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CNN TALKBACK LIVE

Does Evidence Back Up the al Qaeda-Hussein Connection?; Can Congress Take Politics Out of the Debate Over War With Iraq?

Aired September 26, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Imagine what would happen if Osama bin Laden teamed up with Saddam Hussein? Well the White House has been painting that very scary scenario lately. But is there any evidence to back it up? We will ask the experts.

Also, the debate over war turns into a political war on Capitol Hill. We will talk to a congresswoman that says she knows how we can take politics out of the debate over war with Iraq.

Then stay tuned as we examine whether schools are helping kids get hooked on drugs. Are we over-medicating our kids with Ritalin?

And then, sending Saddam into exile. Who wants to? Who would take him? And would he go?

But first, though, we are going to talk about who is playing politics with war. Yesterday, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle accused the Bush administration of doing just that.

Here to talk about it are Representative Ellen Tauscher, California Democrat, and Congressman John Mica, a Florida Republican -- welcome to both of you.

REP. ELLEN TAUSCHER (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you.

REP. JOHN MICA (R), FLORIDA: Welcome.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, before we get started, let's take a listen to a little bit of what Senator Daschle had to say late yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: This is a little politicization pure and simple. I meant it this morning and I mean it now. I don't know what may have motivated those in the White House to make the decision to politicize this debate, but it's got to stop. And there is no context within which anybody can make that accusation about people on this side of the aisle on an issue relating to homeland security or Iraq or defense or anything else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: OK. Congresswoman Tauscher, you say you have a solution to take politics out of the debate. Would you tell us what it is?

TAUSCHER: Well I think the most important thing for us to do is to concentrate on a serious and sober debate about the potential to have disarmament in Iraq. And that it may be the inevitable thing that Saddam Hussein cannot curb his voracious appetite for weapons of mass destruction and he may have to be removed.

I think that the most important thing for us to do is to have that serious, sober debate in a nonpolitical time. We are 40 days from a planned congressional election. All members of the House are up; a third of the Senate is up.

We have 50 House members, over 10 percent of the House, retiring on November 5. And I think we can certainly delay this vote well past the election where we do not have a political atmosphere, where it is not possible to gauge how good someone is on national security, and where people can take the vote by measuring their conscience, their constituents and the constitution.

NEVILLE: OK. Congressman, I would like to ask you if you think that would help take politics out of this -- pardon me sir, I need to go ahead and toss to Nebraska, where there is a news conference taking place now on a bank robbery that took place there this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a black hawk helicopter up in the air. I consider this to be a state emergency and will continue to consider it a state emergency until the individuals are apprehended.

So, we could assist in that way. The state helicopter because of the ceilings today was not really the best piece of equipment. So a black hawk did go up in the air, and I think literally as I speak it is still there.

I have visited with the mayor on a couple of occasions. He is en route. He was actually at conference, and so we are going to sit down in the next few minutes. He may even join us in this news conference, but I indicated to him that he we wanted to do everything we could to support his community and support the efforts.

I have some individuals here today that are far better equipped to give you an update on what is transpiring and offer you as much information as they can. I have the chief of police, Bill Misner (ph). I'm going to ask Bill to speak first.

Then we have the state patrol Captain Brad Rice (ph). Brad will follow him up.

We hope to be joined at some point here by a representative of the FBI, James Bogner (ph). And then, of course, the county attorney, Joe Smith (ph), is here. And I think he would be willing to answer questions to the extent that he is able at this point.

One last comment I would make is that even though this is an ongoing issue as we speak, I can't tell you how impressed I am by the work of the county attorney's office, the law enforcement people. This part of the state is well represented and their coordination from the very first moments of this event has been truly unbelievable and a real asset to the investigation.

So with that, what I'd like to do is invite the chief up and he can bring you up to date. And then our state patrol, and hopefully an FBI representative. And then I will have a couple of comments, if I might, to wrap things up before we go to questions -- Chief.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a listing of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) network. This is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, governor. I know there are a number of you who were not here during the first two press briefings that we had. I will try to give you a brief review of some of the information that we covered. And then I will ask Captain Rice (ph) if he will come up and share some information with you as well.

We received a call this morning at 8:47. I know there was some confusion about the actual time. At 8:47 we received the first call advising us that there was a bank robbery at the U.S. Bank at 13th and Paswalk (ph).

We received additional calls thereafter advising that shots had been fired. We had another call that there were individuals down in the bank. Officers responded, investigators responded, we were able to secure the building.

As the investigation progressed, very shortly after we arrived, we received information that individuals had been seen running down the alley away from the bank. We entered the facility, we were able to determine that there were indeed people down. After a short time, investigators determined that there were five individuals who had been shot and killed at this scene. There were four who were employees; there was one who was a customer in the bank at that time.

Additional investigation indicated there was another individual, a customer who had been at the bank at that time, who was also shot and was wounded. That individual has been treated and released as of this point.

There were also -- I should say the individuals, from what our investigation tells us, proceeded to a residence, they entered the residence, confronted the people inside. They took a vehicle from that residence.

That vehicle is a 2003 white Subaru. And they left the residence in that vehicle. Our search has centered on that particular vehicle.

I should tell you that -- well I guess I don't need to tell you, because you already know. In fact, some of you have been telling us. We have reports that there are some individuals who are in custody in O'Neill (ph). And there have been some questions about whether or not these individuals are the individuals who were involved in our crime here in Norfolk.

I can tell you that we have investigators from the FBI, state patrol and the Norfolk Police division en route at this moment to O'Neill (ph) to try to determine whether or not these individuals had anything to do with the events this morning here in Norfolk. We do not know at this time, and it will be some time before we are able to actually confirm whether or not they actually were involved.

I would also like to say before I turn it over to Captain Rice (ph), as always, we are very, very pleased with the response by area law enforcement agencies, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) state patrol, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) county sheriff's office. The moment that the call went out and our dispatchers did a general broadcast, they were there about as quick as you can imagine. I mean very quickly.

And they cooperated; they said, What can we do to help?" And that is always been the hallmark of law enforcement here in northeast Nebraska.

The FBI responded immediately, and they are working the robbery aspect and we are working the homicide aspect. And there has been nothing but cooperation.

And if this case is solved -- and I have every reason to believe that we will identify those people and we will take them into custody, whatever it takes -- it will be in no small part to the cooperation that's been exhibited by all the law enforcement agencies who are here. And I want to publicly thank them for their assistance, because we couldn't do it without them helping us out.

NEVILLE: OK. We've been listening to authorities in Norfolk, Nebraska, a city where a fatal bank robbery took place this morning. Five people killed, three robbers still at large. Officials think those suspects may be detained in another city. Details to follow.

Keep it tuned to CNN and we will keep you updated on that story.

In the meantime, I want to go back to Congressman Mica. I was going to ask you what you thought of your colleague's suggestion to hold off on a vote on the resolution until after the November 5 election, which, in fact, might take politics out of this debate on the war or possible war with Iraq.

MICA: Well I think that would absolutely be not completing our constitutional responsibilities. I think it is absolutely essential that the Congress act, that we back the president.

He is the only one that has the specific information about the threat to the United States. I think we should act and should have acted by this time.

NEVILLE: Sir, do you believe that your party has been guilty of playing politics?

MICA: Oh, absolutely not. In fact, I think it was -- I think it was Vice President Gore on Monday who started some of this. And then Mr. Daschle responded actually to the comments of a "Washington Post" story, where they put democrat-controlled Senate before the comments that the president had made. And he took offense to that and it was wrong. We should be rallying behind the president in the United States at this time, taking this vote, not waiting for the United Nations. Saddam Hussein has already killed thousands of his own people, and Tony Blair confirmed the other day...

NEVILLE: Sir, if I may...

MICA: ... he had the ability to launch an attack in 45 minutes.

NEVILLE: And on that note, sir, I want to get your colleague in there.

Congresswoman Tauscher, what do you think about that, the idea of waiting? I understand your perspective of waiting in terms of possibly extracting politics out of the procedure, but maybe time is not on the side of the U.S.

TAUSCHER: Well, think about 1990. Think about Saddam Hussein in 1990 in the summer invading Kuwait. Think about the fact that the world community joined together. That there were numerous U.N. resolutions passed in the spring -- I'm sorry, in the summer and the fall.

And then, President Bush, 41, and Bob Dole, who at the time was the Senate Majority Leader, were sitting there facing the November 1990 election. And we were clearly going to war; we had mobilized hundreds of thousands of troops, we had allies, and they chose to wait until January, after the elections, so that the vote was not politicized.

I do not really see what the difference here is. We know that Saddam Hussein has a voracious appetite for weapons of mass destruction. We know that this is the political season with 40 days to go to the election. This is the most serious vote that members of Congress need to take.

We have many questions still; we are working on the diplomacy piece. I really believe before we declare war that the president needs to tell us that diplomacy has failed.

We are supporting the president. This is part of the democratic process. But we should do everything we can to remove partisan politics away from this. And we should do everything we can to focus the members of Congress on what is important, and that is buying (ph) down the risk for our fighting men and women, making sure that the war on terrorism is our primary focus, and that this new front, Iraq, doesn't hurt our chances of prosecuting the war on terrorism.

But we have a multinational coalition. That we're doing all the things we need to do to build coalitions...

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

TAUSCHER: And frankly, the president needs to build a coalition between the two ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, of the Congress and the American people and his administration on this effort. We have plenty of time to do it.

NEVILLE: Well of course this debate will continue, and we, of course, will keep a watch out to see what happens next week.

Representatives Tauscher and Mica, thank you very much for joining me this afternoon.

TAUSCHER: Thank you.

MICA: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK.

Now joining me is Jim Walsh, a political scientist and research fellow at the Belford (ph) Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University. Welcome, sir.

JIM WALSH, MIDEAST EXPERT: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: You know this debate is going to continue. And what I asked you up front is, what do you think it would take to convince skeptics that the concerns, the U.S. administration's concerns that there is a possible -- or is a link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda? To prove that this is more than smoke and mirrors.

WALSH: Well I think what we need is evidence. That's always what we need. You know we had an alert a couple of weeks ago when we moved the national alert system from brown to orange. And when government officials came out and they made that change, they offered specific evidence for making that change.

They mentioned dates; they mentioned likely targets. They talked about it being corroborated by other sources of intelligence. Well we need that sort of same level of evidence if we are going to conclude that somehow there is a collusion between al Qaeda and between Saddam Hussein in the area of chemical weapons.

Why do we need that evidence? Because, as it stands, that sort of cooperation runs in the face of everything we know about Saddam Hussein, about Osama bin Laden, and about the history of weapons of mass destruction and the relationship between governments and terrorists.

So we need evidence, and so far we have not gone any.

NEVILLE: And do you think we will ever get it.

WALSH: Well, in principle there's no reason why, if it exists, we should not be able to hear about it, but I think it's going to be pretty hard to find. Why? Well, first of all, Osama bin Laden hates Saddam Hussein's guts. Osama bin Laden wants to replace all of the governments in the Middle East with clerics, with religious regimes like the Taliban.

Saddam is not a cleric, he's not a religious fundamentalist. He's a secular nationalist. He's an army guy who took power in a coup and runs it as a socialist state.

He wants to topple Saddam as much as we do. And, on the other hand, Saddam has no love for Osama bin Laden. And so...

NEVILLE: Right. You know what? I think there's a lady, Kimberly (ph), here in the audience, who wants to jump in on what you just said.

KIMBERLY: Osama bin Laden and Saddam hate each other. Saddam...

NEVILLE: So this makes no sense to you is what you're saying?

KIMBERLY: No, it doesn't, because bin Laden looks at Saddam as the whole reason that the American people are even in the Middle East and have taken up residency in the holy city. And that's is whole reason for hating America, really, is we have desecrated, in his opinion, the holy land of the Islamic religion.

If we left, then there wouldn't be half the problem that there is right now.

NEVILLE: Jim Walsh, before you go, of course now the Bush administration is saying that there has been contact between senior Iraqi officials and the al Qaeda network for about a decade now. So I ask if you happen to know when the Bush administration became aware of that and how.

WALSH: Well, you know if there was a strong link between al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, my guess is we would have seen it by now. That evidence would have been presented because the president has been trying to make a case for invasion for quite some time now.

Remember al Qaeda is really a name that covers a loose affiliation of people. Kashmiris interested in liberating Kashmir, Chechnyans, Egyptians, Saudis, people in Southeast Asia. So it is certainly conceivable that some operative of some cause had meetings with Saddam Hussein.

But the notion that the top leadership of bin Laden and al Zuwahari (ph) and Saddam Hussein would somehow get together is I think a strange plausibility. Is it impossible? No.

And one of the things that people worry about is that by declaring war on both at the same time you may force a marriage of convenience. You may get two people who don't like each other very much, would just as soon that each other were killed, to cooperate. So that's one of the issues here, is that that cooperation shouldn't be expected. But we also don't want to do anything that forces cooperation that wouldn't otherwise take place.

NEVILLE: Jim Walsh, thank you very much for you perspective. Thanks a lot for being with us here today.

WALSH: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK. Listen, we're going to take a break right now. And then find out, are we over-medicating our kids? A congressional committee is looking into just that. One mother had an extraordinary story to tell, and we're going to hear that after the break. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody, I'm Arthel Neville.

Are kids being over-medicated with Ritalin, and are teachers telling parents to drug their children? That's the question before a congressional committee taking testimony today.

Now much of the testimony centered on Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder and whether it is over or under diagnosed. And whether drugging children is the right prescription. Listen to what this mother told the panel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICIA WEATHERS, WITNESS: I could no longer recognize my own son. Fearing what these drugs had done to him, I stopped them. Through this whole ordeal the school psychologist's favorite saying was that it was trial and error. If one drug did not work, try another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: There are a lot of drugs involved.

Now Weathers also says that the school even threatened to have her son removed from the home when she finally took the boy off drugs.

Here to talk about ADHD and Ritalin treatments, Dr. Lawrence Diller, a pediatrician and author of, "Should I medicate my child?" Good question.

Also, Dr. David Fassler, a child and adolescent psychiatrist. He testified today at that hearing. Welcome, doctors.

DR. LAWRENCE DILLER, AUTHOR, "SHOULD I MEDICATE MY CHILD?": Thank you very much.

DAVID FASSLER, CHILD PSYCHIATRIST: Hi.

NEVILLE: Dr. Diller, let's address some basics right up front. First of all, what is Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder? What are the symptoms of ADHD, and how do you treat it?

DILLER: Well, you know in the six or so minutes we have to talk about this I want to cut to the chase...

NEVILLE: Please. DILLER: ... and say right away that the problem is there is no specific way to diagnose it. We diagnose it more in this country than in anywhere else. We use 80 percent of the world's stimulants.

That said, Ritalin has a place, it does work. But it isn't a substitute. It isn't the substitute for helping parents parent better and helping teachers teach better. And that's unfortunately what's happening across the country.

NEVILLE: So, having said that, can you answer -- I know that currently there is no objective diagnostic tool to treat this disorder but, again, you have parents watching. You know, I mean kids tend to get antsy. That's a natural thing. But how do I know that my child doesn't have this?

DILLER: But this is not a diagnosis that can be arrived at in a 20 to 30-minute visit with the doctor. Unfortunately, there are lots of economic pressures on the doctors and the teachers to make the diagnosis quickly. So if I had to give the parents one or two comments on how to come up with some reasonable decision-making process here, is, first of all, insist on an valuation that should take a couple of hours from that doctor. And I'd also insist that you bring your husband along. Because having fathers involved make a big difference in the evaluation.

NEVILLE: Help me understand that.

DILLER: Well, you know the thing is very often the teacher has the complaint, she calls the mother up, the mother then takes the child to the doctor, the doctor never talks to the teacher and never talks to the father, barely talks to the kid. They fill out some checklist and the kid is on medication. The kid has never had a decent educational evaluation. We do not know very much about how the child is being dealt with at home.

And I know Dr. Fassler is going to say, well we need better evaluation; we need better diagnostics. It's not going to happen, Arthel, because doctors do not pay attention to guidelines issued by organizations. They pay attention, like everybody else, to their pocketbook and the threat of suits.

And now this lady is suing the doctor. That may get other doctors' attention. Otherwise, nothing is going to change.

NEVILLE: Well let me get Dr. Fassler in here and give him a chance to respond.

FASTLER: Well, first of all, in terms of speaking to parents, ADHD is a medical condition that involves problems with attention, hyperactivity and impulsivity. And I know that Dr. Diller and I actually agree on a lot of things. And the bottom line is, if your child is having problems, problems in school, problems at home, problems with their friends, get an evaluation.

And parents really need to be advocates for their kids. They've got to get a clinician, whether it's a pediatrician a child psychologist, a psychologist, a social worker. Get to someone who really knows what they're doing and have a good evaluation. Because the good news is that we can really help most of these kids.

NEVILLE: But, doctor, how do you know what's a good evaluation versus a bad one? You wouldn't know.

FASSLER: Well like Dr. Diller said, you can't do these evaluations in a five or a 10 or a 15-minute office visit. It will usually take several hours. It involves looking at the child's history, understanding the family, looking at what's happening in school. And we really need to push those evaluations.

I would agree with Dr. Diller, without those evaluations, we shouldn't be jumping right to treatment.

NEVILLE: OK. Listen, hang on for me, sir. I have Brooke (ph) here in the audience, who would like to speak out.

BROOKE: Yes, I'm a clinical nurse psychologist and I just wanted to, you know, echo what you're saying. There are empirically validated methods for assessing and diagnosing ADHD. And we need to make sure that pediatricians, as you said, that don't have the time to take to do a thorough evaluation, are referring to the appropriate sources.

DILLER: Can I get a word in here quickly?

NEVILLE: Please, go ahead.

DILLER: The trouble is this: it's not so simple, even with a longer evaluation. We have, in my office, Tom Sawyers and Huckleberry Finns coming into my office and there are problems at school. And I think we're focusing a little bit too much often on the children's brain and not enough between what the school is doing, in terms of a decent educational evaluation...

NEVILLE: I've got to jump in here, sir, because I'm short on time here.

DILLER: OK.

NEVILLE: Let me see. Maybe, Brooke (ph), you can answer this, because I want to talk about medication. That's the whole idea. At what point do you turn to medication?

BROOKE: I think after you've talked to all the constituencies: the parents, the teachers, the schools, the child, the pediatrician, a good medical work up. And then you may start Ritalin, and it works very well for many kids.

FASSLER: Precisely.

NEVILLE: Once you take it, do you have to always take it?

BROOKE: I think monitoring and reevaluation is necessary.

NEVILLE: OK, listen. I'm sorry. Unfortunately we're out of time here.

FASSLER: Well thank you very much.

NEVILLE: Drs. Diller and Fassler, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

FASSLER: Thank you -- good night.

DILLER: Bye-bye.

NEVILLE: Great. I'm Arthel Neville and I will be back here tomorrow with more TALKBACK LIVE.

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Can Congress Take Politics Out of the Debate Over War With Iraq?>

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