|
CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Augusta National Defends Men Only Policy
Aired November 12, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.
Well, whether putting is your passion or you don't know a thing, the difference between a nine iron or a wood, you've probably heard of the controversy surrounding Augusta National's men only policy. And, today, the chairman of that club speaks out. We're going to tell you what he said and what it could mean for women.
Plus, defiance in Iraq. Does Iraqi President Saddam Hussein have a death wish? With his parliament rejecting the U.N.'s resolution, is the U.S. heading into war?
And get ready to flash through the latest from J. Lo's new romance to the newest Oscar buzz. That's all today on TALKBACK LIVE.
And time now to meet or guests.
Making up our panel today syndicated columnist and author of "Skipping Towards Gomorrah," Dan Savage.
Hi, Dan.
DAN SAVAGE, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Hi.
NEVILLE: And Sue Ellicott...
Hello, Sue.
SUE ELLICOTT, NPR CONTRIBUTOR: Hello.
NEVILLE: ... a contributor to National Public Radio.
Founder of worldnetdaily.com, Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson.
Hello, Reverend.
THE REV. JESSE LEE PETERSON, WORLDNETDAILY.COM FOUNDER: Hey, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Nice to see you.
PETERSON: Thank you. too.
NEVILLE: And Becky Norton Dunlop of the Heritage Foundation.
Hello, Becky. BECKY NORTON DUNLOP, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Oh, hi. Great to be here.
NEVILLE: I'm glad you're here as well.
OK. First up, today, outspoken Augusta National Chairman Hootie Johnson is leaving absolutely no wiggle room, saying women are not wanted as members there, but Martha Burk of the National Council of Women's Organizations is not backing down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOOTIE JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN, AUGUSTA NATIONAL GOLF CLUB: Our membership is single gender, just as many other organizations and clubs all across America. These would include junior leagues, sororities, fraternities, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and countless others. And we all have a moral and legal right to organize our clubs the way we wish.
A national public opinion poll has shown that more than 70 percent of Americans support the club and our right to decide our own policies. In fact, even more women than men feel this campaign to distracts from the issues that women are truly concerned about. Our support shows that this attack is way out of step with mainstream America.
MARTHA BURK, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS: Why is it all right in the 21st Century to discriminate against women, to defend it, and for the CEOs of America's largest corporations to belong to a club that excludes half their customers?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK, Becky. I'll start with you on this one. Should women be allowed in?
DUNLOP: Absolutely not. Mr. Johnson has it exactly right. The club is a private organization. They're entitled to the constitutional protections that allow them to decide who is going to be their member.
Now Martha Burk is a smart political pol. She has picked on an issue that she knows that will excite her constituents, and that's exactly what she wants to do.
NEVILLE: Dan, what do you think?
SAVAGE: Well, I think a golf course is more than just a golf course.
The real issue here is that a lot of business deals get decided and deals get cut in a lot of that networking goes on on golf courses, and to keep women off of golf courses and not allow them to be members of this club is really to discriminate against women who are rising to the upper ranks of American businesses. And just as the golf courses has a right to decide who is -- who its members are going to be, people have art to protest, and private organizations can be held to public account. So I don't think anything that the women's group is doing is wrong.
NEVILLE: Sue Ellicott, what do you think?
ELLICOTT: I think it illustrates how kind of one man's morals are another man's poison really.
And, for me, it's an issue of corporate ethics in America, that, you know, perhaps one can argue that a private club is a private club. Certainly, it's accurate to say that a private club has no legal obligation to open its doors to men and women. But I think it shows corporate America in a very bad light.
This is big business. These sports are televised. The Masters is a huge thing in American culture, not just among golf players, all sports fans. And if corporate America had any guts, they would pull out and take a stand. CBS would not televise it. They would demand that they shift to a different place that has equal opportunity membership.
And one of the backers, who himself is a member, Sanford Weill, the head of Citicorp, should pull his sponsorship.
NEVILLE: Well, Hootie already blew off Citigroup, IBM, and Coca- Cola. So, as of now, the Masters 2003 will have no commercials, no sponsors -- no TV sponsors.
ELLICOTT: They have not also...
DUNLOP: Well, I think it's also true that Sandy Weill could actually resign from the club in protest, if he wanted to. I understand he's spoken out against it.
But, right now, when a majority of club members have made their decision that this is the way they want to operate the club, I think that we should not be judgmental, and Martha Burk has a right to defend her position and certainly in America is free to do so.
But there are many organizations in New York, in the Northeast, elsewhere in the country that are women only, and they also have a right to have the members that they choose.
SAVAGE: But those women only clubs are not excluding -- are, basically, like another board room. That's what a golf course at that level is with those sorts of corporate memberships. It's another board room, and to keep women out is to discriminate against women in business.
That's why it's wrong. No matter what the majority members of the club have decided, their decision is incorrect, and it should be protested, and it will be protested.
DUNLOP: Well, it will be protested... (CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: OK. Let me let...
DUNLOP: ... but to say it is wrong is incorrect.
NEVILLE: Let me get Reverend Peterson in there.
Go ahead.
PETERSON: I say absolutely no. Do not allow these women to come in. In our country, we have a group of wimpy, whining, man-hater women who all they want to do is to destroy everything that is manly, for lack of a better word, and I am proud that the club is finally standing up, and it's time that men stood up in this country anyway, because these women -- women like the National Women's Organizations who hate men will not stop until we stand up and say no more, and the club is doing the right thing.
NEVILLE: OK. Now, Reverend, let me ask you this, though. And, of course, they didn't admit the first black member until 1990. How would you feel if they had continued that policy and, as of this day, 2002, that they would still say no to African-American members? How would you feel about that?
PETERSON: Well -- well, first, you can't compare the two. There's no simulation at all. Secondly...
SAVAGE: Yes, there is a similarity.
PETERSON: ... if it's a private club...
SAVAGE: Discrimination is discrimination.
ELLICOTT: Well...
PETERSON: Hold on. Let me finish. Hold on. Hold on. The black man is speaking. Hold on, man.
Secondly, if it's a private club, they have the right to allow anyone that they want, and so, if they decide that they don't want black people to come in and they're paying out of their own pockets, they have the right to do it, as I do if I don't want...
NEVILLE: And would you put up a fight?
PETERSON: I'm sorry?
NEVILLE: Would you put up a fight if that were the case?
PETERSON: No. I don't want to go to anybody's house that doesn't want me there. No way.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, let's go to New York. Mary Ann (ph) is patiently standing by on the phone.
Go ahead, Mary Ann (ph).
CALLER: How are you?
NEVILLE: Hi.
CALLER: I just absolutely agree that it should -- it's a private club. They're entitled to make their own rules, and, instead of women fighting about it, they should just go make their own club.
PETERSON: That's right.
SAVAGE: I think everyone is neglecting the really salient point, that this is a board room, that these are corporate executives who play golf and network...
PETERSON: And you're not understanding that it's a private club.
SAVAGE: ... and to exclude women is to discriminate against women in business. It's not just a matter of...
DUNLOP: No, no. Listen, are you going to argue that...
SAVAGE: It's not just a tree house with some boys in it.
DUNLOP: Well, are you going you going to argue that men's gyms should be open to women just because corporate executives happen to work out there at the same time? I mean, let's be realistic.
NEVILLE: I know, but seriously...
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: ... all sorts of different entities.
DUNLOP: We have to look for opportunity to work together.
NEVILLE: But now, Becky -- but, Becky -- but, Becky, does Dan have at least a minute point? I mean, a lot of deals are made on the golf course.
DUNLOP: Sure. It is a correct...
(CROSSTALK)
DUNLOP: ... point. It is a correct point, but that does not mean...
ELLICOTT: I think it...
DUNLOP: ... it should be opened up if the membership chooses that it should not be. We should look for other opportunities...
SAVAGE: But if it's -- if they're not going...
DUNLOP: ... to make our case. SAVAGE: If they're not going to be fair, then people should protest because women in business are being discriminated against based on this club's policy.
DUNLOP: Well, you're making different points here. Of course, women have a right to protest, and Martha will have her people out there. It will raise a lot of money for her organization. But let's...
SAVAGE: And it will right a wrong.
DUNLOP: ... keep our eye focused on what is right and legal in our country.
NEVILLE: OK. Let me get...
SAVAGE: It will raise money for her organization.
NEVILLE: Glenda (ph) -- she's a lady. What do you say, Glenda (ph).
ELLICOTT: I just think...
AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think this is another example of keeping people apart in the society for reasons of gender, race, whatever. All we're doing is promoting classism.
PETERSON: Arthel, down in Atlanta, Georgia -- down in Atlanta, Georgia, Morehouse College is a black university, all male university, and Spelman is an all female university. Will they go after those private schools as well?
DUNLOP: Excellent question, Jesse.
NEVILLE: Well, that's what Hootie said. Hootie Johnson said the same thing.
Listen, we have to take a break right now. But I have a bunch of people here in the audience who want to speak out on this, as well as -- I think Jane (ph) is standing by on the phone.
I'll get you after the break.
The question remains: Should the well-manicured lawns of Augusta National be allowed to remain a man's world?
We want to know what you think. Give us a call or e-mail us at talkback@cnn.com.
TALKBACK LIVE will be back in a moment.
(BEGIN E-MAIL)
EDNA IN FLORIDA: I Think That The Woman Should Stop Trying To Get Into Augusta. If They Want An All Female Club, Then They Should Start One. CARLOS: It Is Ridiculous. This Is 2002, And Issues Like This Still Arise. What's Next? Can They Legally Bar Blacks Or Latinos And Still Try To Convey That Golf And Sports Are About Sportsmanship And Fairness?
(END E-MAIL)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE (voice-over): Hootie's teed off, but Martha's still swinging.
BURK: This is a group of CEOs that are keeping out women. He's saying this. He's saying, "We've always discriminated. We like discriminating. We're going to continue."
NEVILLE: Does the Augusta National Golf Club have the right to pick and choose its members?
Jump into the fray when TALKBACK LIVE returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN E-MAIL)
KIM IN ONTARIO, CANADA: Leave It Alone, Ladies. Augusta Has Every Right To Leave The Policy Of Men Only. They Are Not Funded By The Government, And, Therefore, They Are A Private Business.
REESE IN ILLINOIS: For Crying Out Loud, Why Would Any Self- Respecting Intelligent Woman Want To Surround Herself With A No-Class, Chauvinistic Bunch Of Neanderthals?
(END E-MAIL)
NEVILLE: All right, Reese in Illinois. Thank you for that e- mail.
And welcome back, everybody, to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Hootie Johnson is coming out swinging, defending Augusta National's 69-year-old policy barring female members. He says they're not bigots, just a private club.
And, Brian (ph), you say what?
BRIAN (ph): Well, I think it's less of a question of whether or not women are actually admitted into the golf club or not, but rather their perception that Chairman Johnson doesn't want to get maneuvered into doing anything.
I know -- I've never been down to Augusta before, but, from what I understand, the folks down in Augusta, their golf club -- they kind of do what the folks down in Augusta want to do.
And I think one of the ironies might be, if some of this dies down and if we let it fall, that they might actually let women in in a couple years, if it looks like they're not being maneuvered into it.
NEVILLE: Interesting.
DUNLOP: Arthel, I think Bruce has an excellent point there.
ELLICOTT: Arthel, it's important...
SAVAGE: That's not the strategy...
NEVILLE: OK. One at a time. I'm going to go ahead and give Becky the mic right now.
DUNLOP: Arthel, I think that's an excellent point that was just made by your guest there, and I do think that people recognize that change is coming, but people don't like to be pushed into change, particularly in an offensive way.
I think we'll see a change in this club membership down the road a ways, and Martha Burk may be able to take credit for having played a role in that, but there -- still, it comes back to there's no reason to impose someone else's views on a private club.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Sue.
PETERSON: Well, I'd like to respond to...
ELLICOTT: Arthel, there's no thing...
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Sue.
ELLICOTT: Sorry. There's one thing that I don't really kind of understand here, and I think it's fair enough if a club wants to maintain a certain type of membership, in the same way that there are all girl schools or, you know, all men's rowing clubs, but I don't quite understand why the...
NEVILLE: OK. Sue Ellicott, I'm going to interrupt you because I have to toss to Martin Savidge who has some breaking news for us -- Martin.
(INTERRUPTED FOR CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. We have just reported breaking news from Al Jazeera television in Qatar, audiotapes with the voice of -- alleged voice of Osama bin Laden.
And, Panel, I'm want to talk to you about this right now. If, in fact -- Reverend Peterson, I want you to answer this first. If, in fact, Osama bin Laden is alive, how does this affect, do you think, public opinion regarding war against Iraq? PETERSON: I think that the American people are already supporting the president, and I think now the number will rise.
I want to say, first, that I am one of those American people who believe that we should first get out of the U.N. We don't need the United Nations. We need to get out and get them out of our country. We are a powerful country. We can go after our enemy without the support of the U.N.
And this guy, bin Laden, needs to be dealt with. We need to get rid of him and anyone that supports the attack on America -- this type of attack on America.
NEVILLE: OK. So, one, do you believe Osama bin Laden is alive?
PETERSON: I think so. I believe that he is. We don't have any real evidence that he's dead, and, until we get real evidence that he's dead, we should assume that he's alive and go after him until we can prove he's dead.
NEVILLE: OK. And then, secondly, then, if, in fact you are suggesting that the U.S. goes after bin Laden, what do you think about going after bin Laden and Saddam Hussein at the same time?
PETERSON: Sounds good to me. We should go after bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and anybody else, Arthel, that is attacking America or supporting anyone who is attacking us.
The president, the government has a responsibility to protect the American citizens, and it's time to do it. No more playing around with it. It is time to take care of business before more American citizens are killed or destroyed.
NEVILLE: So, Dan, do you agree with a dual war, if you will?
SAVAGE: I hate to agree with the reverend, but I do agree with the reverend.
There is much unfinished business in Afghanistan, clearly, and anyone who's been paying attention to the news coming out of Afghanistan -- we are going to lose the peace, if we don't make an investment in Afghanistan, and we are betraying the women of Afghanistan, as "The Wall Street Journal" has reported.
However, I'm one of those rare lefties who supports the war in Iraq or going to war in Iraq or regime change in Iraq, whatever we want to call it. I just hope that we don't lose sight of the real goal, which is to rid the world of Islamic fascism, and we should start with Osama bin Laden.
And I think we -- you know, we're a large and powerful country, and we can fight a war in Afghanistan or secure peace in Afghanistan and fight a war in Iraq at the same time, and I think we have really no choice but to do so.
PETERSON: One quick comment, Arthel. NEVILLE: OK. Becky, I see you nodding.
ELLICOTT: I disagree with both of them.
PETERSON: We have to --we have to realize...
DUNLOP: Well, Arthel, since you've given me the floor here...
PETERSON: ... these people are -- these people are -- let me just make a quick one.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Reverend.
PETERSON: These people are evil. We are dealing with evil people, and, if you don't deal with evil in the proper way, it will come back and destroy you, and we can't take that risk.
NEVILLE: OK.
ELLICOTT: Well, I'm amazed to find someone who believes that all the stuff that he's being given -- fed by a Republican administration that's dead set on going to war, and I'm very glad to be able to disagree with the two previous guests.
First of all, I think that the U.N. is incredibly important. Yes, the America is -- the United States is an enormously -- the most powerful country in the world, certainly militarily, and it needs to be kept in check. So the United...
SAVAGE: Can I interject that I disagree with the reverend...
DUNLOP: Well, now, listen, let me, if I can, jump in for a moment.
ELLICOTT: And we don't need to go to war with Iraq right now.
DUNLOP: Sue has made some...
PETERSON: That's crazy.
DUNLOP: Sue has made some very strong points, but I think she needs to be reminded, as the American people need to be reminded, that there was a unanimous resolution in the Congress of the United States, as well as in the U.N., that we should tackle these evils of terrorism, and I think that that is very...
ELLICOTT: Absolutely, but what...
DUNLOP: ... important that we do that.
ELLICOTT: We're looking at two different things here.
DUNLOP: This exactly is the kind of issues that American women...
ELLICOTT: Attacking terrorism is very important... DUNLOP: ... ought to be concerned about.
ELLICOTT: ... and a preemptive strike is something completely different.
DUNLOP: This is what American women want to be...
NEVILLE: Becky -- Becky, I'm want to know why -- hang on for me. I want to know why you think this is what American women should be concerned about. I have to take a break. So hold on for -- hold on to that thought for me.
DUNLOP: All right. Glad to do so.
NEVILLE: And, in the meantime, where does the public stand on invading Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein from power? We're going to take the pulse of America when we come back.
Don't go anywhere. TALKBALK LIVE continues in a moment.
(BEGIN E-MAIL)
KEVIN IN MICHIGAN: What Exactly Is Iraq Thinking? Are They Thumbing Their Nose At The Rest Of The World And Already Prepared For War?
BOB IN NORTH CAROLINA: The Iraqi Parliament Is Nothing More Than A Rubber Stamp And Anyone Who Believes Otherwise Must Live On The Moon.
(END E-MAIL)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
We are talking about Iraq, whether or not you think the U.S. should invade Iraq or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, now you changed the question.
NEVILLE: Oh, you want to talk about Osama bin Laden?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
NEVILLE: Go right ahead, sir. Do you think Osama bin Laden is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based on that message, I think it's a very timely message as we escalate. And it seems that he may be a alive. And if not in person, the attitude is still alive. And that's very crucial to us.
NEVILLE: We're talking about -- we just heard some audio tapes of Osama bin Laden aired on al Jazeera television in Qatar, and you, sir, are saying that those tapes may not necessarily be authentic, just your opinion. But even if not, even if Osama bin Laden is dead, you believe his spirit and his quest remains in place?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By many people.
NEVILLE: Quest to -- well, we won't go there. Listen, lady here in the back, stand up for me. You say what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm an educator in New York, in Ithaca, New York, and I spend a great deal of time working with students and talking to them about conflict resolution, why they should not act before they have all the information. So I'm -- this is a plea to our president and people who support him. Please, do not invade Iraq unless we are 1,000 percent sure that that is what we need to do. And we must be role models for our children.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you very much.
PETERSON: You know, the one thing that we are 1,000 percent sure about, that is we were attacked, Iraq supported the people who attacked us. We are dealing with evil people. We have not resolved this issue, and until we resolve this issue, where we can be comfortable again, I think that we should go for it.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNLOP: Reverend Peterson's point is excellent, and I think the reason that we can have reliance on the fact that this is evil and that we need to act with respect to Iraq is the fact that not only is the Congress of the United States Republicans and Democrats who have had security briefings supporting this action, but also Tony Blair, who is a strong supporter of Bill Clinton. In other words, we have people from both parties and from both conservative and liberal perspectives saying that Saddam Hussein is engaged in the oppression of his people, he engaged in supporting terrorism around the world and he must be stopped and removed from power.
SAVAGE: It is important, however, to emphasize that we have no proof. And by those -- of Saddam Hussein's involvement with al Qaeda. And if those were the standards by which we were going to invade countries in the Middle East, the very first country we should invade is Saudi Arabia, which is the Berlin of Islamic fascism. Supported terrorists -- 15 of the 18 terrorists are from Saudi Arabia.
NEVILLE: OK. I'd like to ask the reverend a question here. Sir, the Bush administration has confirmed that Iraq has ordered nerve gas antidote, viatrapine (ph), from the Turkish government. The Turkish government, of course, is saying there has not been any sales, at least not that they're aware of. What do you think Saddam Hussein -- why do you think he'd need this nerve gas antidote?
PETERSON: Because he's planning to use biological weapons on our people and so he's, at this point, trying to protect his people, his soldiers and possible in people in his country. DUNLOP: And our people and other free people around the world, Reverend Peterson. Remember, he's not just aiming his hatred at the U.S. now.
SAVAGE: You know, I am pro invading Iraq. I'm a lefty who is pro the liberation of Iraq. I'm not pro the sort of Gulf War-style buildup of propaganda and rhetoric from the right in the United States. I'm pro taking out Saddam Hussein.
We helped to install him, we supported him through the Iran-Iraq war. We helped build his chemical weapons capability. I think the United States has a responsibility to go in to Iraq and remove that tyrant from power because we helped put him there. And to build a democracy in Iraq.
But I don't think we should overstate the case. Saddam Hussein, it's been ten years since the Gulf War -- 12 years since the Gulf War. Saddam Hussein has not attacked another country. The only people he's attacking are his own people.
NEVILLE: That's a big deal, Dan, don't you think?
SAVAGE: If that's the standard by which we invade countries, we have a whole lot of countries to invade. I think what we should be saying is we helped create this tyrant. We helped him stay in power. We armed him. This part of the world is hurting because of our support for tyrants and dictatorships.
NEVILLE: And your point is, Dan?
SAVAGE: And we're going to remove this tyrant from power.
DUNLOP: Dan, he has attacked other people.
SAVAGE: Twelve years ago, yes.
DUNLOP: Other than his own country.
SAVAGE: I just said, in the last 12 years, he's only attacked his own people.
NEVILLE: OK. Excuse me for a moment. Before we get a break, I want to share with everyone the results of a CNN0-"USA Today" Gallup poll asking if people are in favor of the U.S. invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Right now, 59 percent say, yes, they are in favor. Just as recent as October, last month, 54 percent, still close. September, 57 percent. Just down a little bit, not much from June, 61 percent.
So there you have it. Those are the results. And listen, we have to take a break right now. But from questions of did the butler do it to a homosexual sex scandal, the British tabloids are filled with dirt on the royal throne.
And now, Prince Charles is stepping into the fray. We're going to talk about that and tell you all about it after the break. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: What's been the effect on the family?
SALLY JESSY RAPHAEL, TALK SHOW HOST: It's been pretty hard. The grandson came home and said, you know, is nonny (ph) not well? People gossip a lot. I will not be a victim of either bullying or of gossip. My kids are getting calls from relatives saying how come you didn't inform us. It's, it's really been very, very hurtful to my family. Terribly hurtful to my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: And that was talk show host Sally Jessy Raphael on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. She said the National Enquirer liabled her when it reported she was rushed to a mental ward. She's planning to sue. And later this hour, you can weigh in on our question of the day: Are stories in those tabloid newspapers journalism or junk?
In the meantime, a royal sex scandal rocking Buckingham Palace has Prince Charles making an unprecedented move. He has ordered an internal inquiry to investigate, among other things, allegations a male servant was raped by a male aide and that the prince tried to cover it up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIR MICHAEL PEAT, PRINCE CHARLES' PRIVATE SECRETARY: It will cover four primary points. First of all, was there any improper cover-up of rape allegations in this office in 1996? Secondly, was there anything improper or amiss in the conduct of the prince of Wales' household with respect to the cessation of the Paul Burrell trial?
Thirdly, have official gifts been sold? And fourthly, have any members of staff in the prince of Wales' office taken gifts, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), et cetera, from suppliers or from whom so ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Sue Ellicott, I'd like to hear from you on this one first. Will the probe tarnish the crown?
ELLICOTT: Well, isn't it already pretty darn tarnished? I'm surprised we can see any sparkle coming out of it after what's happened the last few years. But I do find this sort of rather depressing. It seems to me that Americans should finally have realized the shenanigans that go on behind the scenes in the British palaces, which basically are nothing but secretive private clubs, are subject to all the sordid human instincts that happen on soap operas. I don't even know why we care about this.
NEVILLE: Well there's an interesting question.
DUNLOP: Why do we care about it? Prince Charles has absolutely no credibility anymore with any of the American people. I mean, he's tarnished the crown's reputation. His mother should be mortified and ask him to step away from even being...
(CROSSTALK)
ELLICOTT: Absolutely. In the end, who cares? I'm much more worried why Americans are so paranoid about Saddam Hussein and not more worried about how the Koreans have an advanced nuclear capacity.
DUNLOP: Well Sue, you make a good point, except this is a talk show and the host has chosen this subject and I think we ought to stick to the subject. Prince Charles is an embarrassment to the British people. He should just step out of public life. When he has so tarnished his own reputation, how can one believe -- he has no control over his household.
SAVAGE: I think it's an embarrassment to CNN to shift from a talk about Iraq -- and North Korea might be a good subject to talk about and Afghanistan and the war on terrorism and Osama bin Laden -- to speculating about intrigue at the palace. And then at the same time, to sneer at the tabloids for going after Sally Jessy Raphael, when we make our own sort of trashy segues here on CNN, is a little hypocritical.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNLOP: Clearly, Iraq is a higher level discussion than who should be in the club in Augusta, Georgia, too. But I think this program has a right to pick its topics and I'm certainly happy to discuss what they've asked me to come on and discuss.
SAVAGE: As I am discussing them. I'm just making a larger point about what we're choosing to discuss and why. But I'm not deviating.
PETERSON: I believe that it's not a real important issue to the American people, because we have enough homosexual raping going on in our own country to deal with. Look at the Catholic Church, for example. We're trying to clean up that mess up now. So I think we need to focus on our people and let them work that out.
NEVILLE: OK. We're going to...
DUNLOP: That's true, but the prince is an embarrassment.
PETERSON: Yeah, OK.
ELLICOTT: And I think more to the point is that people seem to have been surprised, which no one else can quite figure out in Britain, that there is a kind of so-called gay Mafia that runs the man servant (ph) and butler and behind-the-scenes jobs at the palaces. What it does show is how the British press is incredibly unsophisticated. It seems to find it somehow titillating that it can be discussing clandestine homosexuality at the palace.
NEVILLE: All right, Sue.
ELLICOTT: And there's such a war of tabloid newspapers that it's become a huge story over there.
NEVILLE: Thank you, Sue. Last word coming up.
Driving and the sexes, a new study may add some fuel to all those bad jokes we've heard about men, women and how we drive. And protecting your brain cells. See why popping a cork could save your sanity when TALKBACK LIVE returns.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. It's time now for our mind-bending flash round.
First up, a new study says drinking up to three glasses of wine a day can keep the mind sharp. The researchers in Denmark say they're not sure what compounds in the wine reduces the risk of dementia. Will you drink more wine -- Dan.
SAVAGE: Well, they say that more study is needed. And I'm happy to offer myself as a research subject. So yes, I will drink more wine.
NEVILLE: Reverend Peterson.
PETERSON: No, I don't drink. And whenever I do drink wine at dinner, it make me dizzy. So, I say no.
NEVILLE: Becky.
DUNLOP: Well, this seems to be one of those cases where you can get scientists to say just about anything and demand more research, which means more study. The good book says moderation in all things and I think I'll just leave it at that.
NEVILLE: Sue.
ELLICOTT: I just think if you drink three glasses of wine, you tell anybody your mind is sharp. You have no clue.
NEVILLE: All right. Next up, who drives better, men or women? According to a British study, women are more likely to have an accident in a parking lot or hit a stationery car. Men are more likely to hit an animal or have a head-on collision. So, is it a toss-up -- Dan.
SAVAGE: I would rather have a woman hit a stationery object than be in a car or be a pedestrian that's hit by a man. So I'll take the female drivers myself.
NEVILLE: Reverend Peterson.
PETERSON: Most women are more emotional than men and they tend to react under stress. So I would say that men do drive better than women.
NEVILLE: Becky.
DUNLOP: Well, I must say, I'll dispute that. But certainly Reverend Peterson entitled to his opinion. I do think that this points up (ph) that the English people should not read so many tabloid stories and they should focus more on individual responsibility.
NEVILLE: Sue.
ELLICOTT: I just think they shouldn't read tabloids while their driving.
|
