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Expert Panel Discusses Elizabeth Smart Case

Aired June 12, 2002 - 21:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, could there be a break in the week- old kidnapping case of 14-year-old schoolgirl Elizabeth Smart? Salt Lake City police want to find this man -- Bret Michael Edmunds -- ASAP, but why, and what does it mean to a heart-wrenching case?

Tonight, from Salt Lake City, the man whose tip led police to launch a search for Edmunds. He's the local milkman, Charlie Miller.

And with him the uncle of the little girl, Tom Smart.

We'll also have the very latest on the investigation from a detective with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Plus, expert perspective from former FBI agent and profiler Clint Van Zandt.

In Lawrenceburg, Tennessee, Dr. Henry Lee. In LA, defense attorney Mark Geragos. And in New York, Westchester County D.A. and former judge Jeanine Pirro. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Thanks for being with us tonight. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, sitting in for Larry King. Fourteen-year-old Elizabeth Smart, taken from her bedroom at gunpoint in the middle of the night one week, seven days ago. The only witness, terrified 9-year-old little sister. And now, police are looking for this man, Bret Michael Edmunds, 26 years old.

They say he's a transient, and he's got a rap sheet. Edmunds was seen in Elizabeth's neighborhood a day or so before the kidnapping. Police are not calling him a suspect. But they think Edmunds may know something about the case, and they want him. Tonight, from Salt Lake, the man who actually spotted Edmunds in this upscale neighborhood where Elizabeth lives with her family. Joining us, the milkman, Charlie Miller. Hi, Charlie.


GRACE: Charlie, a question. Everybody wants to know what exactly did you see?

MILLER: I saw a gentleman when I was dropping off a delivery. I delivered to a person a few houses down from the Smarts' home. I came up the street rather slow. As I was jumping into my truck after the delivery, he went by real slow, trying to make an acknowledgment to kind of identify with him or wave to him, like I do with most of the people in the neighborhood, and there wasn't any kind of acknowledgment. So, I continued with my route. And when I did, he happened to follow me further up the road.

GRACE: That's suspicious.

MILLER: Yes. Well...

GRACE: What time of the morning was it, Charlie?

MILLER: It was actually about 6:15 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. in the morning. So, when he came by the second time, I basically thought that he was going to come and steal my milk. So, I took down some information.


GRACE: Charlie, that's unusual. You see a car and something instinctively says this guy might steal from my truck. What led you to think that?

MILLER: Well, we have cases of where that's happened.


MILLER: You know, it's just -- things that you are aware of as a milkman, and you try to protect what you deliver.

GRACE: You're driving along. The guy starts following you. Then what happened?

MILLER: He followed me on these two blocks. Then I didn't see him anymore, and I didn't think much more of it. That following Thursday, after Elizabeth was kidnapped, I read in the paper, and her -- the way her sister had described this gentleman, it was the -- kind of fit the same description that I saw.

GRACE: Let me ask you a question. We are showing a photo right now of the guy police are looking for. Is this the guy you saw?

MILLER: You know, I can't specifically say for sure. I got more of a profile when he was coming past me. His head was down. But the clothing and the stature that she had described fit what I saw.

GRACE: And what about the car, Charlie?

MILLER: The car was a dark, older model car. You know, I described to the authorities that it was like a Nissan or a Honda, and I put down a license plate number. I had remembered it because it was memorization kind of thing. I had written it down on my little box that I have in my truck that I do my deliveries with.

GRACE: Charlie, you're in that neighborhood practically every day.

MILLER: Yes, ma'am. Well, actually two times a week. Tuesday -- Mondays and Thursdays. GRACE: I've heard that you thought this was kind of odd behavior. Something was suspicious. What raised the hair on the back of your neck? What was odd?

MILLER: Well, I identify with a lot of people in the neighborhood, you know. I'm very sociable with a lot of people, and I give people different drinks and stuff, and know people that are walking or jogging or people that are going to work, and its association with that. And this is somebody that just didn't fit for the neighborhood for that time of the day and also just wasn't the right criteria to me.

GRACE: How long have you been there, Charlie? How long have you been in that neighborhood?

MILLER: I've actually been there two years now.

GRACE: For two years, two times week you've never seen this car, and he starts following the milk car. OK, that is a tiny bit unusual. Now, what led you -- what connected two plus two and made you call authorities?

MILLER: Well, it was the article that I read. And plus what the little sister had described. And it was like the baseball cap that she described as white, and the different type of clothing that he was wearing, and what kind of -- how high he was in what she described.

GRACE: Did he have on a baseball cap when you saw him in the car?

MILLER: Yes, ma'am.

GRACE: White?

MILLER: Yes, ma'am.

GRACE: And you know, it's more than coincidence. A lot of people think that this was just before the abduction. That's pretty damning in some people's eyes. Let me ask you this -- you stated that you've been in that neighborhood for two years. Did you know the little girl? Did you ever deliver to them?

MILLER: You know, the kids actually go up to meet at a bus stop for their bus, and when I come back around my route, I usually stop and give the kids drinks before they get on their bus. I just give them -- because we have little drinkers that we have. And I feel I have, you know, to come to think of it, you know, that's the reason it touched me so much, is it's like a person I was connected to in a small way, but, you know, the kids that stop at the bus and then all of a sudden to have this happen, it's really ...

GRACE: You know what? Everybody that has seen that video of that video of this little girl, it reminds them of their little sister, their little niece, somebody, their daughter. And here you have probably given her a drink, the little free drinks you hand out at the bus stop. How do you feel now in a retrospect? Now that there's an all-points bulletin for this -- at least a witness, based on your tip?

MILLER: I'm hopeful. I'm very hopeful.

GRACE: Me, too. Me, too. Charlie Miller, everyone, is with us tonight. He is the local milkman that has provided a tip in this case, the one tip out of 6,000 police are honing in on tonight. Charlie, thank you.

Quick break, everyone. When we come back, joining us live will be the brother of the mother...





ED SMART: We know that we are so close, so close. And we know that because we feel it in our hearts. And we know and we plea and ask that this person please release Elizabeth. Please let her go. We've been praying along with the whole nation and so many people that your heart will be softened and that you'll be able to see and do the right thing.


GRACE: You are taking a look at the father of the little girl kidnapped one week ago. That was Ed Smart. With us, now, his brother, Thomas Smart. Hi, Tom. Thanks for being with us.


GRACE: Tom, I understand that Ed, your brother, has actually been put in the hospital at one point for exhaustion. What happened?

SMART: Well, before this incident happened on Monday, Lois' father had their funeral, and Edward's been working really hard. And pretty much, they were spent before this ever happened. And they just, of course, were so traumatized by -- I mean, they just literally collapsed from exhaustion. It's pretty simple.

GRACE: Tom, it's so hard for so many people to even get their mind around -- you wake up in the morning and you go to wake up your daughter. She's gone. How are they holding up as of tonight?

SMART: As of tonight, I talked to my brother this morning. And he was very calm and seemed to have a certain peace. You know, we all kind of feel that. And I don't understand why. They're doing OK.

GRACE: Are they really? I mean, calm, peaceful. Their daughter's gone. I'm about to jump out of my skin.

SMART: Yes, It's completely incongruous that that's the case. And I think that you know, this is -- somehow we have a lot of hope still. And we've learned a lot from this. And I don't know what tomorrow brings. So, when I say this in the past tense, it's because for five days I felt very strongly that there's a happy ending and that this -- I mean, I think that this -- I think that we're praying for a miracle.

And we are asking for a miracle. And we believe that there is a miracle there. We're just...

GRACE: You know what, Tom? You're not the only one. You're not the only one praying for a miracle tonight.

SMART: I hate to say...

GRACE: Go ahead.

SMART: I think that the world's praying for a miracle. I think it's important -- it seems so hard to say that in the middle of the worst things -- the worst nightmare you can say, that there's a peace that we kind of feel that people are people and we're learning so much from this experience. And I know that the whole nation -- I feel like the whole world is praying that this person...

GRACE: That she comes home.

SMART: That she comes home. That's all -- that's what it's about. And there are a lot of other beautiful things they're about. But the only real important thing that we want to focus on is bring Elizabeth home. She's an angel. You know she's an angel. We all know she's an angel. And we want her to come home.

The rest of that is -- and we believe that's going to happen.

GRACE: Let me ask you this, Tom.


GRACE: A lot of focus has been placed on your brother, Edward Smart. We all know he's taken a polygraph. What was his response to that?

SMART: He said it was four hours of hell. And he's willing to go do a polygraph. He didn't know that -- he didn't volunteer that. But somehow a polygraph -- something got out and I said, "Ed what about a polygraph?" And he just went, yes I've been through four hours of hell -- and whatever.

The entire family is willing to take polygraphs. We'll do whatever you want. I don't know who has and who hasn't. But the family's -- the family will do anything. Just...

GRACE: I'm trying to imagine my own dad strapped to a polygraph for four hours trying to answer questions, the whole time, wondering where the heck his daughter is, you know, taken in the middle of the night. Did he pass the polygraph?

SMART: Yes. I was told that he passed the polygraph. When you do a polygraph, and I know because I've done one just recently -- I should never say that...

GRACE: Hey, hey, hold on. Why did you have to take a polygraph?

SMART: Everybody is suspect on this. So, it's the police's job to question everybody in this situation.

GRACE: Well, Tom, that is not unusual. Police start with the family and the friends and they go outward from there because statistically, very often when a child is abducted, it is someone the child is related to or knows. It is not unusual at all that you or Ed have been asked to do a polygraph. What's unusual is when parents refuse to take a polygraph. That's what strikes me as unusual. So I was very happy to hear that Ed had taken the polygraph.

Let me ask about the mother, Lois. How is she tonight?

SMART: I haven't talked to her in person. I've only talked to my brother. And I talked to him about 11:00-something today. And the peace that Edward has, I'm sure Lois is OK. We're just -- we're praying for a miracle. And we all believe for some reason. I don't know the answer...

GRACE: What do you think about the focus right now on Edmunds. Do you think there's any chance he may have met Elizabeth somehow? May have talked to her? I mean how the heck would a transient know how to go into a $1 million home, 3,000 square feet, go exactly to this bedroom, and find the girl, snatch her. Nobody hear a thing. Is there any way he could have had a conversation with her?

SMART: I don't know. I mean, I don't know -- I don't know who this guy is.

GRACE: Have they seen him? Did Ed or Lois think they had seen this guy?

SMART: Nothing that they've said to me. But I think -- we're happy that Charlie's come forward with this -- Charlie, right?


SMART: Yeah. With this information because we think he's the key -- he may be the key to it. We don't know but we trust whatever the police say at this point and we want to do whatever we can.

GRACE: Well Tom, I would have to agree with you. If police are searching the area with helicopters looking for this guy, that leads me to think that he's got some very important information that they want.

Tom Smart, message to the kidnapper tonight, what do you have to say?

SMART: I believe that this person is not a bad person at all. And our family has felt strongly for a while. And there's been a comfort here for a while. This is just somebody who actually likes Elizabeth. We don't know -- we have issues. We've been ripped apart by our polygraph. I don't know who has done what with my brothers.

We all have issues. Anybody's taken -- we've been ripped apart to the core. And we understand that everybody has issues. And we pray hard that whoever this is will know that the family is full of compassion towards everybody because this is a wonderful story, in a lot of ways.

Because it's about, foremost, a beautiful, little angelic girl. But it's also about -- everybody has issues no matter what. It crosses the boundaries on everything. It's an amazing story.

GRACE: Tom, thousands and thousands of people are joining you tonight in your wishes and your prayers. And I want to thank you for being with us.

SMART: Thanks so much.

GRACE: Bye, Tom. Everybody stay with us. Coming up next, Salt Lake City police detective Dwayne Baird.


LOIS SMART, MOTHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: Elizabeth, we love you. Our hearts are close together. I'm wearing the special necklace you gave me on my birthday. I love you. I think of you every minute and I know we're close. You're going to come home Elizabeth. Be strong and be ready to come because you're going to be with us soon.



GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry King tonight. Thanks for being with us.

Right now, we are going to our panel. Joining us tonight, an FBI profile veteran. Clint Van Zandt is joining us. Also, world renowned forensic expert -- you know him well -- Dr. Henry Lee.

From New York, Jeanine Pirro is joining us, hard as nails prosecutor. And from L.A., defense attorney Mark Geragos weighs in.

Let me go to you, Clint.

What's the best profle you can give me on the perp?

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, Nancy, we've been looking all along. We've been looking at somebody that's probably a predator. This is someone, he may not have kidnapped a child before. But this guy's going to have minor law enforcement violation violations, peeping. He's probably had some run-ins with the law. He's probably been arrested. He's a blue collar worker, he's not real well-educated. He knows the area, knows the community, and Nancy, this wasn't a fluke.

This guy knew the house. Now, he may not have known Elizabeth by name. But I think he targeted her. I think he targeted the house. This wasn't a fluke. The guy knew what he was going after, and unfortunately he did it.

GRACE: Everyone, I want to give you a tip hotline number right now. If you know anything, if you think you know anything, the number, 800-932-0190, and 801-799-3000. Let me go to you, Dr. Henry Lee. You have been on some of the most world-renowned criminal cases ever. What would they be looking for in a forensics point of view?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSICS EXPERT: Well, forensic point of view, first thing we have to look at the point of entry. Point of access. Of course, we know that's a selected target. It's in mansion, 6,600 feet. Pretty large size of a house. Second floor. That's a selected target. And why only take the 14-years-old Elizabeth? She, apparently, is 5'6" and 105 pounds. So, middle of the night, at the gunpoint, they possibly have some potential physical evidence. If we can find some fingerprint or shoe print or hair, fiber evidence can helping us to link to somebody or eliminate somebody.

Utah police did the right thing, asked the community to provide information. Four-thousand volunteers searched the area.

GRACE: That's right. You're right, Dr. Lee. Four-thousand volunteers, 6,000 tips so far. Let me go to you, Jeanine Pirro. You say the theory is sexual predator, why? Jeanine, are you with me?

JEANINE PIRRO, WESTCHESTER COUNTY D.A.: I agree with Clint and Dr. Lee that what you have here is not a random situation but a targeted one. The fact that the individual is going into the home and going to the second floor and specifically talking Elizabeth, as opposed to her 9-year-old sister. The fact that there has not been a demand for money indicates to us that this is not a hostage situation.

We also have a scenario here where it appears that the person knew what he was going after, and he exited the house in a different way than the way that he apparently entered, and I think that what we're doing here is so important, by getting the public to assist, just as the milkman has assisted in giving us evidence that may be crucial in this case. We need the public's assistance to make sure that the Utah police get all of the information that is available to them to help them solve this case.

GRACE: Mark Geragos, question to you. The police are insisting that Edmunds is not a suspect, but they said the same thing about Robert Blake, did they not?

MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, they did. I think that they're doing that on purpose. I don't think if he was a suspect that he'd let you know. They're not going to put that information out. He does, at least his description that's been put out there and that you had on earlier, seems to deviate from what the 9-year-old described as the abductor, but I don't think that that's not all that meaningful.

GRACE: But remember the 9-year-old girl -- Mark, the 9-year-old girl is laying in bed. It's dark. She's looking up at a full-grown man. The guy has a white cap. He's in the neighborhood the day before. How do you say that's not consistent?

GERAGOS: What I'm saying is that I don't think it makes all that much of a difference that she might have described somebody that they think is 5'8" and he in fact is 6'2" for the exactly the same reasons that you just put out there. She is obviously terrified. She didn't talk for three hours afterwards because she had been threatened. She is nine years old. The guy might have looked different, or somehow been slightly exaggerated in one sense or another, so I don't put much stock in her descriptions.

I don't think it matters whether they show her the picture or not.

GRACE: I guarantee you, when it comes down to a jury trial, if there's a discrepancy in the description, a good defense attorney, Mark Geragos, will tear it apart, tear it into shreds.

GERAGOS: Hopefully it never gets to a jury trial.

ZANDT: What Mark is suggesting right now I think is right. Number one, Mark and everybody else on the panel know knows that as far as visually identifying somebody, that's probably one of the worst forms of eyewitness identification you can get. That's fine. That's good for lead value. But you want Henry Lee there. You want forensics. That's what's going to make this case.

GRACE: Let me ask you this, Dr. Lee, when you get down to this car, if the police locate this car, I belive it's a green Saturn they're looking for at this point, what would you expect to find in the car?

LEE: First thing, definitely going to look for fingerprinting. If I can find Elizabeth's fingerprint in the car, that's a direct linkage. Or I can look for hairs. And, of course, I want to know what she wear that night when she was abduct. Look for fiber evidence. Hopefully, saliva or any other evidence I can link the victim into his vehicle.

GRACE: Let me ask you this, Clint. Based on statistics that you are familiar with, we know the little girl was taken in the middle of the night wearing red silk pajamas. She got her shoes on -- what's the likelihood? A week has passed.

ZANDT: Well, two different things, Nancy. Number one, the statisticians in this area will say the likelihood is that we're not going to get her back. But you know, in a case like this, statistics be damned. I'm a parent. Her parents are out there. The FBI, the police, will continue to work this case like she's alive until we find out otherwise.

GRACE: Clint, I agree with you. Statistics be damned. Everybody stay with us. We'll be right back. Elizabeth Smart, where are you?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace from "Court TV" in for Larry King tonight. Let me go right now to Dr. Henry Lee. We know him well.

Dr. Lee, the police are in between a rock and a hard spot. They're in the tough spot of relying on a description in the middle of the night by a terrified 9-year-old girl. What can you tell me about this description?

LEE: Yes, nine years old and a little sister must go through a very traumatic experience. Of course, she's the only direct witness now. And police detectives should ask her to compare the kidnapper with her sister. Instead of ask exactly how many pounds and what's the height of the suspect, and just compare to the sister and describe and give the best description we can get.

GRACE: Good point. And Jeanine Pirro, you and I both know from questioning a lot of child witnesses, you really need an expert to question a child. Their perspective is not your normal adult perspective on the stand.

PIRRO: Several issues. The key person in this case is the 9- year-old sister. She was there. She saw the individual. She saw a black handgun. And every time the police question her, they come out with more information.

It is absolutely essential that we have someone who is child- friendly, who is not overbearing, who is not frightening. Given the scary scenario that the 9-year-old, Mary Catherine, has already been through, we have make sure that we give someone -- have someone interview the child with whom she's comfortable.

Because more information will come out as time goes on. But of course, time is of the essence here. The clock is ticking.

GRACE: Right, exactly, exactly. How much time do we have? And I find it very unusual. We talked to detective Baird earlier. That after speaking with the little girl three times, they still have not released a composite for the public. I see a red flag.

PIRRO: But you know what, I have to tell you, Nancy. I think that the Utah police have handled this extremely well. There are a lot of facts that have not gotten out to the public, and it's to their credit. And it inures to the benefit of the victim and the victim's family.

GRACE: Good point, Jeanine.

PIRRO: This is the scenario where what we're trying to do is make sure that the public assists and puts the pieces to the puzzle. But this girl will have to be questioned many more times. And more information will be gotten from her.


GRACE: Go ahead. PIRRO: There's one other point I want to know. We talked about the prior -- the arrest warrants that are outstanding for this individual, Edmunds. My understanding, Nancy, is that he's got a prior burglary conviction and that he's on probation. I want to know what was burglarized, a dwelling at night or -- a dwelling or a commercial building.


GRACE: And did he have a gun?

PIRRO: The difference is this. An individual breaks into a commercial building is a different mentality than someone who will break into a dwelling at night and risk coming up against individuals in the home.

That gives us some sense of who we're dealing with. And I'm very concerned about the type -- you know Clint, you talking about the profile here. You saying that someone's blue collar. I don't believe for one minute that this man has looked at the house to buy it. But maybe he's been a worker there.

ZANDT: No, of course not. But this guy has been a worker -- just like you're saying. He's been a worker. He's been in the neighborhood. He's observed the house. And it's my understanding behind the house, there's kind of like a hill that goes up. And then, there's kind of a trail or a road back there.

That would be a great place, if you know a neighborhood, to stash your car, come down into the house, enter, kidnap the victim, and then take her back up again and not have to be on the street.

GRACE: Clint, I've got a question for you, it seems a sore point sticking out, odd. Why would a perpetrator, sneaking into a house, everything's nice and quiet, go straight to the room, get the girl, afraid she can yell, scream out at any moment, allows her to go back to get her shoes. Is that not unusual?

ZANDT: See -- two reasons Nancy. Number one, my best case scenario is this guy really cares and that's why we're going to get her back. Because he's caring, he's nurturing -- utilitarian purpose, as an FBI agent is that he's taken her some place. He doesn't want to...

GRACE: Hold on. Caring, nurturing is not fitting in with my scenario of a kidnapper.

ZANDT: It's somebody who will give us the little girl back alive. And that's what we want. If it's not that, it's a utilitarian purpose. He wants to put shoes on her because he's taking her in an area, he knows that he may need her to walk fast, to run, and that helps him get away if she can walk.

GRACE: Mark Geragos, something is not fitting together for me here. The theory is this guy's a transient. He's casing the area. He's driving around in his car. Living there day and night. Where does a guy that fits that profile go into a $1 million, 6,000 square foot home, goes into the girl's room and get her without making a peep.

GERAGOS: You find it a little bit hard to believe that there's a real estate agent around that's going to see this guy drive up and say, OK, let me go show you this house. They're going to do a little economic profiling and figure out immediately that this guy is going to stick out like a sore thumb...

GRACE: That's right, Mark, you don't...

GERAGOS: And he's not going to go into this house.

GRACE: You don't move your Saturn into a $1 million home. I agree with you on that one point.

GERAGOS: I think that Clint has probably hit the nail on the head here. It obviously, or seems to be obvious, at least intuitively, that whoever this was, knows the layout of the house. If that's the case, it's somebody who worked on the house. Somebody who has been in that house. Somebody who -- like an appliance sales or service person. Somebody who has been there recently to do some other kind of repairs on the house, spotted her and abducted her.

And I think Clint is also right, you don't find in a lot of the cases where somebody -- I think it's highly unusual where somebody is putting shoes on the person and allowing them to act in that kind of a fashion.

GRACE: I know, that really screams out to me, Mark. I've never known of a child abductor to go back in and get the shoes for the kid when they're trying to make a getaway.

GERAGOS: That's what makes it so unusual. And I was going to ask Clint. Clint, does it make some sense from a profiling standpoint that this is somebody who actually knew her?

ZANDT: Well, what makes sense it's either somebody who knew her, Mark, or it's someone who when he entered the house, he knows that there's rocks, stones, things you have to step on. He doesn't want her yelling as he's taking her back to a getaway vehicle. Therefore, it works for him for her to have shoes on.

GRACE: Guys, when we come back, we're going to Clint Van Zandt with some questions about post-kidnapping behavior. He's been profiling for the FBI for 25 years. He has some startling theories.


GRACE: Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry King tonight. Elizabeth Smart, now missing for over a week, just 14 years old. Taken out of her home in the middle of the night. Not a sound made. Let me go to former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt.

We're looking for this guy. Everybody's looking at his picture. We know his tag number. Again, he is not a suspect, Bret Michael Edmunds. What about post-offense behavior?

ZANDT: Good question. This is when the public says what can we do? These are the things you look for.

Number one, I wish we had your panel investigating and prosecuting every guy like this. We couldn't do a better job. But in the post-offense behavior, this is something you can't change, it's already happened.

This type of individual, Nancy, just like Henry Lee said, you would look in the car. This type of guy would have gone out, he would have washed his car, he would have cleaned the inside. He would have gotten rid of his clothes. He might have gotten rid of his shoes. He might have been sick the next day, if he worked. He might have left town far day or two. He'd be collecting newspaper articles. He'd been watching this program tonight and everything he could get his hands on.

There would be behavior that would make him stand out from anyone else around him. And they're going to be people who are watching this who say, gee, I know somebody. He didn't come to work the next day. He was sick. Whatever it is. These people need to pick the up phone and call that number you gave, because that's what's going to break this case. Salt Lake City police, FBI, that's great. But the American public, that's the force multiplier. When somebody takes a child, we've all got a part of this, Nancy.

GRACE: Jeanine Pirro, question: what's going to crack the case?

PIRRO: I think the 9-year-old is going to crack this case. I think as the police continue to question her, they'll get more and more information. And just as Clint said, as more of the public calls and gives information, we piece together the pieces of the puzzle. And I also think there's another piece, Clint, and that is that a pedophile is going to collect. He going to keep something, assuming that this is...

ZANDT: Oh, sure. A trophy, right?

PIRRO: There are trophies, that's right. And although he may wash his car, although he may get rid of forensic evidence, there is some piece of the case that he will keep.

ZANDT: Jewelry, dress.

PIRRO: And you know we've got great law enforcement working on this case, and I think that, along with the prayers of a lot of people, will help break this.

ZANDT: Amen.

GRACE: Mark Geragos, speaking of keeping trophies, entirely possible. But does it fit with a lot of people's theory of a transient? A transient cleaning his car? Going to the car wash, vacuuming it out? He's not a suspect but he is in focus of the police. GERAGOS: Right. I think the police, even if they believe that he had something to do with this -- I don't think -- I mean it just doesn't tend to fall in logically. I think what you're going to find here is that they want to see whether or not he saw something or if he's connected to somebody else or something else. It just doesn't quite ring that this would be the guy or the type of person or the profile of somebody who's going to commit this act. I think you've got somebody who has a little bit more economic means than this guy who's living in his car.

ZANDT: Yes, he does, but you know, right now, Mark, he's the best thing they've got.

GERAGOS: Certainly, you're not going to -- I mean, to ignore him would be unconscionable.


PIRRO: No one has really talked about a computer. Did the girl -- did she have a computer in the bedroom? Did they take it out. Did they analyze it?

GRACE: That's a heck of a start. But the police have let it out that the parents say she was not involved in the Internet. Dr. Lee, what were you saying?

LEE: I think police already checked the Internet, the computer issue. I would like to ask the rest of panel, what you think of the suspect act alone or have a accomplice?

GRACE: Good question. What about it, Clint?

ZANDT: I think this guy acted alone. The interesting thing, Henry, is that we've got a preferential offender, too. He had his choice of either the older girl or the younger. He chose the older.

LEE: Maybe just because he only had power to overpower one person.


GRACE: But if he's pedophile, if he truly is a pedophile -- Jeanine Pirro and many others think this is a sexual predator -- a pedophile would have taken the 9-year-old.

LEE: The younger.


PIRRO: The pedophile would clearly have taken the younger girl, but also another piece to this, Clint. What is the fact that there are five children, two adults, probably a babysitter and a nanny in this house, tell you about the abductor? I think that she was targeted. This is not a random case where he says "I've got two. Let me take this one."

LEE: Absolute. Jeanine, you are right.

ZANDT: Absolutely. This is not somebody who just picked out this house on a fluke and wound up in Elizabeth's bedroom. But the challenge that comes here is how did he know where Elizabeth's bedroom was? Now, he found her bedroom. How did he know that?


GERAGOS: ... knew that she was there ...


LEE: ...point of exit...

GERAGOS: Exactly. Knew how to get in and out of that house without waking anybody else up.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, what were you saying about entry and exit?

LEE: Yeah, well, we have to know the point of entry and point of exit. Through the door, window, because that's a second floor bedroom. Somebody has to know where Elizabeth's bedroom is. That give us a lot of clues. We have to look at carefully the point of entrance, point of exits. Do we find any physical evidence give us any clue?

GRACE: You know, you're so right. And right now, tonight, police are sifting through this and so much more -- 6,000 tips, 600 worth following up. Tonight, they are looking for one man, Bret Michael Edmunds. If you know, if you think you know anything, here are the numbers -- 800-932-0190, 801-799-3000, or That's way to reach them.

Thank you to everyone. Cliff Van Zandt, Dr. Henry Lee, Jeanine Pirro, and Mark Geragos. Thanks for being with us tonight. I want to remind you, coming up next is "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN."

And tomorrow night, special guest with Larry King, Ed McMahon. Thanks for watching. Good night.




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