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CNN TALKBACK LIVE

Free-For-All Friday

Aired January 10, 2003 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Today on TALKBACK LIVE: North Korea sets the world community on edge as it pulls out of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Is it a now greater threat than ever to world peace? And what should the White House do next?
Outgoing Illinois Governor George Ryan gives some death row inmates a parting gift. Why did he do it? And how do victims' families feel about it? Do you think it's time for a national moratorium on the death penalty?

And, in New Jersey, a tragic case of child abuse ends in death and starvation. Is the state child welfare agency partly to blame?

Let's start talking right now.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. And today is "Free-For-All Friday."

Now, someone is going to have to explain how the death of a 7- year-old boy and the starving of his two brothers happened despite complaints to New Jersey's child welfare agency. Now, this heartbreaking case of abuse has outraged New Jersey's governor and put the agency on notice. Now, we're awaiting the governor's news conference, which should be happening momentarily. And, of course, we'll bring it to you live when it does happen.

In the meantime, CNN correspondent Jamie Colby is following this story and joins us now from New York.

And, Jamie, if you can go ahead and give us a little idea of what the governor is going to talk to us about.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Arthel.

Earlier this week, the governor was quite outspoken about the case, calling it a Third World debacle. And since then, he's been working diligently with the commissioner of human services first to suspend the case worker that was handling the boy's case -- also, a supervisor was suspended -- and to come up with some better parameters for case load management, because the potential exists that the case worker in this case and many other cases has too many cases to be able to actually go and physically visit the children, which didn't happen in this case, and also to set up a program going forward where each and every child in the system will get a personal visit, a tracking program where, if the child cannot be found, the governor has authorized extraordinary measures to find each and every one of those children.

And, also, Arthel, at this conference, we're expected to hear the results of an independent state report that was conducted on the case to find out exactly what happened to the boys.

NEVILLE: Jamie, in the meantime, tell us about Sherry Murphy. What's the latest on her?

COLBY: She was arrested. She was arraigned this morning. She chose not to appear in court. But a public defender did enter a plea of not guilty. The judge initially set bail in the case of $250,000, but had revoked the bail shortly thereafter because of a probation violation that Murphy had.

Right now, she's facing three charges of child endangerment, one for each of the boys. But those charges could be upgraded now that Faheem Williams' death has been ruled a homicide. We're awaiting word on that.

NEVILLE: Right. And, in the meantime, what about the biological mother of these boys?

COLBY: Well, Melinda Williams was on her way to see the boys on Sunday after an aunt called her notifying that they had been found.

She had been in prison on a separate child abuse charge in connection with the care of the boys. And when she got out of jail in August, she couldn't find the boys because Murphy had moved with them. When her aunt called her to tell her where they were, she was on her way to Newark and reported to police that she was involved in a car accident, actually hit by a car. And she's been in a New York City hospital ever since then.

CNN was told this morning that her condition, however, has been upgraded. She's moved from intensive care to a step-down unit. But her injuries are serious.

NEVILLE: And, Jamie, talk about the little boys for me. What happens to them?

COLBY: Well, this is the very sad part of the story, Arthel, if it isn't sad enough. It turns out that the two boys that survived, 4- year-old Tyrone and 7-year-old Raheem Williams, the twin of the brother that was discovered in that bin in the basement, they have different fathers. And the father of 4-year-old Tyrone has called Mayor Sharpe James to say he'd like his son back.

Now, Tyrone's father lives in Vermont. The mayor is very concerned at this point that the boys might be separated. In the two visits he had with the boys in the hospital, the hospital wanted to give the boys two rooms instead of one, and they clung to each other...

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Of course.

COLBY: ... when they heard they had to be separated. NEVILLE: Oh, man. Jamie, hang on for me now.

I want to go to California, because I have Ivy calling in to voice her opinion on this story.

Go ahead, Ivy.

COLBY: Sure.

CALLER: Hello, Arthel.

I really believe that the social services are definitely to blame for this. We are hearing too many of these incidents on these dear little children. And, if I remember correctly, abuse had been reported at the house. Why don't they follow up with these children? It just seems like they don't care. And I think they need to do something drastically at social services. This is happening too often. And it's really, really sad.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Ivy, for calling in.

Jamie, you heard the caller. And Ivy raises a really good point. We had the case of Rilya Wilson in Florida, the same thing. These kids are falling through the cracks. This is unacceptable.

COLBY: Yes.

I was going to say, Arthel, it's important to note that this is not a problem that's just limited to New Jersey. So many kids are in the system. There are some 47,000 kids in the system in New Jersey right now. And some of these case workers are reporting that they have more cases than they can handle.

But we should note that many of the people that do this type of work -- and you can imagine how emotionally challenging it is for a case worker to go into a home and see a child who been abused and want to do so much for them, but have to do it for so many. There may be very many good case workers out there. It may be the system to blame. And that's Governor McGreevey is taking a hard look at both the case worker responsibility and the system responsibility...

NEVILLE: Sure.

COLBY: ... to figure what can be improved in both situations.

NEVILLE: You're right, Jamie. Certainly, no one is here painting all case workers with the same brush and saying it's their fault. I'm sure they are doing their best.

And, listen, hopefully the governor will go ahead and implement some reforms. Have you had a chance at all to talk to some of the people there in the New York-New Jersey area regarding this particular story?

COLBY: Sure. But, as can you imagine, this case has touched people all around the country. Many, many calls came in during that nationwide search. People were so highly motivated to find a woman who could keep children locked in a basement.

And "The New York Post" reported that, when police went into the house and saw the conditions, which were just horrific, they found Murphy's cat and sufficient amounts of cat food, a very plump cat, as "The Post" reported it.

NEVILLE: Preston here in the audience from Georgia, what do you think and how do you feel when you hear and read stories like this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, when I hear about the children, it just drives me crazy and hurts. I think of my own children at that particular moment.

But I think the thing that drives me, being a father, is, where are the dads? I heard that there were two different dads. And I think that's the thing that just infuriates most people is that, if there's somebody out there that is responsible for these children, let them step up to the plate. And let's drive further back, because the social services -- ultimately, it's the parents' fault. That's all. That's the beginning and the end.

NEVILLE: Your point is, there wouldn't be such a load on the caseworkers if parents were more responsible?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Absolutely, if we would just drive that back home and make the parents responsible.

NEVILLE: Thank you.

COLBY: Arthel?

NEVILLE: OK, listen, stand by for me, Jamie. We do see that the governor, McGreevey, is approaching. He's at the podium now. We're going to listen in.

(INTERRUPTED FOR LIVE EVENT)

NEVILLE: OK, we've been listening to New Jersey Governor James McGreevey and other New Jersey officials on a tragic case of child abuse. A 7-year-old boy was killed. His two brothers were found starving and beaten in a basement.

We have to take a break right now.

And up next: North Korea exposes its nuclear teeth and sets the world on edge. We'll try to find out what North Korean diplomats are telling New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson.

And then later: Governor George Ryan of Illinois gives death row inmates a reason to live. Do you think it is time for a national moratorium on the death penalty?

Go ahead and give me a call or e-mail me at TALKBACK@CNN.com.

And we are back after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville.

North Korea announced today that it has decided to pull out of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Now, President Bush clearly is concerned. The announcement came as North Korean diplomats met with New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson for a second day.

CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is in Santa Fe.

And, Bob, how's it going down there?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as a matter of fact, there's the possibility raised that it could extend to a third day. That's still up in the air.

Everybody's on a break right now. The two North Korean people from the United Nations delegation and New Mexico Democratic Governor Bill Richardson, who was a former U.N. ambassador in the Clinton administration, have been meeting. Throughout the morning, they met. And the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty action by North Korea, we're told by sources, was a major part of the discussion.

Richardson, of course, on the one hand, is representing not the administration. The administration says he does not speak officially. It's a delicate dance. On the other hand, Richardson is in constant contact with the secretary of state, Colin Powell. So, he's acting on very specific instructions.

We don't know yet what the North Korean response to the discussion about the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty was. We are told repeatedly, this is not a negotiation. At best, this is a discussion about how to have further discussions, official discussions, later.

NEVILLE: And, Bob, of course, we know that Governor Richardson has some extensive negotiating experience and has been in North Korea before. Why him, though, now for this particular meeting?

FRANKEN: Well, both the North Korean government and the Bush administration have some reasons why they would like to have him here.

First of all, the North Koreans, they know Bill Richardson. They've dealt with him extensively. He's been, several times, in the country, leading missions of a very delicate nature, negotiating the release of people who were being held, and the like. He was also the U.N. ambassador. He is personally known to the members of the North Korean U.N. delegation.

As far at the Bush administration is concerned, it gets, on the one hand, to get its positions out there to the North Korean government, but, on the other hand, to claim at all times he does not speak for the administration. This is not an official discussion. It's the kind of thing that may seem silly to those of us on the outside, but is extremely important in the diplomatic world. NEVILLE: Indeed it is. Bob Franken, thanks so much for joining us here today.

OK, everybody, it's Friday, so it's to time to meet our "Free- For-All Friday" guests.

One of our favorites is back today: Sarah Ferguson, the duchess of York.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Hey, Fergie. As well as the spokeswoman for Weight Watchers she is author of a new book called "What I Know Now: Simple Lessons Learned the Hard Way."

Also: Becky Norton Dunlop. She is vice president for external relations at the Heritage Foundation. She also served as a senior official in the Reagan administration.

Hello, Becky.

And Roland Martin -- hello -- editor of BlackAmericaWeb.com and news editor for "Savoy" magazine. And Lionel is a nationally syndicated talk show host and a former criminal defense attorney.

Hey, Lionel.

All right, Becky, you are up first today. Do you think North Korea is on a warpath or are they looking for concessions and financial support from the West?

BECKY NORTON DUNLOP, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I think they're really looking for concessions. They would like to be accepted into the community of nations. And they wanted to get somebody's attention here.

Obviously, we need to be concerned, because we do think they have nuclear weapons. But the bottom line is, they have not been aggressors against their neighbors. They have an imploding circumstance in their own country. And I think this is saber-rattling and they're interested in getting our attention.

NEVILLE: Roland, are they trying to get the U.S.' attention?

ROLAND S. MARTIN, BLACKAMERICAWEB.COM: I think they've gotten our attention very quickly.

They obviously are taking advantage of our focus on Iraq. The president made the axis of evil statement earlier in the year, last year. Now, all of a sudden, they're pulling out. They are targeting America. And, clearly, they want to get our attention. And, frankly, the Bush administration must be very careful when it comes to the tough rhetoric, because this causes these kinds of reactions when we do that.

NEVILLE: OK, Lionel, how do you see it? LIONEL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: First of all, can I officially state that there is no such word as "nucular." Let's just -- once and for all, there is no "nucul."

No. 2, if we're going after Iraq for being evil and having weapons of mass destruction, then why aren't we going after North Korea? I can't imagine a more blatant saber-rattling, run by a psychotic leader. And yet the president keeps telling us, trust me, Iraq is the place to go. You know why? Oil.

MARTIN: Oil.

NEVILLE: All right.

LIONEL: Do you know why we're not going into North Korea? Because they got a couple of cases of Quaker State. There's no oil there. This is a fraud. They're making a laughingstock out of us.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, I haven't heard from Fergie yet.

You've heard the panel. Lionel says this is about oil. And they're saying that North Korea definitely has gotten everybody's attention. What do you think? Do you think Iraq or North Korea is the bigger problem now?

SARAH FERGUSON, DUCHESS OF YORK: Well, I see here that talks were cordial, but candid. And I think, as long as that remains the case, we're OK. I think communication has to remain open. It's when silence steps in and then that's a very volatile situation. And that's when real fears come along.

If North Korea closes down and silence comes, then there's real trouble. And I think that ought to be taken into account. I think communication is the most key thing here today.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

And speaking of communication, Roland, I'm wondering if you think the president, President Bush, communicated the wrong message by referring to North Korea as part of the axis of evil?

MARTIN: Well, frankly, when the president, who likes to go the cowboy way with some of his statements -- and, frankly, he leaves it to Secretary Colin Powell to clean up his mess. And that's the problem.

And, of course, he is a fellow Texan, as I am. But, frankly, we don't need that talk by anybody who represents the United States.

NEVILLE: OK, panel, let me interrupt here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Oh, yes. It is Friday. Welcome back, everyone.

Should Americans be in Iraq singing about peace? Four Americans are in Iraq this week; all of them family members of 9/11 victims on a six-day peace mission. Now, they are being escorted to spots around Baghdad, like hospitals and a destroyed shelter, where Iraq claims more than 400 civilians were killed in the 1991 Gulf War. Now you might remember a while back actor Sean Penn went to Iraq to do a little inspecting of his own, and he spoke about that in an interview with Larry King.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: We start by taking out a pad of paper, and every mother and father in the country -- and they can do it while this interview goes on -- writes down the words "Dear Mr. and Mrs. so and so, we regret to inform you that your son John has died in combat in Iraq." And then you have to finish that letter in a way with that will comfort you.

If you can do that, then you have one side the debate, and I respect that position. But until we have the information, until we demand upon ourselves to avail ourselves with that information upon our government to show us the evidence that they have, as long as we are going to be a country with a respected rule of law, we have to understand that, if we go to war without having examined these things, that we're then going to be left with the question, what America is it we've protected?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Now you can catch the rest of that interview on "LARRY KING WEEKEND." That's tomorrow at 9:00 Eastern. And Lionel, going with you on this. Does Sean Penn have a point?

LIONEL: You know, my first reaction was, who in the hell is Sean Penn? But after having...

NORTON DUNLOP: Excellent point, Lionel.

LIONEL: ... listened to him, I think he makes absolutely perfect sense. With all due respect, who are we? We're on TV right now. I've got Sarah Ferguson -- bless your heart, you're looking terrific -- two other people I don't know, and me, some schmuck in New York. So why is Sean Penn any less able to voice his opinion than we are? I think he's got more credibility. I think he makes a lot of sense.

MARTIN: Arthel, there was an HBO that premiered a few months ago that dealt with LBJ and the Vietnam War. And the most compelling scene of that film was the shots of the paper on his desk, that he signed each and every letter that was sent to parents whose children died in the war. That was effective to understand the depths of war.

The problem is you have individuals out here who have no concept of war, who are saying send our troops. Sure, no problem. Yet they're not taking in the consequence that people right now who are saying we should not extend the deadline, although the inspectors said give us more time.

The important thing is if you give them more time to get the evidence, you may save lives. That is critical.

NORTON DUNLOP: Look my -- Arthel, I appreciate the opportunity. I think that, you know, people are losing sight of the focus here. We know that Saddam Hussein has murdered people in his own country. He has attacked his neighbors.

I think that we have ample evidence here that this is a madman who is comparable to Adolf Hitler. And the United States government, the president of the United States has a responsibility to look after the safety of the people in the free world. And every person who joins the military of this country understands that they are prepared and they are volunteering to give their life for freedom. We must understand that.

(APPLAUSE)

MARTIN: Excuse me, Becky. Didn't you work in the Reagan administration?

NORTON DUNLOP: I did.

MARTIN: Wasn't that the same administration who funded Saddam Hussein when we didn't like Iran? Was that the same administration?

NORTON DUNLOP: Let me -- what you need to understand, my friend...

MARTIN: No, no, no. We knew he was a killer when we funded him. So don't sit here and say he's a killer when we were in bed with him.

NORTON DUNLOP: ... circumstances change at different times in this world. And this man we know is a killer, he has turned against the principles of liberty and freedom that we hold dear.

LIONEL: Do you know what's going to happen? Oh, come on.

MARTIN: He was a killer then, he's a killer now. But now he's (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

LIONE: Do you know what we're saying?

FERGUSON: Hello? Can I speak?

NEVILLE: Yes, go ahead.

FERGUSON: I think there's going to be a punch out between you two and we're all about communication here. I was just going to say that Sean Penn and the families of 9/11 and -- they have a right to travel to Baghdad; they have a right to communicate if that's what they wish. I don't know. I can't interact with Saddam Hussein in discussions like that. But if it helps peace, and it's on their way (ph) and it makes them feel better, then they have that right to do that.

NEVILLE: OK. NORTON DUNLOP: Well they certainly do have the right to do that, and we must always keep that in mind and we must be sensitive to the families of the 9/11 victims. But let us not lose sight of the fact that this dictator has murdered people in his own country and in neighboring countries.

LIONEL: Can I add something, Arthel?

NEVILLE: Go ahead, Lionel.

LIONEL: What is amazing to me is this mantra. Everybody comes on these Bush apologists. And you know what, if there's weapons of mass destruction, show me a picture. Show me something. Don't give me this, "Take my word for it."

Do you know what they say? Saddam Hussein is evil. He's gassed his own people. He has weapons of mass destruction. So do we, so does North Korea. Everybody does.

What happens if tomorrow India says, you know what, we're going to do a preemptive strike against Pakistan. We can do it. What if China goes into Taiwan? In the history of the United States of America, we have never on our own invaded a sovereign nation on faith that he may or might use weapons that nobody's found yet. This is absolutely absurd.

NORTON DUNLOP: Lionel, I think you're making a big mistake here. Saddam Hussein is comparable to Adolf Hitler.

LIONEL: Oh stop it.

NORTON DUNLOP: And you may have been making the same arguments in the 1940s that you are making today.

LIONEL: How about North Korea?

(CROSSTALK)

NORTON DUNLOP: But Adolf Hitler killed millions of people, and we regret that we didn't go sooner.

LIONEL: Anybody that we think is bad, we go in now and we take them out without any evidence, because we think...

NORTON DUNLOP: This is not thinking. This is knowing he has murdered people in his own country, has attacked and murdered people.

NEVILLE: Roland, I'll give you the final word on this segment.

LIONEL: China's murdered people. Fidel Castro has murdered people.

NEVILLE: Roland, final word.

MARTIN: All I ask is that the administration not be hypocritical and say that he was a killer. He was a killer when we were in bed with him, and he's a killer now. Is he more of a killer now or less? I mean, make a decision.

NEVILLE: OK. We are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for this topic. Up next: for four men on Illinois; death row, that is, coming up next. There are the pictures right there. They hear a life-saving message. Find out why the governor has pardoned them, and find out if you think there should be a national moratorium on the death penalty. Don't go anywhere. The talk continues after this break.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. Outgoing Illinois Governor George Ryan has pardoned four death row inmates just days before leaving office. He says the system failed the men when they were tortured into confessing by Chicago police. Now some 140 other death row inmates have high hopes he'll do the same for them come Monday, or before Monday, which is when he's out of office.

CNN's Chicago Bureau Chief Jeff Flock joins us with details -- Jeff.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREA CHIEF: Arthel, a bitter, bitter cold day in Chicago today, but a very happy one for those four men. We are outside Cook County Jail. Perhaps you see it back here behind me. It is where Leroy Orange, one of the four men, may walk free any moment now. Actually, his attorneys just went inside to talk to them. They're going to pick him up.

Let's show you the four men. Number one, Aaron Patterson, Madison Hobley, they're both in Pontiac Prison downstate, about two hours from Chicago. Leroy Orange is here at Cook County Jail. Stanley Howard, another man, will not walk free because he has other charges or other convictions pending. He has to do time for those.

But a big day for the four of them. And then, Arthel, another big day tomorrow, because those other inmates you mentioned, Governor Ryan will likely commute many of their sentences to life in prison from death.

I just talked to Governor Ryan a few moments ago. He said the decision is not final for him. He has a list of people, but he doesn't have a finalist. So he's still working on that even as we speak -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Now let's talk about the former Chicago police commander, Jon Burge. He allegedly allowed the torture. Now where is he?

FLOCK: He is point south, somewhere a lot warmer than we are right now. At one point he was out West. Another report has him somewhere in Florida. He was removed from the police force.

An internal investigation of the Chicago police force found that there was evidence that he commanded a unit that frequently in a systemic way tortured suspects, tortured convictions out of them. In fact, these four men all claim they had confessions tortured out of them. They all confessed.

NEVILLE: And Jeff, what have you heard from the families of the deceased?

FLOCK: The families of the victims now?

NEVILLE: Correct.

FLOCK: Is that what you said, Arthel?

NEVILLE: That's what I said.

FLOCK: In the case of these four, these were fairly sympathetic creatures, the guys that are coming out today. Not a lot of family members have had negative things to say. In one case, other people have also been convicted of the crime. So not so much today.

Tomorrow we're going to hear from family members, because you're having guys tomorrow probably who may well be guilty. The governor's not going to say that they're not guilty. He's simply going to commute their sentence, saying perhaps they were treated unfairly in the judicial process. So there you're going to have some families really upset that people are not getting death that many family members think they deserve.

NEVILLE: OK. Jeff Flock, thank you very much for that update.

FLOCK: Thanks.

NEVILLE: And going to our panel now -- yes. I want to start with Fergie on this one. You had an interesting question regarding this.

FERGUSON: Yeah. Well, if the four are going to be aloud to go free, I don't understand why there couldn't be a retrial of the four? Because I'm really concerned about the families of the victims. Because if -- I understand that they're going to be pardoned, but they're going to be pardoned and allowed to go completely free. And yet tomorrow, the other people who have been on death penalty are now maybe life imprisonment.

NEVILLE: Correct.

FERGUSON: So I'd like to know why these four are being allowed to go completely free without a retrial?

NEVILLE: Lionel, you want to jump in on that?

MARTIN: Because they didn't do it. Because they didn't do it. The confessions were beaten. They were innocent.

FERGUSON: But why were they there in the first place if they didn't do it? Was there no evidence (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at all?

LIONEL: He was electrocuted. He had electricity applied to his genitals and perianal region in order to get him to confess. Keep in mind also, this governor should be heralded. God bless him.

We are a bloodthirsty country. There are people all over the country -- take it from me, as an ex-prosecutor and ex-criminal defense lawyer, there are people you'll never hear about. These cases didn't involve DNA. These cases involved taking individuals that we would have never known about and torturing confessions out of them in America.

NORTON DUNLOP: Well I think if this is accurate information about these prisoners being tortured, then the former police officer who oversaw this should be brought to trial immediately.

LIONEL: Yes.

MARTIN: Oh, yeah, right.

NORTON DUNLOP: This is not appropriate behavior by police in our country. And it should not be allowed to stand.

FERGUSON: What is he doing in Florida? Why is he in Florida? What's he doing in Florida?

NORTON DUNLOP: Evidently he's left the police force, Fergie. Evidently he's left and has gone off to do other things. But that should not preclude him from being brought to trial.

LIONEL: Statute of limitations.

MARTIN: Arthel, here's one of our greater problems in this country. First of all, if you put those four photos up, beside the confessions being beaten, what do they have in common?

NEVILLE: Let me see. An audience member wants to answer that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm from Illinois, and I'm here to...

NEVILLE: What do they have in common?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're all black men, first of all.

LIONEL: They're black.

MARTIN: Now, just -- go ahead, I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me say this. In Chicago, the police department is notorious for beating confessions out of people. The difference in this particular case is this man got caught. That's the only difference. He got caught and exposed. But this has been going on through Chicago's history.

NEVILLE: OK. That's all the time we have for that topic. But stay right where you are, because up next, we're talking fast and furious. Our "Flash Round" is up. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(APPLAUSE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: All right. Welcome back, everybody. Time for our "Flash Round".

First up: new television ads are suggesting that if you drive an SUV you could be supporting terrorism, because they are such gas- guzzlers. Now, are the ads out of line, or do they have a point? And Fergie, I'll talk to you first.

FERGUSON: I haven't seen the ad, but support fuel economy.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

FERGUSON: Sorry, I don't have a comment.

NEVILLE: That's fine. No, that's a good comment. Fuel efficiency is good. OK. Let's go to Becky now.

NORTON DUNLOP: Well, terrorists kill, and SUVs save lives. And so I think that the ads are misplaced by people who just want to get attention.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: OK. Lionel?

LIONEL: I think the ads are about as ludicrous as the ads that show that if you buy a bag of pot you're supporting terrorism also. And also, why there's this attack on SUVs, would Jesus ride an SUV? An SUV is now the anathema of our country.

NEVILLE: OK. Up next: on the reality TV show "Joe Millionaire," 20 female contestants have been told their Mr. Right is a millionaire. Turns out he makes about $19,000 a year. Most of our mothers told us not to lie. So is it OK for a TV show to lie? Fergie, it's never OK to lie, is it?

FERGUSON: Lies are not good, but it is TV. It is make-believe. I mean, it's taking people into another world of magic and make believe. You know?

NEVILLE: Good point.

FERUSON: So I don't know whether it's a lie or not. If people are watching...

NEVILLE: That's right -- Becky.

NORTON DUNLOP: Lying is never justifiable. Bad idea.

NEVILLE: Lionel.

LIONEL: I think it's one of the most despicable television shows I've ever seen on television and I watch it every week. This woman, whoever is the dupee (ph), I think she's got a cause of action for fraud and intentional infliction of emotional distress when she is made a complete fool across the world. It's despicable, but I'm going to watch it.

NEVILLE: OK. And finally, for the millionaire who has everything, a family was auctioning itself off e-Bay. That's right. They were described as an attractive two-child family with a gorgeous mother and an award-winning television writer father. Now e-Bay pulled the offer down after saying it didn't meet their guidelines.

Can't blame a family for trying, or just plain tacky? Fergie, what's up with that? They're trying to auction themselves off on e- Bay?

FERGUSON: Put me last. Put Lionel first. I want to hear...

NEVILLE: OK. Lionel, you're first, then.

LIONEL: Can you tell me what exactly we're going to do with this family once we buy them?

FERGUSON: Thank you. I'm glad you didn't understand that.

LIONEL: I mean are we going to consume them, is it sexual? I mean what is it? I get the family and do I look at them?

NEVILLE: Quickly, Becky.

NORTON DUNLOP: Well, it's weird, and I bet this TV writer is just looking for a job.

NEVILLE: All right. Listen, I'm out of time. Sarah Ferguson, Becky Norton Dunlop and Lionel, thank you so much for joining me, as well as Roland Martin.

And up next up: I'm going to take your phone calls and e-mails on the question of the day: Should there be a national moratorium on the death penalty? Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And it is time for our question of the day. Should there be a national moratorium on the death penalty? Going to the telephones now. Virginia is where Gloria's (ph) standing by. What you do you say, Gloria (ph)?

GLORIA: Absolutely. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are defenseless against the abuses and resources of police and prosecutors.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much, Gloria (ph). Going to an e-mail coming in right now. OK, it's from Kenny in Stockton, Missouri. "I definitely think there should be a national moratorium on the death penalty. There is no reason at all to be in such a rush to end these people's lives. OK. Thank you so much for responding. We are out of time today. Thanks so much for watching.

I'm Arthel Neville. Enjoy the weekend, everybody. I'll see you back here again Monday, 3:00 Eastern, noon Pacific, for more TALKBACK LIVE. Judy Woodruff is next with "INSIDE POLITICS."

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