CNN Europe CNN Asia
On CNN TV Transcripts Headline News CNN International About CNN.com Preferences
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
SERVICES
 
 
 
SEARCH
Web CNN.com
powered by Yahoo!
TRANSCRIPTS
Return to Transcripts main page

CNN CROSSFIRE

Can John Lee Malvo Get A Fair Trial?

Aired November 11, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: Is it time to wake up, or shake up the Democratic Party?

REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Change is resonating with my colleagues, and for that matter, Democrats across the country.

ANNOUNCER: Will they do it Harold Ford's way, or Nancy Pelosi? Al Gore's way? Robert Reich's way? Or John Kerry's?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My gut tells me positive things.

ANNOUNCER: Leaks in the sniper case. Did the 17-year-old confess? If so, can he get a fair trial?

Plus, CROSSFIRE's bad manners.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no idea what you're talking about.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: You have no idea what you're talking about.

ANNOUNCER: Can Miss Manners make us any kinder or gentler?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE, from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. It is Veterans' Day. The Marine Corps is celebrating its 226 birthday, and the Democratic Party is under a siege. A trifecta like that demands special headgear.

Tonight, getting the Democratic Party's future out of the trash can. Folks, it won't be as hard as you think. We'll get lots of help from the White House. Speaking of help, Miss Manners has agreed to give us some pointers on being more polite and considerate hosts. Now, there is a lost cause.

But first, here comes one of our favorite causes, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Iraq's parliament, if you can call it that, has started debating whether to comply with the new U.N. resolution on weapons inspections. The White House dismisses the debate as irrelevant. President Bush used the Veterans' Day wreath laying at the Tomb of the Unknowns to remind Iraq there will be only one outcome to its debate.

Iraq will fully disarm for the U.S. will lead a world coalition and disarm them.

I would like to congratulate the president for his success in rallying the United Nations to his side. I would also like to remind him who suggested it in the first place. Not his hard-line advisers, but the Democrats in Congress. It is nice to know the president recognizes and follows good, sound advice when he hears it.

CARLSON: James, it is nice to see you. You look ridiculous tonight.

CARVILLE: Any man who would wear a trash can over his head is not worried about looking ridiculous. Not high on my list...

CARLSON: You know, by that low standard, I think it is an improvement.

CARVILLE: That's why we are on CROSSFIRE. Miss Manners will try to straighten us out.

CARLSON: Good luck.

Members of Congress return to Washington tomorrow for the opening of a lame duck session of Congress. The official agenda has two items; homeland security and the budget, but the real agenda has just one: gossiping about the Democratic Party's dismal future.

House minority leader-in-waiting Nancy Pelosi say she plans to represent the -- quote -- broad spectrum of the Democratic Party, from liberal to vegan, all the way to Barbra Streisand. Most observers, however, believe Pelosi will stay firmly in the Streisand camp.

Tennessee's Harold Ford, for one, thinks that is bad news for his party. Ford, the youngest Democrat in Congress, is challenging Pelosi in Thursday's secret vote. It is a brave mission, but it is a doomed one. Congresswoman Pelosi will win. Congressman Ford and the Democratic Party itself will lose, and loyal viewers of CROSSFIRE will find themselves in for yet another two years of amusing Democratic Party melt downs.

CARVILLE: Is this like the first time that you ever had a race for a party...

CARLSON: No, but it is the first one when the choices are this clear. Harold Ford is the future, he is one of my favorite Democrats, smart guy. And Nancy Pelosi, delightful person, but really from the '70s. I mean, seriously.

CARVILLE: What you to mean from the '70s?

CARLSON: You know what I mean.

CARVILLE: She's a very bright woman.

CARLSON: She's very bright. She was terrific in 1977.

CARVILLE: What do you mean? She's a wonderful person. By the way, she looks pretty good to me. I'll tell you that.

There is good news for all of you rich people who are counting on those delayed tax cuts ought to kick in later this decade. Don't worry, they're coming.

Soon to be Senate majority leader Trent Lott says Republicans are not only going to make President Bush's massive tax cut permanent, they want to cut even more taxes, and put in a prescription drug benefit for Medicare, and, for good measure, balance the budget.

It is amazing the Republicans pick up a few seats in Congress, and you can hardly call it a mandate, and suddenly they think they can ignore all the laws of mathematics, economics, and politics. Just like Newt Gingrich in 1996, Trent Lott and company are about to massive overreach and fall flat on their faces, and we'll be helping...

CARLSON: I sense a new -- for 2004, running against tax cuts. It has worked great for your party before. Keep doing it, I love it. .

CARVILLE: We are going to run on the right kind of tax cuts.

CARLSON: The right kind.

CARVILLE: Tax cuts, right now for people, that work. Not tax cuts eight years down the road.

CARLSON: You just tried this, I think, in the last cycle.

CARVILLE: We didn't. That was our problem.

CARLSON: Keep fine tuning the disaster. We'll be watching.

In news you couldn't possibly make up tonight, Al Gore has returned to public life, this time as a disembodied cartoon head.

The former vice president debuted on Fox's animated show "Futurama" last night. On the show, Mr. Gore's animated head, accompanied by his real and not very animated voice travels to a global warming conference where he's introduced as -- quote -- "the inventor of the environment," and the first emperor of the moon.

The right wing conspiracy could not have said it better, and that is not all. Later this month, Mr. Gore will also host "Saturday Night Live," where he'll make fun of the way he is in real life. It is all pretty amusing, if a little sad, but beneath the comedy, there is a terrifying message for Democrats. All this humiliation could not be an accident. Al Gore must be running for president again, hooray.

CARVILLE: I thought that -- women in politics really offended Republicans. You know what really offends Republicans? A sense of humor.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: I love Al Gore. I've been laughing at him long before you did.

CARVILLE: If you took the American people and their problems as seriously as you all take yourselves, it would be a hell of a country right now.

CARLSON: I have been laughing at your party for many years. I have got a great sense of humor.

CARVILLE: I think that Al Gore has a better sense of humor than the entire Republican Party.

CARLSON: OK.

CARVILLE: In case you were swept away by the Republican landslide -- well, thank you -- this week, there is some late breaking election news that is actually good for the Democrats. Minnesota senator designate Dean Barkley today decided to remain an independent, which means Tom Daschle and the Democrats will remain in control of the U.S. Senate for at least the start of a lame duck session in two weeks.

That's really good news. That's better that be nothing, I guess. OK. Arizona has elected a Democratic governor. In fact, Janet Napolitano is the first Democrat to win a governor's race since 1982. Her Republican opponent, Nate Salmon, waited until last night to concede the election. He kept saying he wanted every vote to be counted. They were, he lost.

Down in my home state of Louisiana, outstanding Senator Mary Landrieu chances of winning a second term in a December 7 runoff are looking better and better. The GOP opponent, Susie Terrell, can't even get the endorsement of Louisiana's Republican governor, Mike Foster, and brought (ph) Terrell's Republican opponent, John Cooksey in a freefall election is endorsing her, he is refusing to give her any assistance, as he shouldn't.

Last Tuesday night may not have been the greatest day in the Democratic Party's history, but paraphrasing Mark Twain, reports of our death are an exaggeration.

CARLSON: I have got to apologize, James, when I said that Fritz Mondale is the future of your party. It is really Dean Barkley, the independent who is now the senator, apparently, is going to be on your side. Owned a carwash, I think maybe still does, that is his claim to fame.

CARVILLE: The future -- the future of the Republican Party is its past. Taking itself -- its pontificating, self-important self seriously and not having a sense of humor and not taking the problems of the American people very seriously, that is going to be the downfall. CARLSON: Clinton is gone, the is not pontificating now.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: They are the greatest pontificators that ever lived.

CARLSON: Having failed to engage the voters on questions of war, peace, and economic recovery, strategists at the Democratic Party have decided to take a stand on a new more important issue, snack food.

Democrats in New York are sponsoring legislation that would outlaw the sale of unhealthy food in school vending machines. Criminalizing soda, candy, and potato chips, explained Democrat Christine Quinn of the city council, is fundamentally a moral issue -- quote -- "a matter of right and wrong." No word yet on how the powerful Chips Ahoy lobby will respond to the threat, although lobbyists for Zagnut were said to be crafting a response.

In Washington, Democratic strategists seem pleased with their new tack. Said one, -- quote -- "It is true that we have nothing to say about Saddam Hussein, but we do have a tough new position on Doritos."

Talk about humorless, outlawing snack food? Come on.

CARVILLE: Would you be against having cigarette vending machines in high school?

CARLSON: Well, I'm not talking about cigarettes, I am talking about Doritos.

CARVILLE: I'm asking you, what is your position on cigarette vending machines in high schools?

CARLSON: I'm against them.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You're not a free choice person, why can't they have them?

CARLSON: I don't think Cigarettes are the same as Zagnut bars, and that is why your party has no sense of humor.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: They are just saying you shouldn't be having them at the school.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Last week was pretty rough for the left side of this table. No question I was depressed by the outcome of last week's elections.

I thought things would even get worse on Saturday when my beloved LSU Tigers were trailing Kentucky as the clock ticked down to zero. The Kentucky players couldn't wait, but as they were dousing the coach with ice water and starting their victory celebration along the sidelines, my beloved Tigers were still playing on the field, and what a play it was. A 75-yard deflected pass ended up in an LSU touchdown, and the final play of the game. Final score, Louisiana State University 33, Kentucky 30. Let that be a lesson to all you Democrats out there. It ain't over until it's over, and it ain't over yet.

CARLSON: I must say, when I watch football, I don't necessarily see the political implications of it, but I appreciate that.

CARVILLE: I just wanted to show it. It was just so much fun. It was just an excuse. Don't read any more into it than that.

CARLSON: Amen.

CARVILLE: OK. Next up -- outstanding Election Day, it is time for an overhaul of the Democratic Party. Bill Clinton's latest secretary Robert Reich will step into the CROSSFIRE to tell us whether the party should move left, right, or center -- or just move. Later out of all of Washington's pundits, only one had the clearest predictions on the eve of the elections, and has won the prestigious "Washington Post" Crystal Ball Award, and that far-sighted political seer is a regular host at our humble CROSSFIRE table. Find out who in our quote of the day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Despite the Republican gloat-a-thon, a close look at the election return shows not much good news for Democrats. In fact, we got our asses kicked. The country is evenly split; a few thousand votes here or there and Congress could change hands again. So how could a Democratic party attract these voter?

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE is former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, who didn't quite manage to get himself elected governor of Massachusetts this year.

ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY: But that didn't stop me.

CARLSON: That's right.

REICH: That guarantees me an invitation to CROSSFIRE, right?

CARLSON: That's exactly right. We don't have people on the show who haven't lost governorships.

It's one thing to get just crushed in elections, it's another to learn nothing from it. I want you to take a look at something that Senator Tom Daschle said on "Meet The Press" on Sunday. I'm going to read it to you. This is his explanation for the defeat: "Seventy- eight million votes were vast. Forty-four thousand in three states would have made us the majority party. So I don't think there's any mandate here."

Now, I'm not going to bore you with the things you know, that this was historically really an amazing election. Nothing like this has ever happened before in American history. Isn't this evidence...

REICH: ...an incumbent president, not losing but gaining.

CARLSON: Exactly.

REICH: It's happened before...

CARLSON: For Senator Daschle to get on and say this...

REICH: Not since the late Civil War.

CARLSON: That's right. So this is kind of pathetic in light of what you just said, isn't it?

REICH: It's pathetic and if you don't have a message and you don't have a messenger, you're in trouble. And the Democrats did not have a message and they didn't have a messenger.

Other than that, we did very well I thought.

CARLSON: Well how about on the war? I mean it seems to me this is -- people talk about Social Security, prescription drugs, important issues no doubt.

But there is a war on and another one brewing and the Democrats don't have a position on it.

REICH: But look at -- every survey shows the economy, the economy, the economy, the economy. James, you remember the economy?

CARVILLE: I remember it quite well. I remember how good it was till these clowns go in there.

REICH: The economy was terrific in the late 1990s and the American public considered the economy the No. 1 issue above Iraq and above terrorism. And yet the Democrats did not manage to come up with a national theme around the economy.

CARVILLE: But Bob, let me ask you -- I'll go ahead and put my pot back on because we're talking about the war and my party is under siege here, but what should they have said? All right, you're are...

REICH: The problem with the Democrats -- people like you put on those hats. Michael Dukakis -- I remember all of this.

CARVILLE: Tell me what the Democrats should have said.

REICH: Well, I think, James, the Democrats should have said we are in a recession. We're not getting out of recession. The White House has no policy. What we ought to be doing is No. 1, we ought to be providing a tax cut not to the rich, but to average working people to put more money in their pockets. A payroll tax cut, for example.

And No. 2, the states are all broke and they can't do education. They can't do training. They can't do health care. We're going to also help bail out the states. We're going make sure schools are No. 1 and we're going to provide a fiscal stimulus for this economy so people and the economy can get going again.

CARVILLE: So what do we say if somebody says, That sounds like a bunch of '70s Mo liberalism, washed over garbage, et cetera, et cetera.

REICH: Doesn't matter what people say. That's what people want. You know, I -- again I was a political candidate, an unsuccessful political candidate but that doesn't stop me from having my views.

I went around Massachusetts, but also around the country in a free floating focus group. People around this country, whether they call themselves Republicans or conservatives or liberals -- they are concerned about the economy. They're concerned about their jobs. They're concerned about their homes and their -- you know, the people in their households in terms of education. Kitchen table issues.

Democrats ought to be talking about this. They're so afraid of being tax and spend liberals. They start sounding like Herbert Hoover. Oh, we've got to avoid a deficit. We've got to be fiscally responsible. We have to -- you know, at a time when we have a recession, let's not talk about -- it doesn't matter if you run deficits. It is perfectly fine to run deficits.

CARLSON; And you may be right and you're a principled liberal, lefty and good for you. But where is the evidence that this election is an example of the American people crying out for more liberal politics?

REICH: Tucker, it's not a matter of liberal or conservative. That's the point. Americans are concerned about their jobs, they're concerned about schools, they're concerned about the economy. Consumer confidence is going down. It's not going up. This economy, right now, is the -- it's not only a jobless recovery, it may be going into a double dip. And a double dip is not an ice cream cone. A double dip means, basically, another recession. We could be going into deflation now.

CARLSON: But you have described something that no one argues with and that is that the economy is in trouble. But you haven't prescribed...

REICH: And the Bush administration has had no economic policy, no economic spokesperson. The treasury -- O'Neill is a joke.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Let me -- what about this. What about having some first class people in positions of economic policymaking? I mean, like having Harvey Pitt never in there? Or having a new treasury secretary, a new economic adviser? Could we try that?

REICH: You could try that. But in terms of actually running an election works have and we should -- and 19 -- you know, 2004 is coming up. We ought to be thinking right now, we as Democrats, about what our message is going to be. It's not just better management of the economy. It's not substituting SEC. It is actually providing people, again, a working class, working person's -- working family tax cut, payroll tax cut and No. 2, helping bail out the states in terms of education and infrastructure and health care. Those are very direct messages.

How many of you in favor of that? Look at all the hands going up. Look at everybody here in favor of this.

CARVILLE: Health care are costs going up at 14 percent a year. This administration is doing nothing. The number of uninsured is going up. They've done nothing yet. The Democrats didn't talk about health care. Why not?

REICH: I think they're still worried -- they're still traumatized by 1994 and 1995. They remember the Clinton health care plan and they're running away from health care.

I don't think they should runway from it, James. I think health care, right now -- employers are pushing co-payments, deductibles and premiums back on employees to a larger extent than ever before. Forty-one million people in this country uninsured. If you had a Democratic candidate in 2004, 2003 that came up with a health care plan that was not complicated, it was very straightforward, it was universal, it was affordable, that candidate would have a very good chance.

CARLSON: Wait, wait, wait. I want to get an answer to my first original question you. You do what a lot of Democrats do when I brought up the war and said, That's not really the issue. It is the economy.

But the fact is, when the United States sends or is planning to send American troops to go get killed overseas -- kind of a big deal. I don't know why the Democrats haven't addressed this, come up with a position that represents the...

REICH: I there is a position. The Democratic position is we've got to fight terrorism first and Iraq may be a little bit of a detour, particularly because there's not a direct set of evidence linking al Qaeda and Iraq.

Now, some Democrats have said that already. The late Paul Wellstone talked about that, Ted Kennedy, but Al Gore talked about that and got a very respectful response.

But the Democrats, during this election, did not take that issue and run with it. They basically said, We are afraid of the president's huge poll numbers. This is a war. We don't want to get close to it. 9/11.

CARLSON: But wait. Don't they have a moral obligation -- I'm not talking even politics here for just one moment.

Doesn't the Democratic party which represents at least half of all Americans, theoretically, anyway, have a moral obligation to come up with a consistent and thoughtful position on this issue, which is the biggest issue?

REICH: Well, of course they have a -- I mean, there ought to be a loyal opposition in this country. There ought to be a Democratic party that is a party that has a set of themes domestically on the economy and also foreign policy, but there is no party. There is no party. There is no Democratic party.

CARVILLE: I agree. The Democratic party basically had a position and it was the position that the Bush administration adapted and it is we ought to go through the U.N. and use international organizations.

REICH: We cannot be a Republican lite party.

CARVILLE: ... Party basically had a position and it was the position that the Bush administration adapted and it is we ought to go through the U.N. and use international...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: What I reject is the argument the Democratic Party, that it's something that's got liberal conservatives. I don't think it is. I think the Democratic Party has to assert itself as a party of ideas. I did not see that as this election came through.

I think the important thing -- I think if we allow ourselves to get caught into are we new Democrats, old Democrats, blue dog Democrats, I think -- it is a losing thing.

What I think this party needs to be is a party of ideas. This -- the Republican Party has ideas. They all come from 1981. The idea that we can't run against it, this is the most regressive retrospective Democratic Party in history.

REICH: They all march in lockstep. They're disciplined. We are a big tent, they are a Ziploc bag.

CARVILLE: If God didn't want me to think, he would have made me a Republican, but he didn't. He made me a Democrat, so therefore I have different ideas about things.

CARLSON: Before we get pulled off into theology here with James, what do you think of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Streisand wing of the party, of Nancy Pelosi.

REICH: There is no Streisand wing of the party. Come on, Tucker.

CARLSON: I'm being dead serious. I'm talking about old- fashioned California liberals.

REICH: Nancy Pelosi is going to do a terrific job. She is a very abled politician. You can't -- if you can actually get a big, big group of Democrats on the House side and that quickly get them assembled and get them supporting you, you've got to be a good politician. She is very, very skillful. She is going to do a good job.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You don't like women in politics and you don't like San Francisco. You know what, I like both.

CARLSON: I'm from San Francisco, you moron. What are you talking about?

CARVILLE: No you're not. You're from San Diego County, you moron.

REICH: I think Nancy's going to do a good job. But the issue here, don't we still do not have a spokesperson. Terry McAuliffe may be good at raising money but he's not a Democratic spokesperson and...

(CROSSTALK)

REICH: And Tom Daschle is trying to keep all the Democrats in the fold where there is not a message, there is not a messenger...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Unfortunately we're out of time. Robert Reich, thanks so much for joining us. I hope your party takes your advice. Thank you.

CARLSON: Good to see you.

Still ahead, a task even more daunting than getting the Democrats back into the White House, Miss Manners will try teaching us to be polite.

Later, have police department leakers compromised the case against one of the D.C. area sniper suspects.

And in our "Quote of the Day," which CROSSFIRE co-host guessed right? Get out your crystal ball and see if they'll tell you before we come back. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Some things in Washington are really big deals. But you have to live here to appreciate it. Things like where to find good parking spaces near the Capitol or the good seats at the best restaurant or who wins the "Washington Post Crystal Ball Award" this year, the 11 time the paper has offered its coveted award, a dozen pundits made predictions about the outcome of the election.

Nobody was 100 percent perfect. But one man, one man, correctly predicted the GOP gain in the House, its return to power in the Senate and that Congresswoman Connie Morella would lose. I quote the "Washington Post," "The time for anointment has come. Congratulations to Tucker Carlson of CNN'S CROSSFIRE."

CARLSON: Thank you, James. CARVILLE: Tucker -- hail, hail.

CARLSON: And I hope you'll take me a little more seriously in my predictions from now on.

CARVILLE: I will.

CARLSON: And I can guess your weight if you'd like.

CARVILLE: Alabama/LSU is getting 2 1/2 at home against Alabama this Saturday. Which way should I go?

CARLSON: LSU.

CARVILLE: A-ha.

CARLSON: And I predict Al Gore will not run for president but instead embrace an Eastern Religion like Cat Stevens and change his name.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: On behalf of Ted Turner and Walter Isaacson, the entire CNN family, Richard Parsons, I want to present to you as a token of our just awe at your predictive abilities and the honor and glory you bring to this network and this program, I want to present to you my public but dear friend I man a respect a great deal, Tucker Carlson. Take this crystal ball.

CARLSON: Well, thank you, James. I'll think of you when I play with it.

Well the CROSSFIRE crystal ball remains cloudy, and some other questions, most of them manners related. Next, we're calling in Miss Manners to help resolve them. She'll be joining us here in the studio.

First though, Connie Chung has a CNN "News Alert" and the latest on the deadly storms in the American South.

Then, have talkative cops ruined the prosecutions chances in the sniper case? We'll ask that question and others, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. The 17- year-old suspect in the D.C. area sniper shootings allegedly has described the killings as a kind of military operation in which he and his partner communicated over two-way radios.

During a seven-hour session last week, John Lee Malvo also allegedly told authorities he was the trigger man on some of the shootings. We know about his statement because sources leaked it. We also know that no attorney was present when Malvo was interrogated. The question now, have authorities just blown their case out of the water?

Two attorneys dive into the CROSSFIRE tonight, criminal defense attorney William Moffitt, and Jack Burkman.

CARVILLE: Mr. Burkman, I assume that we'll know the validity of the confession in terms of the procedural things, when they'll show it, and the judge can decide, but my question is, Why did they leak it? What was the sort of thought process behind leaking this thing to the "Washington Post"?

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Well, media is part of the strategy. Chief Moose found out if he used the media a little more effectively, this case could have been wrapped up before 12 people were shot. You have got five branches of government, media is one of them.

CARVILLE: I know, but why -- to what advantage would the prosecutors have by giving these defense lawyers a chance to raise something like that? Why didn't they just keep their mouths shut, and show it when the thing came up?

BURKMAN: That may not have been a bad strategy, but you have to understand, even if the confession comes in, I think it will come in, it is still not going to hurt the case because they have got enough...

CARVILLE: I agree.

BURKMAN: There is 100 other things showing that he pulled the trigger. You don't even need it.

CARVILLE: I agree, but what my point is -- is -- don't let Tucker jump in here, why give -- and it is said that this -- it brings up a whole thing, and it is going to be just like when -- in the McVeigh case, when they didn't...

BURKMAN: You're looking for weaknesses in the case. There are no weaknesses in the case.

CARVILLE: Don't tell me -- I'm not looking for a weakness in the case. I'm asking you why did they...

CARLSON: Apparently, there was not an attorney present when John Lee Malvo apparently confessed. Maybe he didn't want an attorney. Are you not allowed to confess without an attorney?

WILLIAM MOFFITT, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You certainly are allowed to confess without an attorney, but there are things you need to take into consideration in dealing with Mr. Malvo. First of all, he's 17 years old. Second of all, he is from a culture that is different from this culture, he's from Jamaica.

CARLSON: Where they shoot people? MOFFITT: Well, not where they shoot people, but certainly, he is not a member -- a person who was raised in the United States. He does not know that he can keep his mouth shut under the circumstances.

BURKMAN: That's not relevant. He was Mirandized. He was properly Mirandized.

MOFFITT: And I would suggest -- I would suggest to you that the police told him that if he talked, it would help him in some way.

(CROSSTALK)

MOFFITT: I would really like to know how it is going to help him when we seek to kill him.

CARLSON: Wait. First of all, if it is true, he killed a lot of other people, so I guess that is a sort of secondary point.

MOFFITT: That hasn't been determined yet. But that certainly hasn't been determined yet.

CARLSON: Hold on. Whatever. Apparently, he was read his Miranda rights, which inform him he doesn't have to speak. So how can you say he didn't know?

MOFFITT: Well, we don't know when he was read his Miranda rights, we don't know the circumstances under which he was read his Miranda rights.

We don't know what he was told before he was read his Miranda rights. There is a lot we don't know.

BURKMAN: It is all a moot point because the case law has tightened up in the last 50 years.

CARVILLE: We'll know -- the judge -- obviously, they're going to make a motion to suppress his confession. Obviously, they're going to show, and one would have to assume that the part of it -- it says, You realize that you have a right to have a lawyer here, but they go through all of that, I assume all of that is on that tape.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: Why are the two of you -- the issue is the death penalty. Why do the two of you -- why are you reticent in this case to give this guy the death penalty? All I hear is...

MOFFITT: I'm reticent in every case.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: If not now, when? If not now, when?

MOFFITT: I am also reticent in the sense we are one of the few countries in the world that executes juveniles.

BURKMAN: And we should take pride in that.

MOFFITT: We should take...

CARLSON: Mr. Moffitt, I want to get back to something you said. You said a second ago that this is a man from another culture, and while that is literally true -- of course, he is from Jamaica and Antigua, I still can't figure out how that is relevant. Just because you're from another country doesn't mean you don't know murder is bad, right?

MOFFITT: Let me suggest to you several ways it might be relevant. The court appointed him a guardian ad lightum, a person to help him understand what was happening to him. The police refused that person entry to speak to him.

Why would you appoint a guardian ad lightum for no purpose?

CARLSON: What does that have to do with his culture though? I want to get back to why that's relevant.

MOFFITT: Well, his culture is relevant because he's not familiar with the process.

BURKMAN: I am shocked at the sympathy. Why is it -- this reminds me of 9/11. People after -- two weeks later there was sympathy -- all the --

Why is there sympathy for these people?

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Stop right now. Tell me why I ever expressed any sympathy for this guy? If you're going come on here and say I have sympathy for a sniper. Say where I said I have sympathy for him.

BURKMAN: The nature of your question...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I did not say nothing -- you know what, I didn't say nothing about -- I said why did the police leak this? That was the only question I asked.

BURKMAN: What you don't understand...

CARVILLE: No if you're going to accuse someone -- you come on this show you accuse people of being for a sniper you now what, I'm going to tell you you're a liar, I never did it. I never did it.

BURKMAN: You did it with the very asking of the question is silly because the case is air tight with both of these people.

CARVILLE: Silly to ask why...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Mr. Burkman back on your assertion that James is defending the sniper.

BURKMAN: He is defending with the asking of the question because both of these people -- the case is air tight. What you've said -- what all the liberals are saying -- all the liberals are...

MOFFITT: Isn't that what you're suggesting?

BURKMAN: All of the liberals are saying you need Malvo to cooperate. You don't need him to cooperate. You don't have to flip Malvo.

CARVILLE: I haven't said a word about it. I asked you a question. Why did the police leak this which would -- I thought was a dumb thing to do, to give people a defense to come in. If you're going to say -- if you come on here, I'm not going say something you didn't say. I just asked one question. I've never expressed any sympathy. I don't have sympathy for Malvo. My question, why did they leak it?

CARLSON: Mr. Moffitt, you said why don't we lynch him as if people are suggesting -- that strikes me as a non sequitur. Nobody's suggesting we lynch him. Why would you say something like that?

MOFFITT: Well we're certainly suggesting that the case is air tight. We haven't heard a word. We don't know.

BURKMAN: We haven't heard a word? We found the car fitted with a gun rack for a long range rifle.

CARLSON: Let him answer.

MOFFITT: Not one word has been said in a courtroom. In our system of justice, that's where the decision is made. Not in the newspapers. Not pretrial. Not before hand. It's made in the courtroom. The suggestion here is that we don't have to follow that process.

CARLSON: But wait a second. Nobody is suggesting that. Don't ordinary people have a right to make up their own mind minds? We're not talking about sending anyone to death on the basis of this?

MOFFITT: Not before there is a piece of evidence heard in a courtroom.

CARLSON: You can't make up your own mind before that?

MOFFITT: If you do -- how can you pick a jury if people are making their mind before any word is heard in the courtroom?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Jack, we're almost out of time. Sum it up here.

BURKMAN: They say the venue -- people say, Well, change the venue. They can't get a fair trial in Virginia. They say, Well the Virginia terrorism statute might be unconstitutional. They say, Well, he said, You can't prove Muhammad pulled the trigger.

All of this stuff aimed at the left saying that the system cannot give a fair trial for these people.

MOFFITT: That's ludicrous.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: We are completely out of time. You guys are getting along. I see the makings of something here.

Mr. Moffitt, Mr. Burkman, thank you both very much.

Still to come, defenders of Barbra Streisand and an opponent of Nancy Pelosi "fire back" at us.

But next, will James Carville learn to bark politely? Stay with us for CROSSFIRE with Miss Manners.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, where admittedly our partisan enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of us. But we're willing to improve ourselves.

Miss Manners is going to teach us, the host of cable TV's longest running talk shows, "Our Manners." And you can play at home thanks to her latest book, "Star-Spangled Manners," in which Miss Manners defends American etiquette for a change.

Please welcome Miss Manners, Judith Martin.

CARLSON: Now, Judith Martin, I'm afraid I'm going to have call you Miss Manners, I just can't help it. One of the great things...

JUDITH MARTIN, "MISS MANNERS": Madame would be OK, too.

CARLSON: Madame? Madame?

MARTIN: Yes.

CARLSON: Let me tell you what I liked about your book. Many things. But you in here set the record straight about American manners relative to the manners of our friends in Europe. I just want to read you one quote, from page 46: "Unaware of the history of American etiquette, many Americans take the America-basher's word for it that foreigners in general, and the English and the French in particular, observe a permanent standard that we fail to meet."

In other words, the French are horrible. How horrible are they?

MARTIN: Let us say that we are not quite as horrible as we sometimes think we are. Now, I'm not going to let up on the attack on American rudeness which is everywhere and horrendous and needs correcting.

CARLSON: But compared to the French, I mean, seriously.

MARTIN: This is not a ball game, you know, where we're playing the French.

The principles of American manners are a lot better than the principles -- European principles from which they were originally derived.

CARVILLE: There is a kind of proper way to do everything. There is a right way and a wrong way. And one of the things I had a problem with last Tuesday night -- I want to show you a clip and maybe you can give me a hand here -- I don't know. What's the proper way to put a trash can on one's head?

MARTIN: Well actually, that's very becoming.

CARVILLE: Becoming? Now look up there...

MARTIN: You might consider it more often.

CARVILLE: OK. I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't outside the bounds of good etiquette.

CARLSON: So what you're saying, if I hear you correctly and I think I am, it's a situational thing. I mean, it's like situational ethics. Not everybody looks bet we are a trash can on his head, but some do is what you're saying?

MARTIN: Yes. Yes. And here I thought it was a graceful little compliment, right?

CARLSON: Now, when is an appropriate time to argue? I mean, since James and I argue for a living, tell us.

MARTIN: Etiquette is what makes argument possible. It's not what stifles argument. And it has a few little rules, one of which I realize is kind of esoteric and you people haven't heard about it. But it's that when you have a debate, one person talks at a time and that way everybody can hear what is being said.

CARVILLE: Miss Manners, let me show you a particularly naughty little boy here. Know what I mean? Go ahead, can we play her some CROSSFIRE and have Miss Manners comment on this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tucker clearly doesn't want to hear the answer. But the decision was based not on those misrepresentations. The decision was based on proposed revisions.

CARLSON: That's not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tucker, honestly, you really come on TV and have no idea what you're talking about.

CARLSON: You have no idea what you're talking about. You're not even telling the truth. It is ridiculous.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Don't you think he went on far too long? I mean, at a certain point, if you're wrong, don't you think you ought to just admit it? I mean, isn't that part of manners?

MARTIN: It's part of manners to let people take a turn and state their position so if you want to slam them the next -- into next week, you have the material to do it with.

CARVILLE: Would it be good manners if we say, hold, off and glove slapped him in the middle of that while he was being rude, that guy?

MARTIN: Actually, yes that was -- it's been made illegal, but the dual was a very elaborate structure of manners that said, You look at me cross-eyed and I'll send you into next week.

CARLSON: Andrew Jackson. Let me show you someone who I think needs a lot of help -- your professional help, to be quite honest with you. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: James, why does that offend you so much? They killed 3,000 people.

CARVILLE: These mosques in these countries, that are praying, that are working, that are good Americans, that pay taxes here. They're not evil people. They're good people.

And for you to suggest that, it's just wrong....

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: James, you're dripping.

CARVILLE: I'm not dripping. I think you ought to tell the good people that that's not what it is. That irritates the hell out of me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: He's supposed to take off his shoe and bang it on the table.

CARLSON: Don't you think gun play would be more polite than that? Honestly, in the end.

MARTIN: Probably. Yes. And a lot quieter.

CARVILLE: I gotta say that it is a truly an honor to have you, most well manned person in America, on America's rudest television show.

What -- tell us a little bit about your book here. Honestly, tell us what your central point is.

MARTIN: Well, it is the defense of American manners which I never thought I would do. But it's a defense of the etiquette of egalitarianism. And we have not only invented it but we've spread it around the world. It goes to people whose governments have become more like ours and who -- where -- are ready for egalitarianism.

And it spread to people who are trying to fend off any kind of representative government and therefore hate what we're doing and mix in the -- the vulgar transgressions along with the very good principles.

CARLSON: We're almost out of time. What's the one thing all our viewers can do to become more polite today?

MARTIN: Listen to other people. Oh no, that's just around this table.

CARLSON: Too hard.

MARTIN: You know, after September 11, everybody turned polite. There was a sudden feeling of compassion and everybody said, In the midst of this horrific tragedy, isn't it wonderful the way people behave? And then some people said -- and the world has changed forever and the next week, we were right back where we started from.

You would think that people would take a lesson from how pleasant that was in the middle of tragedy. And realize, you know, it's not a budget line-item. We can have a pleasant community for free.

CARLSON: Well that's why they still need your book, the "Star- Spangled Manners."

Miss Manners, Judith Martin, thanks very much for joining us.

CARVILLE: Glad to have you on the show.

CARLSON: See if we can mind our manners, even when James Carville's many fans start firing back. That's next. Please don't go away. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: You know, it's not just about us here on CROSSFIRE. It's also about you. And we read your e-mails every night. Here are some.

"I'm a lifelong Democrat," writes Sean from San Diego, "but if Nancy Pelosi becomes minority leader I will switch to Independent the next day!" Good for you, Shawn. "She defended Condit," comma, "for God's sake!" period. And she certainly did. I must say, Pretty bold move defending Gary Condit. Even you didn't.

CARVILLE: I didn't defend Gary Condit?

CARLSON: No, I don't think you did. No. CARVILLE: Anyway, what is this?

"James, we need more Democrats like you. Straight up the Hill, kick some butt and take some names. This far right political -- the far right political correctness of not being able to criticize this president without being labeled unpatriotic is unpatriotic." Mr. Bell, Miami, Florida.

CARLSON: I haven't noticed that. I've never heard anybody called unpatriotic ever. It must happen secretly. Because I've never seen it once in my entire life.

CARVILLE: I was accused of being sympathetic for the snipers.

CARLSON: Robert from Tampa, Florida writes: "Tucker, leave Barbra Streisand alone. Besides, she could kick your evil Mr. Rogers butt anytime."

Now, here's the fascinating thing about this e-mail. Two words are misspelled. Streisand and Rogers. And it leads me to suspect that Barbra Streisand herself wrote this.

CARVILLE: Barbra Streisand is a bright woman.

CARLSON: Yes. She seems it.

CARVILLE: Her assistant can't spell. Who cares? Big deal.

CARLSON: Nice excuse.

CARVILLE: "Please tell Tucker that in two years Barbra Streisand will be singing 'Happy Days are Here Again' in his key. I can't wait." Carol Sullivan, Norwood, Missouri.

CARLSON: You don't know what my key is.

CARVILLE: I can't wait for Barbra Streisand to sing at any time.

CARLSON: She's welcome on our show.

CARVILLE: She was one of the best people of this generation or any generation.

CARLSON: Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, My name's Kendra Wright (ph) and I'm from Alexandra, Virginia and I was just thinking that I think most people probably support rehabilitation, whether you're dealing with drug users or in Tucker's case, Republicans.

But, you know, don't at some point we have to admit some people are just lost causes and isn't Miss Manners' work lost on you as CROSSFIRE hosts?

CARLSON: Well, I think it is a fundamental problem of role here. We are not here to be polite. We're here for contention. We're all about contention. Do you agree that, James?

CARVILLE: People say that we're everything wrong with the culture in Washington, they got a point. We snipe. We (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We interrupt, yeah, this is not the most polite, nicest show in Washington.

CARLSON: Amen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Ashley Rebay (ph) from Greenwich, Connecticut (ph). And whether you agree with Republicans or not, they are -- they aren't as wishy washy as the Democrats.

Maybe perhaps Democrats should instead of pandering to the moderate American public, which prefer the Republican leadership anyway, maybe they should be not so wishy washy and take a distinctive stand on issues.

CARLSON: Then they would have to have real ideas and that's beyond the scope of the party right now.

CARVILLE: The Republicans are not as wishy washy as the Democrats and it is a valid observation to say that we need some ideas out there. I'm all for it.

From the left, I'm James Carville. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com



© 2004 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us.
external link
All external sites will open in a new browser.
CNN.com does not endorse external sites.