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Is There an End in Sight to Michael Jackson's Outrageous Behavior?

Aired February 21, 2003 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, what's Michael Jackson really like? Even after that second TV special that aired last night, it seems the more we see of him, the more questions we have.
Tonight, answers and insights from those who know him.

In Los Angeles, Brian Oxman, the Jackson family's attorney for the past 13 years. In London, the renowned psychic Uri Geller, a close friend of Michael. In fact, he introduced Michael to Martin Bashir, the journalist who made that controversial Jackson documentary. In New York, Nancy Grace of Court TV. In Los Angeles, Jane Velez-Mitchell, who's been covering Michael Jackson for the TV show "Celebrity Justice." All next on LARRY KING LIVE.

And, by the way, Jann Carl of "Entertainment Tonight," who has also been on top of this story, will be joining the show shortly.

We're going to start with Uri Geller in London, who introduced Michael to Martin Bashir.

Are you sorry you did?

URI GELLER, AUTHOR: Yes, Larry, I am. I introduced Martin Bashir to Michael because Martin Bashir promised me that he's going to do a constructive and a positive documentary. He said that he's going to bring justice into the life of this remarkable man. He promised many things. He said that he is going to take Michael to the United Nations to meet Kofi Annan and create a children's day. He said that he's going to fly into South Africa to meet sick children. And, you know, Larry, I've been around for a long time, but I fell for it. I trust people.

He also promised me this in writing. I only introduced Michael to Martin after I had this promise in writing. And I'm sorry I did that.

KING: All right, one of the most controversial areas of that special "Living With Michael Jackson," the documentary, was Jackson's admission that he has shared his bedroom with children, although Jackson denies any sexual misconduct. Here, the British journalist Martin Bashir (ph) confronts Jackson.



MARTIN BASHIR, REPORTER: When you actually invite children into your bed, you never know what's going to happen.

MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: But when you say bed, you're thinking it's sexual. They make that sexual. It's not sexual. We're going to sleep. I tuck them in. We put, I put little like music on and do a little storytelling. I read a book. It varies. We put the fireplace on. Give them hot milk. You know, we have little cookies. It's very charming. Very sweet.


KING: Nancy Grace, I know you're a criminal prosecutor. You're anchor now for "Trial Heat" on Court TV. There's nothing criminal in this, is there?

NANCY GRACE, COURT TV: Well, absolutely not. Having a child falling asleep in your bed.

But, Larry, I watched the program. I watched Michael Jackson. And I've got to tell you, I was totally sucked in until I pulled out this affidavit, Larry, the affidavit that had been written by a then 13-year-old boy that is in such detail, Larry. And that's one thing that attorneys, defense and prosecution, look for, the detail in a victim's statement is incredible about a year long seduction, Larry, including three hour telephone conversations with a little boy.

KING: So why, if you...

GRACE: Trips to Italy.

KING: Why haven't there been criminal charges forthcoming?

GRACE: Well, it's my understanding that there was a very, very long and intense police investigation that the file is, as they say, inactive because, I believe, the victim did not want to go to court. That's what I think. That's what I can deduce. And we all know that there was a civil settlement of millions and millions of dollars. And interestingly enough, on February the 10th, there was a response by the Jackson camp to this affidavit being made public online. It didn't negate the truth of the affidavit, it just simply attacked the breach of the confidentiality agreement.

KING: I got you.

Brian, what is the, what's the story?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Larry, there is a confidentiality clause which prohibits any of the people who are associated with Michael and the entire matter...

KING: You weren't the lawyer in that settlement?

OXMAN: No, Johnnie Cochran was the lawyer. KING: I met, I had dinner with both the lawyer for one side and the other side and the judge who handled it. And there is a confidentiality and there were no criminal charges filed.

OXMAN: So it puts a constraint on everyone.

KING: However, if there is that affidavit, doesn't Nancy have a point?

OXMAN: I sit here and boy, do I want to answer that affidavit and do I want to tell you the things that I know, which really amount to a great deal of skullduggery involved in the entire transaction. But this confidentiality clause and this contract constrains me and I'm not able to do it. But that doesn't mean I don't want to do it and you can read in my face exactly what I think of that whole thing.

KING: Well, are you, can you say unequivocally there was no sexual seduction by Michael Jackson of a young child?

OXMAN: If you're asking me to comment on...

KING: Can you say that?

OXMAN: .... the case itself, on the settlement itself...

KING: No, no. It's a general question.

OXMAN: .... I can't. I can tell you Michael does not hurt children. He has never hurt any child. And I think that's as far as I can go. And I would like to go farther, but I just cannot.

KING: Now, Jane, you've been covering this. What do you make of this? This is...


KING: Somebody's right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Some, I think Michael Jackson wants to have it both ways. I think he wants to be a kid and behave like a kid and he also wants to be taken seriously as an adult and be treated as a responsible parent. And in society you can't have it both ways. If you want to be a kid, be a kid, don't have kids. If you want to be an adult, be a responsible adult and don't have sleepovers.

You know, yesterday, as much as I admire some of the people who were involved in making yesterday's rebuttal documentary, I have to say I was very disappointed. It was like a big infomercial for Michael Jackson. And there were so many questions screaming to be asked. Debbie Roh (ph), she's the fall guy. I mean she's falling on her sword...

KING: The first wife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And she's saying, you know, it was my idea to cover the children's faces. I'm the one who pushed for him to have children. But yet nobody asked her what's your financial situation? Are you supported by Michael Jackson? You know, what's the financial arrangement there? That question needed to be asked. Whatever the answer is, somebody needed to ask that question.

KING: A criminal charge has never been brought against him, Brian?

OXMAN: Criminal charges have never been brought. The D.A. refused to prosecute the case for very sound and good reasons.

KING: Uri Geller, do you believe that Michael Jackson may have done untoward things toward young children?

GELLER: I don't believe that at all. Otherwise, I would not associate myself with him. I'm a father. I have two children. I think Michael Jackson is a 44-year-old man who has a mind of an innocent child in a way. He's innocent. He's naive. I think he's gullible. I think he's a wonderful soul. He will never do anything to hurt children.

I've seen him around with kids here in England. You see, I invited Michael, Larry, eight months ago to become the honorary director of my football club, Exodus City. And he graciously agreed to do that on the condition that we will bring very sick children to the club, which we have. I've seen him hug kids with full blown AIDS. It was fantastic to see.

I know Michael close up. There is such a tender soul, spirit in him. And I understand the problem. I understand the bigger picture where people are surprised and amazed and bewildered that he allows children to sleep in his bed and he says that he sleeps in his sleeping bag. I was never there. I was never on the ranch. But you see there is a way that Michael creates unconditional love. And...

KING: I know, now hold it. Holt it.

GELLER: .... many of those children were very sick.

KING: I don't want to get into -- Jane, you wanted to say something to Uri.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, don't you think that Michael is perhaps in denial? I mean he said he has an unhappy childhood, he had an unhappy childhood. He obviously considers himself a victim. And the experts will say, psychologists will say if you consider yourself a victim, you are often likely to victimize because you consider yourself justified. You think well, I have reason to act out.

KING: Uri?

GRACE: Well, I have a response --


GELLER: Yes, I...

KING: All right, now, first Uri then Nancy.


KING: Go ahead, Uri.

GELLER: Yes, OK. I understand you. I understand, once again, I understand you and I understand the problem. But unfortunately, once again, when you bring up the word bed, there are immediate, immediately sexual connotations to it. You know, at this time and age we are living in such times where we suspect everything. You know, even here in England, the British educational authorities gave out an order to teachers not to put sun blockers and suntan lotion on children or for nurses not to look for lice in the heads of kids, because, again, you bring up that, the sexual side of it.

KING: We want to get...

GELLER: I do not believe...

KING: Hold on one second, Uri.

GELLER: .... Michael has ever done anything wrong to a child.

KING: Nancy, you want to say something quickly and I've got to go to a break.

GRACE: Yes, I'll say it quickly, Larry. I know you've got to go to break. But I respect Mr. Geller standing by Michael Jackson. He says he knows him up close. Well, these kids know him real up close, too, in bed with him. And, Larry, what this child alleges is shocking and incredible and so much of this affidavit...

KING: But you're going to...

GRACE: .... about molestation...

KING: It's something that was settled, though, Nancy, in a civil court.

GRACE: Settled...

KING: It's moot.

GRACE: .... in civil -- so what? Does that mean it's not true? And I've got a question for the lawyer. As of February 10, the wires say to me the police file is open but inactive. Is that incorrect? Are the police wrong in making that statement? That is a direct quote.

KING: Brian, quickly.

OXMAN: The statute of limitations has expired on the entire transaction.

GRACE: Open but inactive.

OXMAN: But the file is open and it is inactive.

GRACE: Thank you.

OXMAN: And I've got to tell you, I want to tell you why that affidavit is inaccurate and I want to tell you about a whole series of things...

GRACE: But you can't.

OXMAN: I am constrained and I just, I am burning to do it and I just can't.

KING: All right, let me get a break.

We'll be back with more.

We'll include your phone calls.

Don't go away.

As we go to break, here's Michael responding to the initial charge back in 1994.


JACKSON: There have been many disgusting statements made recently concerning allegations of improper conduct on my part. These statements about me are totally false. As I have maintained from the very beginning, I am hoping for a speedy end to this horrifying, horrifying experience to which I have been subjected.



KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

The panel is complete. Jann Carl of "Entertainment Tonight," weekend anchor and correspondent, has joined us, late but here.

JANN CARL, ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT: Yes, I've been working. Forgive me.

KING: That's allowed. You're allowed to work.

CARL: Oh, yes.

KING: All right, we've been discussing Jackson and young boys and you've been covering it. What do you make of it?

CARL: Yes, I mean first of all, I think even though I've been covering entertainment news for a long time, news for almost 20 years, I'm still surprised at the intense interest that America has. I mean last night on Fox, they had the highest Thursday night rating that they've had in four years. And I'm complete -- I mean we're all fascinated by Michael. I'm fascinated by America's interest and how it doesn't seem to wane and how they can't seem to get enough.

KING: Because he's such a talented person and...

CARL: You know, if...

KING: .... it boggles you.

CARL: You know, I've been trying to analyze why there is such an intense interest in Michael. First of all, I think when you look at the fact that we've grown up with him. So many Americans have grown up with him over the years. And then I decided to take a look at how many albums has he actually sold. First of all, "Thriller" remains the number one selling album of all time. And you look it, that was, I believe, 51 million. He sold 100 million albums as a single artist.

As a Jackson 5 member, another 100 million albums. So you're looking at 200 million albums. Maybe that's part of the reason that there's this interest in him that won't go away.

KING: Brian wanted to add something about noise.

OXMAN: Well, first, in all of the history of interviews on American television and on the world television, there has never been a higher rated program. It just went through the stratosphere...

KING: You mean the first one.

OXMAN: For the first one. And then the constant repetition and continuous coverage has been astounding. Saddam Hussein cannot do an interview like that. President Bush cannot do an interview like that. There is no celebrity in the world today that can command this kind of audience.

KING: Why?

OXMAN: Michael is so unique. I look at it as it's kind of a magic and...

KING: All right, hold it a minute.

OXMAN: And it was just, it was just a magic thing.

KING: Nancy, take off the prosecutor's hat and just be a viewer.


KING: Why are we fascinated with him?

GRACE: Well, I find it very interesting that your question was what about these allegations regarding molestation of little boys and everybody's response is man, he really did a great rating the other night. Isn't that great?

OXMAN: Oh, but I will respond.

KING: He wants you... GRACE: You know, I'm just saying...

KING: Oh, wait a minute...

CARL: Brian wants to respond.

KING: Brian wants to respond.

GRACE: I watched the show. I watched the show. You asked me as a viewer. And I sat there and was mesmerized by Michael Jackson. For a moment, I almost believed him, until what he said fit hand in glove with what this little boy claims happened to him. I'm talking about oral sex, manual masturbating, taking baths together. The kid was 13. And you may all be impressed by his great ratings and his money and his gold records, but I'm impressed by the fact that this kid had the guts to come forward and fill out this affidavit.

KING: Uri, hold right on.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, everybody's talking about Martin Bashir and whether he's a good journalist or not. The fact is the controversy was created by what Michael Jackson said. It came out of his mouth.

KING: Is alleged to have done, as the boy alleges.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Well, no. Of course, I'm talking about in the documentary that he says he slept over with Gavin. That he has sleepovers with boys. Martin Bashir could have been the most absolutely gracious interviewer and had the most flattering documentary in the world and people would have picked up on that one statement the next day...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: .... Gloria Allred and all his other critics. So this is really not about Martin Bashir. It's about what Jackson said.

KING: Uri, all right, Uri wants to say something and then we'll have Brian.


GELLER: Yes, you know, bringing up this very deep interest about Michael Jackson worldwide, let's not forget that the man is a genius. He has written lyrics and songs that are so powerful, you know, they are engraved on your brain.

KING: But that...

GELLER: They're etched in your memory.

KING: Uri, but that doesn't... GELLER: And they evoke emotions.

KING: Yes.

GELLER: And well, no, I'm just answering why the interest, why the fascination. You know, Larry, I must tell you this, that since that first broadcast of Martin Bashir interviewing Michael, I have received tens of thousands of e-mails. Every second an e-mail comes into my computer, all of them are saying, you know what? I never really liked Michael, but now I understand him. I am a fan. Send him my love. And it's fascinating how he moves people.

KING: All right, hold it one second.

GELLER: And...

KING: No, no, hold it one second, Uri. You're getting repetitive and I just want to stay on mark.

Well, you wanted to say something, add something on the boys, because I want to get to another area?

OXMAN: Yes. The boys. There have been literally thousands of youngsters who have visited with Michael interviewed by innumerable authorities across the world. It was the most expensive investigation in the history of Los Angeles County. And the result was we have one fellow, one young man who makes a complaint, who I can't comment on.

KING: That's the only complaining person ever?

OXMAN: That is the only complaint that there has ever been. Children have said Michael's hugged me, Michael has kissed me, but this is all that we have.

KING: The only thing was this boy?

OXMAN: Correct. And here's something about this business about the bed. Michael said in the interview that Gavin slept on the bed with his brother and that Michael slept on the floor. And what we're so upset with the Bashir documentary is that the anteroom to Michael's bedroom where the door is open has 24 hour attendance and security, who are watching the entire process. When the child snaps a finger, somebody is there.

KING: Jane isn't buying that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean when you've faced child molestation allegations and you've settled for approximately $20 million out of court, wouldn't it make sense to not say that you sleep over with children? Wouldn't it make sense not to put yourself in the position? Some people feel that he's actually orchestrated this entire thing on a very deep subconscious level to get attention.

KING: Another area of the "Living With Michael Jackson" documentary that has gotten lots of attention is the question about cosmetic surgery. Here, journalist Martin Bashir pushes him on that. Watch.


JACKSON: I've had no plastic surgery on my face, just my nose. It helped me breathe better so I can hit higher notes.

BASHIR: But are you, Michael, are you honestly saying that you've only ever had one operation?


BASHIR: You've had two?

JACKSON: As I can remember, yes, just two.


KING: Jann Carl, you believe that?

CARL: It's hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe. We've watched, when we watch the change over the years, year after year after year, it's hard. I think that's the one thing that I wish I had seen Martin push him, as a journalist, push him further on, and I wish he had been able to actually at that point question him, saying, you know what? Either, you know, I'm not sure I believe that, I don't think your fans are going to believe that. We've seen such a change over the years. You know, to have pictures available...

KING: Why do you think he would like about something like that?

CARL: I can't get into his head.

KING: What do you think?

CARL: I can't get into his head.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think when you're in a state of self- denial, you can lie to yourself about a lot of things.

KING: He says he believes it's twice, if it was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He may have rationalized it to the point where he's defined operations one way versus...


GRACE: Are you guys blind? Are you blind? I mean, Larry, please. And I am a Jackson fan, all right? I love his music. I think he is brilliant. But what I'm saying is should I believe him or my lying eyes? OK, I can see. And if he expects us to swallow that, how can we swallow his story? I'm still hung up on the molestation charges, all right? I don't care. Nobody in the show business --

KING: Well, hold it one second, Nancy...

GRACE: ... can argue about somebody else having a face lift.

KING: The program's about a lot of other things. So you count it odd, Nancy, that there's only one boy that's ever come forward to fill out an affidavit?

GRACE: You know what, Larry? I know where you're headed, but having represented thousands, literally, of child molestation victims ranging from age two to age 18, I know how hard it is to be honest and come forward. And when you are looking at going up against a mega star like Michael Jackson, no. I'm not surprised at all. And I don't care about his nose.

OXMAN: It's the absolute opposite. Michael is the target and the entire family is terrorized by this entire thing.

GRACE: Right. Not the little boy.

OXMAN: Understand that, but he...

GRACE: You said the case was closed, but it's open. It is open but inactive.

OXMAN: The file remains open. But Michael is the target here and the entire family is terrorized by this. So when we look at...

GRACE: And he's changed his story.

KING: Well, let me get a break. We'll be right back in a second.

GRACE: I don't know why that's funny to you.

OXMAN: It's not funny, it's serious.

KING: As we go, let me get a break.

As we go to break, here's Jermaine Jackson appearing on this show defending Michael.



KING: As brothers, concerning facial changes, when you ask him about it, obviously I would ask my brother if he changed a lot, why are you doing this...


KING: What would he say to you?

JERMAINE JACKSON: Well, first of all, he has this skin disease called vitilico (ph). And that's a discoloration of the pigmentation of the skin.

KING: Didn't know that.

JERMAINE JACKSON: Well you know now.

KING: He has a skin disease. OK.

JERMAINE JACKSON: Yes. And, but still, it's like we talk about the surgeries and everything, and Hollywood is full of it. We know that. But that's not, if I wasn't happy with something or if you wasn't happy with something, you would make a change.

KING: And do you know why he does it a lot, though?

JERMAINE JACKSON: He doesn't do it a lot. But what it is is it's like what is -- that's not what we judge him on. We judge him on the person he is and his contributions to the world.



KING: We're back.

Brian Oxman, you will agree that since the 1994 allegation and the subsequent settlement and Nancy's referral to the affidavit, Michael has never fully recovered from that, has he?

OXMAN: The storm that Michael has experienced, along with the entire family, started when he was 12 years old, and it's ebbed and flowed over the entire course...

KING: Yes, but that occurrence...

OXMAN: This, without question, casts a shadow and putting doubt in the minds of the American people. But I think his subsequent activities, his subsequent conduct is really something which shows the kind of character the man is. What we got in the Martin Bashir interview, even though there was enormous editorializing which was way out of place and really yellow journalism, we still saw a lot of Michael and the things that he does and his care for people. And it really tells us a lot about his character.

KING: Jane, is that Brian?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don't think it was yellow journalism. You talk about Woodward and Bernstein and what they had to do with Deep Throat and some of the mind games they had to play during the Watergate scandal to bring down a president. I mean the role of a journalist is to find out the truth.

KING: Yes, but they edited it a lot, too, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure. But I mean if you look at the outtakes of any interview, especially one, an interview that was conducted over the period of eight months, you're going to be able -- maybe Martin Bashir was taken out of context. It's always possible. KING: Is it possible, Nancy, that Michael once had a problem and doesn't have it anymore and the case was settled and let him live a life?

GRACE: Yes, that is possible, although in my experience, and it's well over a decade of handling child molestation cases, that is the one type of criminal that I have found cannot be rehabilitated. I'm not saying it's not possible. It could happen. But when you look at the evidence -- and don't get me wrong. I respect his brilliance and the good works that he has done. But I cannot be more impressed by his money and his gold records than concern about this boy and others, allegedly.

Yes, he could get well, but look at this actions. He's still having sleepovers with little boys, having them in his bed. You know, I don't know where you guys come from...

OXMAN: Well, but they're cancer survivors...

GRACE: ... but where I come from, that is way out of the norm.

KING: What you want...

OXMAN: It's a cancer survivor. This is a little boy...

GRACE: It's like offering a vodka to an alcoholic.

OXMAN: All right, understand, this is a little boy whop was on the edge of death. Hew was told that he had three more days to live.

GRACE: I understand that.

OXMAN: There was a call to Michael and said can you help this child? And Michael responded. No one else does it. No one else was interested.

GRACE: And I credit him for that.

OXMAN: He responded. He brought the boy to the ranch and this child has survived. And you know something? The parents adore him. The brother adores him. Everyone associated...

GRACE: I see what you're doing, sir.

OXMAN: ... who knows Michael Jackson...

GRACE: I see what you're doing.

OXMAN: ... adores him. It's all the strangers who are detractors.

GRACE: You're taking the focus off the '93 child molestation allegations, which were very, very detailed and resulted in millions of dollars...

KING: But we're beating a horse here. GRACE: ... of settlement and you're moving us up in time to a good work. I understand what you're doing.

CARL: You know, Larry...

GRACE: But that doesn't negate what happened.

CARL: Larry, I want to ask Brian a quick question. OK, let's not talk about the morality. Let's not talk about the legality. Do you feel it's inappropriate?

OXMAN: I have represented to courts of law on a continuous basis that every child who goes to Neverland Ranch is safe, secure. It is the safest place on the planet.

CARL: That's not what I asked. Do you feel that it's inappropriate for an adult to sleep in a bed with children?

KING: Yes, OK. Yes. Nothing happens sexually. Is it inappropriate to sleep (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CARL: Is it just plain old inappropriate?

OXMAN: I'm going to tell you that it is certainly not something that we recommend and it is something that Michael does not do. He does not sleep in the same bed as these children. They are sleepovers with cancer survivors, under privileged children.

KING: OK, let me get a break.

OXMAN: But he's separate from them.

KING: When we come back, I'll reintroduce the whole panel, get another comment from Uri Geller, go to your phone calls. And we'll do all that, right after these words. Don't go away.



JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Look at his heart. Look at his music. Look at what he's done for people. Look at the influence. And we've been influenced. But, no, my brother is not a crazy character. He's not the Wacko Jacko that people say.


KING: Let's reintroduce our panel.

Brian Oxman is the attorney for the Jackson family, of long standing: Uri Geller, good friend of Michael Jackson, the famed psychic, a man who does amazing things, done it for many years -- he introduced Michael to Martin Bashir -- Jann Carl of "Entertainment Tonight," weekend anchor and correspondent; Nancy Grace, the anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV and a former prosecutor; and Jane Velez- Mitchell, correspondent on "Celebrity Justice," who has been covering the Michael Jackson story.

We understand Jermaine Jackson is on the phone.

Are you there, Jermaine?

JERMAINE JACKSON: Yes, I'm here. Thank you.

KING: Do you have a comment on the proceedings so far?

JERMAINE JACKSON: Well, first of all, I'd like to hi to Brian.

And you're doing a great job, Brian.

OXMAN: Hi there, Jermaine.


Listen, the other two young ladies have never met my brother. They don't know my brother. And I just want to talk a bit about this case that this boy brought forth, the young kid. In "GQ," according to what I've seen, this was nothing but an attack to set my brother up, because the kid's father wanted Michael to further his screening career. And it says here: "And if I go through this -- go through with this, I win big time. There is no way I lose. I checked that out inside and I will get everything I want and there will be -- I will then destroy him forever."

This is what he is saying. And then he says, "Everybody will lose." What he's saying, his whole thing was to bring Michael down


KING: Jermaine, are you saying that the kid's affidavit is a lie?

JERMAINE JACKSON: Well, if you look at -- because I've had some of the things faxed to me. And it has been contradictory.

He would start off by saying, several times, he was never touched. But I am very furious, because these two young ladies on the show, they've never met my brother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that's not true. I actually did meet him once.

JERMAINE JACKSON: Let me finish. Let me finish.

KING: Hold on, Jermaine.

JERMAINE JACKSON: The young lady that's on the screen -- and I'm very upset with "Entertainment Tonight, because the bottom line is, you saw the interview. You don't know the Jacksons, OK?

And I'll say it again. This is Black History Month. And this is nothing but an attack against black people and what we have stood for. And I am very, very furious. Somebody should bring out the "GQ" article.


KING: OK, I'm going to bring it up right now. OK, Jermaine, thank you, Jermaine.


KING: All right, thanks for calling in.

CARL: Brian is squirming.

GELLER: Larry?


KING: Yes, Uri, you want to say something? I'm going to go all around. Uri, you want to comment?

GELLER: Yes, I agree with Jermaine 100 percent.

That affidavit was splashed on front page headlines here in England a week ago. And I read it. And it is just simply hard for me to believe that that comes from a 12-year-old boy. It is quite shocking.

KING: You think he was coaxed?

GELLER: That is my opinion, absolutely.

KING: The boy was coaxed? All right.

Now, Nancy, if that's true, does that wash you out?

GELLER: Absolutely.

GRACE: Excuse me?

KING: Nancy, if that's true, if this was a father looking to gain money, having a boy say this, that's terrible, isn't it?


And you know what, Larry? I think that if a father had tried to extort Michael Jackson for millions of dollars, you want to tell me he would not have been arrested or charges filed? At the beginning -- and the panel laughed when I brought this up, specifically the Jackson family lawyer. But the Jackson camp changed their stories so many times. First, they said this was an extortion attempt; they would never pay. Then, suddenly, as police began to develop evidence, they did pay millions of dollars.

GELLER: Nancy, Nancy, Nancy.

KING: Yes, Uri, go ahead.

GELLER: Yes, I must add something.

Nancy claims that she has gone through many cases of this nature. And it is true that, if Michael was a child abuser, where are the other children he has abused? Why no one comes forward? It is just so hard to believe that it was done to one child. Michael is now 44.

GRACE: That is so wrong. That is so wrong.

GELLER: So what are you saying, that this was one and that's it?

KING: Let's get other people involved here.

Nancy did say, Uri, that many children are afraid to come forward, faced with this problem.

OXMAN: Larry, Jermaine brought up the "GQ" magazine. It's from Sarah Fisher (ph), who wrote this article in October of 1994 immediately after the district attorney declined prosecution of Michael.

KING: Then why did they settle the case?

OXMAN: Well, I'm going to ask people to take a look at that magazine, because it discusses a drug called sodium amytal, which is a hallucinogenic barbiturate. The Nazis used it during interrogations in World War II.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

OXMAN: I'm sorry. That's what the article said.


GRACE: First this is a race attack. Now it is sodium pentathol.

KING: And who used the drug?

OXMAN: It is a hallucinogen. And this is what the article says.

KING: Then why did they settle?

OXMAN: This was probably the most controversial publicized case in the entire history of American justice.

KING: Yes, but if he didn't do it, you don't settle.

OXMAN: Ah, but people were paid money. There were people from the Philippines who were housekeepers paid $500,000 by the tabloids for their story, bodyguards who were paid $200,000 for their stories. It became a checkbook journalistic nightmare.

KING: All right, Jann, Jermaine is saying this has a lot to did with him being black. Do you think so?

CARL: Oh, I think it has everything to do with him being Michael Jackson. KING: If he were white...

CARL: And I don't think him being black has anything to do with...

KING: Well, Jermaine said that that's what he feels.

CARL: Right. That's true.

And then he made a claim that he was upset with "Entertainment Tonight." And then I don't know why he said that. "Entertainment Tonight," it is an entertainment news program. We air the sound bites of his brother Michael Jackson. We air the sound bites of Martin Bashir. We let our audience decide what they think. It is not for us to judge.

KING: Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I would just love to ask somebody here the burning questions. One, maybe you can answer it or Uri or Jermaine. Has Michael Jackson ever had psychiatric help? Has he seen a shrink? Do they think he needs to? And if he really cares for children that much, which is quite possible -- that's what he's saying -- why he would put himself in such a situation and invite Martin Bashir to take a look at him holding hands with a young man?

KING: That question should be asked of Brian.



GELLER: Larry...

KING: All right, Uri, let Brian answer and then you go.

OXMAN: For psychiatric evaluation, we have the plastic surgeon from the physician's office that Michael went to have his plastic surgery holding press conferences giving his statements to "NBC Dateline." Can you imagine Michael Jackson doing anything with any kind of psychiatric provider? It would be...

KING: You mean he can't seek psychiatric care?

OXMAN: I would have to say that he cannot.

KING: Because?

OXMAN: It is not within the realm of reason or possibility because of the hoopla, the magic and the commotion.

KING: If he just went to a psychiatrist?


OXMAN: We thought that people, when he went to a plastic surgeon, that they wouldn't disclose his confidential patient relationship. And he went and did it anyways.

CARL: But, Brian, isn't a therapist obligated by law -- by law?

OXMAN: So was the plastic surgeon.

CARL: The plastic surgeon has to answer to the exact same criteria that a psychiatrist does?

OXMAN: Exact same criteria. I teach legal ethics. And the ethical obligation is the same.


KING: We're going to get a break and we'll come back with more of this lively session. We'll start to include your phone calls.

Don't go away.


KING: We're back. We're going to go to your phone calls.

It would help if Michael himself came forward in a live setting.

OXMAN: I think Michael would enjoy it. But I've got to tell you that he, along with the entire family -- I think with the exception of Jermaine, who is so outspoken -- with the entire family, they're terrorized, Larry.

KING: Jermaine has been on this show. We would be happy to have him back.

OXMAN: I think Michael would enjoy it.

KING: But nobody can speak for you but you.

OXMAN: That's correct. And Michael would enjoy it. And, frankly, I think he is one of the most fantastic interview subjects and he is so well spoken that he really would be excellent. And you would enjoy him, too.


CARL: If Michael is listening, if you're listening right now, OK, Jane would love to. I would love you. But you know what?

KING: This wouldn't be a bad setting.

CARL: A live setting, I think all of his fans would like to hear him talk live.

GELLER: You know, Larry...

KING: Yes, Uri, go ahead.

GELLER: I was going to say that Michael invited Martin Bashir into his home because he has nothing to hide, nothing to be afraid of.

KING: Yes, but he let it be taped.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It can be edited.

KING: Yes, when you tape, you can edit.

GELLER: You know, Larry, I remember -- yes -- I remember that, months ago, you called me up and you asked me whether I'll tell Michael to get on your show. And I said that to Michael. And Michael is so hurt by the attacks, the criticism. The press, the media, in my opinion, are really trying to demolish him and character assassination.

KING: Yes, but no comment doesn't work.


GELLER: That's why he doesn't really do an American interview.

GRACE: That is so not true.

GELLER: Hey, wait a minute.

And I think that what made up Michael's mind, unfortunately, is when Bashir showed Michael a letter that Princess Diana wrote Martin Bashir praising Martin. And Michael adored Princess Diana. And he saw the letter and said: Well, if Martin Bashir interviewed Diana and if Diana wrote that...

KING: He made a mistake.

GELLER: Martin you can come to my home.

He did -- I think it was a mistake.


KING: I can't speak for CNN. I think they would give him two hours.

CARL: Two hours of live television.

KING: Live conversation and he could take phone calls. We could take phone calls.


KING: Anything he wants to talk about, we'll talk about.

Nancy wanted to say something. I've got get in some calls.

Nancy, go ahead.

GRACE: Yes, I was just listening to Uri. And what I think is mistaken is this out-to-get-Michael-Jackson thing. Larry, I grew up loving Michael Jackson, watching him. When he sings and dances, it is as if he's in a trance. He's fantastic. But, Larry, I just got to go back to the truth. You go in and out when you go to commercial, Larry, with these fantastic shots of him singing and dancing. He's a megastar. He's untouchable.

OXMAN: But that's the truth.

GRACE: But I'm telling you, this boy, two-thirds of this can be corroborated by other people. So why would he lie about the molestation part? It is in graphic detail. It just seems true.

KING: All right, let me get a call.

Pleasanton, California, hello.

CALLER: Good evening. My question is for Brian, Michael's attorney.

KING: Yes.

CALLER: Now, I also have been a fan of his for many years, for about 30 years.

Isn't he kind of tired of everybody now getting on his case all the time of having these sleepovers? My question is, does he ever have any girls sleep over? And why doesn't he just sleep in a different room and that way nobody will have anything to talk about? Have different rooms where they keep -- he's in a separate room with his own children.

KING: That was Jann's question earlier. Inappropriate?

OXMAN: It is -- first of all, Michael will not change his character or his manner of operation for anybody. He does his life and he lives his life as God has given him the light to live it.

And it is almost a form of rebellion, where he says: Listen, I'm not doing anything wrong. So why is it that I should change my way of life? And I'm not going to do it. And he wants to help children.

KING: He pays a price for that, though.

OXMAN: He pays a price for it, absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, that's the problem. I watched him in court when he went like this as the jury was walking in, in a civil trial. Yes, that's defiant, but is that appropriate?

OXMAN: Michael does not like courtrooms.

KING: Nobody does.

OXMAN: Michael has a great distaste for courtrooms. CARL: But if he loves children and he wants to help children and he wants to create these charities, when he puts himself in a situation like this, where people have doubt, doesn't it take away his ability to help children?

KING: Reno, Nevada, hello. Reno, hello. Reno, are you there? Goodbye.

Montreal, hello.


How long will it take the media to stop talking about Michael Jackson?

KING: Yes, when does that go away? Probably never, right?

CARL: I would have to say as long as the ratings are as high as they are, as long as the interest is there by the majority of the viewers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And as long as he keeps doing things like dangling his baby outside of a Berlin hotel balcony.

CARL: Yes.

OXMAN: Oh, the chestnut of the dangling of the baby. He's trying to present his child to the world. If you remember, in "The Lion King," Mufasa presented Simba to the world.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can't compare him to a cartoon.

OXMAN: Not a cartoon. How about Alex Haley and "Roots"? We had Kunta Kinte presented to the tribe in the same manner. It is an African tradition.

GRACE: Not off the balcony. Not off the balcony.


OXMAN: And I dislike the insensitivity to the traditional. We admit he didn't do the greatest job. We acknowledge that. But that's what his intention was.

KING: By the way, the fallout, here's an example. Speaking of fallout, there's "Oprah Winfrey Show" today. Watch.


OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: That does not matter if nothing sexual is going on. That does not matter.


WINFREY: And you know what? Maybe he doesn't know. Maybe nobody ever told him. So now we are saying it. I'm saying it. Maybe nobody ever said to him, grown men don't have children in their beds.


KING: Jane Velez, he can resurrect all this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don't think anything is impossible.

And I disagree with people who say that the media is out to get him. There is such a tremendous amount of goodwill. I, as a journalist, as an individual, would love nothing more than to find out that Michael Jackson is completely innocent, see him do his work at Neverland.

KING: Why would people be after something they like?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the problem is that he keeps doing things that not only raise suspicion, but that draw suspicion right to him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, there are some people who think that he actually orchestrated all this subconsciously to get attention.

KING: That's what I was saying. He should be forward more, so we would know him.


CARL: ... more and more until he comes forward.

OXMAN: I think you have a point, but the man has been under this kind of commotion since he was 8 years old. And I have been in the crowds. I have seen it. It is frightening. And it is almost a method of coping with the commotion that we take on a childlike attitude. And we say, listen, I'm just going to enjoy the world for what it is.

GRACE: Brian...

KING: I've got to go to break and then Nancy can ask Brian something.

We'll be right back. Don't go away.



KING: I've had people tell me that Michael Jackson is a great father.

JANET JACKSON, SISTER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: He is wonderful, a wonderful father. All my brothers are really good with their children, and my sisters.

KING: Is Michael happy about your career? JANET JACKSON: Yes. He expresses all the time how proud he is of me. He's always giving me advice: Slow down. Look back and enjoy and don't work too hard. And if this tour becomes too difficult for you, you take your rest. You take your time off.


KING: We only have about five minutes remaining. I want everyone to get a chance to have some closing comments. We'll do a lot more on this.

But Nancy wanted to ask something of Brian.


GRACE: Right. And I'll make it quick, Larry.

I've got in my hand again the affidavit of Jordy, not the cancer victim. This is another boy that had sleepovers with Jackson. You said that this was all about extortion. Question to you: Why wasn't this child's father prosecuted for extortion if you claim that was why, what this was all about?

OXMAN: Jordy is the one and only individual who has ever made these accusations.

GRACE: Right. Why no extortion?

OXMAN: The father wanted a three-movie-right deal. It was absolutely a commotion of major proportions as to what the father wanted. And I don't think I can comment on really what the nature of the settlement is or why people weren't prosecuted.

KING: You don't think it was prosecutable?

GRACE: You're the one that said it was extortion, but you won't tell us why there was no charge.

OXMAN: I'm going to step out slightly on a limb and say, in my opinion, no. But that's all I can say.

KING: It wasn't extortion?

OXMAN: Extortion.

KING: Legal extortion.

OXMAN: Larry, I am burning to tell you my opinion. You can read my opinion in my face. And I won't answer your question, because I think I can't go that far.

KING: Uri, is this going to go away or get worse for Michael?

GELLER: I think Michael is invincible and he will ride this out. There is a lot more to come from Michael. And before the show is over, I would like to make a very important point, that I managed to negotiate a very, very substantial payment from the makers of the Bashir interview for sick children. So, wherever this documentary will take Michael Jackson, sick children will benefit from it.

KING: That's one good thing.

You think, Jane Velez, whatever it is, he should come forward?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we don't know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nobody knows what happens behind closed doors. But I think Michael Jackson is living his life on a somewhat faulty premise. And I really think that, if he became more self-aware and got some introspection, some help, and spoke more, he might be able to put his life in more order.

KING: Could he satisfy you, Nancy Grace?

GRACE: Yes, I think so.

KING: He can't talk about the...

GRACE: But what would really satisfy me is the story of this child. But you know what? Bottom line, he's talented. He's a millionaire. He's untouchable. And no one has ever said no to him.

OXMAN: Oh, I disagree. I disagree. The nos are no every place he goes.

KING: Really?

OXMAN: He can't go places. He can't do things with people on an ordinary basis. His family says no to him.

CARL: Like what? What do you mean? Where can he not go?

OXMAN: He can't go out and buy shaving cream at the store.

CARL: Not because people tell him no.


OXMAN: He can't. You think about...

CARL: Yes, but that's not because people tell him no.


GRACE: We're talking about shaving cream and we're looking at child molestation charges. And that's incredible to me.

GELLER: The commotion is unbelievable. OXMAN: Uri is absolutely right.

No, I'm talking about just a day-to-day life. I went to New York City with La Toya. And we had lunch at a restaurant and we wanted to walk back to the hotel. The commotion on the streets of New York were so enormous for La Toya, who is an absolute charm.

GELLER: Larry...

OXMAN: And Michael double, triple and 10 times. It is incredible.

KING: Uri, what do you want to say?

GELLER: Yes, Brian, it is incredible.

When I took Michael Jackson to Exeter, we went through the Paddington train station here in England. And he was almost killed.

OXMAN: And people were almost killed, yes.

GELLER: It was unbelievable. He was thrown to the ground. There were 1,000 fans pressing us against a train. I just could not believe what was happening. And this is just one moment in Michael Jackson's life. I just cannot understand how...

KING: So, we're saying -- we're running out of time.


KING: Uri, we're running out of time.

He can't lead a life, is what they're saying.

CARL: Yes, not that people tell him no, but it is impossible for him to do those things.

And I will -- and I don't want it to sound like a shameless plug, Larry, but it sort of will sound like -- but it will sound like one. Michael Jackson has given "Entertainment Tonight" some home movies and some clips. Now, granted, it is Michael's view. It is what he wants his fans to see.

KING: You're going to show them?

CARL: We're going to show them. We're going to show them on the weekend show. And we have got more Monday night. But, again, I don't pretend that it tells us anything other than what Michael wants us to see.

KING: And I'm sure "Celebrity Justice" is not going to leave this story alone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We're not. We think it's a story of importance. And we think it has larger ramifications. It concerns issues that involve children. And it is a valid story, no matter what anybody says.

KING: We thank the panel. We thank the panel very much.

I'll be back to tell you about tomorrow night right after this.


KING: Tomorrow night on "LARRY KING WEEKEND," Howard Lutnick will be with us to discuss the aftermath of 9/11; Sunday night, Christopher Reeve.



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