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Journalist in Cloning Controversy Speaks Out; Deadly Plane Crash in Charlotte

Aired January 8, 2003 - 20:00   ET


CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Tonight: The man who was supposed to confirm claims of the first human clone explains why he now says it might be a hoax.
ANNOUNCER: An alien sect continues to say their human clone is for real.


DR. BRIGITTE BOISSELIER, CLONAID: She's alive. She's perfectly healthy. And the mother is also very healthy.


ANNOUNCER: Now the one journalist in the middle of the cloning controversy steps forward. Is it all an elaborate hoax?

No survivors: a deadly plane crash in Charlotte.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then, all of a sudden, it just flipped over and started nosediving straight into the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard the large boom and then somebody says, there's a plane crash.


ANNOUNCER: What went wrong on Flight 5481?

The contrast from this to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever had any desire for young children?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None whatsoever?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never fantasized about them?



ANNOUNCER: The interrogation of a killer.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then help us out. Let's get Danielle back.

WESTERFIELD: As far as I'm concerned, my life is over.


ANNOUNCER: David Westerfield grilled on tape about his role in the murder of Danielle van Dam.

She was sent away in tears.


TRISTA REHN, "THE BACHELORETTE": My life will go on. I'm OK.


ANNOUNCER: Now it's her turn to be the heartbreaker. Why would anyone want to put themselves through a reality TV relationship twice? We'll ask Trista.

And our "Person of the Day": a true lifesaver.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight: the man at the center of the latest cloning controversy.

It all started with a stunning announcement from a religious group that believes aliens used cloning to create the human race.


DR. BRIGITTE BOISSELIER, CLONAID: I'm very, very pleased to announce that the first baby clone is born.

MICHAEL GUILLEN, FREELANCE SCIENCE JOURNALIST: Dr. Boisselier has invited me to put her claim to the test. And I have accepted on behalf of the world's press on two conditions: that the invitation be given with no strings attached whatsoever; and, No. 2, that the test be conducted by a group of independent world-class experts.


CHUNG: That was former ABC News science editor Michael Guillen, now a freelance journalist.

This week, he made headlines on his own when he declared the claims may be an elaborate hoax and now finds himself in the eye of the storm of the cloning controversy. He joins us tonight to explain it all.

Michael, thank you for being with us.

GUILLEN: Good to be here, Connie.

CHUNG: Do you believe that Clonaid has successfully produced a cloned baby?

GUILLEN: I'm a scientist and a journalist. I trade not in believing or disbelieving. I believe in evidence. Seeing is believing.

We were not given the access that we were promised to take the required DNA tests. And, therefore, I have to say tonight, there is the possibility that this was a hoax. And until and unless we are given access, there is nothing more that I can say than that.

CHUNG: Well, as soon as they blocked any DNA testing, didn't that just say it all?

GUILLEN: I think it speaks for itself.

I mean, was there a very plainspoken understanding. I challenged Dr. Boisselier's claim that she had cloned...

CHUNG: By the way, she is not a medical dollar.

GUILLEN: No she's not. She is a chemist. She has got two Ph.D.s in chemistry.

So, let's just say Clonaid made the claim that they had cloned a human baby, no evidence whatsoever, unsubstantiated claim. And I did what I thought was the right thing to do. Instead of sitting impassively and wondering, is this true, is this not true, why not put it to the test?

CHUNG: Well, but you could have done that and not become part of the story. You literally were standing there at the news conference and became part of the story. You used to be a journalist. And if you believe that you still have any measure of credibility, you would not have done anything like that.

GUILLEN: If I look back, Connie, that's the one regret that I had, that, when I was there covering the news conference for the other journalists, I was sitting with the other journalists covering the news conference.

And when Boisselier mentioned my name as the person was going to put her claims to the test, I stood up and I was going to make a statement that, yes, in fact, I had challenged her claim, that I was going to put together an independent panel to review her claim. And, as I said that, all of the reporters in the room shouted at me: "Go to the podium. Go to the podium," because that's where all of the microphones were.

What I should have done was to stand my ground and just stand there and say, no, if you have a question for me, talk to me after the press conference. But instead, I was goaded to go to the podium. And it appeared to the viewers at home that I was basically entering stage right and that I was part of the press conference. And I regret that. That was a mistake.

CHUNG: But you had to have spoken to them before this news conference. So, you knew what was going to happen and you knew that you were going to assemble this group of scientific experts.

GUILLEN: Yes. Oh, yes. But I'm just saying, the visual image...

CHUNG: Well, then, doesn't that sound like you were in cahoots with them prior to the news conference?

GUILLEN: No. I don't think so. I wasn't the only reporter who knew that this announcement was going to be made.

CHUNG: Yes, but how did this deal come about?

GUILLEN: Just like any reporter who has access, I was told that she would be making this announcement and that there would be no evidence attached to the claim.

And I basically said to her, I propose to you to challenge your tests, to challenge your claim. Allow me to put together a team of independent experts, so we can put the claim to the test. It was as simple as that, Connie. There was no behind-the-scenes chicanery. It was just quite straightforward.

CHUNG: All right. Well, then, why were you so secretive about these individual scientists? You wouldn't reveal who they were going to be, when it was going to be done, or whatever.

GUILLEN: Oh, I see what you're saying. No, simply because we were told that we couldn't reveal the identity of this alleged mother and alleged clone. And so I couldn't reveal...

CHUNG: And you don't know the identity, correct?

GUILLEN: No. I haven't had any access to them at all, so that I couldn't reveal...

CHUNG: All right.

GUILLEN: I was just trying to answer your question.


GUILLEN: So I couldn't reveal the identity of the scientists that I put together, because every reporter in the world would follow them to the location.

But what I had said to the reporters is, when the time comes, I will reveal all the scientists that I have assembled, and you can judge for yourself. You can interrogate them. And can ask them all the questions. And you will see that we have put together an air- tight protocol for conducting the tests. There is nothing to hide.

CHUNG: Well, you know, don't you think that this group is a little kooky? How could you really even conceive that they might be legitimate? Because I think the conventional wisdom is that...

GUILLEN: When I first looked into the human cloning story, it was right after Ian Wilmut announced that he had cloned the sheep. Remember that? That was back in February of 1997.

CHUNG: Sure. Sure.

GUILLEN: And I realized, at that point, that the technique was so simple, that it was going to invite people in the world to try to apply that to the human...

CHUNG: I know what you're going to say, because you will go through the process and say that there are certain reasons why you think


GUILLEN: No, no, I was just answering your question, Connie. I was just simply saying to you that, when I did an Internet right after Wilmut announced cloning of the sheep, I discovered this group, the Raelians. And I had the very same reaction that the world did on December 27. I said, Oh, my God, these people can't be real.

But then, as I started looking into the story some more, just like any reporter would, I began discovering that, once you get past that UFO stuff and the alien stuff, there is a group...

CHUNG: How can you get past the UFO stuff and the alien stuff?

GUILLEN: Listen, people are entitled to believe...

CHUNG: You're a scientist.

GUILLEN: Of course I am.

CHUNG: You have been a legitimate journalist for many, many years. And I'm sure you pride yourself on that.

GUILLEN: Yes, ma'am.

CHUNG: But now, you know, Michael, I'm really wondering if the public, they hear a report from you, if they're going to believe you, if your credibility is intact, because you did put aliens, or whatever, when you got past that.

GUILLEN: Right. Well, everyone will have to decide for themselves. And I think there is room for disagreement as to whether I should have stuck my neck out or not. I think I did the right thing and I would do it again. I just want to get to the truth.

CHUNG: You do? You believe you did the right thing?

GUILLEN: Oh, absolutely. Of course.

The alternative was for all of us to just sit impassively and speculate, is she telling the truth or not? And this is an announcement with very grave consequences, ethically and morally. And so we are bound, responsible, to find out if this is a hoax or if she's telling the truth.

CHUNG: Sure, but you can do that as a journalist without becoming part of the story. And that's what happened to you. You became part of the story.

GUILLEN: Well, I suppose that, in sticking my neck out to assemble this independent team, I did attract attention. It was inevitable. That wasn't my purpose. My purpose, again, was simply to put her claim to the test.

And as far as their beliefs are concerned, as I say look past it, I meant by that that people are entitled to believe whatever they want. I'm a devout Christian, so I find their beliefs -- I can't identify with their beliefs whatsoever.

But, as an investigative reporter, what I found was that these were people when who were hell-bent on cloning, no matter what anybody said. And the technique for cloning is well-known. It's out there. And plus, a year ago, the National Academy of Sciences held a meeting on human cloning. And they invited Boisselier, Zavos and Antinori. So, even the National Academy of Sciences recognized that the Raelians, that Clonaid, were a major contender that were to be taken not lightly.

CHUNG: I will buy that, in other words, the National Academy of Sciences, but other than that...

GUILLEN: Listen, I'll grant you this. As I say, Connie, there is room for reasonable people to disagree whether I should have stuck my neck out to test.

But I just want to remind people that I was motivated simply for searching out the truth. It was the most natural thing for me to do, because I'm a scientist. I'm a journalist. I had been following the cloning story for six years. I heard this claim that was unsubstantiated. I challenged the claim.

She accepted my conditions. You heard them on the air, no strings attached, and that the testing be done not by me and Boisselier, because people may say, well, he's been close to the story. He's interested in doing a documentary.

CHUNG: Which we had heard you were selling for $100,000.

GUILLEN: Correct. Right. And that's not true.

CHUNG: So, there appears to be a conflict of interests.

GUILLEN: Right, but there isn't.

CHUNG: Some quid pro quo.

GUILLEN: Yes, ma'am.

But what I'm trying to suggest to you, Connie, is that there is no conflict of interests, because I was very careful to arrange for the independent experts to be the ones to collect the samples and to analyze them. I would have nothing to do with it whatsoever. So, there is no conflict of interests.

So, I would do it again. The only regret, as I said, is that I was goaded to go to the podium. I shouldn't. I should have stood my ground. And for that, it was an error of judgment. And I think that's the one thing -- well, I know that's the one thing I'd change. Otherwise, I would do the same thing again. It was the right thing to do.

CHUNG: Earlier, you said -- you cast some doubt. You thought maybe there is no baby. Maybe this is a hoax. But, then again, you said that you had some privileged information that might lead you to believe that indeed there was a cloned baby.

It's time to come clean. If you have privileged information, you need to tell it, not only for your own sake, but for the sake of everyone who wants to know the truth.

GUILLEN: You're a newswoman. You know that, in the course of collecting information on a story, there is a time and a place to do that.

And what I have said all along is that, when the time comes, when I feel that there is absolutely no hope of getting access to the couple, then I will reveal the experts to my fellow journalists. They'll be able to interrogate them, ask them any questions, and you will see...

CHUNG: But it's not the experts. It's not the experts.

GUILLEN: And also the information, Connie.

But you know we accumulate evidence as journalists and we don't necessarily go right to press. Journalists in newspapers, they will collect information and they wait for the right time to publish.

CHUNG: But would you say, at this moment...

GUILLEN: Yes, ma'am?

CHUNG: ... you are 90 percent convinced that there is no baby? GUILLEN: Again, I don't mean to be stubborn, but I'm a scientist. I don't like to speculate about believing, disbelieving, do I have a hunch or don't I have a hunch. I trade in evidence. It's just the facts that I'm after. And all I've ever...

CHUNG: And there is no evidence.

GUILLEN: Right. And there is no evidence.

And all I've ever wanted from day one -- and that's why I would do this all over again -- I'm quite proud of what I did -- is that I wanted to test the claim. This is an unsubstantiated claim. All I wanted to do is to test the DNA and lay it to rest. Is this a hoax or is this the truth?

CHUNG: All right, I hear you.

Thank you, Michael...

GUILLEN: You're welcome.

CHUNG: ... so much for being with us.

GUILLEN: Thank you, Connie. God bless you.

CHUNG: By the way, I want you to listen to this.

A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll found that 86 percent of 1,000 Americans polled think the government should make it illegal for people to have a baby through cloning. Interesting.

GUILLEN: I'm not surprised, yes.

CHUNG: Still ahead: searching for a missing pregnant woman the way Western posses used to search for bad guys.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: Why did a commuter airliner with 21 aboard crash in Charlotte? We'll talk to an eyewitness who saw the tragedy unfold -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.


CHUNG: Tonight: For the first time since 2001, an American commercial airliner has gone down. And there were fatalities.

You're about to meet a fire captain who was on the scene within minutes and a witness who videotaped some of the footage you're about to see in this report from CNN's David Mattingly.


DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It should have been just a half-hour flight, a quick commuter hop from Charlotte to Greenville, South Carolina. But on takeoff, the plane suddenly veered to the left, the pilot radioing to the tower there was an emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven't heard a tape, but I have been told that one of the crew members declared an emergency. He said, "We have an emergency." That's the extent of our knowledge of that right now.

MATTINGLY: The plane crashed at a maintenance hanger, just hundreds of feet from where it took off. A fireball, an explosion erupted, killing all 21 on board.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw him through my sunroof. And he was going straight up. It looked like the prop on the right side just completely stopped and he rolled on his back. And it came straight down and hit nose first, and just a huge fireball as soon as it hit.

MATTINGLY: This amateur video capturing the scene just minutes after the crash, showing churning clouds of smoke. Crash investigators will be closely examining wreckage of the Beechcraft 1900 turboprop operated by Air Midwest, the plane, according to FAA records, reporting minor maintenance problems last spring.

But in August, an alert was issued to mechanics to watch out on all 1900s for a loose bolt on a vertical stabilizer, a critical piece of flying equipment.

(on camera): But it is not known if this particular plane had that problem. The now-recovered cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder have investigators hopeful for some quick answers in this tragic crash.

David Mattingly, CNN, Charlotte, North Carolina.


CHUNG: And joining me now from Charlotte, North Carolina: witness David Isola and Charlotte fire department Captain Rob Brisley.

Thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

David, I know that you were on the airport property in your office and you heard this large boom. What did you do?

DAVID ISOLA, EYEWITNESS: Well, I heard the boom. And a lot of times, I hear a boom at the airport, so I wasn't sure it was anything. And then minutes later, one of the guys ran in there said a plane just crashed. So, then I ran outside and saw the black smoke.

CHUNG: David, could you tell from your vantage point if there were any survivors?


The flames were -- it looked like it was just too hot. And then the flames and the smoke was just too bad to really see anything that close.

CHUNG: Captain Brisley, I know you have been on many of these missions before. It has to be horrible, if you get there and you don't believe there are any survivors.


It's difficult when you have to perform a task like this, but the firefighters here at the airport station were there in less than two minutes. And the fire tack, the suppression went very quick. And, at the same time, there was firefighters in place to try to make a rescue, but this morning, it was unsuccessful.

CHUNG: That just must hurt so much, because I know that your whole mission is to try and save people.

Sir, tell me, I understand that the pilot was able to radio to the control tower that there was an emergency. Do you happen to know what the substance of his communication was?

BRISLEY: Well, not directly, Connie.

But the tower notified the fire department on scene at the airport within seconds. So, we were on our way in a matter of seconds. And we knew what we were going to as far as a crash vs. a building. And the fire department had smoke and flames visible, so we were able to communicate extra information, extra companies to come from outlying fire stations. The situation worked like it should. The equipment and firefighters were in place.

But it's still difficult when you have to go to something as tragic as this.

CHUNG: Captain, an eyewitness said that he thought he saw that the plane had landed upside down. Is that what you could see?

BRISLEY: Well, by the time I arrived, there was incredible fire operations under way and secondary searches. So, the specifics of how this plane crashed or where it struck, that's going to be an NTSB-type question.

CHUNG: David, have you ever seen anything like what you saw today?

ISOLA: No, I sure haven't.

Just the franticness of trying to put that fire out and the fire department just working the best they can in trying to get all that cleaned up, that's what I saw.

CHUNG: All right, gentlemen, I thank you so much for being with us.

David Isola and Captain Brisley, thank you.

And another much deadlier crash half a world away tops our look at "The World in: 60" tonight. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): A Turkish Airlines flight crashes while landing in heavy fog at an airport in Southeastern Turkey, killing more than 70 people. As many as six reportedly survived.

The rhetoric is now reaching critical mass, as North Korea says it is the Americans who are working hard to bring nuclear war to the Korean Peninsula. North Korea blames the U.S. for spreading false rumors about its nuclear program.

CHUNG: American war planners are heading to the Persian Gulf. The battle staff that would run a military campaign against Iraq is setting up a command center in Qatar.

Four relatives of 9/11 victims are on Iraq on a mission of peace. They are campaigning against the U.S.-led war and will meet with families of Gulf War victims.


CHUNG: And a final story before we head to a break: A federal court today gave the U.S. government a new tool to fight its enemies, even if they are U.S. citizens.

Ruling in the case of Yaser Hamdi, an American captured fighting for the Taliban, the court said the U.S. government can hold Americans in military custody without legal rights, such as the right to an attorney.

We will be right back with the latest on the woman who disappeared when she is eight months pregnant. The clock is ticking.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Trista gets her turn looking for love while millions are watching.


REHN: I feel like the luckiest girl on Earth right now.


ANNOUNCER: But are we now getting reality TV overload?

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.


CHUNG: A tantalizing, but mysterious lead tonight in the case of Laci Peterson, the woman who disappeared on Christmas Eve eight months pregnant.

Police are testing fluid samples, but not revealing what they are, where they came from, or what they might say about Laci Peterson's fate. As the search for the expectant mother enters its third week, we are getting an idea of just how motivated some of the searchers are, as well as some of the methods they're employing.

CNN's Rusty Dornin reports.


JOSEPH MCDONALD, VOLUNTEER: I'll grab them. Give me a minute and I'm heading out.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joseph McDonald doesn't know Laci Peterson. But four days after her disappearance, McDonald, a project manager at a windmill farm, felt compelled to start looking.

MCDONALD: All right, buddy.

DORNIN: So, he saddled up his horse Cody (ph). Searching by horseback is not uncommon here in rural areas of California's Central Valley. It's a good way to cover more territory, especially along the creeks and rivers.

(on camera): At this point, how much time have you spent searching?

MCDONALD: I haven't really kept track of it. I'm just out helping. Every day I can, if I'm not working, I'm out. On the weekends, I'm out, even to make phone calls, get people to help, volunteer, pass out flyers.

Maybe I can get down and walk through there, because that is a lot of stuff.

DORNIN (voice-over): Today, it's along the Tuolumne River near Modesto.

MCDONALD: Yes, that's too steep. No access down there.

DORNIN (on camera): How difficult is it to search in an area like this?

MCDONALD: It just takes a lot of time. They want us to be really thorough and, if needed, get off the horse, crawl through bushes, just go anywhere you can.

DORNIN (voice-over): But sometimes there are fences and places where the horses just won't go.

(on camera): Investigators say they welcome the efforts of volunteers like Joseph and his friends combing these riverbanks. But they say they just don't want them working around the dogs, because it could interfere with their ability to pick up a scent.

(voice-over): There are hundreds of miles of rivers near Modesto. And this search, like so many others, ends in vain.

MCDONALD: There's a lot of volunteers. A lot of people have been coming out. We just want people to constantly help, everybody. Don't give up on them and keep helping.

DORNIN: But before Joseph goes on work, he raises a banner next to a highway, 50 miles from Modesto on the way to San Francisco.

MCDONALD: It will remind them every day they come by not to forget.

DORNIN (on camera): Now, for some reason, this has hit really close to home for you. Do you know why?

MCDONALD: Because she's a human being. She's a person. She's a daughter. She's a mom. She's a wife. I have a family. It just really hits close to home.

DORNIN (voice-over): Too close for comfort.

Rusty Dornin, CNN, Modesto, California.


CHUNG: And joining us now is Donna Raley, who has not only helped with the search, but she knows just what Laci Peterson's family is going through. In 1999, her stepdaughter disappeared in Modesto after allegedly being stalked by an ex-boyfriend. She was never seen again. And no charges were filed in the case, which remains officially open.

Since then, Donna and Susan Levy, Chandra Levy's mother, have founded a group called Wings of Protection to help families of the missing.

Donna, thank you so much for joining us.

Tell me, Donna, I know that you raised your stepdaughter since she was, oh, 9 years old. So, you were really close to her. It's been three years now. When Laci Peterson disappeared and you started hearing these news reports and seeing the news reports, how did you react to it?

DONNA RALEY, WINGS OF PROTECTION: It brought us back, all of our family, to day one. It was as though everything was Dena over again. And it made the holidays very, very difficult for all of us.

CHUNG: Have there been any leads to the disappearance of your daughter?

RALEY: There have been lot of leads phoned into the police department, but, to the best of my knowledge, I don't think they've been thoroughly checked out at this point.

CHUNG: Donna, do you think she's still alive?

RALEY: No, I do not.

CHUNG: I know that you have spoken with the Peterson family and you've tried to help and give them some advice. What have they told you and what have you told them?

RALEY: Well, basically, when we spoke with them, Susan and I were together. And we just tried to let them know that...

CHUNG: That's Susan Levy, right? You mean Susan Levy.

RALEY: Susan Levy and I, yes. We were together.

CHUNG: Chandra's mother.


And we just tried to tell them that -- give them some strength to try to hold on. They have a lot of people who love and support them. This whole community have embraced them. And everybody is trying very hard to find their daughter. It's just -- Laci being missing has been hard for everybody. But I just tried to tell them that all we can do is pray. And we give them a little bit of information about things that we tried to do to accept what was happening and get through it.

And each person, it's different. And what works for me may not you. But we just tried to tell her things that worked for us and things that didn't. And Susan tried to give her a lot of information about Wings and the things that we would like to try to help them with. And they seem very receptive to us.

CHUNG: Really? That's what I was wondering. Could they see clear enough so that they could accept some advice?

RALEY: I don't think, at this time, they can, because, if you could understand, they see us as something that's happened to someone else. Our case is not like theirs. And because Susan and the Levy family has had bad news and because many other families in Wings have had bad news, they really don't want to believe that they're a member of that little group.

They still hold out hope. And we do, too. We pray that Laci is OK. We hope that they aren't a part of us. But we would just like to be there to support them and let them know that we care about them and their families and we want to help. But they're just not sure yet what to do.

CHUNG: I know that you don't believe that the Modesto police did enough to try and find your daughter or stepdaughter. Is it your impression that the Petersons believe that the Modesto police are doing their best in looking for Laci?

RALEY: I think so.

I think the Modesto Police Department are doing an exceptional job looking for Laci. I think that a lot of the reason that this has evolved as it has is because of the three ladies in Yosemite that were killed. And then, when Chandra went missing, that gave a lot of attention to Modesto. And it has brought out how many people are actually missing. And then with Modesto keep popping up with these bad things, I think the police department have geared up to realizing the importance of the early-on investigations.

And maybe that wasn't the case when Dena went missing. But I admire them for what they've done for Laci, for the family.

CHUNG: Well, Donna, we admire you for what you've done to help the cause along.

Donna Raley, thank you so much for being with us.

And a reminder that police are asking anyone with information about Laci Peterson's disappearance to call 209-342-6166 or go online to

ANNOUNCER: Next: chilling footage.


WESTERFIELD: I tend to do what I want to do. And that's not a good thing at times.


ANNOUNCER: The police interrogation of the man sentenced to death for murdering Danielle van Dam.


WESTERFIELD: I want to talk to the lawyer first. I want to talk to the lawyer.


WESTERFIELD: OK? You're asking me to admit to something. And, as far as I'm concerned, I didn't do this.


ANNOUNCER: A side of David Westerfield we never saw -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.


CHUNG: Tonight: rare and chilling insight into the mind of a child killer.

David Westerfield has been sentenced to die for kidnapping and killing 7-year-old Danielle van Dam almost a year ago. He had nothing to say for himself during the trial or the sentencing, sat in the courtroom stone-faced. Last February, Danielle's disappearance from her San Diego home shocked the nation and mobilized hundreds of people to search for her.

But, as CNN investigative correspondent Art Harris reports, a just-released tape of Westerfield's interrogation shows he did nothing to end the anguish of Danielle's family or the nation.


ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While San Diego police searched desperately for missing 7-year-old Danielle van Dam last February, the prime suspect was brought in for questioning. That's neighbor David Westerfield, his head resting on a table at police headquarters. In this videotape, not made public until now, Westerfield says he's gone 48 hours without sleep.

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sleep deprivation can be used as a technique, an interrogation technique, a questioning technique. Whether it was used and why he was up for 48 hours in this particular case is not really sure. But it's something that can be used, because it does lower your defense mechanisms.

HARRIS: We asked retired Washington D.C. detective Mike Brooks to watch the tape with us and explain techniques police use to interrogate suspected killers. The investigators quiz Westerfield about child porn, downloaded from a computer in his home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever had any desire for young children?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None whatsoever?


BROOKS: What is he interested in? Is he interested in young children? Along in the tape here, he talks about older kids. But he talks about older kids as 13-, 14-, 15-year-olds. The bottom line is...

HARRIS (on camera): Not natural.

BROOKS: Yes, that's not natural at all.

HARRIS (voice-over): By now, it had been more than three days since Danielle vanished from her bedroom in the middle of the night, just before Westerfield took off on a weekend drive into the California desert.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to sit here and I'm going to be very frank with you, OK? Like I think I've been pretty frank with you all day.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And my concern is Danielle. And I know in my heart, in being a detective for 12 years, I know you had something to do with her disappearance.

BROOKS: And they're trying to put some things in his mind to make him think about Danielle and maybe get him to confess to them exactly what happened. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, this can't go on any longer, OK? You've got -- your stomach is bothering you. You're under a lot of stress. Things are falling apart around you and...

WESTERFIELD: They have already fallen apart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then help us out. Let's get Danielle back.

WESTERFIELD: As far as I'm concerned, my life is over. The life that I had, the life I was living is over.

BROOKS: He's starting to get down. And sometimes that's also a technique, is to try to bring highs and lows in an interview. And right now, we look like we're going to a low.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, I'm convinced that you did it, but I want to get Danielle. My main concern right now is to get Danielle back to her family. That's the most common, decent thing to do.

HARRIS (on camera): What's the objective here?

BROOKS: The objective here is to get Westerfield to tell them, the investigators, where Danielle's body is and to admit to killing Danielle van Dam.

HARRIS (voice-over): But the next thing Westerfield said was this.

WESTERFIELD: I asked you to get me a lawyer, bring a lawyer in here, bring the DA in, bring somebody in that I can talk to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what? And what?

WESTERFIELD: I want to talk to them. You don't need to know that, right? If I want to talk to a lawyer, I don't need to tell you what I'm going to talk about.

HARRIS: That was the turning point in this interview. By law, police could not continue the questioning. In fact, at trial, the judge kept this videotape out of the evidence, because police failed to read Westerfield his rights before starting to search the desert for Danielle's body. After one cop left the interview room to confer about a lawyer, one more dramatic exchange near the end of the tape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to be left alone?

WESTERFIELD: No, that's OK. If you wanted to leave your gun here for a few minutes, I'd appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. That's silly.

WESTERFIELD: Why is that silly, in your opinion?

BROOKS: I think there's a possibility he could have been thinking about suicide, taking about his demise, and going back to what he was talking about everything being over. And, as we found out later on in the trial, it basically is over for him.

HARRIS (on camera): Westerfield is now on death row.

He said nothing at trial, nothing at his sentencing. This is the only time we've ever seen him say anything about the case. And not once in the 45-minute police interview was there a single expression of concern for Danielle, her disappearance, her whereabouts, her fate.

Art Harris, CNN.


CHUNG: You really have to watch this next videotape and listen to this story. This is a story that we brought you yesterday. Remember the family that claimed Tennessee police shot their dog without provocation? They were stopped for suspicion of robbery.

As late as this evening, the police continued to maintain the dog was shot because the police officer, who thought the dog was a pit bull, believed it was lunging at him. Now officials have released video of the incident.

Watch the right side of your TV screen. The tape shows the dog walking toward a police officer who aims his weapon at the dog. We have obscured the actual shooting.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shot my dog! You shot my dog! Oh, my God!

SMOAK: Why did you shoot him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just shot my dog! You shot my dog, man!


CHUNG: The family, clearly distraught, is now considering legal action. And the reason they were stopped? Listen to this. The dad forgot his wallet on top of the car. Another motorist saw the money flying off the car and reported it as a possible robbery.

When we come back: She was rejected on "The Bachelor." You know that TV show. And now Trista Rehn has got her own show. And this time, the guys are on the line.

We'll meet Trista and ask her the burning question: Why, oh, why?


CHUNG: Well, apparently, the networks don't think so. There are six, count them, six new shows launching this week. And now it's "The Bachelorette"'s turn. Isn't that a dated name, "Bachelorette"? On "The Bachelor," Trista Rehn was rejected on national television. Tonight, she gets her chance to play the heartbreaker, dating on national television 25 men.


REHN: I want to find Mr. Right. I want to find him. I have searched forever and ever. I want it to be right. I want to know that it's right. And I just haven't come across that yet. And I've dreamt about my wedding day for a very long time.


CHUNG: So, will she go from "Bachelorette" to bride?

Trista stopped by the studio just a short while ago and we talked.


CHUNG: Trista, thank you so much for being with us.

REHN: Thank you for having me.

CHUNG: Now, the last time we saw you, you were not very happy. In fact, you were very sad. Let's take a look at this clip.


REHN: It never happens, you know? My life will go on. I'm OK. I'm just sad.


CHUNG: Hey, Trista. Oh, man, what are you crying for? Cut it out.

REHN: Yes, I know.

CHUNG: You weren't taking it seriously, were you?

REHN: Oh, yes, completely.

CHUNG: But this was all for fun. Come on. Hello?

REHN: It was in the beginning. It was in the beginning. But I definitely developed feelings for Alex. It was sad. I got over it. I'm fine now.

CHUNG: Have you seen Alex since then?

REHN: I have a few times, just out on the town and randomly, definitely weren't planned.

CHUNG: Did you talk?

REHN: We did. Uh-huh. We've said some words to each other. (LAUGHTER)

REHN: I don't think I should go any farther than that.

CHUNG: Really?

Now, if he said, oh, I made a terrible mistake, I'd love to go out with you, would you? Oh, really?

REHN: I already know your question.

No. I think that to be a person that he didn't want to be with when he had the chance, I don't think that that would be good to go back to. I would rather have someone want me from the beginning and then develop a relationship from there.

CHUNG: Well, he's toast.

REHN: Yes.


CHUNG: All right. So, now you have an opportunity to do the choosing.

REHN: Yes.

CHUNG: Did you know anything about each of these guys?

REHN: Not really. The first night was the first time I had learned anything about them. I had a little three-ring binder that had their picture, their age, their occupation, and where they were from. But before that, I didn't know anything.

CHUNG: And how would you say you decided that first round of eliminations? How did you -- by looks, by what?

REHN: Well, the first night, it was hard, because we only had hours together. We probably had about five or six hours together. And because there's 25 guys, it's hard to get alone time with each of them. But, yes, physical appearance definitely played a part.

But I tried to not let that make my decisions, because I've definitely had relationships in the past where I necessarily wasn't attracted to them at first, and because of their personality, I got to like them a lot more. So, I went a lot on chemistry. I think that you can tell when you first meet someone if you have a good chemistry together, and also different things, like if they're flexible in moving, if they were looking...

CHUNG: So, you're a physical therapist.

REHN: Yes.


CHUNG: Anybody need physical therapy there?

REHN: They didn't say, but maybe.

CHUNG: OK, moving on.

REHN: There were some professional athletes, so they may.

But, also, if they had the same interests. If they brought up a conversation right off the bat that maybe wasn't something that I was totally interested in, then that was kind of an easy way to decide.

CHUNG: You didn't enter this really looking for a life partner, did you?

REHN: This one, yes.

CHUNG: You didn't?

REHN: The last show, I just did it for fun.

CHUNG: No, get out. You did?

REHN: Yes.

CHUNG: Really?

REHN: Yes.

CHUNG: You're taking this seriously?

REHN: Completely seriously.

CHUNG: Well, it's already been shot. So, it's over. And you know who that guy is and he knows who he is.

REHN: Yes.

CHUNG: Now, is this really the person that you'd like to spend the rest of your life with?

REHN: Well, I can't say whether or not we're engaged. We'll have to wait and see on air. But, yes, I could never have found a better man if I had looked for one myself.


REHN: Yes.

CHUNG: If I were your mother, I might say, no self-respecting daughter of mine is going to go out there and do it this way.

REHN: No. She's totally supportive. And she actually wants them to do a senior version of "The Bachelor."

(LAUGHTER) REHN: She wants to be set up, because she's divorced. And it's really hard, I think, to meet good people. And I had a whole casting department out there looking for me. ABC was basically playing matchmaker. And these guys are all blood-tested and psychologically screened.

CHUNG: So, if they want to do it on their dime, fine.

REHN: Exactly.


CHUNG: Right.

REHN: Why not take advantage?

CHUNG: Oh, gosh. You finished shooting this, what, November?

REHN: November.

CHUNG: Have you been able to see him?

REHN: Yes, a couple times. But they've been very secluded visits, because people recognize me every so often. So, because the secret is a big part of the show, they didn't want that to come out. So our secrets are definitely very private.

CHUNG: I really believe that you and a lot of other people get into this and do it because you want to get into television.

REHN: It wasn't why I did it initially. I know that it might sound like it. I did dance for the Miami Heat. And a lot of people think, oh, well, she was a dancer for the Miami Heat, so she must want to be in the public eye.

That wasn't I why I did it at first. I just thought it would be a lot of fun. I got a free trip to L.A. I got to live a lot of fun people and live in a Malibu mansion. But you know, this round, they knew me. The producers knew me. I really had a great opportunity to meet somebody special. And I figured, why would I pass that up?

CHUNG: Congratulations.

REHN: Thank you so much.

CHUNG: And thanks so much for coming on.

REHN: Of course. Thanks for having me.


CHUNG: "The Bachelorette" isn't alone this week. Joining Trista are "Joe Millionaire," "High School Reunion," "Star Search, "Surreal Life," and "Celebrity Mole."

Is reality TV really the new reality? Well, "TV Guide" senior associate editor Ari Karpel is here to help us to navigate the new reality.

Ari, thank you for being with us.

ARI KARPEL, "TV GUIDE": Thank you, Connie.

CHUNG: Now, in "The Bachelor, it was very successful. It was a man courting 25 women. Now it's a woman courting 25 men. Is it going to have legs? Is it going to make it? Is it going to be a ratings success?

KARPEL: The most successful reality shows take a proven formula and twist it and that's exactly what "The Bachelorette" is doing. "The Bachelor" is certainly a proven formula. And "Bachelorette," they're turning the tables. A woman is in charge. And it's a great -- it's a very bold move by ABC. And I think it's a great opportunity.

CHUNG: Because?

KARPEL: Well, because you're putting a woman in charge. She's the one who's courting 25 men. That's not our traditional way of looking at things. And it's an opportunity. It can actually bring us to a place where we can talk -- it's one reality show that can bring us to talk about issues, gender issues, and whether it's OK for a woman to be in charge, for a woman to make the proposal, as she may do on this show.

CHUNG: And, if not, there obviously is a double standard.

And can you explain to me why I watch these? You have to be my shrink tonight, OK? I don't know why my husband and I are flipping around and then, boom, we get stuck at "Joe Millionaire." And he's putting his necklaces on, the pearl necklaces. And we can't stop watching it.

KARPEL: I think they're addictive in part because they work off of basic stereotypes and sort of our most basic fantasies. In this case, the fantasy is that a beautiful young woman will find her prince and live happily ever after.

On a show like "High School Reunion," it's that the high school nerd 10 years later is going to get the popular girl. And we all can relate to that. So, I think there's something in us we get to live vicariously through them. And yet, at the same time, we can stand sort of above them, away from it, judge them, as we often like to do as well, and say, well, I would never do something as stupid as they're doing.

CHUNG: Yes, right.

KARPEL: Not that you're doing that, Connie.

CHUNG: No, no, of course not.

OK, we've got to go, but I know you believe that "Star Search" and "American Idol" are actually good ones. KARPEL: Yes, because they're actually making celebrities out of people who may deserve to be celebrities, because they're talented. They're not just backstabbing or doing stupid things.

CHUNG: OK, Ari Karpel, thank you so much. Will you come back? We have to talk about this again.

KARPEL: Absolutely.

CHUNG: I need more therapy, you know?

The reality of tonight's "Snapshot" is an actual snapshot that might make you think twice about your home. Watch.


(voice-over): Look at what's left of this apartment building in Brooklyn. Its superintendent suspects vibrations from a nearby jackhammer caused a side of it to collapse. Everyone inside got out in time.

A famous fashion designer says a certain reality TV star could use a reality check when it comes to her wardrobe. According to Hollywood design guru Mr. Blackwell, Anna Nicole Smith was the worst- dressed woman of 2002.

An Arizona pet owner is giving puppy love a new meaning. He built this creative contraption to help his partially paralyzed dog get around.

Over in Germany, the fate of five primates is producing public concern and media outrage. The Berlin Zoo is sending the chimps to China, saying it needs more room for its gorillas and other attractions. But wildlife activists say the zoo simply want to replace the mild-mannered chimps with more outgoing animals.

And it may seem hard to believe, but Elvis Presley would have turned 68 today. Many of his faithful fans gathered outside Graceland to eat cake and sing happy birthday to the King.



CHUNG: Tonight, school bus driver Fred Tindall's passenger of the day is our "Person of the Day"; 16-year-old Travis Cossart was on Tindall's bus yesterday in Orange County, Florida, when Tindall pulled over and passed out. Travis used the bus radio to call for help and then administered first aid, which doctors said may have saved Tindall's life.

We've got both of them with us from Tindall's Orlando hospital room tonight. And one of the best parts of this story is why Travis learned first aid in the first place. We'll get to that in just a moment.

How are you feeling, Fred?

FRED TINDALL, BUS DRIVER: I'm feeling pretty good. Thank you.

CHUNG: Delighted to hear that.

Can you tell us what happened?

TINDALL: I was taking my students to high school yesterday morning. And I was feeling pretty good and then all of a sudden I started feeling faint and I knew I was in trouble. So I got the bus to the side of the road into an emergency lane.

And I locked the brakes up on it and set the emergency signals. And I opened the window and turned the fan on to give me some fresh air. And it wasn't working. So, I opened the door and I suppose I intended to step outside and get some fresh air. But I ended up passing out. And I fell head first down the stairs. And I hit my head on the lower steps and ended up on the pavement on the outside.

CHUNG: Travis, when you saw Fred Tindall there on the ground collapsed, what did you do?

TRAVIS COSSART, HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: I called his dispatcher and had them send an emergency vehicle in my direction. Then I grabbed the first aid kit and started first aid on Fred.

CHUNG: How did you know to do what you did?

COSSART: Well, I'm an Explorer with the Orange County Fire Rescue, which they gave me all of the training to help me in that situation.

CHUNG: Were you nervous? Were you scared?

COSSART: At the moment when it happened, I wasn't thinking of anything. I just went and I had to do what I had to do.

CHUNG: You just wanted to help your friend, right?

COSSART: Yes. That was it.

CHUNG: Travis, I think the best part of this story is that it was Fred Tindall who suggested that you get into that program, right?

COSSART: He would tell me all of his firefighting stories, which inspired me to join the fire department and the Explorer program.

CHUNG: So do you think this is the career that you want to pursue?

COSSART: Definitely.

CHUNG: Fred, you've got to believe that something out there was going on for you to have collapsed and for Travis to be there to help you. And, in the end, you know, had he not been there, it could have been much worse. TINDALL: Yes, that's true.

I'm a retired firefighter from the Orlando Fire Department. And he's been a student on my bus for a couple of years now. And I think I may have been instrumental in him joining the Explorer program. I certainly told him it's a good program and that he would benefit from it. And he has convinced me that he did.

CHUNG: Travis, do you think you're a hero?


CHUNG: I'll bet there is someone who's right next to you who would say, I think you are.

What do you think, Fred?

TINDALL: I'm very grateful to Travis. It doesn't surprise me, though, because I knew he had it in him.

CHUNG: Well, that's just wonderful.

Thank you for both for being with us. We so appreciate it and glad that this is a story that ends so well.

Thank you.

TINDALL: Thank you.

COSSART: Thank you.

CHUNG: Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Princess Diana's lover, James Hewitt.

We'll see you tomorrow.


Crash in Charlotte>

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