CNN WOLF BLITZER REPORTS
Supreme Court May Be Poised to Overturn State Sodomy Laws
Aired December 2, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: A CNN exclusive. Baghdad owns up to a would-be weapons violation, but is it telling the whole story?
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ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: A lie is still a lie.
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BLITZER: Torture, rape and terror. Is this how Saddam Hussein holds on to power?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The dossier does make for harrowing reading.
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BLITZER: A smoking gun tying al Qaeda to last week's terror attacks in Kenya.
Should the Supreme Court rule on what goes on in the bedroom?
And from the pages of "TIME," pictures of presidents like you've never seen them before.
It's Monday, December 2, 2002. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. What's missing at the missile plant? U.N. weapons inspectors run into a snag in Baghdad. And Iraq makes a surprising admission. We have team coverage this hour. CNN's Nic Robertson has the latest from Baghdad, and CNN's Christiane Amanpour has an exclusive report.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, a high-ranking U.N. official is telling CNN that Iraq confirmed to U.N. weapons inspectors two weeks ago that it did try to procure, to import aluminum tubes. It tried about half a dozen times, according to this official, but Iraq says it failed, it was not successful. It did not manage to get those aluminum tubes.
Furthermore, it is saying that it did not intend those tubes to be used in a nuclear weapons program, that it intended those tubes for its conventional rocket, or conventional missile program. Iraq's saying that it did provide the specifications of these aluminum tubes that it tried but failed to get, and officials saying that if that pans out to be the truth, then those tubes of that particular size would not be able to be used as centrifuges to enrich uranium for any kind of nuclear weapons program.
Iraq, however, by making this admission is saying that it did violate the U.N. sanctions that have been imposed since 1991, which prohibit the import of any kind of military equipment or military activity.
However, the weapons inspectors are waiting for a fuller accounting by December the 8th, and analysts are saying that the weapons inspectors would need to see accurate records of just what kind of tubes Iraq was trying to import. And it would like it see, obviously, from the supplier side, as well, what did Iraq tried to import, before it could make an independent assessment that Iraq was, indeed, not trying to import anything for any nuclear weapons program.
I'm Christiane Amanpour, CNN, in London.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Nic Robertson in Baghdad. Several interesting firsts here today with the U.N. inspection teams. One team going to three alcohol plants on the east side of Baghdad. That was a nuclear inspection team. Two of those alcohol factories have not been visited before by U.N. inspectors until now. The U.N. inspection teams here have only been going to sites visited by U.N. weapons inspectors in the 1990s. That's a first.
The other weapons inspection team here going to a missile component production facility in the center of Baghdad, spending over six hours looking through that facility. That's the longest time they've spent looking at one site. And this wasn't a particularly large site, about half a mile by half a mile square.
Now, the U.N. teams say at that site they found that certain tagged equipment at the site and several monitoring cameras were no longer at the facility. They asked Iraqi officials about that. Those Iraqi officials said that some of the equipment had been damaged in bombing in 1998. That site was hit 18 times by missiles during those brief strikes. And also saying that some of that equipment had been moved on elsewhere.
Back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Nic Robertson in Baghdad and Christiane Amanpour reporting as well. Thanks to both of you.
As Sunday's deadline looms for Iraq to come clean about its weapons programs, the Bush administration is voicing lots of skepticism about the likelihood that Saddam Hussein will, in fact, comply. Let's go live to our White House correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux. She's following that -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Wolf, a lot of skepticism here. Earlier today the president signed the Defense Authorization Act, and if appropriated by Congress it would mean the largest increase in military spending in some 20 years. But the president using this really -- this military, the Pentagon signing as a backdrop to discuss the war on terror, saying there was a lot of progress that was being made with the liberation of the Afghan people, as well as capture of key al Qaeda, but, today, he squarely put the responsibility on Iraq's Saddam Hussein, issuing a stern warning that he has to comply with that December 8 deadline set up by the U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441. It requires that he declares all weapons, chemical, biological, as well as nuclear weapons of mass destruction.
Mr. Bush, again, issuing that warning, saying otherwise he'll face the United States and a global coalition that will disarm him.
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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On or before the 8th of December, Iraq must provide a full and accurate declaration of its weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile programs. That declaration must be credible and complete. Or the Iraqi dictator will demonstrate to the world once again that he has chosen not to change his behavior.
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MALVEAUX: Now, the president also making it very clear that he is skeptical that Iraq is going to comply. Kind of in a one-two punch from the administration today we also heard from Vice President Dick Cheney, who was speaking before leaders of the National Guard in Denver, Colorado, really emphasizing that the end game is near for Saddam Hussein. Now, the question, of course, what happens December 8 when Iraq declares its weapons? If it does not square with U.S. intelligence, then administration officials say they will provide that intelligence to those weapons inspectors and force them to actually show that Saddam Hussein is lying -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne, thanks very much.
In London, meanwhile, the British government, which backs President Bush's hard line against Baghdad, has issued a detailed report portraying a reign of terror in Iraq. Human rights groups are questioning the timing, not the contents, of this report.
We must warn you, some of the pictures you're about to see may be disturbing. CNN's Robin Oakley has our story from London.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.K. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw welcomed in the cameras to preview a later government report of human rights abuses in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. A report that claims acid baths, tongue amputations and the piercing of hands with electric drills a regular torture method in Iraq.
When the report was released, journalists were also shown a horror video. First, there were brutal scenes of the treatment apparently meted out to captives in southern Iraq. The film contained no details or commentary, just a bleak musical soundtrack. The written report insisted that torture, rape and terror were not in Iraq a case of individual policemen or soldiers overstepping their mark, but the systematic program of a government ruling by fear. Even shots in the video of an empty cell left little to the imagination.
Jack Straw said the report was the most detailed account yet of Saddam Hussein's abuses.
JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: It includes intelligence material, firsthand accounts of Iraqi victims of torture and oppression, and reports by non-governmental organizations. And the aim of the report is to remind the world that abuses of the Iraqi regime extend far beyond its pursuit of weapons of mass destruction in violation of its international obligations.
OAKLEY: The emotive film compilation released by the U.K. government contains scenes familiar from many news reports, including those of Kurdish victims of a Saddam gas attack. Human rights organizations saw release of the video at such a sensitive time as more than a coincidence.
RICHARD BUNTING, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: Of course Iraq has an appalling human rights record. There are torture, executions, repression. We all know this. But it has been the case for years, and we have to be wary when we see a government using another government's human rights record in this manner. We only hope it isn't being used for foreign and strategic considerations and, of course, the fear is that it is.
OAKLEY (on camera): Many U.K. politicians share Amnesty's suspicions. With just days to go before the deadline for Saddam Hussein to comply with U.N. demands or face serious consequences, the horror video is just one more weapon in that other war, the battle to swing public opinion behind military action if it comes to it.
Robin Oakley, CNN, London.
BLITZER: An important news from the United States Supreme Court today. Should states have the right to punish homosexuals for having sex? We'll take a close look at why the U.S. Supreme Court has decided to consider that question.
Also, the terror attacks in Kenya. Investigators find out what may be an al Qaeda smoking gun. And a possible claim of responsibility. We'll go live to Mombasa and I'll talk with the Israeli Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
And another cruise ship returns to port with a load full of sick passengers. We'll examine what may be causing the illnesses.
But first, a look at other news making headlines around the world.
The northwest Spanish coast may be headed for a second round of environmental disaster. With hundreds of miles of coastline already blackened, another oil slick from the sunken tanker Prestige is on its way.
A fire aboard a luxury liner in the Pacific Ocean forced 127 passengers to abandon ship. The blaze aboard the Wind Song (ph) began in the engine room. The passengers, most of them Americans, were transferred to another vessel and taken to Tahiti. There are no reports of injuries.
Murder was on the menu in a popular Hong Kong restaurant. Police say a man ate his breakfast, paid his bill, then took out a gun and shot another customer in front of dozens of witnesses. The gunman then walked out as if nothing had happened. The victim was a wealthy businessman, and police are calling the attack a carefully planned execution.
Another butler, another servant to the British royal family has been charged with stealing items from Princess Diana's estate. Harold Brown denies the charges. Similar accusations were leveled against Diana's butler Paul Burrell, but those charges were dropped after Queen Elizabeth intervened.
Seeing sights. Tourists aboard this Berlin bus are looking at more than the Brandenburg Gate. The tour guides are strippers, and as the landmarks slip by, their clothes slip off. Not everyone is clear on the concept. One passenger complained that it's hard to concentrate on what's outside.
And that's our look around the world.
BLITZER: Breaking medical news this hour. Prostate cancer screening: should men undergo the routine test? If they do, does it make a difference. The results of a brand new study coming up on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. We're back in a moment.
BLITZER: Welcome back.
A U.S. official tells CNN the missiles launched at an Israeli commercial airliner in last week's twin Kenya terror attacks have been linked to similar weapons used by al Qaeda. Our senior international correspondent Sheila MacVicar is joining me now live from Mombasa with details -- Sheila.
SHELIA MACVICAR, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this may indeed be the smoking gun that leads investigators to conclude that, in fact, it was al Qaeda that carried out these twin attacks here in Mombasa.
MACVICAR (voice-over): The first hard evidence that al Qaeda is tied to the Mombasa attacks: the serial numbers on the missile launchers found near the airport. The Pentagon says those serial numbers are close in sequence to those in the launcher used in an attempted al Qaeda attack in Saudi Arabia. That suggests to investigators that the Soviet-made missiles came from the same batch and were likely obtained at the same time.
In London, Paul Eadle monitors sites linked to al Qaeda. He has seen very little activity on those sites until now. One message that bears the hallmark of al Qaeda --.
PAUL EADLE, CYBER EXPERT: The statement which purports to be from al Qaeda claims responsibility for the two attacks in Mombasa last week. And it says very directly to the Israelis that as you kill our children, we will kill your children.
MACVICAR: Eadle is careful to warn that the message has not been authenticated.
(on camera): Senior Israeli intelligence sources tell CNN that although they do not yet have any definitive proof, it is now their analysis that the Mombasa attacks were carried out by al Qaeda and that they were planned probably in Pakistan by people very close to Osama bin Laden.
(voice-over): Israeli sources also say they believe the attacks were launched from largely lawless Somalia, Kenya's northern neighbor. And this man, Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, the Israelis say, likely organized the attacks. He is believed to be al Qaeda's chief of operations in Somalia.
But Kenyan police and Israeli intelligence sources acknowledge the investigation on the ground in Kenya is stalled. They found the license plate of the bomber's vehicle in the hotel wreckage but so far, they say, they have been unable to determine who owned the vehicle and who might have sold it to the terrorists.
There is another mystery vehicle: the white four wheel drive seen parked in front of this dirt track near where the surface-to-air missiles were launched. Kenyan police say they have found no trace of that vehicle or its occupants.
Ten sailers taken from this ship moored at Mombasa's old port and held as suspects are still in jail. The police are guarding the boat. But both the Kenyans and Israelis now say they do not believe the sailors were involved in the attacks. No one else is in custody. There are no other suspects.
Five days after the attacks, it seems more and more likely that al Qaeda has once again struck and slipped away.
MACVICAR: Wolf, a pretty depressing picture here in Kenya tonight. Though we are told that investigators were hopeful they will get the breakthrough they need here on the ground that will lead them to the people who directly perpetrated these attacks -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Sheila MacVicar on the scene for us in Kenya tonight. Thanks very much, Sheila, for that good report. Earlier, I discussed the Kenya attacks and a possible link to Osama bin Laden's terror network with the Israeli foreign minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. He joined me from Tel Aviv.
BLITZER: Was this the first time that al Qaeda has taken this kind of terror action directly against Israeli targets?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, it has been cooperating with Hezbollah for some time. It's been trying to penetrate Israel itself for some time. But I have to say this is the first overt direct action against Israel by al Qaeda. For al Qaeda, where Israel is not a footnote exactly, but not the top priority because we're the little Satan, you're the great Satan, the U.S. We're merely an extension of the hated western civilization that they want to annihilate. So this would be the first attack.
But I think the important thing here, aside from the terrible tragedy -- I participated yesterday in the funeral of two 12-year-old and 13-year-old brothers who were bombed in that resort in Mombasa. But in addition to that terrible human suffering, the significance of what happened in Kenya in the skies over Kenya, is that international civil aviation is under great threat. I think we have to understand that and I think we have to act very rapidly to avert that threat.
BLITZER: Well, how -- what can these commercial airliners do? You've been studying this terrorism issue for some three decades. How vulnerable are commercial airliners out there right now?
NETANYAHU: They're highly vulnerable without seating any fear. We have to understand that all our arrangements really date back for protection. All our arrangements date back to the late '60s when the first Israeli -- actually, the first attack and hijackings took place on an Israeli aircraft in the late '60s. Hijacked to Algeria.
From there it spread to the entire world like an epidemic and it took us about 15 years to stop the rash of hijackings and bombings and we did that both by taking action against offending states -- they couldn't land their planes and we gave -- we took sanctions against them. And also we protected the inside envelope over the aircraft. So it's very hard to board a plane, plant a bomb or hijack it.
Our arrangements are not suitable for defending against an external attack like a missile.
BLITZER: Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli foreign minister, saying he doesn't know for sure whether al Qaeda was responsible for that attack, but it sure is beginning to look like it was. We'll continue to follow that story.
But when we come back, a sick cruise ship back in port. And nearly 200 passengers and crew recovering from the latest bout of ocean liner sickness. We'll have the latest on what may be the cause. And is it worth it? New information out on just how many accidents are caused by drivers talking on cell phones. All that and much more coming up on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is an epidemic type thing. Now, I'm not a doctor, but I am a mother. And I wanted to get my family off that ship so bad. I have -- was just up all night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like a bad virus, diarrhea and throwing up all the time.
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BLITZER: The Poseidon Adventure it wasn't but a nasty stomach virus ruined the cruise. Those vacationers had saved up for and looked forward to for so long. CNN international correspondent Susan Candiotti is at the port of Miami. She's monitoring what is going on with the sicknesses aboard these cruisers. What is the latest -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well the latest is this. First of all, over my shoulder you make out the Carnival Cruise ship the Fascination, it is getting ready to sail again within the next hour or two. Now, on Friday, this particular ship, 3,000 people were aboard on a short three-day holiday to the Bahamas. By the time they came back early this morning, about 200 people had become sick to their stomach.
Now this is a very low percentage, but still, in all, for those that became ill, not a pleasant experience and this comes on the heels two of other cruise ships in about the last three weeks attacked by a Norwalk-like virus. And a decision to take those two ships out of service to knock out those virus.
Now, on the Fascination, one family in particular that we spoke with from Jacksonville, Florida, among those who became ill, they became sick with a gastrointestinal illness. But, again, authorities do not know exactly what it was. The CDC, the Centers for Disease Control, is involved now, taking samples and trying to determine what made everyone sick. Carnival Cruise Lines all day long has been working with the CDC to clean this ship. Pictures they provided to us of that work going on, disinfecting the ship with chemicals in hopes of preventing another outbreak when the ship sets sail again. Now the president of Carnival Cruise Lines defended its decision to keep sailing.
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BOB DICKINSON, PRESIDENT OF CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES: I would submit to you that last Friday morning was perfectly sanitized. Somebody comes on board with a virus, any efforts that you have to -- up to that time are for not. So there is no cause and effect here. I think we're all looking for a silver bullet that says you do this and you'll never have the problem again. It is a nationwide, you know, epidemic type virus that comes and goes. And so there is no guarantee.
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CANDIOTTI: Now, by comparison, Disney decided to take its magic out of service for one week to knock out the virus. And now so did Holland America took its ship out of service for ten days after five straight sailings with more than 500 people sick. Now, the Centers for Disease Control says that was Disney's decision to make and it stands by it. And as far as the Fascination is concerned, the CDC says it has no quarrel with its decision to sail and it is sailing with the CDC's blessing.
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DAVID FORNEY, CDC: There is no reason at this time to not even consider going on the next cruise. We will be working with them on a daily basis, monitoring to see if any illness shows up on the next cruise. If so, we'll deal with that when that information comes in.
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CANDIOTTI: The CDC continues to tell us that the Norwalk-like illnesses that you're seeing now is very common, nearly as common as the common cold.
Although does say that the Norwalk virus, there has been more of an outbreak this year, Wolf, compared to last year. Back to you.
BLITZER: Susan Candiotti in Miami. Susan, thanks very much.
The passengers aboard the Fascination suffered the same symptoms as those stricken by the Norwalk virus on the other two cruise ships as we just saw in Susan's report. But what exactly is the Norwalk virus and how does it spread and how can you avoid it? Our medical correspondent Rea Blakey is standing by with answers -- Rea.
REA BLAKEY, MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Wolf.
The chief of the Centers for Disease Control Vessel Sanitation Program says the Norwalk virus is not new to cruise ships. Similar outbreaks on multiple vessels up in the Alaska waters last summer, also reports of significant outbreaks in Europe and in south America, and other parts of the world as well.
The disease, fortunately is self-limiting. It lasts two to five days. The symptoms, which we heard of, develop two to four days after contamination, including that mild nausea, vomiting, diarrhea. Severe illness or hospitalization is rare. It is transmitted person to person generally hand to mouth.
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DR. GARY SIMON, CHIEF INFECTIOUS DISEASE, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIV.: It is a very contagious virus. And that's the usual mode of transmission is some type of exposure of fecal material that doesn't mean it is not just washing hands.
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BLAKEY: However washing your hands is a good recommendation. According to the Food Safety Division of the Food and Drug Administration, thorough and frequent hand washing with warm water and soap is your best protection. Wipe your hands off and keep them away from your mouth. Also it important to properly dispose of sewage. Many of the previous U.S. outbreaks have been linked to seafood consumption, particularly oysters that have been traced to raw sewage dumped overboard by boaters.
And the Norwalk virus and related strains are a leading cause of U.S. food borne illness striking more than 180,000 people each year. You should always thoroughly cook your shellfish and thoroughly wash any raw vegetables to reduce your risk. Now, if you're wondering if you're a member of the target population, chances are you are. Anyone who ingests the virus, who has not had the same or related infection within the past two years is very likely to come down with the symptoms. No treatment available. Those who are sickened, Wolf, that have to be monitored so they don't get dehydrated.
BLITZER: What a way to spend a vacation. Rea Blakey, thank you very much for that useful and practical advice.
And the U.S. Supreme Court agrees to consider if states can punish homosexuals for having sex. We'll have details.
Plus, our own debate on this important issue. Congressman Barney Frank takes on the Reverend Jerry Falwell.
And mountain bikers beware. There is a new study about too much time on the road with adverse effects on your health. We'll have that for you.
And from President Carter to President Bush, the nation's leaders were caught off guard but on camera. We'll talk to the woman behind these photos a little bit later in this program. Stay with us.
BLITZER: Welcome back. I'm Wolf Blitzer. Coming up, the Supreme Court takes up the controversial issue of sodomy. And my next guests very much disagree on how the High Court should rule on this issue. In a moment, Jerry Falwell and Congressman Barney Frank will have a debate.
BLITZER: The Supreme Court also is set to revisit the controversial laws that make it illegal for consenting gay adults to have sex in 13 states. It's been 16 years since the justices last ruled on so-called sodomy laws. Our national correspondent Bob Franken is joining me now live with more on that -- Bob. BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, Will Rogers said something that the Supreme Court normally subscribes to -- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But sometimes the Supreme Court leaves the impression that the Justices believe something is broke.
FRANKEN (voice-over): The Supreme Court begins deliberating an issue with a doctrine known as stare decisis, in plain English, to stay with what's already decided. So by agreeing to hear a challenge to a Texas law, the court raises the expectation it might overturn what it decided in 1986 when it allowed states to ban sodomy.
RUTH HARLOW, LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: The constitutional right to privacy applies to everyone and we're thrilled that the Supreme Court has decided that it's open to revisiting its 1986 decision.
FRANKEN: The facts of the case -- in 1998, two men were fined $200 each after Houston police responding to what turned out to be a false burglary report burst into their residence as the two were having sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sort of Gestapo, but that's all I have to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like my civil rights was violated and I wasn't doing anything wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you will burn in hell, buddy.
FRANKEN: Texas is one of 24 states that makes sodomy illegal, one of 13, which specifically bans homosexual sodomy, which supporters say a state has every right to do.
KENNETH CONNOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Our government has legitimate interest in helping to preserve not only public health but public morals as well. And the law is one means it uses of impacting behaviors.
FRANKEN: The justices, of course, could do nothing, allowing the Texas law to stand. Or they could invalidate it because it specifically targets gays or they could ignore the stare decisis principle and overturn their own 1986 ruling.
FRANKEN: While it's been 16 years since then and a national consensus is another important factor that influences Supreme Court decisions. Attitudes towards gays and private sexual conduct for that matter have changed a lot since then, Wolf, and the justices will have to decide whether they want to make a change.
BLITZER: All right, Bob Franken, thank very much for that good report.
Joining me now to talk a little more about this important issue from Boston, the democratic Congressman, Barney Frank of Massachusetts and from Lynchburg, Virginia, the Reverend Jerry Falwell.
Thanks to both of you for joining us. Reverend Falwell, why should the government care what two adults happen to do within the private confines of their bedroom?
REV. JERRY FALWELL, CHANCELLOR, LIBERTY UNIVERISTY: Well, first of all, I think we both agree, we would all three agree that the law enforcement has not invaded bedrooms. This was a most unusual situation. And most of us would agree that bedroom invasion is not only not being practiced, it's impractical.
I think the whole thing is symbolic. We are a nation built upon the Judeo-Christian ethic in which both adultery, that is immoral behavior between adults of the opposite sex and sodomy and sexual activity between persons of the same sex both are -- I'm a Christian. I'm coming from a Christian perspective, both are forbidden in the Old and New Testaments. And for that reason, symbolically, America has always said to its young people, this is misbehavior. So I hope the Supreme Court leaves it as it is even though we all know it will not be enforced.
BLITZER: What about that, Congressman Frank?
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, it's just untrue. I'm stunned. I mean they did invade their bedroom. By the way, in the Bower versus Hardware case, the 1986 case and here, these are not symbolic cases. These were two human beings who were arrested because the cops broke into their bedroom. By the way, under American law, if nobody had been prosecuted you couldn't have a case. You can't bring purely symbolic cases, given the American constitutional doctrine.
FALWELL: Barney, what I was saying was they didn't break in...
FRANK: Excuse me, Reverend Falwell; please do not interrupt me. The fact is that they did break in. You just said opposite from the truth. You said we could all agree that they don't invade bedrooms. This was a bedroom invasion. These two men were in their own bedroom. The cops broke in, and they were prosecuted. And this is an appeal of a criminal case.
And as for your approaching this from a Christian perspective, I will defend your First Amendment right to approach it from any perspective you want, but you don't have the right to have the cops enforce your perspective.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Reverend Falwell.
FALWELL: Well, I won't interrupt the good Congressman, but the fact is they broke in the bedroom because they thought they were on a burglary invasion.
FRANK: So why didn't they walk away?
FALWELL: They coincidentally found them in a perverted sex act. And the fact is that while no one -- I don't want anybody put in jail for adultery or for sodomy. But I do want the children of America and the children's children of America to know that this country was built on biblical principles, immorality, whether it's between heterosexuals or homosexuals -- and all homosexual behavior is forbidden in scripture. It should be looked at as a taboo.
I hope that America will not lower the standard God has blessed America and proverbs 14:34, the Old Testament, Barney, living by God's principles promotes a nation to greatness, violating those principles brings a nation to shame. When someone believes the gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is born again. God can deliver him from immoral perversion...
BLITZER: But let me -- I want Congressman Frank to respond and then I got a question for you, Reverend Falwell. Go ahead, Congressman.
FRANK: First of all, I'm glad to have in this context, Reverend Falwell telling us that God is blessing America because a while ago he announced that God was very angry at America and that was part of the reason for September 11...
FALWELL: Well, that -- both are true.
FRANK: ... precisely this sort of thing. But fact is that he is entitled to believe whatever he wants to believe. He's not entitled to have people be criminally prosecuted for it. He keeps trying to ignore this fact. These people were criminally prosecuted. If he wants to tell people it's wrong, that's his right to do that. But he said well, they broke into the bedroom, but they coincidentally found it. Why didn't they coincidentally get the hell out of there? What made them, in fact, arrest these people?
And again, it was also the case with Bowers and Hardware. And by the way, there is a great inconsistency here. He said it should be for both heterosexuals and homosexuals, but it isn't. This is a law that clearly discriminates against gay people. And I have to say that this is a test of the intellectual integrity of the conservative movement. People who talk about restricted the role of government, about respecting the right of privacy, if in fact, they are in favor of allowing police, when they get into your bedroom for whatever reason, to arrest you for truly consensual sex between two adults, then let's stop all the hypocrisy about limiting government and respecting the rights to privacy.
BLITZER: All right, what about that? Reverend Falwell, what about the whole issue of separating church and state? It's one thing for the church to oppose these kinds of laws, restrictions, but it's another thing for the federal government or states to be doing it.
FALWELL: Well, the fact is I do not believe in separation of church and state. There's not a word of it in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution or the original documents. But on the second point, I think this government also -- and our government and most governments -- do not favor the taking of human life or stealing of money or lots of laws. All of those are biblical principles and thank God the government puts them into effect and tries to keep civility the rule of the land. Now, I don't want to -- I don't want to ever see Barney go to jail because he practices homosexual acts. But at the same time, I think he's a terrible role model for the children of America and there are not many places in America where he could be elected except Massachusetts or maybe one or two other places. And I hope that America never is willing to accept, you know, when we...
BLITZER: All right.
FALWELL: ... we saw what happened to Bill Clinton, his impeachment. I think that that is the only just way to deal with that publicly and thank God the Supreme Court is going hear it. I hope that they there are five members of the court who will do the right thing for the children yet to be born in this country.
BLITZER: Congressman Frank, we're almost out of time, but I want you to have the last word since Reverend Falwell...
FRANK: All right, Falwell....
BLITZER: But let me pose this question to you. As you give us your response, you know the makeup of these nine justices, what do you believe, in addition to what you want to say to the Reverend Falwell, what do you believe these justices will decide?
FRANK: Oh, I think it's up in the air. It was 5-4 last time. And one of the five who voted in the majority, who outlawed it still, Justice Powell, later said he regretted that. And if you listen to what Clarence Thomas and John Scalia and others talk about when they talk about governing government, when you look at the way Kennedy and O'Connor voted on allowing a woman the right to, under the Constitution, to have an abortion, this seems to me this is a lesser privacy right. So I think it's up in the air because there were these right wing pressures, but in actual honesty, they ought to bring them out.
The only thing I can say to Reverend Falwell is once again, he's wrong when he said only in Massachusetts or one other place -- there have been openly gay elected...
FALWELL: Probably six or eight elected in the history of America.
FRANK: Well, why are you keeping score, Reverend Falwell? Is that in the Bible too? Or do you interrupt when you disagree?
FALWELL: Well, you're wrong.
FRANK: The fact is -- Reverend Falwell, please -- the fact is that you said one or two places, Arizona, Wisconsin. I was just at a conference where there were about 15 or 16 states represented where people were able to be elected because not everyone is as bigoted as you are and does not say that because you disagree religiously with the way they carry out their intimate associations, they shouldn't hold office. Fortunately, that is a diminished few. And again, we're not talking about whether or not you approve or disapprove. We are talking about, contrary to the facts that you tried to allege -- of people in their own bedroom being arrested, being sentenced, being convicted and the notion in America that this should happen; that the cops should do this to you is outrageous.
BLITZER: All right.
FALWELL: Barney, I don't dislike you. As a matter of fact, I pray for you. But you and Bill Clinton and the likes, heterosexual, homosexual, who practice the violation of moral behavior; you're a terrible, terrible example...
FRANK: Well, I think, Reverend Falwell, you're hatefulness...
FALWELL: ... to the kids of this country and I'm sorry that you're in the place that you're in.
FRANK: Your hatefulness is also terribly immoral in my judgment. And when you said...
FALWELL: I don't hate you. I just think that you're being a pervert.
FRANK: No, you are hateful, Reverend Falwell and...
FALWELL: Not at all.
FRANK: ... when you talked about justifying or explaining September 11 because you disagree with people's sexual practices, that was about the worst example of...
FALWELL: I think the secularization of this country is a bad thing. And I do think that God rules in at affairs of men as did Benjamin Franklin.
FRANK: And he -- and that's why September 11 happened, as you said, because of that. I think that's...
FALWELL: No, no, no, no. I said a sleeping church also -- if our churches had been praying for America and standing by biblical holiness in their lifestyles, perhaps God would have stepped in and prevented it. And I thank God that because they're singing "God Bless America" in the ballpark and the Congress now -- I don't know if you joined them that night, but...
FRANK: I did join them, Reverend Falwell. But, again -- but you've been back and forth on this. You -- and I thought retracted that, now you're again affirming that because you...
FALWELL: I'm affirming that God rules in the affairs of men...
FRANK: Oh, please stop interrupting.
FALWELL: ... and I do believe with all my heart, Barney...
FRANK: Stop filibustering, Reverend Falwell.
FALWELL: ... that God is angry with your kind of moral behavior.
FRANK: And therefore, according to your nonsensical bigotry, God punished America, God killed innocent -- oh, not God.
FALWELL: No, no, no, not God.
FRANK: Except God allowed innocent people to be killed.
FALWELL: The terrorists did it, but God allows things to happen and that's why we ask...
FALWELL: ... God to put his hands around us and protect us. That's why every night our children and grandchildren...
BLITZER: All right, Reverend Falwell...
FALWELL: ... God's protection over our family.
BLITZER: All right, Reverend Falwell, I've let this go on a little bit longer than I planned. But go ahead, Congressman Frank.
FRANK: Well, except I -- let me respond very clear. Reverend Falwell, having said it, took it back, now he's saying it again, that God, according to him, the God he worships allowed innocent people to be murdered because he disapproves of some people's sex practices. That's about as bad an example of civil discourse as I can imagine.
FALWELL: I think God disapproves of immoral sex behavior and I think the scriptures...
FRANK: And allows innocent people to be killed because of it?
FRANK: And allows innocent people...
FALWELL: Look at what God did...
FRANK: ... does he allow innocent people to be killed because of it? Does he allow innocent people to be killed because of it?
FALWELL: Read the story of Solomon and Mirah (ph), Barney, when you get home in the Old Testament and see what God did...
FRANK: So your facts are saying that September 11 was -- you one retract...
FALWELL: I'm saying that God cannot be... (CROSSTALK)
FALWELL: ... or a nation so it -- that shall we also reap. And we must not take God...
FRANK: And therefore, innocent people will die. And then, innocent people...
FALWELL: I didn't say innocent people will die. That's in God's hands. But I'm saying that you and I are responsible...
FRANK: No, innocent died on September 11.
FALWELL: ... and we're responsible for the next generation for our morality and may God deliver you from your...
BLITZER: All right, gentlemen, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there, an important issue obviously, a very passionate debate unfolding. Congressman Barney Frank, the Reverend Jerry Falwell, we'll continue this debate on another occasion. We'll watch what those nine justices of the U.S. Supreme Court decide to do in the coming weeks and months. Thanks again for joining us.
FALWELL: Thank you.
And here's your chance to weigh in on this important story -- Should the U.S. Supreme Court allow states to prosecute so-called sodomy laws? We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Vote at my Web page, CNN.com/Wolf. While you're there, I'd love to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column, CNN.com/Wolf.
Breaking medical news out this hour -- a concern for all middle aged men. Is getting screened for prostate cancer really worth it? Stay with us.
BLITZER: There's news just in about the second leading cancer killer among men in the United States. Our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is at the CNN Center in Atlanta with details on a new government report on prostate cancer screenings.
Elizabeth, tell us what's going on.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right, Wolf. The results, I'm sure, will be surprising to many people. What this government task force says is that there may be no reason to screen for prostate cancer. The screening does not appear to save lives. Again, this may be kind of surprising. After all, we have all seen Rudy Giuliani, Norman Schwarzkopf, Michael Milton, all sorts of high profile men who have prostate cancer and who have said, "Hey, let's do something to try to prevent and treat this disease." Well, what the task force found is that prostate cancer is so slow growing, you might be better off not knowing about it because if doctors do find it and they treat it, it can cause impotence and incontinence, as well as other problems, whereas if they didn't find it, you might be able to live for years or even decades with it and die at a ripe old age of something else. That's why some doctors say you often don't die of prostate cancer; you die with it --Wolf.
BLITZER: So Elizabeth, now I'm totally confused. I'm one of those middle-aged men who gets screened every year. Should I continue to have the test or not have the test?
COHEN: What you really need to do is talk to your doctor. The two screening tools are digital rectal exam and a PSA blood test. Some doctors would still say that men ought to have them, especially if you're African-American, which puts you at a higher at risk for prostate cancer, or if you have men in your immediate family who have prostate cancer. And -- but the thing is, you need to talk to your doctor and think, what am I going to do if they do find it? What are the ramifications? Do I want to treat it? Do I not want to treat it? You need to think beyond the screening and think what happens if they do find something --Wolf.
BLITZER: Now, I know how all those women who are getting conflicting information about the mammograms feel. Now, we're getting conflicting information about these prostate screening tests. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks very much...
COHEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: ... for that report. We're going to continue to monitor that medical story as well.
But when we come back, from behind closed doors, each of America's last six presidents has been caught off guard on camera. We'll talk to the woman who captured the nation's leaders in some of their most candid moments. Stay with us.
BLITZER: For more than 20 years, Diana Walker's job was photographing the president for "Time" magazine both in public and in private. And that's the name of her new book, which gathers together dozens of the best pictures, spanning three decades of the presidency. Earlier I talked with Diana Walker about her book.
BLITZER (on camera): Diana, these are remarkable pictures in this new book. I've been obviously watching you up-close-and- personal, covering the White House myself for a few of those years you were there. Let's talk about this first picture of the former president Bill Clinton. Tell us what's happening in this picture.
DIANA WALKER, AUTHOR, "PUBLIC AND PRIVATE": President Bush had just been sworn in and after the swearing in, the president -- President Clinton went out to Andrews Air Force Base for a rally with lots of people who worked in his administration. And he had said good-bye. And he was walking out, heading towards the airplane to take him to New York, the ex-president. And it was raining and it was cold.
BLITZER: It was a miserable day.
WALKER: It was a miserable day, but I...
BLITZER: And he looks miserable in this picture.
WALKER: He does. But I think it's a pretty interesting picture of the end of the presidency.
BLITZER: Because he loved every day at the White House. Even the bad days, he used to say, were good days, as you well remember.
WALKER: Absolutely. Right.
BLITZER: We got another picture I want to show our viewers. This one. This was last interview that Walter Cronkite had with President Reagan before he stepped down as the CBS News evening anchor.
WALKER: Right. And you know when I take pictures, I can see but I can't hear. So I have absolutely no idea what the joke was. But I've asked almost everybody in that picture and nobody can remember. So I think they're keeping it from me, Wolf.
BLITZER: They were -- there was a good time -- they had a good time. Obviously, you had to have, over the 20 years you covered these presidents, great access to get these pictures. What's the key for an up-and-coming young photographer who may be watching?
WALKER: Well, work for a good news organization that has a good reputation.
BLITZER: Like "Time" magazine.
WALKER: Like "Time" magazine. And you know do your job. And look and don't listen.
BLITZER: One hundred thirty-five pictures in this new book, "Public and Private: 20 Years Photographing The Presidency, " a great work. We're continuing to watch your work in "Time" magazine and we'll do that for many years to come.
WALKER: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Diana Walker, thanks very much.
BLITZER: And we'll be back with the results of our web question in just a moment. Stay with us.
BLITZER: Now, here's how you're weighing in on our "Web Question of The Day." Remember earlier we asked -- should the U.S. Supreme Court allow states to prosecute so-called sodomy laws? Twenty-seven percent of you say yes, 73 percent of you say no. You can find the exact vote tally and continue to vote, by the way, on our Web page, CNN.com/Wolf. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.
That's all the time we have today, but please join me again tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern as well as noon Eastern for "SHOWDOWN IRAQ." Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.
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