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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Who Pays for the Crematorium Debacle?; Eighty Percent of Americans Think They are Overweight.
Aired March 5, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I am Arthel Neville. And I want to let you know up front to get ready to call or e-mail, because the number is 1-800-310-4CNN and the e-mail address is TALKBACK@CNN.COM.
I know you are going to have something to say about our first topic, which is very bizarre. It's happening right here in Georgia. A crematory operator in north Georgia has folks up there so mad about the way he treated their loved ones' bodies. Officials say he has to be kept in jail for his own safety. Now that story is up first and there is more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(voice-over): What's in the lake near a north Georgia crematory?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have temporarily identified two bodies in the lake.
NEVILLE: Officials look for corpses and angry relatives wonder why this man refused to cremate their loved ones and kept the bodies in his backyard.
And later, who says Americans are too fat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fat is not a four-letter word and we will not apologize for our size.
NEVILLE: A new study claims 80 percent of us are unpleasingly plump and people are lining up to make sure you scale back. Do you care enough to take it off?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(on camera): We will get to that later. But first, we're going to talk about that crematory story, and Dana Tofig from the "Atlanta Journal-Constitution" has been covering this story up in Noble, Georgia. You are back now and fill us in on the latest up there, Dana?
DANA TOFIG, "ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": Well, the latest right now is that they are going to be draining this lake that they found on the property. They started draining it. It is going to be until about Friday until they can actually get what they call a flat- bottom boat in there to try to see if there is any more bodies in there.
And then yesterday, I believe in a bond hearing, they had -- it came out that there were some types of pictures of bodies on Brent Marsh's computer, but we didn't hear much else.
NEVILLE: And he is the owner of the crematory?
TOFIG: And Brent Marsh is the owner of the crematory. It was started by his father, Ray, and then he took over about 1996.
NEVILLE: Right. You know -- and I know there is a gag order now, and I understand that the parents, his family, they are somewhere around the area, but no one has heard from them before the gag order. I mean, you know, I just cannot imagine them handing down a family business like this.
TOFIG: They are still -- the mother, Claire (ph) Marsh, is still very involved in the business as far as I know, but they have not really said much to us and their attorney is kind of bound by a gag order, so there hasn't been much -- we have not found out a lot about what they are thinking right now.
NEVILLE: OK. So they are draining the lake and that is going to be probably complete today?
TOFIG: I am not sure of today. I know they think it's -- it won't be low until Friday.
NEVILLE: Or by Friday, yes, exactly. And talk about for me, if you will, the atmosphere of the community up there. I mean, how are people reacting to this?
TOFIG: Well, there's a lot of folks who are very, very outraged, but there's also a lot of surprise out there. This family, the Marsh family, was very well known in the community. The mother was the head of the Democratic county committee. The son, who is now the owner, Brent, he was very involved in the community. He was a football player at UTC, University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, and very well known in high school. And everybody has had, you know, pretty good things to say about them up until this point.
NEVILLE: Up until now, of course. Now, of course, you will keep us posted on the latest developments. But right now, Dana, what I want to do is bring in Rusty and Lisa Cash into the conversation. Now, Lisa's mother died in December. Her body was sent to the crematory in Noble, Georgia. And then, Lisa -- Rusty, you are going to speak on this first. You were given the urn with what you thought contained Lisa's mother's body. But what did you find out?
RUSTY CASH, VICTIM OF ALLEGED CREMATORY FRAUD: Well, what I found out was it was cement instead. My mother-in-law died December the 31st. And about seven weeks later, I saw the breaking news about what is happening. It was a Friday. So Saturday morning, I called Turner's (ph) funeral home and I asked him, well, what is going on? And they said, well, if we hear anything, we will let you know.
Well, the GBI...
NEVILLE: Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
CASH: Yes, called Turner and said they found Norma Hutton (ph), Lisa's mother, in a barn and my wife was devastated. She was in denial, like, no way, you know, I have mother here now.
NEVILLE: Sure.
CASH: And, well, Turner said I'm sorry but we have to go pick her up. So, that was the Saturday around 4:00, 5:00. And Sunday, we went to ID, identify her...
NEVILLE: Sure.
CASH: ... and their anger -- I'm sorry -- that denial turned into rage and anger with my wife.
NEVILLE: Of course.
CASH: We just couldn't understand how something like this could happen.
NEVILLE: Right. But you have the urn here today now, but now you have Lisa's mother's remains in the urn now.
CASH: We do. We -- I went to Wilson's Funeral Home and I saw Norma Hutton go in, and about six hours later, around 11:30 that night, I was there to see her come out.
NEVILLE: So, you were there to watch it?
CASH: Yes.
NEVILLE: Right. Lisa, you know, first of all, thanks to both of you for being here. This is a definitely such a hard topic to discuss. And, Lisa, I just want to know, that was your mother. And if you can help me understand what you were going through when you found out that, in fact, someone had cement ashes in there, in the place of your mother's remains?
LISA CASH, VICTIM OF ALLEGED CREMATORY FRAUD: I was devastated to hear it at first, but then it turned into rage when they found her body. How can he do this? This is people's loved ones, my mother, other people's mothers and daddies and so forth. I was angry.
NEVILLE: So what do you feel like doing? When you heard this, what did you want to do?
L. CASH: I want us to know why he did it, but he ain't never going to tell nobody why he did it. And just I think he's disturbed in some way.
NEVILLE: Yes, clearly. Now, of course, this in no way is your responsibility, but just wondering if in any way you felt a sense of responsibility that you let your mother down? You know, you thought you were you doing the right thing. Did you feel that at all?
L. CASH: Sort of, and then my sisters and brothers, I thought how would they look at me because she went down there and they did not do their job. A little bit.
NEVILLE: But how are your sisters and brothers now reacting to you and to the situation?
L. CASH: We are all together on this and we want him to pay for what he has done wrong.
NEVILLE: Now, what -- I know there are a couple of class-action lawsuits going on here. Are you going to try to get involved in that, Rusty?
R. CASH: I am not sure what exactly we are going to do right now, but our biggest concern is to make sure that whoever has come to him, he'll get the full max, no doubt.
NEVILLE: Of course.
R. CASH: That is the goal right now because he hurt many, many people. Saturday night was our anniversary, the night we found out that her mother was in a barn. And that was the worst night of our lives. I have never ever seen my wife -- what can you tell your wife of 12 years of marriage, it is going to be OK. What can you do besides hold her and love on her. It was devastating. I wouldn't want nobody to go through what we had done. Of course, there are hundreds of people that is going through this.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. In fact, Rock Thomas is here with us as well and his wife, Kathy (ph). And, Rock, give us your story. Let me see if I can get your background straight. Your mother died in January and she was cremated. You became suspicious after reading about this story. You took your mother's urn to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to have the ashes analyzed and what did you find out?
ROCK THOMAS, VICTIM OF ALLEGED CREMATORY FRAUD: Well, we found out about late Monday afternoon that the ashes were not human and about the same time, found out that she -- her body had been ID and positively ID late Monday afternoon, I guess one of the first 20 or bodies or so. I guess it was a day or so after the Cashs. But she died January 6, and so she was still...
NEVILLE: So, help me understand. You said that you found out that inside of the urn was not your mother's remains. What was in there? Did they tell you?
THOMAS: They did not give us specifically what it was. They just said it was non-human.
NEVILLE: Oh my gosh.
THOMAS: And it was -- it made you angry to say the least. NEVILLE: Of course. And, Kathy (ph), you know, as the wife here, again how do you console your husband in a situation like this?
KATHY THOMAS, VICTIM OF ALLEGED CREMATORY FRAUD: I think it -- excuse me.
NEVILLE: You know what, I will do this for you.
K. THOMAS: In order to empathize with his grief and his anger, at this point, his mother had cancer for four years. So we knew her death was coming. It was not a surprise. But the disrespect goes against human nature. And both of us believe that what he did was just a blatant disrespect of the dead and inconsideration towards the living. And for us, to disassociate the person from the body is very hard...
NEVILLE: Absolutely.
K. THOMAS: ... even though you know the person is dead. To us, it is my mom. To him, it was a body.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. And, Rock, I understand that you are going to take place in one of the class-action lawsuits. What do you hope to accomplish?
R. THOMAS: Well, my stepfather is -- has a lawyer looking into which alternative of a civil or class-action suit is the best. But my anger has been pretty focused since that day, especially since we positively ID her mom, my anger has been focused on finding out how this came about and what happened that allowed this situation to develop. And, for the first time in my life, I have sent off requests for records...
NEVILLE: Sure, sure.
R. THOMAS: ... open records requests and things to government agencies. I want to know what happened.
NEVILLE: Right. So you just want to know what happened? You are not necessarily looking for monetary gains at this point?
R. THOMAS: I am not. I want to know what happened that this place could continue to grow and fester...
NEVILLE: That's right. Been going on for way too long. It should not have happened in the first place.
R. THOMAS: Exactly.
NEVILLE: Stand by for me, if you would, for a moment. I know we have some phone calls standing by. Again, this is definitely a topic that people would like to weigh in on and we will get your phone calls when we come back.
In the meantime, we want to ask, is anybody responsible for making sure the ashes really do belong to the person whose name is on the urn. We are going to talk to a woman who is suing. That is right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back.
Continuing now with our conversation about the owner of a crematory in Noble, Georgia who dumped bodies in his backyard. Joining the conversation now, we want to bring in Kathryn Barnett, an attorney with the firm of Leaf, Kaberser (ph), Hyman (ph) and Bernstein. She has filed a class-action lawsuit against several funeral homes that did business with the Tri-State Crematory. Also, Scott Gilligan, general counsel with the National Funeral Directors Association.
Ms. Barnett, I'd like to start with you and ask you which funeral homes you are going after and why?
KATHRYN BARNETT, SUING FUNERAL HOMES AND CREMATORY: This suits names the Marsh family Tri-State Funeral -- Tri-State Crematory and also all of the funeral homes that we have been able to identify so far who sent bodies there.
People ask what is the reason for including the funeral homes and it is because this case is about responsibility. Families go to funeral homes when the worst thing that could have happened, happened to them, they lost a loved one and they have to trust the body of their loved one to someone and it's a funeral home.
They go to the funeral home and they entrust this sacred and important and very personal duty on a funeral home and they have no way whatsoever to monitor that to see if the funeral home is doing what they are suppose to do under those circumstances. The law...
NEVILLE: So, in a nutshell, what do you hope to accomplish with this lawsuit?
BARNETT: Well, we are seeking, you know, not only are we seeking monetary damages on behalf of this entire community of families, we're wanting the court to exercise its special powers to provide some relief that can't just be gotten back with money. There are going to be remains that ultimately I think cannot be identified and there are going to be bodies that are not found on this property.
So among the things we want is for the court to take control of this property and hold it for the benefit of this entire community of families so that some sort of memorial can be put there, some sort of dignified and respectful use of the land can be decided.
NEVILLE: And that is what you are hoping to do with the monies?
BARNETT: Well, no, that's in addition to the monetary damages, to try to compensate these families. Again, there is probably no amount of money that can fix this for families and the nightmare they are going through, but we've asked a jury to decide what's the fair amount of damages. And then, in addition, for the court to exercise its special powers to provide other relief. NEVILLE: I certainly don't want to put a negative spin on this at all, but, you know, there are people who would say when attorneys get involved in a case like this at this juncture and you're asking for more than burial expenses to be reimbursed, you are asking for monetary gains here, some people say, you know, what is up with that? Don't you just want to get to the bottom of it and make sure that this does not happen again and just simply console the people?
BARNETT: My firm, Leaf, Kabreser, Hyman and Bernstein, has been involved in these cases over many years. And we have hoped in every case that we can hit the industry hard enough that it will take responsibility for itself and regulate itself and make sure it does the job that it promises to do. And clearly, that is not happening. When it does not happen, it falls on the courts to intervene. And lawsuits are the tool for that. It's a tool for citizens to say we do not appreciate the way this is happening. We do not like it and these folks need to take responsibility for their job.
NEVILLE: Mr. Gilligan, before I let you jump in there, I would like to hear a comment from Kate, who is standing by with me. Kate, what do you have to say about this?
KATE: I wanted to ask the families, do you find that you are going through the mourning process all over again with this happening?
R. THOMAS: My wife has suffered from the reliving of the -- my mom's death and everything more than I have, in all honesty. Frankly, I have been angry about how the situation came to be. But the more information that comes out, I mean, we found out this morning the crematory was working.
NEVILLE: Right.
R. THOMAS: And, you know, in the beginning you could kind of right it off as kind of, well, maybe they got behind. They did not know how to do it and it is nasty and it's ugly. But you thought that maybe, you know, there was a reasonable explanation. Now one of the most common explanations is gone, and so I have not relived the mourning process, because I have kind of been focused in my anger.
NEVILLE: Lisa, let me ask you the same question. Are you reliving this horrible situation of having to, you know, put -- lay your mother to rest?
L. CASH: Yes. I thought it was all done and I was getting over her passing away. I mean, I will never forget her. But then they call and say I have to come and identify her again, I -- it just starts all over, yes.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. We have an e-mail now I'd like to take a look at, if we can pop that up on the screen and read it. It is from Martin in Leavenworth, Kansas: "I can't believe that anyone thinks a class-action lawsuit is appropriate. Will money really make this better", which is actually what I was intimating as well to Kathy. Ms. Barnett, I'd like you to respond to that please? BARNETT: I think a class-action case is really the only way to pursue these claims, and not just for monetary damages, but also for the other kinds of relief that we are asking for. There is going to be no way to give individual relief for families, many of whom are never going to find out the true fate of their loved ones' remains.
Through the class-action process, we can take discovery and we can find out, what did the funeral homes know and when did they know it? How long did this go on at this crematory and why? And we can find out a lot of that information. We can use this to provide some relief to the families. And there is no doubt that money will not fix this for every family, but it is the only means of imposing a need for this industry to recognize it needs to regulate itself and it needs to be responsible for its job.
NEVILLE: Mr. Gilligan, I am going to let you weigh in on this. I am standing here with Lisa, Kathy, Rock, all of these people who have suffered a horrendous crime against them, as far as I am concerned. What do you say about this?
GILLIGAN: We certainly agree. It is a horrendous thing and a nightmare for the families and the funeral homes involved. We would like to also get into the bottom of it and see what happened. Georgia has a law that says you have to be licensed by the funeral board there, in order to operate a crematory, and yet, this tri-state crematory was not regulated and it went on for 20 years, and we would like some answers to that as to why they were able to slip through the regulations.
NEVILLE: You are shaking your heads that is what you want to see as well?
THOMAS: Yes, sir, he has hit the nail on the head. I mean my state representative is involved with this. This place was specifically exempted and he tried to get a permanent exemption.
NEVILLE: Exempt from what?
THOMAS: State regulation and licensing. In 1992 he tried to get a permanent exemption for a crematorium. This is at a time when you -- in Georgia you cannot get your nails done by somebody without a license. There are -- I mean, every subcontractor is licensed these days, and in 1995 and 6 he knew that they were trying to be licensed by the state board.
NEVILLE: So you are implying that there is some politics involved here.
THOMAS: No question about it.
NEVILLE: We are going to continue this conversation when we come back. I know we have some of you waiting on the phone. We are going to get to your phone calls when we come back to continue this discussion. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Continuing our discussion now about the crematory up in Noble, Georgia, and I am standing here with JJ, and your comment or question is?
J.J.: Well, how do the kids feel about this, with the cremating, and that is basically it? How do they feel?
NEVILLE: Do you want to answer that?
THOMAS: Yes, I could start, I know the Cashes have four children, so -- my 9-year-old was walking around over the weekend before we found her body, he was going "where, have they found Mama yet?" And they were -- really did not understand what was going on, but there was a sense that -- mama was not where we thought it was.
NEVILLE: Tanner (ph) , I want to ask you, is there anything you would want to say to the kids involved in the situation?
TANNER: Umm.
NEVILLE: You know, like if you want to make them feel better, what would you say to them?
TANNER: I would just hope that now they know where their mama is, and if not, that they would find out.
NEVILLE: Right, thank you very much to both of you for joining in on the conversation. And before we went to break...
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Before we went to break, there was an e-mail we aired that said that Brent Marsh should not get any jail time. What do you guys say to that? Rusty, how about you?
CASH: Well, just seeing what my kids was going through, whatever they give this man, it won't be enough. Um, I don't know what you can do to this gentleman to -- I don't know, what my wife went through, um, whatever they give him -- that is a tough question.
NEVILLE: It is not enough. Exactly, I mean, how do you answer that? First of all, who expects something like this? And how do you even say what to do with something like that?
CASH: That's right, that is a hard question, because whatever they do to this gentleman there, um, in.
NEVILLE: In your opinion probably isn't enough.
CASH: No, most definitely.
NEVILLE: We have Marla standing by on the phone, she is calling from Indiana. Marla, what do you have to say?
CALLER: I have this to say -- I think that the man, the monster should be put away for life, and I think those victims, the poor innocent victims, people with families, should have a lawsuit and band together. It is a disgrace, it is a fraud, and the man is -- he's anti-Christ. He should be put away for good, and those victims better band together.
NEVILLE: We are taking a look at him, Ray Brent Marsh in court with his attorney.
Tonya, what do you have to say about this?
TANYA: My question he directed at Dana, because we started in 1996 but clearly we found that this was going on a lot earlier than 1996. Is the focus is now on the parents?
TOFIG: I am not sure about that. Yesterday we found out that the bodies they have been able to identify, are -- did not come from any further back than 1998, but initially when they began there was talk that this coup have been going on for you know 20 -- as long as 20 years, so the sheriff has said that certainly they would have to be looking at the parents as part of the investigation, but the father is very sick.
And so I don't know, I don't know what they are going to be able to do as far as talking to him, but certainly they are part of the investigation at this point.
NEVILLE: Kathryn Barnett, you have been listen to go the conversation a while, I would like to hear your thoughts at this point?
BARNETT: My heart goes out to these families. It is a tragedy. I am speaking to the families on the phone daily who are going through this nightmare. And it is a complete tragedy. It is something horrible that no one should have to go through,
That is my main thought, that my heart goes out to them, that is why we want a suit on file, so these people have some protection, and so they have some breathing room to take the time they need to decide if they want to pursue legal action or if they don't, if they want to contact a lawyer or not. That is part of the point of having this case. The families that we represent are courageous and willing to come forward for their own personal vendetta.
NEVILLE: But on behalf of the everybody.
BARNETT: Exactly, on the behalf of the community of families touched by this.
NEVILLE: Mr. Gilligan, what are your thoughts at this point?
GILLIGAN: We are so shocked by the whole incident, even though Mr. Marsh of course wasn't the funeral director, funeral directors dealt with him, and we are reevaluating and looking at state, federal regulations on this. In fact, we are going to have in Washington D.C. on March 21 a funeral service consumer protection forum.
We have invited federal regulators, state regulators to take a look at all the laws, as they impact funeral homes, as they impact crematories, to see what can we do to stop any possibility of this happening again.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. Dana Tofig, "Atlanta Journal Constitution," thank you so much for being here.
Lisa, I know this was different for you. Thank you very much for being gracious to share your story. And perhaps your story and your words will lend some sort of condolences or solace for other people in your situation.
Rusty, thank you so much as well.
And, Kathy (ph), thank you very much for being here.
Rock, it was a tough story to tell, but we appreciate you for joining us and telling your story. Thank you very much.
And when we come back, we are going to -- and, of course, don't want to leave you out. Kathryn Barnett and Scott Gilligan, I want to thank you as well.
I am just so involved with the families here, because I feel so bad for them. So thanks to you guys as well. Thank you.
And up next, we are going to switch gears. And Americans, they are setting a new standard, tipping the scales, and showing the world that we're No. 1. And we are talking about in almost every way and everybody should know it, or they think they know it. We're going to talk about that when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The largest people are Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they have got guts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because they can wear they want.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have just come back from North America and I felt slim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. OK. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Who is too fat? We're too fat, so says a national survey that suggests Americans set the plump standard for the world. Now, a Harris poll came out today.
And CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here with the skinny. Pardon that pun. I'm sorry. OK, so what's the deal with this poll? And what did it find?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the Harris Poll. It looks at all sorts of different activities, including eating, including smoking, including seat belt use. So, let me give you the good news first.
The good news is that 81 percent of people now use their seat belts. That's compared to 19 percent in 1983.
NEVILLE: OK, that is good. That is good news, very good news.
GUPTA: Smoking is down now from 26 to 23 percent, most recently. So, 23 percent of people now smoke. That is lower.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: That's very good news, not only for the health issues involved, but for personal reasons. I don't smoke. And I don't feel like being around people who smoke.
GUPTA: Absolutely. Let's get to the bad news here.
NEVILLE: Uh-oh.
GUPTA: The skinny, as you call it.
Eating, obesity, overweight, from 1983 to 2002, got some numbers here. In 1983, 58 percent of Americans were overweight. Every five to seven years later, it was polled. It has gone up. Now, in 2002, 80 percent of people consider themselves overweight.
NEVILLE: Overweight.
GUPTA: Now we talk about obesity, people who are, frankly, obese.
Again, back in 1983, only 15 percent; 2002, the number more than doubled; 33 percent of people now consider themselves to be obese. And they are trying to do something about it. At least 60 percent of Americans have tried to lose weight, gone on a diet.
NEVILLE: Gone on a diet.
GUPTA: And 72 percent of people who consider themselves obese have also tried to go on a diet. Only half the time have they considered it successful, though.
NEVILLE: I see. I understand polls and stuff like that, but I have to ask. You can just look around and see that people's jeans fit a little tighter than they did before. So why do they have to have a study on this? I mean, come on. Give me the money that they paid for that study.
GUPTA: Right. And they were actually asking people to evaluate themselves. And people tend to actually poll themselves taller and poll themselves lighter. So the numbers could actually be a little worse than what we are hearing now; 80 percent could actually be underestimate.
But you are right. The target of obesity and what people consider overweight has changed over time. And the important point is that it is going up and people need to address this potential health concern.
NEVILLE: Oh, it is a health concern.
In fact right now, I want to bring in someone else on this conversation to talk more about the obesity survey. And that is Dr. Eric Braverman, who is the director of the Place for Achieving Total Health, and Russell Williams, who is the vice president in charge of activism for the International Size Acceptance Association.
OK, thanks to both of you for joining me.
And, Dr. Braverman, I want to ask you this. OK, I'm 5 feet, 7 inches. How much would I have to weigh to be considered overweight or obese?
DR. ERIC BRAVERMAN, PATH MEDICAL: Well, the ideal goal for 5 feet, 7 inches is five pounds for every inch. So, 135 is your ideal weight. And approximately 155 would be obesity.
And, if you don't control your obesity...
NEVILLE: One hundred fifty-five? So if I'm 155 pounds, I'm obese?
BRAVERMAN: I believe so. And that starts to set you up for all these other diseases: high blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis, higher risk of cancer. You need to keep your weight ideal. And it relates to a lot of medical factors that we now know how to fix and help.
NEVILLE: That is shocking to me, because I hope I don't get to 155, but I got to tell you something. If I were to get to 155, I wouldn't consider myself obese. So maybe there are a lot of people walking around who are considered obese and they are at risk. I mean, what is the way to combat this problem, then?
BRAVERMAN: Well, it is multifactorial. We now know that addiction comes from the brain. It is really an addiction to carbohydrates.
So, many individuals have got to cut their carbohydrates out, their salt out, their sugar out, their junk food out. They need to get a hormone evaluation. Thyroid contributes. Growth hormone deficiency contributes. Parathyroid imbalances contribute.
We really know that hormonal imbalances and brain chemistry is the basis. It's not sin. It's not gluttony. People get obese as they get older because their hormones drop.
NEVILLE: Metabolism rates drop. And then, also, you have people who actually eat as a form of comfort. What do you say to those people? It is easy for us to sit here and say, OK, I'm going to push back from the table. I'm going to go on a diet. I'm going to exercise more. I'm going to do all these things.
But if you have people with serious emotional problems, it is just not that easy. What do you say to those people?
BRAVERMAN: Many of those individuals need treatment. Sometimes we use medications to deal with the anxiety. Sometimes they use natural substances like B vitamins, Anasatol (ph). They even try St. Johns Wort.
You need to know that obesity can be treated. There are tests of brain chemistry, such as a beam developed at Harvard Medical School, that shows the metabolism drop. There are tests of hormones that pick up the early hormone imbalances. And there are tests that evaluate the emotional factors. But obesity is first brain chemical, second emotional and lastly spiritual.
NEVILLE: Mr. Williams, what do you have to say to these -- because you say that if you are overweight, fine. And love yourself and love to eat.
RUSSELL WILLIAMS, INTERNATIONAL SIZE ACCEPTANCE ASSOCIATION: I didn't say -- I don't mean, if you are overweight, fine.
What I say is, there is not currently any effective method of dealing with the problem. Think about it. For the last 30 years, people have been spending more and more money on various and sundry diet programs, things that would tell them they will get thin. During that same time, the average American has been getting fatter. Therefore, that is my evidence that the programs do not work very well, not for most people, most of the time.
If someone currently tells somebody to go on a diet, I tell fat people the perfectly responsible answer to that is, "Why should I want to get fatter?" I have interviewed hundreds of women about their dieting histories, fat women. And almost all of them tell me: diet by diet, getting fatter and fatter.
NEVILLE: So, why is that? What is their explanation for that, saying that if they go on a diet, they gain weight?
WILLIAMS: It seems to be that, when the body has less food coming in, the body becomes more fuel efficient. So, if a person is eating 2,000 calories a day, they go on a diet. After a while, those 2,000 calories will maintain a higher body mass.
I heard from a couple of different sources that, with farm animals, if you want to make the animals gain weight...
NEVILLE: You feed them.
WILLIAMS: You put them on a diet. NEVILLE: Well, the whole idea of your metabolic rate dropping. People do make the mistake, thinking: "I am going to starve myself. I am not going to eat breakfast. I'm going to skip lunch. I'm going to skip a meal." And that's the wrong thing, because what you do is, you slow down your metabolism, in effect.
In the meantime, Ed and his new wife, new bride, Kathy, you guys both went on a diet Saturday. What do you have to say about this subject we are talking about?
ED: Well, it is nice when you have another person with you to help you try lose the weight, so if you sort of stray off, you've got somebody to straighten you out.
And Weight Watchers, we just got into the program Saturday. It has to do with points. You have so many points according to what your weight is.
NEVILLE: So you are looking to lose how much weight?
ED: Well, you try to lose 10 percent. So, I'm 227. I will try to lose 22 pounds.
NEVILLE: And how much time do have you to do that?
ED: Well, it is all up to you and how well you stay on the program.
NEVILLE: OK. Now, Kathy, I want to ask you, what made you two get on the diet? And how much weight do you hope to lose? And, also, you have to exercise. Are you guys going to do that as a team as well?
KATHY: Yes, we do exercise every day. I did Weight Watchers once before, and I dropped off of it, I think because you need a buddy. And Ed is very adamant about wanting to lose. So he kind of pumped me up to do it. And I want to lose 10 percent of my weight as well, which will be about 16 pounds.
NEVILLE: OK, well, good luck to both of you. I guess we can all lose a little weight at the end of the day, if you think about it. That's right.
Oh, I want to thank my colleague, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, for joining us in on this conversation.
And we are going to take a break right now. But when we come back, we are going to talk to a politician who thinks he can put Brooklyn on a diet.
Hello, what's up with that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Joining me now is a man who wants to put all of Brooklyn on a diet. Marty Markowitz is the president of the Brooklyn Borough.
Mr. Markowitz, first of all, thank you for being here.
MARTY MARKOWITZ, BROOKLYN BOROUGH PRESIDENT: A pleasure.
NEVILLE: That's good.
I am going to ask this question as respectfully as I can. How are you going to put Brooklyn on a diet? Come on, all of Brooklyn, are you kidding me?
MARKOWITZ: All of Brooklyn does not need it. That is the good news. But a lot of people in Brooklyn do need it, just like their new borough president, me.
NEVILLE: Oh, so this is all about you?
MARKOWITZ: Well, it's about making Brooklyn healthier. And it's about getting people conscious about what we eat, how we exercise, because, if we succeed -- and I believe Brooklyn will, because Brooklyn always leads the rest of the nation in all good things. And I have every intention of making Brooklyn the example for the rest of the country.
NEVILLE: But you have to tell me specifically, how are you going to do this, Mr. Markowitz?
MARKOWITZ: Here is the idea.
When a person that smokes, when you speak to them to give up smoking, you know what they all say? "I know, I know." And with people like me that are chubby, and when someone says, "Marty, you could stand to lose a few pounds," every person like me says: "I know. We will do it tomorrow." So here is why it is going to work.
We are going to make it neighborhood vs. neighborhood. We have to give dieters an incentive to lose weight.
NEVILLE: I think the incentive should be a break in property taxes. That will get them to lose weight.
MARKOWITZ: Listen. Believe me, that is important as well.
But, for now, a healthier Brooklyn is also important. And so I believe we can shed 2.4 million pounds in Brooklyn. That is the number of people we have. And it seems to me, by making it neighborhood vs. neighborhood, which neighborhood will lose the most weight, that will be an indication of people getting excited because they realize that it is not just about them. It's about their neighborhood. And we in Brooklyn relate to our neighborhoods. And that is why I think we will lead the way.
NEVILLE: So you are hoping to maybe see more residents outside walking in the evening and just kind of make this a community thing and bring the Brooklynites together.
How much weight are we talking about? Or what time? I'm sorry. How much time do you have to do this?
MARKOWITZ: Well, we're talking about a 10-week program.
NEVILLE: OK.
MARKOWITZ: And we are going to have weigh-in stations all over the borough. We are going to involve hospitals, health clinics, the Y's, schools, medical centers. We are going to involve the whole community in making this a reality. And there is going to be a prize for the community in Brooklyn that...
NEVILLE: What is the prize? Get to the prize. That's what I want to know.
MARKOWITZ: Well, you know what? Stay tuned.
NEVILLE: No, no, no. See, you don't have a prize. You better get some money in some coffers. Find it from somewhere. You better come up with money, Mr. Markowitz.
MARKOWITZ: We're going to raise the flag of the community above Borough Hall that wins the diet in Brooklyn. And guess what? We are all going to be healthier because of it.
NEVILLE: OK, that is a nice idea.
But, Angel, you are standing here. You are from the Bronx.
ANGEL: I am from Bronx, New York. So I would like to know, you are saying that you are going to wage each borough to...
NEVILLE: It's going to be neighborhood vs. neighborhood. See, there is no money involved here. Now, if you were living in Brooklyn, Angel, would you lose weight just to get your flag hung up on some building?
ANGEL: No. There has got to be money involved. I am born and raised in New York, so I should know.
MARKOWITZ: I don't know about money. But I will tell you one thing. We are looking. We are just beginning this in April. And we are going to try to come up with that prize. I think the person you just interviewed came to a good point here. We have to give people an incentive that goes beyond their own individual health, because everyone knows that they have to lose weight. They know it already. I want to give them incentive to do it together, all of us in Brooklyn.
NEVILLE: I am telling you, mean green speaks to everybody. It's a universal language. Mean green, give it up.
MARKOWITZ: Maybe CNN will help.
NEVILLE: We have an e-mail right now that I want to read to everybody. It's from Paul in Brooklyn, New York: "The Brooklyn diet: regular coffee, bagel with a schmear. And fuhgetaboutit." (LAUGHTER)
MARKOWITZ: He's right, by the way. And Junior's Cheesecake, we are going to have to do without that for a few weeks.
NEVILLE: Yes, for a few weeks.
All right, we sent CNN's Richard Quest out to Covent Gardens -- I love Covent Gardens -- in London to find out what the folks in London have to say about Americans being too fat.
This should be interesting. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: You call it candy. we call them sweets. These are the things that will pile on the pounds. But Central London, it's the place to find who British think are the fattest people on Earth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Chinese or America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's got to be America.
QUEST: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? They eat a lot. I see it on television and stuff.
QUEST: Which group of people in the world do you think are the fattest people in the world?
CROWD: The Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Americans, definitely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have just come back from North America and I felt slim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they make me feel slim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to reeducate them to get off of the McDonald's and the Burger King thing.
QUEST: And eat healthily.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eat healthily, yes. Eat your spinach, Americans.
QUEST: So, the view from London pretty unanimous: It's Americans that are larger than life. You'll have to excuse me. I have got some catching up to do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: Oh, boy I tell you what. I love you guys in London, but you better stop picking on us. We are not too fat.
All right, I want to thank Marty Markowitz right now. Thank you so much for joining us today.
MARKOWITZ: A pleasure.
NEVILLE: And you at home, don't go anywhere. We are going to be right back to talk more about this. Are we too fat? I don't know. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
Dr. Braverman, Mr. Williams, I understand that during that package we ran on the reaction from London, you were chuckling. I would like to hear what you were thinking.
WILLIAMS: Well, in my case, I was thinking about the couple that said they were going on a weight-loss program. If the weight-loss program says it is safe and effective, I suggest they ask if it has a money-back guarantee. Anyone going on a program that says we have a safe, effective program that works almost all the time, ask the people for a money-back guarantee. If it has enough faith in itself to offer a money-back guarantee, good. If it does not, why should you participate?
NEVILLE: Dr. Braverman?
BRAVERMAN: I feel strongly that he has a point that there is a lot of failures. But we think new science has proven that obesity relates to brain metabolism. There are new drugs that treat it. There are new diets that treat it. As you get older, your hormones go down. The natural estrogens, natural progesterones, growth hormone, new treatments are on the horizon.
Obesity can be defeated in many, many people if they get complete medical care, not stop-and-shop medical care, but that total health care that deals with...
NEVILLE: I want to let Christopher from North Carolina speak out now.
You are on the phone, Christopher. Go ahead.
CALLER: Yes. I just want to say that I am 5 foot, eight inches, 5 foot, 9 inches. I weigh about 185 pounds. And according to these scales, I am morbidly obese. However, I exercise. I weight train. I have probably less body fat than 99 percent of the country. People who exercise for strength, according to these scales, are overweight. And that is why it says 80 percent of the people are overweight. That is a fallacy.
NEVILLE: Dr. Braverman, quickly.
BRAVERMAN: Yes, in men, it's 106 pounds plus 8 inches times six. So it's about 156, 160. But there is a new scan called the Dexus (ph) scan. It will scan you in five minutes and it will tell you if you have muscle or fat to lose.
NEVILLE: Well, as they say, Dr. Braverman, muscle weighs more than fat. I am sorry to cut you off, but I am out of time here.
I want to thank you, our guests at the studio, here in the audience, you at home. Everybody, thanks so much for joining us.
I'm Arthel Neville. And I would like to see you back here again -- that's right -- tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern, noon Pacific for more of TALKBACK LIVE.
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