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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT

Is Saddam Successfully Stalling an Invasion?; How to Safeguard Children From Nerve Gas Attacks

Aired September 17, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: Has Saddam Hussein already succeeding in stalling an invasion?

ANNOUNCER: Back to Iraq without conditions: Saddam says U.N. inspectors can return to Iraq in search of weapons of mass destruction. But is he to be believed?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have seen this game before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Will inspectors find what they're looking for? Tonight: A former U.N. nuclear inspection chief tells Connie what the inspectors will do when they hit the ground in Baghdad.

Would your kids survive a nerve gas attack?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. GEORGE FOLTIN, BELLEVUE MEDICAL CENTER: For every minute that goes by, there will be some who will not survive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Seconds can mean the difference between life and death. How prepared is the U.S. to protect its children? Some say not enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JOSEPH HAGAN, AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS: A nerve gas attack that affected a day care center would be a horrible event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: CNN's Deborah Feyerick on children at risk.

Startling figures from Enron: Former employees lose their shirts. And that's not all. Now it's the men of Enron baring it all.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung. CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight: U.N. Inspectors and Iraqi officials have agreed to meet next week in Vienna to hammer out the final details for their return to Iraqi territory. Nevertheless, President Bush today called on the U.N. not to be fooled by Saddam Hussein's offer to let inspectors search his country for nuclear and biochemical weapons facilities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a man who has delayed, denied, deceived the world. For the sake of liberty and justice for all, the United Nations Security Council must act, must act in a way to hold this regime to account.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Assuming the U.N. and Iraq work out the details of their meeting next week, just what can the inspectors realistically expect to accomplish? What obstacles will the inspectors encounter once they finally get to Iraq?

Joining me now from Washington is a man who knows full well what the job entails. David Kay was the U.N.'s chief nuclear weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1993.

Welcome, sir. We appreciate your being with us.

DAVID KAY, FORMER U.N. CHIEF NUCLEAR WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Happy to be with you, Connie.

CHUNG: Mr. Kay, we had seven years of cat-and-mouse inspections in Iraq. And we were not able to find certainly everything. What would it take to do the job properly?

KAY: Well, first of all, what it would take would be an Iraqi regime committed to revealing the truth, to stopping its concealment efforts and stopping its deception. Absent that, the role of the inspectors and what they can accomplish is, quite frankly, very limited.

CHUNG: So, if you're -- if the last inspection process included 40 inspectors and two helicopters, what would you say would be the minimum to get out there and do the job?

KAY: I think, if you want to have a hope of covering a country that's twice the size of the state of Idaho, you certainly need at least 1,000 inspection personnel in the country and you probably need close to 100 helicopters, capable of moving anywhere at any time to surprise the Iraqis, to in fact force them to admit that they are trying to conceal their activities, or we'll really have a confrontation yet again with them, as I expect would happen.

CHUNG: Is that going to happen, though? Are there going to be 1,000 inspectors and 100 helicopters?

KAY: Well, it certainly doesn't sound like it, at the pace the U.N. is moving today.

I certainly hope that, as the Security Council faces a resolution, that they really recognize their responsibility, because, after all, what is at stake is the reputation of the U.N. Security Council, not just weapons in Iraq. And I thought the president made that rather clear last week.

CHUNG: Do you believe that Saddam must be confident that he has hidden enough facilities in order for him to say, "All right, bring your inspectors in"?

KAY: He's confident enough to do it in the face of overwhelming military action.

We've seen this cheat-and-retreat attitude really since before the inspectors. It was part and parcel of Iraqi diplomacy from after the invasion in 1990 until the Gulf War itself started. When they face overwhelming military action, they decide to try to concede, try to involve the U.N. and delay, delay, delay, knowing that the fear -- the prospect of military action will probably fade if it doesn't take place when it is threatened.

CHUNG: And how easy is it for him to hide facilities?

KAY: It's extraordinarily easy.

Remember, he's had four years without any inspectors there harassing him, trying to force into facilities where they suspect things are being hid. He's miniaturized, mobilized, made biological weapons facilities, for example, road-mobile. He's moved things underground. He's moved them into facilities that are inherently difficult to inspect: mosques, universities, private residences, all the places inspectors really have a great deal of problem going into.

CHUNG: In fact, when you were there, there were times when you were going in the front door and they were going out the back door.

KAY: Absolutely. That was more the norm than the exception during my years there.

CHUNG: And, very quickly, can you describe for us that incident in 1991? It was a standoff. You and your team of 40 were kept in a parking lot, held captive for four days.

KAY: Well, what really happened is, we had -- we were lucky.

We had good intelligence that indicated the Iraqis had moved documentation of their nuclear weapons program. And the reason documents were so important is because, for scientists, you can deal with the technical issues. But much like white-collar crime, if you could get the documents, the weapons-design information, the invoices from foreign suppliers for his nuclear program, you could make that abundantly clear to the world.

We succeeded in surprising the Iraqis, seizing the documents. And when we did, the Iraqis said: "So sorry. You can't leave with the documents." And we said: "So sorry. If we can't leave with the documents, we're going to stay here until we can leave."

CHUNG: And in fact you did.

Sir, one final question, and it's something that we started with. And that is, can these inspections work? Or are you basically telling us that Saddam has to go in order for any of these inspections, really, to reach fruition, to work?

KAY: If your objective is ending his weapons of mass destruction, not simply carrying out inspections, then inspections cannot achieve that final objective as long as he continues to conceal, deceive and otherwise hide his program. Inspectors can harass, can slow down, can make the process much more expensive for the Iraqis. But they cannot eliminate his weapons.

Now, if your point is just to carry out inspections, sure, you can do that without threatening Saddam and without much trouble, actually.

CHUNG: All right, an exercise in futility, I assume.

KAY: I'm afraid so.

CHUNG: David Kay, thank you so much. We appreciate your being with us.

KAY: Thank you.

CHUNG: And so, has Saddam Hussein's offer cut President Bush's legs out from under him? Russia today said Saddam's offer means there's no need for a new U.N. resolution against Iraq. And Russia has a veto in the U.N. Security Council.

In the U.S., Saddam's offer had little impact on either side of the aisle in the Senate. Earlier, I spoke with two senators from both parties. Both men serve on one of the most pivotal committees weighing in on this issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Joining me now, two members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence: Indiana Democratic Senator Evan Bayh and Ohio Republican Senator Mike DeWine.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us.

SEN. MIKE DEWINE (R), OHIO: Thank you Connie.

SEN. EVEN BAYH (D), INDIANA: Thank you, Connie.

CHUNG: Senator Bayh, first with you.

Doesn't Iraq's offer to allow weapons inspectors in suggest to you that they feel confident that they can hide the weapons necessary to sort of pull the wool over the eyes of the world?

BAYH: Connie, I think that's exactly what it means.

We've been down this path before, playing hide-and-seek with Hussein. He'll do whatever it takes. He'll hide. He'll lie. He's obfuscate. And I frankly wouldn't put much confidence in our ability to find out what he has there. And the risks of not finding it are simply too great to tolerate.

CHUNG: Senator DeWine, would you say that the United States is clearly just moving forward with talk of war, with invading Iraq, regardless of what Saddam Hussein claims or promises?

DEWINE: What I would say is that we are not -- I agree with Evan. We are not just going to take this man's word for it. We've been down that road before.

The only inspections that really would matter would be unfettered inspections, which basically would mean that he would allow inspectors in with full rights to go any place any time.

CHUNG: But that's not going to happen, is it?

DEWINE: And really, in a sense, he would give up his sovereignty.

No, it's not going to happen.

CHUNG: It's not going to happen.

DEWINE: But I think we have to go through this process.

We do live in a world of law. And the United Nations has these resolutions. And this is the proper course to follow. But is Saddam Hussein going to do this? I think we all pretty much know that he's not going to do it.

CHUNG: Senator Bayh, how long is this scenario going to play out?

BAYH: Connie, that's a good question. And we don't really know the answer to that yet.

I assume the president will allow the United Nations and our allies a decent interval here to reach the right conclusion about what needs to be done. But, at the end of the day, we can't give anybody else -- as much as we would like their support, we can't give anybody else a veto over doing what's in the best interests of the United States in terms of national security.

Connie, I was going to mention one thing. We know that he has harbored terrorists. We know that he has obtained chemical and biological weapons in the past, probably has them again now. We know he's desperately trying to get nuclear weapons. We know that perhaps he's even offered some rudimentary training in biological and chemical weapons to terrorist organizations in the past. We know all of that.

But as dangerous as that is, what we don't know may be even more troubling. We're dealing with a lot of uncertainty here. And the prospect that he could have even gone further down this path is very troubling.

CHUNG: Senator DeWine, do you believe that the United States will ultimately go it alone?

DEWINE: Well, I certainly hope not. And I don't think that we will have to.

But, in answer to your question that you asked Senator Bayh, if we have to do it, we'll have to do it. We will do whatever we have to do. The president as commander in chief and this Congress and the American people will take whatever action they have to take to keep us safe.

CHUNG: Senator DeWine, Senator Bayh, thank you for being with us tonight.

BAYH: Thank you Connie.

DEWINE: Thanks, Connie.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And on the home front, New York state: The six men accused of helping al Qaeda will be in court tomorrow for a hearing on whether they should be set free before their trial. And tonight, CNN has obtained a new glimpse into the history of one of those men.

CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti is on the story tonight in Buffalo.

Susan, investigators are still looking for two of the eight. They've already taken custody of six of them. What can you tell us about the two remaining?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The two remaining, Connie, are -- one is somewhat more important than the other.

The two names are Kamal Derwish and Jaber Elbaneh. Now, they're both U.S. citizens, both allegedly also attended training camps in Afghanistan. But what makes one of the two stand out, according to government officials -- and that's Mr. Derwish -- they say that he played probably more of a central role in all of this. They're calling him and characterized him as a recruiter, someone they say who worked apparently for al Qaeda, they believe, both in the United States and overseas.

And, according to the FBI affidavit already filed in court, Derwish, it turns out, according to the FBI, helped make the travel arrangements for those who are accused once they got over to Pakistan and then Afghanistan. And then he helped them make their way over to the camps. He's also, according to the FBI, someone who received special -- for example, special training, special weapons training in anti-aircraft guns, that kind of thing, over in the camps.

CHUNG: Now, Susan, I know you have some chilling information about al-Bakri, who was arrested in Bahrain over the weekend.

CANDIOTTI: That's right.

According to, again, government officials, evidently, not too long ago, they -- intelligence agents in Bahrain intercepted a communication between al-Bakri and someone else. And, in so many words, al-Bakri said: "Goodbye. This is the last time you're going to hear from me." This was apparently upsetting, according to translators, about the tone that he was using, exactly what he meant.

And so CNN has learned that this was a key reason why the FBI decided to move forward with the investigation, and roll out those arrest warrants, and begin to pick people up over the weekend, because, they told CNN, they were very concerned about what exactly this might have meant, emphasizing that the FBI says it has no evidence of any plans in the making, that any of these people were involved, when to carry out an attack in the United States or anywhere else.

CHUNG: And you have also gotten some video of one of the men who is in custody now. What can you tell us about that video?

CANDIOTTI: Well, to put it in context, you know that you've been hearing from people throughout the week and over the weekend, residents of Lackawanna who know many if not all of these men who are accused of providing material support to al Qaeda.

And to the person, they say they can't believe that these people would be capable of such a thing. And so, in that context, this videotape became available of one of the men who stands accused by the name of Sahim Alwan. He is a counselor for the Job Corps program for disadvantaged youth. And here he is talking to a group of graduates. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAHIM ALWANA, ALLEGED AL QAEDA MEMBER: Really, trust me when I tell you this. What this country has to offer is so much opportunity for many of us to just disregard them and not take advantage of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: So this, authorities -- or, rather, his friends say is a side that they know of Sahim Alwan, someone who is very kind and very peaceful, and wouldn't do anything to harm anyone.

On the other hand, the government says that it is Mr. Alwan -- they don't call him a key player, government officials don't, our sources tell us. In fact, they say that he acknowledged to them that he attended a terror training camp and gave them a number of other names of other people who did too. Nevertheless, he is one of the men who are charged with attending those training camps -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, Susan, thank you. Tomorrow, I know there's a bond hearing. And you'll be following that for us, I'm sure. Thank you, Susan Candiotti. Still ahead: What does George Bush really think of Saddam Hussein? We're talking about George Bush the father.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: What if the U.S. is hit with a terrorist nerve gas attack? Adults are protected, but what about your children?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOLTIN: Children and infants are more vulnerable to nerve gases than adults.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A CNN investigation when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Since September 11, the U.S. has been ramping up its response to all kinds of terror attacks, elaborate plans, including how to handle nerve gas. It's a threat where minutes, if not seconds make the difference between life and death. But how prepared are we really to treat our children?

HAGAN: We're probably not very well prepared. A nerve gas attack that affected a day care center would be a horrible event.

FEYERICK: The reason? Life-saving drugs packaged for grownups cannot be used on children, especially the very young.

FOLTIN: Below age 8, there are no protocols or guidelines anywhere in the country that would allow the use of adult auto- injectors on those children, because that would be considered to be overdosing them.

FEYERICK: auto-injectors are high-speed shots ready-made with an adult dose of nerve gas antidote. There are two drugs, one which reverses the effects of nerve gas poisoning, the other which stops the poison from working altogether. Shaped like a pen, with the power and speed of a staple gun, auto-injectors work fast and shoot deep. Regular syringes for child-sized doses act more slowly and take longer to use, possibly, warn doctors, too long to help.

FOLTIN: Everything's going to take a couple of minutes when you're going through the process of opening up your syringes, drawing it up, diluting it, putting it in tubing, delivering it to the patient.

FEYERICK (on camera): Without the auto-injector, that's how it would have to be done.

FOLTIN: Right.

FEYERICK (voice-over): U.S. troops carried auto-injectors during the 1990 Gulf War, officials fearful Saddam Hussein might use deadly nerve gas as a weapon. The 1995 sarin gas attack in Tokyo highlighted the need for ready antidotes.

In the U.S., disaster plans differ from state to state, city to city. Dr. George Foltin, who heads pediatric emergency medicine at Bellevue Medical Center in New York City, says the lack of standardized rules to treat kids could one day prove deadly.

FOLTIN: For every minute that goes by, there will be some who will not survive because they need a treatment sooner.

FEYERICK: So why aren't child auto-injectors on the market? They are. They're made by the Meridian company in the United States, but they've been sold only in Israel, the Food and Drug Administration not approving them for child use here.

Dr. Gerald Wannarka runs Meridian's auto-injector program.

DR. GERALD WANNARKA, MERIDIAN MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES: Up until recently, there was no demand or no request for the product here in the U.S. And so, as a result, no studies were done to support the FDA approval of that configuration.

FEYERICK: It's this lack of statistics that's been a stumbling block for the FDA in signing off on child auto-injectors.

JEROME HAUER, HHS DEPUTY SECRETARY: They feel that you can't take adult drugs and just use them on children, that children have a whole different response to some of these drugs.

FEYERICK: Jerome Hauer is deputy secretary of emergency readiness for the Health and Human Services Department. He's been fighting for years, both on the local and now national level, to get the child-dose auto-injectors on the U.S. market.

HAUER: The pediatric and infant population has been largely ignored. Unfortunately, that has a ripple effect in planning, because you very often don't have a lot of the emergency medical supplies you need for children.

FEYERICK: Medical guidelines say infants and toddlers should receive one-fourth the does of adult antidote, small children about half.

FOLTIN: Children and infants are more vulnerable to nerve gases than adults. Nerve gases are heavy and they tend to be close to the ground, which is in the children's breathing zone.

FEYERICK: Because of September 11, first-responders around the country are now being trained how to treat people attacked by chemical or nerve gas. But that takes time. And it still doesn't solve the problem: What happens to the kids? HAUER: You've got to follow federal guidelines. You can't write in a manual to violate the recommended guidelines for one of these drugs.

FEYERICK (on camera): But in the hot zone, adult-dose auto- injectors could save a child's life. So why not use them? Here's where emergency experts are split.

STEVEN KUHR, EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT EXPERT: It's too high a dose. It would provide 2 milligrams, where a child otherwise needs -- depending on its age -- 0.5 milligrams or 1 milligram. And you would simply impale a child because of the size of the needle on an adult auto-injector, if not done properly.

DR. FREDERICK SIDELL, CHEMICAL WEAPONS EXPERT: This consists of two injectors that are spring-operated. And that is, you put pressure on this end. The needle comes out and the stuff in there comes out.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Dr. Frederick Sidell helped calculate the dosage for auto-injectors back in the 1960s. And he says the threat of nerve gas poisoning far outweighs the potential danger of giving adult doses.

SIDELL: Atropine is a nontoxic drug. Even though it causes side effects, it doesn't hurt you. So I think the people who don't want to give the larger dose think it's going to hurt children. Well, it isn't. It's going to cause some unpleasant effects for a few hours. That's better than not getting it.

FEYERICK: Hauer, the HHS deputy secretary, has been working with both the FDA and Meridian to get the child auto-injectors approved soon, perhaps as early as next year. The company will not say how many cities have the adult kits. But at $20 a pop and a five-year expiration date, cost is a factor, especially in small cities, says emergency response expert Neal Oster (ph).

(on camera): It's a huge expense.

NEAL OSTER, EMERGENCY RESPONSE EXPERT: That's right.

FEYERICK: And then you have got to pay out that same amount of money in five more years.

OSTER: Disaster preparedness is very costly.

FEYERICK (voice-over): And what happens to kids if terrorists launch a nerve gas attack right now? Here's the secret of many front- line responders. They'd give children adult doses.

HAGAN: You're accepting risk by using too high a dose. But if the alternative is almost certain death, then that's a risk that most of us -- certainly I as a practitioner -- would take.

FEYERICK: A risk that might save a child's life, even though it's not in the rule book.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Deborah, I have to tell you, this scares me to death. Anybody who is a parent just can't even sit here and listen to this kind of thing.

Is there any plan to nationally supply child auto-injectors?

FEYERICK: Well, right now, the child injectors are what's really at issue.

There are adult auto-injectors out on the market. There's a new program. They're trying to get that into many ambulances across the nation. But that takes time. And it still doesn't answer the question: Can you use these adult doses on the children? And that is the big issue. And that's where the time delay really is a big problem.

CHUNG: But, in Israel, they have these child auto-injectors. Why can't we use the same type of dose that they do?

FEYERICK: Well, that's what a lot of emergency responders are saying here. Why can't we use those child auto-injectors? The FDA has very stringent standards. And they have been a bit slow to approve child auto-injectors. And the company has been a bit slow to do the necessary studies to say, "Hey, there are no real long-term effects, or, if there are, certainly the benefit outweighs the danger."

CHUNG: So, if there's an attack, can I assume that ambulances would be stocked with it and doctors' offices, hospitals? Does that make sense?

FEYERICK: In New York City right now, there are auto-injectors on those ambulances. But a lot of ambulances nationwide don't have those.

And so, even though they're trying to stock some 120 cities, we've just learned by this terror cell, as you mentioned, up in Buffalo, what happens if there's an attack there or in that surrounding, and they make the decision that: "Well, we're kind of small-town. We don't really -- we don't have the money to do it"? It's a big question.

CHUNG: If there's a nerve gas attack, can I just scoop my child up and evacuate immediately?

FEYERICK: One of the experts I spoke to, Neal Oster, he said that, in these situations, 85 percent of people will self-triage. They will pick up their kids -- just as you will do -- and they will take them to a hospital and not wait around for the men in the hazmat suits to show up, because that is time that they can ill-afford to spend waiting to be rescued. And the danger is, is then you spread the nerve gas to other people.

CHUNG: Oh my gosh.

FEYERICK: So that's a big issue, yes.

CHUNG: Oh my gosh.

It is not legal, once again, because the FDA hasn't approved it. But the FDA has approved the adult auto-injectors. And they do exist, but the protocol is different in different states.

FEYERICK: Well, exactly. And, also, what you're doing is, you're putting the first-responders really in a very difficult situation.

CHUNG: What does that mean, the first-responders?

FEYERICK: The first-responders: the ambulances, the men in the hazmat suits. Because there are no protocols, no nationwide protocols, you are saying to them: "We leave it up to you. If it's a really bad situation and you feel you can save a child, then you use those auto-injectors that are the adult dosage," because kids have to get a much smaller dosage.

And this is something that the country has to deal with. And we're dealing with it now. But God forbid there's a chemical attack before we work out the kinks in the system.

CHUNG: Right. Exactly. Oh my goodness.

Well, really, thank you, Deborah. Really appreciate your being with us.

FEYERICK: Always a pleasure.

CHUNG: And our thanks also to Liz Kelly (ph), who worked with us on this story.

Coming up: Their stocks weren't the only things falling. You'll see what I mean when we meet the men of Enron.

So stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: We'll continue.

(NEWS BREAK)

CHUNG: Still ahead: Does the first President Bush have any regrets about leaving Saddam Hussein in power? We'll have that and a look at an event tomorrow morning you won't want to miss.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: full disclosure and the full monty, former Enron employees debriefed in a revealing pink-slip pictorial. We'll get to the bottom line when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: We've got company. Paula Zahn and "AMERICAN MORNING" are unveiling a new street-level studio tomorrow, a studio right next door in that direction. Crews are now putting the finishing touches on the new studio looking out over the Avenue of the Americas in Rockefeller Center.

Come on, I'll walk you over there.

It's just across this hallway. And it's right over there. I haven't even been there yet. But it is a beautiful day in the neighborhood.

Oh. Oh, Paula, this is beautiful.

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome.

You like it?

CHUNG: I really do.

ZAHN: We're your new neighbors.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: I know.

ZAHN: I hope we don't bring down the neighborhood.

CHUNG: Oh, no. My heavens.

How are you?

ZAHN: We are so excited about this new home.

CHUNG: Good. Good. Let's sit down.

I guess you have to be on good behavior, because everybody can see you, huh?

ZAHN: They can see us from outside. They can see us from inside.

Do you know, in all the years I've been in the business, the greatest thing about the set, it will be the first time I've ever seen daylight streaming in a window.

CHUNG: That's true. Right. So you've never had daylight.

ZAHN: Across from Radio City Music Hall. And I actually asked people to comment. I went over the hot-button issues of the day. So its gives us a lot of flexibility that we didn't have before.

CHUNG: Now, tell me. You have a major interview that will start tomorrow morning.

ZAHN: It's a three-part series with former President... CHUNG: President Bush the father.

ZAHN: Exactly.

CHUNG: And tell us about it.

ZAHN: What we did was travel with the president to Chichi Jima. This is an island in the middle of nowhere, about 500 miles off the mainland of Japan.

CHUNG: Why did you go there with him?

ZAHN: This is the island off which he was shot down during World War II. And the president is at a very reflective stage of his life. And he says, for 58 years, he's wondered what went wrong and if there was anything he could have done to save the lives of the two guys who were on the plane with him that day. He survived. They didn't.

CHUNG: I see.

ZAHN: And part of his reason for going back was to answer some of those questions.

CHUNG: And he's never been back there since that time?

ZAHN: Never. It's very difficult to get to.

CHUNG: I see.

ZAHN: It would take you 30 hours to travel by boat from Tokyo down to Chichi Jima. It's in the Bonin Islands. We actually found, through naval coordinates of the Japanese, as well as the U.S. military, the exact point where his plane went down.

CHUNG: Did he plan to do this? Or had he been thinking about doing this for years?

ZAHN: He has. And he never had the time to pull it off.

CHUNG: Fascinating.

ZAHN: And, also, this whole idea of reconciliation between Japan and the United States is something that inspired him to want to go back. And I guess all the stars were in the right order to do that.

And the most interesting thing about this journey is that, as you'll see in the conversations, there's a real intimacy to the trip, because it's one of those rare moments he's had in his life where he's had time to reflect. And when we were out at sea with him, he talked a lot about how his experiences as a World War II pilot shaped his presidency. And he was reflective about some of the tough decisions he had to make.

And I asked him if he did much second-guessing of himself -- particularly as this debate about Iraq is so heated now -- for not going into Baghdad. And here's what the president told us. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: To this day, how much do you regret that your mission didn't take you all the way to Baghdad?

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no regrets about that, because I know what would have happened. I know that the coalition would have shattered. My only regret is that I was wrong, as was every other leader, that in thinking that Saddam Hussein would be gone. We had an objective. We told our military commanders, "Here is your objective." They saluted from halfway around the world and said, "Mission complete, sir." And that's the way it was, and that's the way it should have been.

Now, am I happy Saddam Hussein is there? Absolutely not. But am I going to be moved by the Monday morning critics, who now say we should have done it differently, who were totally silent back then? No, we shouldn't. But should we do something about Saddam Hussein? Well, that's the problem facing the president of the United States of America, not me.

ZAHN: To this day, how much are you haunted by Saddam Hussein?

G.H.W. BUSH: Not at all.

ZAHN: But you hate him?

G.H.W. BUSH: Oh, yes, I hate Saddam Hussein. I don't hate a lot of people. I don't hate easily. But I think he's -- as I say, his word is no good. And he's a brute. He's using poison gas on his own people. So there's nothing redeeming about this man. And I have nothing but hatred in my heart for him. But he's got a lot of problems, but immortality isn't one of them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Boy, was he candid.

ZAHN: He was.

Now, the one thing he will not do is, obviously, talk about what kind of advice he's given his son, or whether he has.

CHUNG: I was just about to ask you that.

ZAHN: He won't. And he's also loathe to talk about any policy issues.

He said: "Look, I'm not the president. I don't have to know about that stuff anymore and I don't have to talk about that stuff anymore." But, once again, I think what's so remarkable about this trip is, it allowed him the opportunity to tie the threads together on how this experience as a 20-year-old Navy pilot, one of the youngest ever, and the fact that he almost lost his life that day. It's really a remarkable journey for the president. CHUNG: Now, Paula, I want to ask you just one personal question, because we've been friends a long time. I still don't know how you do it. You have three hours on the air at the crack of dawn, 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. And you have a family. You have a husband. And I see you doing charitable events. And you just keep on going.

ZAHN: The Energizer Bunny.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: You are.

ZAHN: You know what the truth is?

CHUNG: What?

ZAHN: You can't have it all at the same time.

CHUNG: No, you can't.

ZAHN: And we all have to make choices.

CHUNG: I agree.

ZAHN: And I feel very blessed that I have this incredible support system in place. When I travel, I bring my mother in from Chicago. And she's -- my husband is Mr. Mom and Mrs. Mom. And she's Ms. Mom. And I'm blessed that I have people I can rely upon when things get really crazy.

But the dirty little secret is that I have one of the best jobs in television to accommodate a family life. Yes, the alarm clock goes -- or three alarm clocks go off at 4:31, 4:32 and 4:33. And I'm finally awake. But I'm usually home by the time my kids get home from school. And then the rest of the day is not entirely ours, because the phone rings and the fax machine goes off. But I'm home. And that is a nice way to live when you have three little ones.

CHUNG: Sure, except I don't think I'd be able to stay awake the way you do.

ZAHN: Well, I can't say I'm in the best mood all the time after 3:00 in the afternoon.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: I have never seen you in a bad mood. You are never cranky.

Paula, thank you. And I'll be watching in the morning.

ZAHN: Thank you.

CHUNG: In fact, I watch all the time anyway.

ZAHN: And we are honored to be your neighbors here on this Sixth Avenue location.

CHUNG: All right, we'll be back in a moment.

ZAHN: Thanks for the warm welcome.

ANNOUNCER: Next: the men of Enron shed, not shred, revealing their assets for the camera -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: If the problem behind Enron's fall was that it was hiding something, well, we've got two guys from Enron who never would have had that problem.

In the issue of "Playgirl" out today, these two guys and three other men of Enron leave nothing -- and we are talking nothing -- to be imagined, except for one of them. And I'll tell you about that in a second. For it's "Men of Enron" issue, "Playgirl" got 50 submissions.

Among the few, the proud and the naked, or almost naked: Ronald Williams and Christopher Figueroa; joined by the woman who got them to go trouser-less, "Playgirl" editor in chief Michele Zipp.

Is your name really Michele Zipp?

MICHELE ZIPP, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "PLAYGIRL": It really is.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: OK.

Thank you for being with us. I tell you, I'm sitting there doing my research. I'm going: "Oh my gosh. I can't believe this."

Ron, you have your master's degree.

And so do you, Chris.

Why the heck did you do this?

RONALD WILLIAMS, POSED FOR "PLAYGIRL": Well, it was a way of getting control back of my life after Enron laid me off.

CHUNG: You mean some cash?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CHUNG: Really?

WILLIAMS: If I'm working out and someone says that, "OK, I'll pay you for the way you look," it sounds like a good way of doing something.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Yes, but...

WILLIAMS: And it was a lot of fun.

CHUNG: Yes. How much were you paid?

WILLIAMS: A lot of money.

CHUNG: Really?

Chris -- I mean, you all won't tell us, will you?

CHRISTOPHER FIGUEROA, POSED FOR "PLAYGIRL": It's a secret.

CHUNG: Come on, Michele. How much were they paid?

ZIPP: They were paid a nice sum of money. And they made more with us then they made on their stock options at Enron.

CHUNG: Oh, that's not bad.

All right, so, Chris, why did you do it?

FIGUEROA: Well, I didn't do it for the exposure -- no pun intended.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: You didn't say that, did you?

FIGUEROA: I just did it for the fun.

CHUNG: Yes?

FIGUEROA: And it was an income-earning opportunity. So, yes, I accepted.

CHUNG: But one of the things is that you didn't do the full monty, right?

FIGUEROA: Correct.

CHUNG: You had some -- very gracefully, you put something on yourself.

FIGUEROA: Yes. What did you think of the picture where I covered my privates with the Code of Ethics book?

CHUNG: I thought that was very, very cute.

FIGUEROA: That was Michele's idea.

CHUNG: Her idea?

FIGUEROA: Yes, it was.

CHUNG: Great. All right, why did you do it?

WILLIAMS: Well, basically, like I said, it was a way to gain control and to have some fun at the same time.

CHUNG: But, Ron, you're very close to your grandmother, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I am. She's my biggest fan.

CHUNG: Well, what did she think?

WILLIAMS: She said, "Shake what your mother gave you."

CHUNG: What did she say?

WILLIAMS: "Shake what your mother gave you."

CHUNG: Oh my gosh.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: She said that?

WILLIAMS: Yes. She's very proud of me. And, like I said, knowing what had happened and some of the things I had been going through, she wanted me to feel better about myself. And exercising and some things were the way I felt better. And then when that opportunity came about, she said, "If you feel good about it, I'm with you."

CHUNG: Both of you have your master's degrees. Do you actually think that this is going to help you get a job? I mean, you're crazy if you think it is going to help you get a job.

WILLIAMS: The economy is our worst downfall right now.

CHUNG: Yes?

WILLIAMS: So, basically, I'm having fun. I'm having fun.

CHUNG: Now, you work. You have how many jobs?

WILLIAMS: Four.

CHUNG: Oh my gosh.

And you, Chris?

FIGUEROA: I'm back at Enron.

CHUNG: You are?

FIGUEROA: Yes.

CHUNG: Back at the same position? FIGUEROA: A similar type position. It's basically what's left of Enron North America. They still have their energy contracts. So I work on a team that is liquidating all of those contracts. And the proceeds of those liquidations go back to the creditors.

CHUNG: OK, I forgot. I just have a little bit more time.

Michele, you had 50 submissions.

ZIPP: Yes.

CHUNG: And what was -- I can't believe I'm asking this -- the determining factor?

ZIPP: I narrowed it down to 12 by looks and how far they were willing to go.

CHUNG: Oh, really? And did they send pictures?

ZIPP: They sent pictures, and some really good ones.

CHUNG: Exposed and unexposed?

ZIPP: Exposed and unexposed, both.

CHUNG: I see.

ZIPP: And I called them up and did a pre-interview with them over the telephone and got to know their personalities. So that was a factor as well.

CHUNG: I see. And then you did the photo shoot.

ZIPP: Yes.

CHUNG: And did you have fun?

WILLIAMS: Yes, we had fun.

FIGUEROA: Yes.

CHUNG: Great time?

WILLIAMS: Great time.

FIGUEROA: Great time.

ZIPP: Chris' wife was there, actually. She was very helpful.

CHUNG: Really. Were you considering going full monty?

FIGUEROA: No.

CHUNG: No? There was always -- and that was fine with you, Michele?

ZIPP: We decided we would like -- would rather the full monty. But because it was Chris, we made an exception.

WILLIAMS: Chris is special.

CHUNG: Really?

(LAUGHTER)

ZIPP: There's plenty from the other four, so...

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Hey, thanks for coming and being with us. We really appreciate it.

ZIPP: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

FIGUEROA: Thank you very much.

CHUNG: Great. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Enron became famous because it became huge, successful and rich. And Enron became huge, successful and rich in large part due to Jeffrey Skilling. But after he resigned as CEO, the company's stock-slide worsened and new scrutiny came to bear on Enron's business and accounting practices.

After Enron filed for bankruptcy and thousands of investors and employees lost millions on the stock, Congress wanted some answers. They went to Skilling.

SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: What was your education, Mr. Skilling? I know I read it was pretty good.

JEFFREY SKILLING, FORMER ENRON CEO: I have a master's in business administration.

BOXER: A masters in business administration, and yet you didn't know this simple fact; is that correct? You're saying you were ignorant of that fact that Ms. Watkins has told us.

SKILLING: I'll give you two...

BOXER: It's not complicated. Even those of us up here understand this very clearly.

(CROSSTALK)

BOXER: A company can never use its own stock to generate a gain or avoid a loss. And you're saying, in getting your master's -- and where did you go to school? SKILLING: Harvard Business School.

BOXER: OK. In Harvard Business School, you did not know this.

ANNOUNCER: Skilling denied knowledge of any wrongdoing. Some of his inquisitors weren't so sure.

So what happened to Jeffrey Skilling after he went before Congress? The answer when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: What happened to the former Enron CEO after he testified before Congress? According to "The New York Times," Skilling's friends and former co-workers say he spends most of his days holed up in what he calls his prison, his 9,000-square-foot Mediterranean-style home. When he does venture out, it's often to nearby hip bars, where he reportedly spends hours trying to convince people he told Congress the truth about Enron, which may have something to do with reports that Skilling's fears of an indictment are growing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Tomorrow: His wife died aboard a hijacked plane on 9/11. Tomorrow, he will testify before the congressional inquiry into the 9/11 attacks. And you'll meet him on tomorrow night's program.

Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Prince Harry turns 18.

Now, I'm going to take off the rest of the week. Carol Lin and Anderson Cooper will be here sitting in for me. So do watch.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com



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