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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT

Virginia Gets First Crack at Snipers; Winona Ryder Juror Speaks Out

Aired November 7, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: The feds clear the way for Virginia to seek the death penalty for the accused snipers.

The feds drop charges against Muhammad and Malvo. The sniper suspects could face the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant, Winona Ryder, guilty of the crime of vandalism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Tonight: the only juror to talk about the Winona Ryder trial tells what really happened in the jury room.

The war on terror takes on a new focus to the jungles of South America. Tonight: best-selling author Sebastian Junger and his firsthand account of al Qaeda training camps in our own backyard.

How many 6-year-olds do you know with their own talk show?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIA SIMONE, SINGER: I don't get nervous. I get happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE PIJOR SHOW")

SIMONE: How long have you been singing?

INOBE, MUSICIAN: Well, I've been singing probably since I was your age.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Tonight, we'll meet a little girl with a very big talent.

ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Major developments in the case of the D.C. sniper suspects: The federal government dropped its charges against John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. In doing so, Attorney General John Ashcroft cleared the way for the two men to go on trial in Virginia. In Virginia, Malvo could be executed as a juvenile. And federal prosecutors think there's a greater chance for Muhammad to be executed as well in Virginia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I have instructed the U.S. Marshals Service to transfer custody of John Allen Muhammad to Prince William County, Virginia, where he has been indicted for capital murder, conspiracy to commit murder and using a firearm in the commission of murder. If convicted of these crimes with which he is charged, Muhammad could face the death penalty.

I have also instructed the Marshals Service to transfer custody of a juvenile to Fairfax County, Virginia, where he has been charged with capital murder and using a firearm in the commission of murder. If convicted as an adult, the juvenile could face the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: The two defendants were transferred into the custody of Virginia officials. Malvo is in Fairfax County, and Muhammad Prince William County.

At almost the same time today, police in Atlanta, Georgia, said a gun used to kill a man there on September 21 is the same gun found after the deadly shooting later that day in Alabama, where Malvo's fingerprint was found. All told, investigators now blame the two for 20 shootings, 15 of them deadly.

Joining us now from Washington is CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena, who broke this story earlier today.

Kelli, do you know why the Justice Department selected these two counties in Virginia?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you heard the attorney general. The major factor, of course, was the possibility for death penalty charges. And, in Virginia, as you know, it's very likely that both men will face the death penalty, including Malvo.

But in terms of evidence that is available in Fairfax or Prince William County, no one is saying much. The prosecutors would not elaborate, said that facts were for the courtroom, not for press conferences. And the attorney general would only say that this was a fact-based decision. Whether or not we'll find out exactly what it was that makes these two areas the strongest in terms of the two individuals has yet to be seen. But, right now, it really is not very clear.

CHUNG: Do you have any idea of when these trials will begin? ARENA: Well, we spoke to both prosecutors today. And they're hoping that they can get it done before the end of next year, 2003. There are lots of pretrial motions and hearings that need to be had before this can all get started, discovery and so on. So this is a long way off.

CHUNG: Now, Maryland had more shootings than Virginia. Have you had a chance to talk to that prosecutor?

ARENA: Well, interestingly enough, state attorney Doug Gansler was not at the press conference today with the attorney general, although many of his counterparts were.

And we know that Mr. Gansler has made the case and said: "Hey, wait a minute. Most of the shootings have been in Montgomery County. Our community was most affected. We should have the chance to go first here." He didn't, obviously. And he released a statement today. And basically what it says is: The most important objective in all these prosecutions is that justice be done -- not really much more than that, obviously a great disappointment in Maryland.

But the primary issue here, Connie, was the death penalty. And in Virginia, you have a more certain chance of the death penalty for both individuals.

CHUNG: All right, Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent in Washington, thank you.

ARENA: You're welcome.

CHUNG: And joining us now from Washington is Virginia's attorney general, Jerry Kilgore.

Attorney General Kilgore, thank you for joining us.

JERRY KILGORE, VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good to be with you.

CHUNG: I think what's fascinating and actually quite clever, in some ways, is that Malvo will be tried in Fairfax County and Muhammad will be tried in Prince William County, both in Virginia. Was that your recommendation to the federal government?

KILGORE: You know, it was the recommendation of the U.S. attorney, John Ashcroft, that Virginia get both of these cases, but that we base that upon the best facts, the best law and the best range of punishment.

In looking at the best facts, one would go to Fairfax County, Malvo, the juvenile. And, certainly, Muhammad would go to be tried in Prince William County. We have able prosecutors in both jurisdictions. They are reading, willing and able to try these cases.

CHUNG: When you say best facts, do you mean best evidence?

KILGORE: Well, I think that's where the U.S. attorney general was going today. I think every case... (CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: Forgive me for interrupting you, but did each of the district attorneys or the county prosecutors present their cases to the attorney general?

KILGORE: The attorney general and the Justice Department worked in close contact with law enforcement officials from each community, Prince William, Fairfax, down to Hanover and to Spotsylvania counties as well, to determine the best places, based upon the best evidence, to try these individuals.

I'm convinced they are making well-informed decisions. We've seen great cooperation from the Justice Department here in these cases. And we are pleased to be moving forward in Virginia.

CHUNG: Do you believe that these trials will take place simultaneously?

KILGORE: You know, that's for the prosecutors to get together and decide. Certainly, there will be evidentiary issues they'll have to work out. There will be a lot of the same evidence that will need to be introduced into both trials. And I'm convinced that these prosecutors, they have worked well together in the past. They will continue to work well together in the future.

CHUNG: Now, Malvo is only 17 years old. Do you think he will be certified as an adult and then be potentially eligible for the death penalty?

KILGORE: You know, under the new Virginia law that we changed back in 1996, we had a juvenile justice reform. We gave the ability to the prosecutor to make that determination in very violent crimes such as this one.

So, the attorney commonwealth attorney for Fairfax County, Mr. Horan, will get to make that determination. I'm convinced he'll make that determination and have Malvo tried as an adult in Fairfax County Circuit Court.

CHUNG: When do you think that there will be the evidentiary hearings? When will all this begin?

KILGORE: The Prince William prosecutor indicated that some proceedings will begin as early as tomorrow. And then the prosecutors will work out a timeframe.

Obviously, the defendants will be entitled to counsel. The counsel will have to come in and redo the evidence and work with a commonwealth attorney on setting the case for trial in each jurisdiction.

CHUNG: Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore, thank you so much for being with us.

KILGORE: Thank you. CHUNG: And still ahead, we'll talk to one of the jurors who convicted Winona Ryder.

Stay with us.

A defector from Saddam Hussein's inner circle tells his story, a firsthand account of the dangerous dictator -- when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: The prosecutor says actress Winona Ryder should not spend a day in jail for stealing more than $5,500 from Saks Fifth Avenue in Beverly Hills. She is scheduled for a sentencing hearing on December 6.

Yesterday, a jury of six men and six women, including a former producer of Ryder's, convicted her, but found that prosecutors had not proven that Ryder entered the store with intent to steal.

Joining me now from Los Angeles is one of those jurors, Dr. Walter Fox.

Dr. Fox, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

DR. WALTER FOX, JUROR IN WINONA RYDER CASE: You're welcome.

CHUNG: Dr. Fox, I want to get a sense of what the discussions were like in that jury room. When you first sat down with the other jurors for what turned out to be 5 1/2 hours of deliberations, did you vote or did you discuss the case?

FOX: Well, our initial move was to take a vote on all three of the charges...

CHUNG: And how did it come out?

FOX: ... as a preliminary vote.

CHUNG: Right.

FOX: Well, actually, there was a lack of unanimity on all three of them. So we decided to tackle the ones that seemed to be the easiest to cope with. And that one was the -- we went backwards and went from vandalism to the grand theft charge.

CHUNG: I see.

And did you soon come to the conclusion that you were going to vote unanimously on grand theft and vandalism? Or did it take some time?

FOX: Really not soon enough.

We were trying very assiduously to keep everybody happy and to see to it that we didn't get angry or delay the process too much.

CHUNG: Were there some jurors who wanted to find her not guilty of grand larceny and vandalism?

FOX: Initially, there were a few jurors who were very unhappy with what they perceived was the quality of the Saks Fifth Avenue witnesses.

CHUNG: Oh, I see.

FOX: And, ultimately, what we derived was that the need to convict was really readily proved by the only fact that we had to consider. And that was that she walked out of the store with the items that belonged to Saks and that she vandalized them, so that, ultimately, the choice was made not considering what -- although we certainly talked about it, but not basically dissecting the witness testimony or even the video, the close-circuit television that they had on.

It was obvious from some of those things on the video that the method of her packing the stuff in the hat and changing hats and then ultimately not revealing the sensor tags. When it became apparent to us that, of all of the information that we had, all we really needed was the fact that she walked out of the store, which was essential, that she had merchandise for which she had not paid, and that some of the merchandise had been vandalized.

CHUNG: And vandalized is because she had apparently cut the sensors off the clothing -- or whatever she had -- and, in fact, rendered it unable to wear, didn't she?

FOX: Well, it depends on how sloppy you want to be when you wear something.

(LAUGHTER)

FOX: She could have tucked those things into a skirt or something like that and worn them.

CHUNG: I see.

FOX: But I don't believe that stealing them was necessarily for the purpose of wearing them, because, otherwise, she would have dealt with a lot of things that she took, I think, in a different manner.

CHUNG: Did you find that the other jurors felt sorry for her?

FOX: You know, I don't really believe, Connie, that we engaged in any discussions of that sort. We were basically concerned with the facts of the case. And, no matter who it was, we felt that we had to come to a just decision.

CHUNG: Do you think that you and the other jurors went into this case, and, as the trial progressed, did you go on believing that it might be a touch frivolous, that perhaps the prosecution was going after her unfairly?

FOX: Well, I thought the prosecutor, first of all, did an excellent job. She was meticulous. She had covered all of the bases. And, in a sense, if you wanted to call it, it was almost overkill, but she couldn't have known that when she was presenting the evidence.

CHUNG: Dr. Walter Fox, we thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

FOX: You're very welcome. OK.

CHUNG: Still ahead: Al Qaeda may have training camps that are closer to America than we ever thought.

Stay with us.

Still ahead: Saddam Hussein, from a humble peasant to a dangerous dictator. We'll go inside the mind of Saddam, the king of terror, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: In a moment, we are going to talk about the man who appears to be America's No. 1 priority, Saddam Hussein.

But what about al Qaeda? A new article in "Vanity Fair" raises the disturbing specter of al Qaeda training camps in a terrorist haven closer to the U.S. than many have imagined, right in South America, in the region where Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil meet, known as the Triple Border. How long has American intelligence known about this? And could information from the region have prevented September 11?

Well, joining me now is the article's author, "Vanity Fair" contributing editor Sebastian Junger.

Thank you so much for being with us.

SEBASTIAN JUNGER, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "VANITY FAIR": My pleasure.

CHUNG: All right, based on your reporting, what can you tell us about Triple Border?

JUNGER: Well, it's an area with a lot of black market activity, a large Muslim population. And Hezbollah has been in there for about 10 years. They mounted two attacks in Argentina from there in the early 90s. And now it looks like al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations from around the world are there as well.

CHUNG: Did the United States know about this Triple Border?

JUNGER: Yes and no. My understanding -- it's always a murky story, of course -- but the CIA asked Argentine intelligence to infiltrate Triple Border in the mid-'90s to find out about Hezbollah. And what Argentine intelligence came back with was not only Hezbollah, but al Qaeda. And that was so incredible to the CIA, they basically -- they dismissed it. They said, "That's not possible."

Now they have picked it up quite vigorously, of course. But, for a while, they lost a couple of years there. CHUNG: And you connected with a former Argentinian intelligence officer. And the most shocking thing, I think, is that, seven months before 9/11, he wrote a letter to U.S. authorities.

JUNGER: Yes, he wrote a letter. He claims he wrote a letter to Ambassador Walsh in Argentina, warning of attacks on September 11. He didn't say September 11, but he said in the next half-year or so that suicide pilots will fly planes into buildings.

That is corroborated by a young Moroccan who was an al Qaeda operative in Brazil named Abdel Fatah (ph), who, one week beforehand, had a change of heart and tried to get a letter to U.S. authorities warning about September 11. Clearly, he was ignored. Clearly, that information was on the street in South America in the months preceding September 11. Why would that be? Well, obviously, al Qaeda is there.

CHUNG: Well, did this former intelligence officer, Argentinian, specify even the buildings and what would be hit?

JUNGER: Yes, he had a list. He said White House. Obviously, they weren't all hit. But he said possible targets are White House, Congress, Twin Towers, Pentagon.

He also said the planes would have explosives in them, which, apparently, they didn't. But, obviously, his information is not perfect, but he had an extraordinary amount of detailed knowledge, and also about who was in Triple Border. He has names, surveillance photos of Hezbollah and al Qaeda agents who have passed through there.

A lot of this information I've actually confirmed through other sources. So, in my mind, his credibility rises practically every day, actually.

CHUNG: Well, but, then, why did the United States not consider him credible? Why didn't authorities here take it seriously?

JUNGER: Well, to be fair, I think U.S. authorities get a lot of sort of crackpots who contact them about sort of catastrophic warnings. I think they get a lot of that. My contact down there also has a very complicated history with his own government. He tried to warn his own government about terrorist attacks. They ignored him. He spent some time in jail. He's a complicated figure.

I also think, ultimately, they couldn't imagine that it could be true. That al Qaeda could be in South America I think was so inconceivable, they basically didn't want to know about it. That's a very cynical interpretation.

CHUNG: Now, you mentioned that he also provided photographs that you were able to examine.

JUNGER: Yes. He has dozens and dozens of photographs of men who he says are al Qaeda and Hezbollah operatives down there.

CHUNG: And did he pass this along to U.S. authorities as well?

JUNGER: He passed them along to me, and I sent them along.

CHUNG: And what did they consist of? Were they people that are now identifiable or prospective terrorists?

JUNGER: He's identified them, including American right-wing extremists who are down there, who have been down there since the mid- '80s.

CHUNG: You mean Aryan Nations?

JUNGER: Yes, Aryan Nations, Michigan Militia, photos and names of these guys. One was ex-special forces.

CHUNG: An ex-special forces?

JUNGER: Yes, Vietnam era.

That is not unheard of. There was an ex-special forces American soldier who was providing security for bin Laden in Sudan in '94, I believe it was. So, that kind of crossover from sort of alienated American military or right-wing extremists is not unheard of.

He has identified these men to me. The U.S. government, of course, is quite careful about what they confirm and don't confirm. So I haven't gotten anything back from this side. But there's an enormous amount of evidence that this activity is happening.

CHUNG: I guess the burning question -- and just in the last 15 seconds -- is: Do you know of any specific potential terrorist attack against the United States based on this Argentinian's information?

JUNGER: Well, a contact of his who was trained in these al Qaeda training camps says that he has been monitoring meetings they've had in the past month about attacks in the U.S. I've also had that confirmed from other intelligence sources. So, it really looks like something is happening down there.

CHUNG: So frightening.

Thank you.

JUNGER: Thank you.

CHUNG: We appreciate your help and your reporting as well, Sebastian.

Who was Saddam Hussein before he went from a Western ally to enemy?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Tomorrow, President Bush is expected to get the vote he's been pushing for from the U.N. Security Council, a resolution clearing the way for inspectors to return to Iraq and sketching out what happens if Iraq doesn't comply.

Today, President Bush reiterated why he thinks the vote is so important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a statement of intent to once and for all disarm Saddam Hussein. He's a threat. He's a threat to the country. He's a threat to people in his neighborhood. He's a real threat. And it's now time for the world to come together and disarm him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Is Saddam Hussein really a threat to America? And how did he go from being America's ally, even when he was using weapons of mass destruction, to America's enemy?

In a moment, you are going to meet a man who knows more about Saddam Hussein than just about anyone in the Western world. Then you'll meet a man who knows Saddam and his family better than just about anyone in Iraq.

But first, some background on Hussein from CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With Iraq as his stage, for four decades, President Saddam Hussein has been its lead actor, director and playwright.

Born a simple villager in Tikrit in North Central Iraq, according to Hussein's script, he is an adored leader, the father of five children, and a descendant of the prophet Muhammad. The truth, say those who escaped Hussein's dictatorship, is a very different story.

KHIDHIR HAMZA, FORMER IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: Iraq is run by fear. The glue that keeps things together is fear.

KOPPEL: Like his hero, Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin, Hussein has created a cult of personality. He is cold-blooded, cruel and rules Iraq with an iron fist. He's accused of using chemical weapons to kill thousands of Kurds in Northern Iraq. In all, Hussein is believed to have killed as many as one million Iraqis during his reign of terror.

AMATZIA BARAM, UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA: Saddam maintains power by a police state of the worst kind in the world today.

KOPPEL: And, like his name, which means "he who confronts," Hussein's driving ambition since he pushed his uncle out of office in 1979, is absolute power. That, says his former bomb maker, is why Hussein wants a nuclear bomb.

HAMZA: He believes that, through power, he could control the region and he could be the leader of the whole region and change its fate and its future.

KOPPEL: But when it comes to the battlefield, Hussein miscalculates. In 1980, he invaded Iran, convinced its leadership would quickly collapse. Eight years later, Iraq lost that war. In 1990, he made the same mistake in Kuwait, convinced he could defeat U.S. forces.

At 65, Hussein hopes to defeat old age, swimming every day to help a bad back, and said to dye his hair and mustache black to help him look younger. Hussein is also paranoid about germs and his own security, packing his government with friends and family, surrounding himself with guards from his tribal village, sleeping only four or five hours a night and rarely in the same place.

MARK BOWDEN, "ATLANTIC MONTHLY": Each of his like 20 or more palaces prepares three elaborate meals a day, as if Saddam were there. And he's moved from place to place, sort of like a shell game.

KOPPEL (on camera): Another charade: Hussein prefers Iraqis call him "great uncle," even though most believe he runs Iraq like Big Brother.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: London's "Sunday Telegraph" executive editor, Con Coughlin, has reported on the Middle East for 20 years. He's the author of a new book, "Saddam: King of Terror." And he's with us now.

Thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR, "SADDAM: KING OF TERROR": Great to be here.

CHUNG: The extraordinary thing is that you were able to talk to, to interview Saddam's inner circle.

COUGHLIN: That's right.

CHUNG: Tell us, what do you think? Is he as dangerous as we are beginning to perceive here in the United States?

COUGHLIN: Oh, undoubtedly.

The key to Saddam really is that, since really the mid-1970s, he's been trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. And what's really worrying is, when he's developed these weapons -- and we've seen this with chemical and biological weapons -- he's used them. He used them against Iran. He used them against the Kuwaitis. And he used them against the Kurds. And the problem is, if he's left unchallenged, he will use them again.

CHUNG: And I also know that you were able to trace his childhood and how he moved up the ranks in the political system. Was he just born evil or did he become a ruthless dictator because of various experiences in his life?

COUGHLIN: He was born into extreme poverty. His father left the family home shortly after he was born. He didn't have a proper education. And then, when he found himself in the Baath Party, he was stuck with this rather strange peasant accent. His Baathist colleagues laughed at him, said, "You're nothing but a peasant."

And he basically fought his way to the top using his fists. As a young man, he was 6 foot, 2 inches tall, had an impressive physique. He committed his first murder when he was about 19. And, in the book, I've seen the court records and I have documented precisely what he did. And having shown that he could murder people, he was then picked up by the Baathists, who needed a street tough to enforce their policies on the streets of Baghdad. And using that position, Saddam went right to the top.

CHUNG: Now, all of us now know that he goes from palace to palace. He never stays in the same place two nights.

COUGHLIN: Right.

CHUNG: Do you think he's afraid of the United States? Or is he afraid of a traitor from within?

COUGHLIN: He's afraid of his own family. He is so paranoid these days that his own sons, Uday and Qusay, who are effectively the heirs apparent, have to write him a note asking permission to see their father. It can take six weeks before they get a reply. They don't know where he is.

He's fearful of everybody. And, in fact, the threat from the United States in terms of his personal security is the least of his worries.

CHUNG: Isn't that interesting?

I think the million dollar question that all of us here in the United States want to know is, if we do attack Iraq, how is he going to retaliate? Do you have any idea, based on your interviews?

COUGHLIN: Yes.

Well, I've just been traveling in the region and talking to people. And I've come away with a rather alarming assessment of Saddam planning to make a sort of last-ditch stand, really. He's ordered his second son, Qusay, to prepare to save the regime. He's also ordered Qusay to make sure that, if there are weapons inspectors going back to Iraq...

CHUNG: Yes?

COUGHLIN: ... that the weapons are concealed.

But he's also forming suicide squads of Iraqi pilots, who he wants to fly the remainder of his Air Force at neighboring countries laden with biological and chemical weapons. CHUNG: Including the United States? We are certainly not one of those neighboring countries, but is he going to attack the United States?

COUGHLIN: Against American targets in the Middle East, probably.

CHUNG: I see.

COUGHLIN: I think it would be stretching the imagination for an Iraqi jet fighter to get all the way to Manhattan.

CHUNG: Right. But other methods perhaps?

COUGHLIN: Perhaps, yes. He's demonstrated in the past that his terrorist network can hit targets in Europe, in America, in the Middle East. And he's certainly trying to reactivate this.

Furthermore, in the last 10 days, he signed a presidential decree ordering the murder of all the Iraqi opposition leaders. And a lot of the people who have helped me with this book are now on Saddam's hit list and have had to go into hiding.

CHUNG: Thank you so much for your insight into Saddam Hussein. Appreciate it.

COUGHLIN: Pleasure.

CHUNG: When we come back, we'll go even deeper behind the scenes with Saddam, as you meet a man who served for 14 years as an aide to Saddam's son Uday.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: A few minutes ago, we told you how Saddam Hussein, to ensure his security, surrounds himself with a few trusted friends and family.

Abbas Al-Janabi served for 14 years as an aide to Saddam's son Uday, a top figure in Saddam's government. And he joins us tonight from London.

Thank you, sir, for being with us.

I know you fled Iraq in 1998. Before we get to why you fled, can you tell us, how would you compare Uday to Saddam? Are they both ruthless and cruel?

ABBAS AL-JANABI, FORMER PRESS SECY. TO UDAY HUSSEIN: Well, you can say Uday is worse than his father. This is a general impression. But that does not mean that his father is kind or something like that. He is a killer. He started his life with killing a man. And it comes in the book, it's when he was 19. In fact, he was 16 when he killed the first man. And he's one of his cousins, by the way. So he's very cruel. And Uday is worse. Uday also committed many crimes. For example, in 1986, he killed one of his friends, a very close friend to him. And he punished him one day. And that guy goes to talking about his cruelty. So, when he heard that, he decided to liquidate him by a very rude way.

CHUNG: We know that Uday killed. We also know that he kidnapped young women and that he tortured prisoners. And you, sir, were a victim of that torture.

AL-JANABI: You know, it was about nine times he sent me to jail as a punishment. Through these nine times, three times, they tortured me. They flogged me on my back with cables. And they forced me to run about two hours, only 15 minutes rest, for about 12 hours a day. And this goes for about three days.

CHUNG: Why?

AL-JANABI: At that time, I was the editor in chief of "Babil" newspaper. And, during the war, 1991, I wrote an article criticizing the way of transportation inside Iraq.

And when he read this -- of course, this was published in the newspaper. When he read this, he say, "You are a traitor because you are revealing a military secret." What is the military secret?

You know, after I had been punished and tortured, I met him after about three days, after I have been tortured, and he says: "I'm sorry. The punishment was very severe and doesn't -- you did not deserve to be punished like this," a kind of -- he started to be very cordial with me. But, of course, I got the flogs on my back. And this was a very, very tough in fact experience.

CHUNG: Very quickly, sir, is there any chance, do you believe, that Uday will take power after Saddam Hussein?

AL-JANABI: To me, I think the situation is changing inside Iraq. And everything shows or can be showing that Qusay, the second son, will be the heir apparent. And this is because Uday now is crippled. He has what they call fallen fruit. He cannot walk like a human being. And this is because two bullets broke his leg.

CHUNG: Yes.

AL-JANABI: And I think the beginning of his being expelled from -- or not expelled, in fact ruled out from being the heir apparent is this time.

CHUNG: I thank you so much for being with us. We have to run.

Abbas Al-Janabi, thank you again for giving us a look behind those closed doors in the Iraqi regime.

And when we come back: She has hit the big time at the age of 6.

Still ahead: She makes it look so easy. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE PIJOR SHOW")

INOBE: Hello.

SIMONE: Hello.

INOBE: How you doing?

SIMONE: Fine.

What does Inobe mean?

INOBE: Inobe is my name backwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Leno, Letterman, Regis, look out. Jamia is here.

We'll meet her when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: You're about to meet an extraordinary talent.

Come here, Jamia.

A singer...

And can you read with me? What does that say? Go ahead.

A singer...

SIMONE: A singer who...

CHUNG: Parlayed.

SIMONE: Parlayed her powerful voice into a gig as co-host of a weekly...

CHUNG: Variety.

SIMONE: Variety show. She's owned the stage at the...

CHUNG: Legendary.

SIMONE: Legendary Apollo Theater. And just last week, she was on "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno," all that at the ripe old age of 6.

CHUNG: Thank you for coming. It's so nice to have you.

All right, let's start from the beginning, OK?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: When did you start walking? SIMONE: Seven months.

CHUNG: Seven months? Are you kidding?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: Is that true, dad?

JAMES NASH, FATHER OF JAMIA: Seven months.

CHUNG: Oh, that's amazing.

And when did you start talking?

SIMONE: When I was...

NASH: Two.

CHUNG: And when did you start singing?

SIMONE: When I was 2 years old.

CHUNG: Is that right? Amazing.

Did you take singing lessons?

SIMONE: No.

CHUNG: Not any?

SIMONE: No.

CHUNG: So, I understand you won a talent competition, yes?

SIMONE: Yes.

NASH: Yes, she took a few.

CHUNG: And then you got to perform somewhere.

SIMONE: At the Apollo.

CHUNG: Yes. And what do you think of the Apollo?

SIMONE: The Apollo is great. And it's big.

CHUNG: Had you ever seen the show before?

SIMONE: Yes, on Saturdays.

CHUNG: Oh. And did you ever say to yourself, "Man, I'd love to be there?"

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: Well, could you believe it when you actually got there and were able to sing before all those people?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: Do you think that you are famous?

SIMONE: I'm famous. And I like being famous.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: All right.

Well, you know what? I was wondering -- I'll ask you some more questions in a minute. But would you mind singing a song for me? That's OK?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: OK. All right.

You know how to use that, right?

OK, go ahead.

SIMONE (singing): Loving you, darling, makes me so confused. I keep on falling in and out love with you. I never loved someone the way that I love you. Oh, oh, oh!

CHUNG: Oh! You go, girl!

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Give me five. That was excellent.

SIMONE: Thank you.

CHUNG: Now, tell me about school. What's your favorite subject?

SIMONE: My subject is reading.

CHUNG: Favorite, all-time favorite. I know what you mean. It's good that you like to read.

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: Because you are going to learn so much.

So, what would you like to be when you grow up next year?

(LAUGHTER)

SIMONE: I want to be a TV star.

CHUNG: Actually, you're already a TV star, right, because you do a talk show.

SIMONE: Yes. CHUNG: And my husband does a talk show, too, you know? But I'm not sure if he's as good as you are.

We're going to take a look at a clip, OK?

SIMONE: OK.

CHUNG: OK. Look at the monitor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE PIJOR SHOW")

CHRIS PIGORS, HOST: Welcome back to "The Pijor Show." I'm your host, Chris Pigors.

SIMONE: And I'm Jamia Simone.

PIGORS: And today we have with us Inobe.

INOBE: Hello.

SIMONE: Hello.

INOBE: How you doing?

SIMONE: Fine.

What does Inobe mean?

INOBE: Inobe is my name backwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Do you like interviewing people?

SIMONE: Yes. It's fun.

CHUNG: Yes?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: How do you think up the questions?

SIMONE: I just read questions to them. And I ask questions to the media people and singers.

CHUNG: So they help you with the questions and you...

SIMONE: No. No, I know all the words.

CHUNG: I see.

SIMONE: But when I read hard words, I don't know all of it.

CHUNG: I understand. I understand.

Now, you were recently on "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno." When you went on, how did you feel?

SIMONE: I felt great when I went to "THE TONIGHT SHOW," because, when we went there, it was exciting. And I couldn't wait to get on there and do my show. So it was exciting.

CHUNG: Good.

We have a clip of that, too, OK?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: Should we show it?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: Good. OK. Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO")

JAY LENO, HOST: Can you show us a little bit of the Harlem shake?

(CHEERING & APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: That's great.

Dad, do you want her to be just out there, a big star? Because I would worry a little.

NASH: At first I started to worry.

I do want it for her, because she wants it. She's been telling me since she was 2 years old that she wanted to be a superstar. And, as she got older, we backed off and we waited, because, obviously, she didn't just start singing. But we wanted to wait until she told us and we felt that she knew what she was doing as far as singing and wanting to be in the spotlight.

We pursued it. And we know exactly what we are getting into, to a certain extent. We don't know how large it's going to be. So the fear in that, not really. A lot of prayer and everything will be all right.

CHUNG: She doesn't love television too much, does she?

SIMONE: I do.

CHUNG: You do.

I'm just going to ask you one more question. If you had one wish, what would it be?

SIMONE: It would be, I want to go to Los Angeles again.

CHUNG: Really? And what would you do if you went there?

SIMONE: I would just go see the mountains and just climb on there with my daddy.

CHUNG: All right, thank you so much for being with us, Jamia.

SIMONE: You're welcome.

CHUNG: Will you come back and see me sometime?

SIMONE: Yes.

CHUNG: OK?

SIMONE: OK.

CHUNG: OK.

Thanks, dad.

NASH: Thank you so much.

CHUNG: Thank you.

NASH: I appreciate it.

CHUNG: OK. Now read this right up here. See it?

SIMONE: Thank you, Jamia and James Nash.

We'll be right back.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Good job.

SIMONE: You're welcome.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Tomorrow: one of the biggest spy cases in American history. You'll get inside the mind of Robert Hanssen, through his best friend, through his psychiatrist, and the stripper he took on vacation.

Plus, you met the man who says his near-comatose wife should be taken off life support. Tomorrow, you'll meet her parents, who have taken the battle to court to keep her alive.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": rare interviews with Pierce Brosnan and Halle Berry.

From all of us at CNN, have a good night and we'll see you tomorrow.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

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