percent said no, 15 percent committed to under certain conditions.

Taking a look now at your thoughts, many of you wrote in about the U.S. aid package to Turkey.

Jane from Scottsdale asking, "Why would we offer $6 billion to Turkey when our seniors are forced to choose between food and the drugs they need to stay alive? Is the death of Saddam more important than the death of our senior citizens?"

And Dave from Las Vegas asked -- or rather, wrote, "My heart aches for the lives lost in Chicago and again Rhode Island. My heart also ached for those lives lost in the shuttle accident. Do the recent nightclub accidents mean we should scrap all nightclubs? If not, why all the concern about scuttling the shuttle program?"

Send us your thoughts at moneyline@cnn.com. Please include your name and address.

That's MONEYLINE for this Monday evening. For all of us here, good night from New York.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




International Edition
CNN TV CNN International Headline News Transcripts Advertise With Us About Us
SEARCH
   The Web    CNN.com     
Powered by
© 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us.
external link
All external sites will open in a new browser.
CNN.com does not endorse external sites.
 Premium content icon Denotes premium content.
Add RSS headlines.