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CNN NEWSNIGHT AARON BROWN
Military Personnel Will Be First to Receive Smallpox Vaccines; North Korean Ship Carrying Scuds Released
Aired December 11, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening, again, everyone. Writer Linda Keenan (ph) came across something today that says in just a few words what many Catholics must be feeling these days. We don't think you have to be Catholic, however, to get it. It's about this man, Richard Steve Goldberg, one of the FBI's 10 most wanted fugitives wanted for sexual exploitation of children, six counts of lewd acts, along with child pornography.
Now imagine that someone you trusted without question, a school principal, a leader in the community, maybe even an older relative new Richard Goldberg and knew what he did, what he did to children, and did nothing about it. Maybe that friend or relative or trusted acquaintance even helped him get out of town and supported him after he left. Imagine how you would feel.
Then there's Paul Shanley, who apparently still has enough support from someone that he was able to make $300,000 in bail today. Reverend Shanley, of course, looks very different than Richard Goldberg, but the crimes he's accused of are just as appalling. Ten counts of child rape, six counts of indecent assault and battery.
For Boston Catholics, the people they trusted were their leaders in their church, which first got a complaint about Father Shanley in 1967 and then received countless more after that. They then helped move him on to another church. One in California where no one knew his past.
They were still sending him money into the late 1990s. So it's not hard for us to imagine how that feels, and it's not hard to see why so many Catholics in Boston, especially given this latest batch of documents which shows even more cases of abusive priests, it is not surprising that a leading group of angry Catholics are meeting tonight to decide whether to ask their cardinal, Cardinal Law, to resign.
We'll have the latest on that in the broadcast ahead. We begin "The Whip", however, with the decision about vaccinating against smallpox, a historic decision. Frank Buckley at the White House for us. Frank, a headline, please.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, after much discussion within the Bush administration about who should get the smallpox vaccine, a decision. The president will make the announcement on Friday. Tonight, we've been told that the first people to get it will be members of the U.S. military. BROWN: Frank, thank you. We'll be back to you at the top of the program tonight.
The latest now on that ship found with scud missiles aboard. A story that took a very intriguing turn today. Kris Osborn at the Pentagon with that. Kris, a headline, please.
KRIS OSBORN, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Well, Aaron, Pentagon officials tell CNN the So San is no longer in U.S. custody. Its boarding, they point out, though, sends a message to proliferators.
BROWN: Kris, thank you.
On to the controversy over Republican Senator Trent Lott, the Senate leader who's been speaking out today. Jonathan Karl has been on that from the Hill. Jon, a headline from you.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Senator Lott was speaking out today, after nearly a week of silence, apologizing again. But he's not satisfying his toughest critics, including one prominent senator, who today called on him to resign as majority leader.
BROWN: Jon, thank you.
And to Boston now and that decision facing some Catholics on the fate of their cardinal. Bill Delaney continues to work the Boston angle for us. Bill, a headline from you.
BILL DELANEY, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, the meltdown in the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston continues. Earlier this week, it was priests. And now, just tonight, a group of the faithful. Both calling for the resignation of Bernard Cardinal Law.
BROWN: Thank you, Bill. Back to you and the rest coming up shortly.
Also on the program tonight, some perspective on Senator Lott and just how serious this is for the Republican leadership. We'll be joined by Robert Novak tonight.
And we'll admit, this is probably the story we're looking most forward to. Remembering the last mission to the moon. Thirty years ago today it was Apollo 17. We'll talk with one of the astronauts on board, Captain Gene Cernan (ph) joins us in the hour ahead. So we have much to do.
But we begin with the president's plan to start vaccinating people against a disease that literally has not been seen on earth in more than 20 years. Smallpox was eradicated in 1980 and, since then, has officially existed only in a few freezers and in a few labs around the world. That's the devil we know.
The devil we don't know who is who else might have it. Only that we're pretty certain some very unsavory countries, including possibly Iraq, might, and might be trying to turn it into a weapon. So for much of the year the government has been grappling with the idea of vaccinating troops and healthcare workers and perhaps the entire population.
If the vaccine we're perfectly safe, this would be an easy decision. But it is not, so it has taken a while. We begin tonight at the White House. CNN's Frank Buckley -- Frank.
BUCKLEY: Well, Aaron, a senior administration official tells us tonight that the decision has been made and that the announcement will come on Friday formally. But, as we said a moment ago, we've been told that this will be offered in phases. The first phase will involve the members of the U.S. military. Some 500,000 members of the U.S. military will get inoculated in that first phase.
Following that group, emergency care providers, ER doctors, others who come in contact with anyone infected with smallpox. And again, that's about a half-million people. They will get the vaccination.
Then first responders. And this is a fairly large number. Some seven to10 million paramedics, police officers and other healthcare workers will be given the chance to be immunized. And then at some point the general public would also have the chance to get the vaccine.
The president says it will be voluntary for civilians. Tonight, ABC News broadcast an interview with the president, a portion of that interview, that will be aired on "20/20" later this week, in which the president said that for civilians it should be voluntary, and that the government needs to be responsible to get as much information out there to the public as possible, so that people can make the proper choices.
That's important information, Aaron, because, as you touched on, there are some potential risks involved in the getting the smallpox vaccination. Of the one million people who -- out of a million people who get the vaccination, according to 1960s data, one or two will die. And out of that one million, 15 people will suffer life-threatening applications -- Aaron.
BROWN: Does a vaccine currently exist?
BUCKLEY: Yes, it does. In fact, U.S. officials say that they have enough right now to vaccinate everyone in the U.S.
BROWN: Then on hand at this moment in freezers and refrigerators around the country there are 250-plus million doses of smallpox vaccine?
BUCKLEY: Well, that I don't know. I just know that from some of our reporting earlier, from Elizabeth Cohen, our medical correspondent, and others who have been on this, that the administration officials have said that we have enough for everyone in this country.
BROWN: Well, if we have enough or we better find enough. Because it sounds like the president is going to open that floodgate this week. Frank, thank you. Frank Buckley at the White House tonight.
Now on to Senator Trent Lott and the gaffe. Writer Michael Kinsley (ph) wants to find a gaffe, as a politician getting caught saying what he really believes. So was it that kind of gaffe? Does Trent Lott truly think the United States would have been better off at the dawn of the civil rights era, with a segregationist in the White House? Or, was it, as the senator says, simply a poor, very poor, choice of words?
If so, he's made the same mistake before. Because he said almost exactly the same thing at a campaign rally 22 years ago. So today, the case that this is simply an aberration became harder to make. And the voices of critics, Democrats and Republicans, grew louder. And with that as a backdrop, Senator Lott decided to re-enter the fray.
Once again tonight, CNN's Jonathan Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (voice-over): After nearly a week of silence, Trent Lott decided to publicly explain his comments. Despite his previous statements, he said on a telephone interview with CNN he in no way supports the segregationist platform of Strom Thurmond's 1948 presidential campaign.
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: You know, this was a mistake of the head or the mouth, not of the heart. And that's -- you know, I've asked for forgiveness, and now I want to do the right thing in the future.
KARL: Lott's apology intentionally echoed the words of Jesse Jackson back in 1984, after he was accused of anti-Semitism for referring to New York City as Hymie (ph) town. The phrase was a reminder that Lott is not the first political figure to seek an apology for racially insensitive remarks.
Just last year, it was Democrat Robert Byrd, himself a one-time member of the KKK, who apologized for insensitive comments.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: We can learn that words hurt. Words can hurt a lot. And I will tell you, though, a lot of people I'm sure have forgiven both Jesse Jackson and Robert Byrd for what they said in the past. A lot of people have not forgotten those words.
KARL: Some of Lott's toughest critics think apologizing is not enough.
REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: I think it's difficult and hard to see in this day and age a man who said what he said, even if he makes an apology, can still be in this role.
KARL: Democrat John Kerry, a potential presidential candidate, became the first senator to call for Lott to resign as majority leader. Saying in a written statement, "Trent Lott's statements place a cloud over his leadership, because there can never be an appearance of racism or bigotry in any high position of leadership, particularly in the United States Senate." But no other has called for Lott step down, and most Republicans seemed to accept his apology.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), TENNESSEE: I don't think it is necessary in any way to punish Trent Lott, because he is not a racist. I simply believe that and I know him. So there's no reason to make him a scapegoat for what other people are trying to say about the Republican Party.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: None of Lott's fellow Republicans up here on Capitol Hill seem to want him to resign at majority leader. But also, many of them are very upset with him, not only for those original comments he made about Strom Thurmond, but for what they see as the very clumsy way he has handled this apology -- Aaron.
BROWN: So what's next here? Just hoping it goes away?
KARL: Well, clearly, that's what Trent Lott is hoping for, that's what the Republicans are hoping for. But they're aware that Democrats are going to file this one away. This is one that's going to be used in future campaigns. And also, people are combing through Trent Lott's record for other possible things he said.
So, you know, you never know if this is really fully over. But this is one that certainly is carrying on a lot longer than anybody anticipated when the story first broke.
BROWN: I agree with you, Jon. Jonathan Karl on Capitol Hill tonight -- thank you. We'll have more on this controversy a little later in the program. Robert Novak joins us.
But for now, on to the so-called scud ship. The questions we had last night, at least, are answered. A dozen North Korean stud missiles on a ship intercepted in the Indian Ocean were bound for Yemen. But if that mystery is solved, the question remains, why does Yemen need scud missiles in the first place?
The U.S. government has its doubts about that, but it also needs Yemen in the war against terrorism. So the missiles are going through, making for strange bedfellows yet again. Here's CNN's Kris Osborn.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OSBORN (voice-over): The decision to allow the So San and its cargo of scud missiles to complete its journey to Yemen was made at the highest levels of the U.S. government.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We had assurances that these missiles were for Yemeni defensive purposes. And under no circumstances will they be going anywhere else.
OSBORN: However, a senior official sells CNN the Bush administration made it clear that it did not believe Yemen had any strategic need for such weapons. CNN has learned the U.S. Navy had been conducting secret 24-hour surveillance of the ship for several weeks. Now the U.S. has been assured that this shipment of scud missiles was the last in a group of shipments that date back several years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will not get to any other hands. They are for the Yemeni forces, and Yemen is as careful about it and knows the threat of it as anybody else.
OSBORN: And while U.S. military officials praise Yemeni cooperation in the war on terror, they also express concern over the idea of additional scud missiles being in the region. Speaking in Qatar, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said such interdictions will continue on suspect ships.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE : A vessel was stopped by a multi-national naval force. There were questions about its flag, questions about its cargo, and questions about its destination. The operation was conducted peacefully. No one was injured. And it turns out that the contents of the ship was not -- was manifested on the cargo list.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OSBORN: U.S. officials say the intercepting of this ship highlights the effectiveness of a more aggressive policy to crack down on and track essentially the flow of weapons of mass destruction. Or, in this case, conventional weapons. The scud missiles which could be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction.
That being said, of course, Aaron, a lot of discussion here today among Pentagon officials who don't exactly smile upon the notion of additional scud missiles near or in the Horn of Africa and this part of the world -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, I want to go back to something you said at the very beginning. This was a decision made at the highest levels of the U.S. government. You're going to say what you can say here, but does that mean that the president made this decision or someone pretty close to the president made this decision?
OSBORN: Aaron, very high up. There were phone calls made involving Vice President Dick Cheney, along with Secretary of State Colin Powell. And assurances were given like those which you heard, which is the foreign minister saying that these were not going to be shared with a third party. That these were for defensive purposes only. And, additionally, the point was made that this is something that Yemenis agreed to have this shipment before telling the United States they would no longer receive weapons from North Korea.
BROWN: OK. Kris Osborn, at the Pentagon tonight, thank you very much.
Quickly here to Iraq and the latest on the U.N. inspectors visited six sites today, including a factory for missile and tank parts just north of Baghdad. A factory built in 1999, after inspectors left the country. Iraq says nothing illegal was or is being done there.
The U.S. cleared another hurdle today in the run-up to the possibility of a war with Iraq. More formality than anything else, but a necessity nevertheless. The government of Qatar formally granted its permission for U.S. forces to use a giant desert air base. Here's CNN's Anderson Cooper.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The agreement signed by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Qatar's foreign minister puts into writing was has been fact on the ground for several years. The U.S. will formally be allowed to use the sprawling Aludade (ph) air base. It's 15,000-foot runway, the longest in the Persian Gulf, is capable of handling any aircraft the U.S. has in its arsenal.
RUMSFELD: The agreement that we signed is something that will improve our mutual readiness and military capabilities. It will permit a variety of upgrades, some of which are quality of life upgrades. Others will provide state-of-the-art capabilities for the forces here in the country.
COOPER: Secretary Rumsfeld arrived in Qatar Wednesday in the midst of the U.S. Central Command's war game exercise, code named Internal Look. Thursday, he is scheduled to address U.S. troops taking part in the exercise and will hold a joint press conference with the CENTCOM Commander General Tommy Franks.
With Aludade (ph) formally opened to U.S. aircraft, and CENTCOM's mobile headquarters in place at the al Salia (ph) base, Qatar has become the likely staging point for any potential U.S. military action against Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And, Aaron, as we mentioned, this agreement basically formalizes something that's been a reality on the ground here for several years now. That Qatar has built the base largely for the U.S. It's a $1 billion air base, and they built it at a time they didn't even have an air force -- Aaron.
BROWN: And how is this being received by the people in country, either on their media or on the streets? What do you gather from that?
COOPER: It's interesting. I was actually at Qatar TV earlier today and spoke to the big news reader in this country. And he said, you know, it's really not a big story here. We don't like to get too political. Qatar TV is obviously a state-controlled enterprise. And the Qatar government making the decision not to play this as a big story here. They don't want to risk getting people upset about having a large number of U.S. troops and airplanes on the ground here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Anderson, thank you. Anderson Cooper in Qatar tonight.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll look back at a key moment in America's space program. The last man on the moon, Apollo 17.
Also, the trouble mounts for the Catholic Church and its leaders in Boston. And next, more on the situation Senator Majority Leader Trent Lott finds himself in. Robert Novak joins us after a short break. This is NEWSNIGHT from Atlanta.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More now on Senator Trent Lott and the political heat he's taking. The democratic leadership has been out there the last couple of days pounding the senator. That's politics and that's expected. The senator has also been pounded by some of his conservative allies, which to our ears, at least, takes the story a step beyond the traditional political flap.
I'm not sure our next guest agrees with that. Robert Novak is CROSSFIRE's man on the right, distinguished conservative voice in the country. He joins us tonight from Washington. Mr. Novak, it's good to see you, sir. You said on Sunday that basically this was much ado about nothing. Do you still feel it's much ado about nothing?
ROBERT NOVAK, HOST, CROSSFIRE: Well, the media has made it into something. But it's also gone beyond that, Aaron, for a couple of reasons. You'll notice when the Senate Democratic leader, Tom Daschle, first commented on this, he said that Trent Lott told him he certainly didn't mean anything racist or segregationist. And he took him at his word. And Tom Daschle was a little behind the curve on this.
Two things have happened. First is, that the Congressional Black Caucus got very excited about it. The black vote is so important to the Democratic Party, that this is the tail that wags the Democratic dog. When they bark, to mix a metaphor, the rest of the party listens.
The second factor is that suddenly it was realized by a lot of the strategists and the leaders in the party, such as the national chairman, Terry Mcauliffe, that this is a way to undermine the new majority leader and the new Senate majority in the Senate to get them off balance just as the momentum seems to be going the Republicans' way. So it's gone from much ado about nothing to a little bit of political chicanery.
BROWN: All right. Fair enough. Fair enough and hard to argue with that.
Then how do you explain this. How do you explain the conservative voices, the "Wall Street Journal," "The Weekly Standard," Family Research Council, very tough statement from Family Research Council. How do you explain that if this is just about politics?
NOVAK: Well, these are people, obviously, who don't care for Trent Lott much. I've been critical of Senator Lott as well. I think some of these people would have liked to have seen a change of leadership after this election, but they couldn't find anybody that could get enough votes. I haven't heard this, Aaron, from Republicans. I've heard it from neocons, from people on the social left, people who probably don't like the way that Trent Lott has run the Senate. But I have not heard that from his constituency. When I hear that kind of language coming from, let's say, Chuck Hagel, when I hear it coming from, say, Don Nichols (ph), then I'll say he is in trouble.
BROWN: Well, I don't expect either of us to get to the point where we say he's in trouble. So I just want to go back to this point, Bob. The argument that you're making is that we understand the Democratic critics. Somebody threw them a hanging curveball and they're trying to hit it out of the park.
But on the Republican side or the conservative side, as people who didn't like Trent Lott in the first place, either don't think he's pushed the right policies in the right way or simply don't like the way he's run the Senate. And so the "Journal" and the "New York Post" and others have decided to go after him?
NOVAK: I don't think they cared for him much very much in the first place. And I think they might like to have a change of leadership. But the way the system works, Aaron, is that you have to get a majority of the Republicans votes to be elected leader. And if you do get majority, you are elected leader. That's what he has.
There was a lot of speculation that he was in trouble, that he wouldn't survive this last election, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
BROWN: What do you make, Bob, of the argument that some on the conservative side at least have put forward, that goes, the Republicans spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince African- Americans that they are not the enemy party. And that, in fact, African-Americans would do well to consider the Republican Party as a party of opportunity, and that this sort of thing is a setback in that kind of strategy?
NOVAK: Well, of course, the Republicans have done very, very poorly with the African-American vote. I think that's a tragedy for both the Republicans and the Democrats. They didn't do well in this last campaign. As a matter of fact, when Trent Lott -- Trent Lott usually gets a better part of the black vote than most Republican candidates, ironically.
But I don't believe many Republicans think that there is a great opportunity with the black vote. The place where the next election, future elections are going to be held is the Latino vote, or the Hispanic-American vote, as it's sometimes called. That is what's up for grabs, and whether Republicans have a good chance, I don't think -- this doesn't help them with the blacks. I don't think it really hurts them very much, because they were doing so badly in the first place.
BROWN: Mr. Novak, always enjoy talking to you. Thanks for coming on the program finally.
NOVAK: Thanks for having me, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. Robert Novak in Washington.
A few stories from around the country tonight, beginning with a finding about what was missed ahead of September 11 and why. A joint congressional panel blamed organizational breakdowns and human error for not spotting the clues and putting them together before the attacks on New York and Washington. The committee recommended created a new cabinet-level position to oversee intelligence.
On to a train fire in Tacoma, Washington. Two railroad tank cars caught fire beneath a highway overpass. They were carrying a kind of alcohol that can be used to make things like vinegar and perfume. That is some fire going on in Tacoma. No word on injuries at this point.
And to Berkeley, California, now, and quite an admission from a newly elected official, in this case, the mayor. Tom Bates apologized for dumping 1,000 copies of the university newspaper that had endorsed his opponent the day before the election. He said he was tired on the last day of the campaign and that he deeply regretted the incident. That would be the apology, I guess.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the end of an era in space travel. Up next, the embattled cardinal's troubles continues to mount in Boston. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: To Boston now, and something that's important to keep in mind when talking about the Catholic Church. There's nothing remotely democratic about it. Priests take a vow to take orders from their superiors. Lay people are taught, as the old saying goes, to pray, pay and obey.
So it would be hard to overstate just how dramatic the revolt is among dozens of priests. And many Catholics going on now in Boston calling to their cardinal to resign, on a day when the cardinal is having secret talks about the abuse scandal at the Vatican. On a day when they watched a priest accused of child rape go free on bail.
So we go back to Boston and CNN's Bill Delaney. Bill, good evening to you.
DELANEY: Well, Aaron, as you said, Catholics treating it an awful lot like a democracy here in Boston this week. First a group of priests earlier in the week. Now, just tonight, an important group of the laity, of the faithful, voting 72-2 for the resignation of Cardinal Bernard Law.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DELANEY (voice-over): In a Catholic church built for millennia, stone by stone, on respect for authority, rebellion in a church in a pleasant, affluent Boston suburb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The extraordinary meltdown of moral authority in the Catholic Church in the Archdiocese of Boston.
DELANEY: Catholics of the Voice of the Faithful movement gathered to call for the resignation of Boston Archbishop, Cardinal Bernard Law.
STEVE KRUEGER, VOICE OF THE FAITHFUL: We're called in a very spiritual sense through our baptism to acknowledge the responsibilities that we have to the church complacently on these kind of matters today in this environment is, in effect, complicity to the problem itself.
DELANEY: A problem personified for many in Boston's tumultuous Archdiocese by former priest Paul Shanley, awaiting trial for allegedly raping four young men. Freed the same day Voice of the Faithful voted on $300,000 bail, put up, his lawyer said, by friends and admirers.
The same day, more documents alleging sexual abuse by priests released. Among thousands of new documents just in the past week and a half. With the Cardinal at the Vatican to meet with, among others, cardinals' expert on resignation. A meeting with the Pope expected as soon as Thursday. Perhaps the most stunning document of the week, also alluding to resignation. A letter calling for it, signed by more than 50 priests in the Archdiocese.
FATHER ROBERT BOWERS, ARCHDIOCESE OF BOSTON: He doesn't have what it takes now to be the Archdiocese of Boston. It was acknowledged the Cardinal and others in the administration not just the Cardinal, but others, had among the cases and to protect the church and its image at all costs.
DELANEY: As for costs to the church, the Cardinal also met in Rome with experts at the Holy Sea on the possibility of the Archdiocese declaring bankruptcy to confront an estimated $100 million in claims and counting against it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DELANEY: When all is said and done, though, many observers here in Boston still believe the Cardinal will neither resign nor declare bankruptcy. That both those actions could simply lead to permanent disdain on this Archdiocese and that the Pope, who after all has survived Nazism and being shot, still will fail to see the situation here as so serious that it would call for the Cardinal resign, at least before the Cardinal settles all the claims against this Archdiocese.
But this is a wild and volatile and ever swirling situation here, Aaron, and no one knows what the next few days will hold.
BROWN: Well, only a fool would make predictions. Tell me a little more about the group tonight, Voice of the Faithful? They have been critics, have they not, of the Cardinal for quite some time?
DELANEY: They have bee critics of the Cardinal for several months. This group formed out of thin air earlier in the year. It now claims 25,000 members around the country.
What happened tonight, Aaron, very significant. As critical as they have been of the Archdiocese and are the Cardinal, they held back from actually getting together and calling for the resignation. The latest dump of documents here, revelations of the even deeper extent, the broader extent than anyone ever imagined of alleged sexual abuse covered up by the archdiocese here was the straw that broke the camel's back. That's why they voted tonight.
BROWN: Thank you. Our Boston bureau chief, Bill Delaney tonight.
Two stories from around the globe, beginning with what's becoming familiar, an unsettling picture from South America. Protests in Venezuela. Day ten of a nationwide strike among those who are opposed to the leftist President Hugo Chavez. Organization of American States is trying to find some sort of settlement between the two sides, trying to find consensus on when to hold new elections.
And a setback today for the European space program. An Arian 5 rocket failed on separation after takeoff in French Guyana. Two European satellites fell into the Atlantic. The director of the space program apologized to customers for the failure.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, hard to believe it's been an entire generation since man last walked on the moon. This will make you feel old. It has me today. A look back at the flight of Apollo 17 and meet the mission commander in a few moments. This is NEWSNIGHT from Atlanta.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: That's NEWSNIGHT 30 years later, a look at the last manned mission to the moon. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If you should look up at the moon tonight, consider this: it's been 30 years since man last set foot there. Looking back, the very idea that there hasn't been a moon landing since then is almost as hard for us to imagine now as it must have been 50 years ago to imagine that anyone would ever land on the moon at all.
Thirty years ago today when the lunar module Challenger touched down, the two astronauts on board knew they'd be the last in the a while to make that journey. But the coming decades were expected to bring a permanent space station, a space shuttle as reliable as a Mack truck and eventually more missions to the moon and then mars.
Instead, 30 years later it seems our horizons have shrunk. So for a few moments tonight, we take you back to the days of Challenger and Apollo 17 and a time when we were dazzled by one of our times' most extraordinary achievements.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, Houston, you are go for orbit. Go for orbit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are kind words. Roger. We're go for orbit here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was a spectacular night launch. And we went and the program was over. People seemed to have forgot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They almost were forgetting before we went.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, stand by for (UNINTELLIGIBLE) over. Boy, are we coming in.
ROGER LAUNTIS, FORMER NASA HISTORIAN: Apollo 17 was, and everyone knew it at the time, the last mission to the moon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) got contact. Back push. Stop. OK, Houston, the Challenger has landed.
LAUNTIS: Between 1969 and 1972, we sent six Apollo crews to the moon. Twelve men walked. During that period, it's really kind of a high point of exploration, at least for the modern United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As I step on to the surface (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I'd like to dedicate the first step of Apollo 17 to all those who made it possible.
CAPT. GENE CERNAN, APOLLO 17 COMMANDER: Like I can see the craters and mountains that surrounded it. It was, as I said earlier, it became our own little Camelot. It was a place that I called home for over three days of my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's beautiful. This has got to be one of the most proud moments of my life. I guarantee you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the last mission, we were able to range farther and find more interesting geological features to study than previously.
DR. HARRISON "JACK" SCHMITT, APOLLO 17 LUNAR MODULE PILOT: And as I was moving up towards the edge of this crater, about a 100 meter crater, as geologists want to do I was looking at my feet as much as I was looking out, and I noticed I was stuffing up some orange-looking material. I said, wait a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, hey! There is orange soil. Well, don't move it until I see it.
It's all over.
SCHMITT: I really thought, when he said, I found orange soil, I thought it was time to take him home.
I thought we'd been there too long.
But it turned out a deposit in the rim of the crater, what turned out to be orange (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
Gene and I, I think, better than anybody were able to absorb the magnificence of the location and where we were, and the adventure of exploring the moon while at the same time we were producing new information with the sampling and observations in photography.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SINGING)
CERNAN: We sang and we joked and we talked. I mean, you're in a new environment. We were human beings, not robots. We had a job to do. But we're only going to come this way one time. So we enjoyed it as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, what a nice day! Ah! Funny, there's not a cloud in the sky, except the Earth.
CERNAN: We stood in sunlight on the surface of the moon. Stood in sunlight surrounded by the blackest black you can conceive in your mind. Not darkness. But blackness. And out there, a quarter of a million miles away, three dimensionally, within that infinite blackness, was light, was planet Earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were able to take the only picture that we have of the Earth, that it doesn't have shadows. All the other pictures are crescents of some type. And, with this particular image, we changed our perspective on the Earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'd like to share a piece of this rock with so many of the countries throughout the world. We hope this will be a symbol of what our feelings are, what the feelings of the Apollo program are, and a symbol to mankind that we can live in peace and harmony in the future.
CERNAN: I remember going up the ladder, looking over my shoulder and looking at the footprints, looking at the flag, looking at the Earth back there, knowing it might be -- it might be quite some time before someone picked up and built upon our legacy. That's when I said, Jack, are you ready? he said, Yep, I said, All right, let's get this mother out of here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proceeded, three, two, one. Dissension. We're on our way, Houston.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Thirty years ago. That's the work of NEWSNIGHT producer Sarah Coil tonight
And ahead on NEWSNIGHT we'll talk with Gene Cernan. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There's no wind on the moon. No weather at all. So, after 30 years, the footprints of all the Apollo astronauts are still on the moon and will be forever. At least until the next batch of astronauts pays a return visit. And when they, do they'll find footprints, some debris and the letters TDC carved into the Apollo 17 landing site, the initials of Tracy Cernan carved there by her father Gene Cernen, who joins us now.
It's good to see you, sir. Thanks for being with us.
CERNAN: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Does it seem like 30 years? My goodness, 30 years seems like an awfully long time.
CERNAN: You know, it is a long time. Far longer than I ever dreamed would be possible that we didn't return on the moon. Thinking back, it sometimes -- it seems almost like a dream. Listening to what preceded me here this evening, a little nostalgic.
BROWN: I want to ask a couple questions about back then and then let's talk about the whys and the future a little bit.
Do you know when, when you stepped off Challenger and on the moon, do you have any idea what your pulse rate was?
CERNAN: No, but I expect it was pretty high. That was pretty, a pretty exciting moment. We just came down from about 14 minutes of the most dynamic period a person can live in their life and that was during the lunar descent, people are talking. You can feel the engine, the vibration, the shaking, your partner's talking, the ground's talking. And all of a sudden, you get within about 200 feet where you're committed to a landing, you don't have any choice. You get in to the dust. You touch the surface, you shut the engine down and that, then, turns to be the most quiet moment you can, perhaps, experience in your life.
BROWN: Was there any sense when it ended -- and I'm sure it all went quickly -- a sense of disappointment in that you would never again have a moment like that one?
CERNAN: It -- You know, it personally for me it was. I had an opportunity to go to the moon on Apollo 10. We came close, but didn't land. So I knew what it felt like to look back at the earth from a quarter of a million miles, which is a whole another story of its own.
But I remember specifically -- there's certain things to remember about the mission, other things you'll forget. Climbing up that ladder, I looked over my shoulder, and in our particular cases we landed, in the eastern -- what we called the eastern edge of the moon, the Earth was in the southwestern sky above the mountains that surrounded this valley.
So I didn't have to look up. I could just look over my shoulder and see the Earth and look down at the foot of the ladder. I was already on it, and I saw my footprints and I knew that I had been there. Knew no one could ever take that moment away from me but knew I that was only going to pass that way once, but it -- knowing we the last to leave was a little disappointing at the time. And certainly today, 30 years later it's extremely disappointing. BROWN: Did we -- was Apollo important for what we learned about the moon or for what we learned about ourselves?
CERNAN: You know, you've got to look back to 1961 when president Kennedy challenged this nation to do something most people thought was impossible. We had a grand total of 16 minutes of space flight experience, only Alan Shepard's flight.
It was the terrible '60s, campus unrest, civil strike, involvement in a very unpopular war and America didn't have too much to look up to and be proud of at that time, except for perhaps the space program. And we did what a lot of people didn't think could be done.
You know, we did what we -- we met Kennedy's challenge, we went to the moon, we beat the other guy there. I think the real legacy is not so much what we did or the science we brought back, but why question it and the conditions under which we did it.
A lot of people gave of themselves a commitment, dedication, self-sacrifice, the willingness to succeed after the Apollo 1 fire. I think a lesser people probably would have folded the tent. That's the real legacy of Apollo that we have to impart. Not just the history, but it's hearts and minds of our young people.
BROWN: I suppose, policy not being made this way, but I find it quite sad that there is a huge part of the American population, those 30 and younger, who do not know what it's like to see someone get off a space ship and put their foot down on the moon or another planet, anything like that. The question is...
CERNAN: You know, Aaron, what's interesting about that statement, you're absolutely right, they didn't see it. Although I have a lot of 30-year-olds say I watched you go on the moon. I said, Yes, your dad grabbed you from the back the pajamas and stuck you in front of the television and said some day you'll be able to say you saw it.
The fact is, this 30th anniversary of Apollo 17 is far more than I ever anticipated. There are lots of things going on, certainly, throughout the country and even around the world. And so much of the interest coming from that 30 generation, that 30-year-old generation and their children who want to know, why didn't we go on? Why did we quit? The big question is when are we going back?
BROWN: Well, I think -- you know, I think of, in my life, when they came up with the polio vaccine and when men landed on the moon as the great scientific moments. You were a part of it. It's an honor to talk to you, 30 years is a long time. Thank you, sir, very much.
CERNAN: My pleasure. Thank you.
BROWN: Gene Cernan, on the 30th anniversary of Apollo 17.
Back to the boon after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally tonight, talking with Gene Cernan and revisiting the wonder of the Apollo 17 mission reminded us of a story we saw a while back.
For the first time ever, the U.S. government has led a contract to an entrepreneur permitting his company to embark in a year or two, on a series exploratory missions to the moon. To take photographs at first, to look around robotically and even to deliver a souvenir payload to the moon for you, if you can afford it, $20,000 per gram.
Anyway, the businessman behind the idea believes this marks the beginning of the commercial development of the moon. We suspect he's right, and we suspect we know where it will end as well.
Got that right logo right in the middle. Here's Paula Zahn with a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," we'll have all the latest overnight news plus we'll be talking with J. Lo. Jennifer Lopez is hot with a new movie and a new fiance, Ben Affleck. And she'll tell us why she thinks the third time's a charm. that's at 7:00 a.m. Eastern. Hope you'll join us then -- Aaron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: See you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Good night from all of us.
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