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Prison Mom: Should Her Son Be Able to Spend the Night?

Aired August 22, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE FAUST, FATHER: Yeah, I don't trust her to keep them overnight by herself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wanted his mommy. He didn't want to go home. He needed his mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Would you allow your 6-year-old child to spend the night in prison with a convicted killer, even if a court ordered you to do it? Even if the killer is his mother?

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

We will explore the pros and cons of letting a 6-year-old spend the night in prison in just a moment.

But first, look who's talking to Congressman Gary Condit. It appears "People" magazine managed the first conversation with the congressman and made it the cover story of Friday's edition, coming the morning after Connie Chung's well-publicized interview.

At his side, his wife, Carolyn. And we understand that the congressman also showed up with his children, Cadee and Chad.

Joining us first today is CNN national correspondent Bob Franken, also Howard Kurtz, host of CNN's "Reliable Sources" and media columnist for "The Washington Post."

Bob, I -- first question off the bat here, we see that Carolyn Condit is next to her husband on the cover of "People" magazine. Does that mean that she may likely be at the interview tomorrow?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, that would be the safe assumption, except I have had some informed speculation -- and the only way can put it -- informed speculation that it is quite possible she will not be part of that interview. She might not, in fact, be there sitting there when the interview is done. All of this is in the state of flux everyone is considering the work of progress here. But at the moment I'm told it is quite possible that she will not be in the interview that's done on television, it's just a different type of thing.

I can also tell you, CNN has learned that the other news weekly is "Newsweek." The interview will be done with Congressman Gary Condit by "Newsweek." I'm told that that interview has not yet been completed.

Now, there are of course other media who are still involved. One of them will be a local newspaper. We don't have any information on that, except for the fact that the "Modesto Bee," which is the largest newspaper in Condit's district, has not been contacted by Condit people about an interview. I should point out that the "Modesto Bee" was one of the local media who called on Congressman Condit to the resign, which of course has been rejected by the congressman. But we can tell you that the "Modesto Bee" has not been contacted by the Condit people.

We're also told that as far as a local television station is concerned, there is plan to do a local television station. No decision has been made on that. There is no local TV in Modesto. The stations that cover this area closest are Sacramento and Fresno. No decision has been made.

So that's the latest going down on what we know about that, and we can talk in a moment about the mailing to constituents, which has not arrived yet in their post office, or their postal offices.

BATTISTA: So we don't really even know whether Mrs. Condit participated in the "People" magazine interview. Just because the children and she were there when the interview took place and she's on the cover, we don't even know whether she participated?

FRANKEN: We only know that they were photographed, at least Mrs. Condit was -- that, of course, is obvious from the cover -- and that the children were there. And I suppose we're just going to have to wait until Friday to find out if in fact they were asked questions.

BATTISTA: All right.

Let me bring Howie into this quickly.

Howie, the choice of the "People" magazine, an interesting one. Is it a good one?

HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST": From the congressman's point of view it's a very good choice. "People" probably didn't hurt its chances a couple of weeks ago when it ran a profile of Carolyn Condit, the congressman's wife, calling her a "poised woman," "respected in her community," "dedicated to her children and grandchildren," "polished appearance," "gracious demeanor."

You know, "People" is a good magazine, and I'm not expecting a puff piece here, but you do tend to get a little softer-focus lens, a little more focus on the family, maybe a little more focus on the ordeal from the congressman's point of view, perhaps a less prosecutorial approach then he might expect if he sat down with, say, the "Los Angeles Times," "The Washington Post" or any of the newspapers that have been pounded on him and have been breaking stories about not only his extramarital activities, but the way he's handled these police inquiries.

BATTISTA: So in other words, this -- you know, I agree with you, "People" is a good magazine, but it isn't known for real hard-hitting interviews or for asking particularly tough questions. So...

FRANKEN: In fact, Bobbie, we have to point out that the other magazine is going to be "Newsweek," which is a different kind of animal.

BATTISTA: That's true. Good point.

KURTZ: I think that that's fair, you know, sort of doing one hard and one soft. But certainly other celebrities in trouble have also availed themselves in a "People" magazine route.

About three years ago when Michael J. Fox wanted to tell the world he had Parkinson's disease, "People" cover story, fairly sympathetic, also sat down with ABC's Barbara Walters. Drew Barrymore gave "People" the exclusive on her childhood battle with drugs and alcohol. And Calista Flockhart went to "People" to deny all those stories about her being anorexic.

So, in a way, Gary Condit is following the route of some entertainment celebrities, at least ion the choice of "People," not necessarily "Newsweek," in expecting that he'll get a sympathetic hearing. Obviously, I'm sure "People"'s reporters will ask tough questions, but it's going to be a more feature approach, because that after all is what "People" magazine does.

BATTISTA: Is it possible, Howard, that that could boomerang on the congressman a little bit? Is he taking any sort of risk here by suddenly surrounding himself with his family, when some of the things that he's accused of doing are not particularly family oriented? Does it suddenly look like he's using his family to accomplish something?

KURTZ: Some people will certainly reach that conclusion. And just the other day ABC's Cokie Roberts sort of rolled her eyes when she referred to Carolyn Condit and why she seems to be standing by her man despite the ordeal that she is obviously going through.

But the fact is that people, and Bill Clinton used this in the '92 campaign when people -- when voters weren't even sure that he had a daughter, he and Chelsea and Hillary posed for the cover of "People" before the Democratic convention.

It's the good way of reaching millions of the readers. So in other words, the cynical media types and the journalists and the commentators may cluck and be disapproving about the congressman appearing to use the family that he apparently betrayed, but all of the people who read "People" magazine will get a somewhat different take, and it's hard to argue with that decision from Gary Condit's point of view.

BATTISTA: By the way, we should mention that "People" magazine is part of the Time Warner family group.

Bob, what is latest now on the mailing that's supposed to go out to the congressman's constituents?

FRANKEN: Well, this may probably be the closely-watched balk mailing in the history U.S. Postal Service. We do know that it has been dropped in the mail in Sacramento, it is a security route getting from Sacramento through a couple of other post offices to the ones here.

At last word, which was just a few moments ago, we checked, the trucks had not arrived. They can arrive as late as 3:00 tomorrow morning, for instance, and then the bulk mailing can go out in time to be in post offices in this area before the televised address, which is the plan of the Condit people.

The Condit people are being very secret about its contents because they are really -- really want to have the voters read it before we get a hold of it of course. We're trying to interfere with that. So the race is on. But in any case, it has not been delivered yet. And we're also told that it's something that is going to be paid for with private funds, that it is not going to be paid for by congressional franking.

BATTISTA: All right, then, a lot of developments to come in the next couple of days.

Bob Franken and Howard Kurtz, thank you both very much for joining us.

FRANKEN: Thank you.

BATTISTA: In a moment, a woman convicted of killing two people insists her 6-year-old son must spend the night with her in prison. If you were the boy's father, what would you do?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

Is prison any place for a 6-year-old to spend the night? Bruce Faust doesn't think so and he faces contempt charges for refusing to allow his young son to spend the night in prison with a killer. The killer just happens to be his ex-wife, and the boy's mother. Here are more details now from affiliate station KETV's Carol Kloss.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL KLOSS, KETV REPORTER (voice-over): Little league baseball is a welcome diversion for Bruce Faust and his boys, 11-year-old Dalton, and 6-year-old Jarred (ph).

They have been through a lot in the past year. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are doing pretty good. I think they are doing great.

KLOSS: Last November, Jarred and Dalton's mother, Kim Faust, went to prison for first-degree murder. She killed Shannon Bluhm, the woman Bruce Faust was dating. The Fausts were separated at time. And then she killed Robert Parminter, a passerby who tried help Bluhm.

(on camera): Some of the victim's family members pushed for Kim Faust to get the death penalty, and earlier this year, she was sentenced to life here at Nebraska Correctional Center for Women in New York. At the time, Bruce expected that Kim would get periodic daytime visiting with the boys, but never expected she would get overnight visits with their younger son Jarred.

FAUST: Yes, I don't trust her to keep him overnight by himself, and I don't know the conditions, you know, if she is guarded or what.

KLOSS: You know think that she may be capable of harming the child just to spite you?

FAUST: Just look at how far she went already.

KLOSS (voice-over): As part of the divorce settlement with Kim, Bruce Faust is under court order to allow the boy's visit their mother every other weekend in prison. Both boys have made several visits during the day. But Bruce refuses to let his 6-year-old Jarred spend the night, so Kim's lawyer filed a contempt order against him. Nonetheless, this father is determined to keep his young son from staying overnight in prison with his mom.

Correctional officials say the programs record is spotless. In its 26-year history, there has never been an incident of an inmate harming a child.

SHANNALEE ACOSTA, INMATE MOTHER: If there were, I guarantee you, that this program would be shut down.

KLOSS: These inmates say they saw Kim Faust with her 6-year-old son when she he came to spend the night. They witnessed a loving mother and a young boy torn apart when his father refused to let him stay.

JUSTINE STOVALL, INMATE AND MOTHER: That little boy didn't want to leave. He still loves his mother, and that shouldn't be taken from him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That little boy didn't want to come out of the room back there. He wanted his mommy. He didn't want to go home. He needed his mom. He needed the security to know that his mother still loved him.

KLOSS: As for Kim Faust herself, she declined to be interviewed for this report. Until a court rules otherwise, her lawyer feels Faust is entitled to overnight visits with her son. FAUST: The visits, I guess, I'm getting more used to, you know, for a couple of hours. But staying overnight, that's just -- would you want your 6-year-old there?

KLOSS: The prison won't force a child to stay against his guardian's wishes. But in the end, it may be up to a court to decide what's in the best interest of the child.

FAUST: I don't trust her. I can't do it.

KLOSS (on camera): And what if they find you in contempt?

FAUST: That's another battle.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BATTISTA: Joining us now from Omaha, Nebraska is Carol Kloss, the reporter that you have just been listening to. She is covering the story for CNN affiliate KETV.

Carol, thank you very much for joining us.

KLOSS: Thank you.

BATTISTA: If you could flesh this out just a little bit more for us, what were the exact details, first of all, of Mrs. Faust's crime?

KLOSS: Well, she apparently stabbed, first, Shannon Bluhm and then shot her to death, set the car on fire that she was riding in to cover up the crime. And then along came a man by the name of Robert Parmintier, acting as the good samaritan, trying to save the victim, Bluhm, from the fire, and Kim Faust killed him as well. And of course she was convicted of two counts of first-degree murder.

BATTISTA: As I understand it, part of the program now, the woman's facility, the mother undergoes a what, psychological evaluation to determine...

KLOSS: Thirty days.

BATTISTA: And she passed that.

KLOSS: She did, yes. In fact, the prison doesn't look at the crime of the mother. They are just more or less looking at the best interest of the child, and they believe that that maternal bonding between the child and the mother is very important. They want the child to come and see the mother in prison, to see that she's doing fine, and to just be able to have that continued closeness with their mother.

BATTISTA: But they don't know whether or not that mother might hurt that child at some point?

KLOSS: The only thing they can say there is that they are very careful in that respect. In the program's 26 year history, there has never been a child harmed by an inmate, and this is a flagship program. It's The first parenting program in the country, and now serves as A model for other correctional facilities across the country.

BATTISTA: How did this custody settlement take place? Did the father not understand that when he was agreeing to visitation rights, that it would include overnight visits?

KLOSS: Apparently, he did not, and it is a little bit confusing. He did agree to the every other weekend daytime visits. The divorce settlement also calls for parenting time under the parenting program at department of corrections. The parenting program does allow for overnight visits with children between the age of 1 and 8. But according to the prison, those overnight visits are up to the discretion of the guardian. Now, Bruce Faust refuses to let his little boy spend the night with his mother in prison, and that is why Kim Faust has filed the contempt charge against him.

BATTISTA: And should the father happen to go to jail on the contempt charge, then what happens to those two boys?

KLOSS: Well, I'm not sure. I presume that they could stay with Kim Faust's parents, who now have custody of their teenaged daughter, and they also get visitation with the boys.

BATTISTA: And what has been -- you say that this program has been in place at this prison for some 26 years. What has been the rake from the community there to this, to this whole story?

KLOSS: We have had a great deal of reaction, in fact. We have a survey running right now on our Web site, the omahachannel.com, asking people whether or not they think that these overnight visit for the little boy are appropriate, and the response has been overwhelming against the visit: 92 percent of our viewers saying that the prison is no place for the children to spend the night, 8 percent say that the boy should be allowed to spend the night in prison.

BATTISTA: And yet going on for 26 years, correct?

KLOSS: Right. A lot of people want to look at the mother and say she's a convicted murderer, she doesn't deserve to have these little boys spend the night. And, of course, the victims' families are vehemently opposed to her having the child. They point out the fact that the victims, who had five children between the two of them, will never see their children again. Those children will never be able to have the closeness with their parent.

The prison points out that you need look at the little boy and see what's in his best interest. He also is an innocent victim in this whole story. And if it's in his best interest to spend those overnight visits with their mother, they are in favor of that.

BATTISTA: All right, Carol, stay with us, if you will. I have to take a quick break and then we'll debate this issue. The question for you is, should Kimberly Faust's son spend the night with her in prison? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at CNN.com/talkback, AOL keyword, CNN. While there, check out my note and send us an e-mail.

Up next, whose side are you? We will discuss. Stay with us.

Bedford Hills Correctional Facility. New York's maximum-security prison for women, developed week-long summer "camps" for children of incarcerated mothers. Children stay overnight with host families in the community and spend the day with their mothers in prison.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Joining us now, Jeffery Leving, a custody and fathers' rights attorney. He is the author of fathers' rights. Cecile Weich is also with us. She is an attorney specializing in women's legal rights and matrimonial law. She is a member of the federal civil rights commission and the women's economic's roundtable.

Cecile, let me start with you. Should a 6-year-old be spending the night with his mom in prison?

CECILE C. WEICH, ATTORNEY: Well, I think that we are using the terminology wrong. He's not in prison. He's spending the night with his mother, and that's very important for a young boy to have a connection with his mother.

After all, she's going to be away for the rest of her life, and probably a good portion of his life. He must have a connection to her in order to grow up in a healthy way. But there's a very important point that I'd like to make and that is the father committed a crime too -- a moral crime, the crime of adultery. And the ten commandments, one of the commandments is, thou shalt not commit adultery as well as the commandment of thou shalt not kill.

He is enjoying the fruits of his moral crime. Certainly she should be denied no less.

BATTISTA: You know what, we don't know all of the particulars of that. He was separated from his wife when he had the girlfriend...

WEICH: That's still adultery.

BATTISTA: But I don't know if he ever legally separated from his wife when he had the girlfriend, but I don't know if they were legally separated or what the particulars were.

WEICH: It's still adultery as long as he was married. That's a moral crime. It's a crime against religion and a crime against, prohibited by the 10 commandments. He has committed a moral crime. He's enjoying the custody of his children. He is now depriving his children of the right to -- his child, of the right to have a relationship with the child's mother.

That's again, a moral wrong.

BATTISTA: Jeffery, what do you think is best for the boy?

JEFFERY LEVING, FATHERS' RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Right now I think what is in the best interest of the boys is to submit to a complete psychological evaluation to find out what is their state of mind?

The issue here is not allegations of marital or former marital misconduct or what is in the best interest of the mother or the mother's psychological evaluation. What we really need to know is the children, their state of mind. How will they react to visitation? How will the younger child react to overnight visitation?

Because what we have to do here is determine what is in the best interest of the children, not what is in the best interests of the mother. And also, punishing the father for alleged past misconduct is not going to benefit the children. This is not a war. The key here is not destroying the children or litigating out of spite. The key here is keeping these children from becoming motherless and fatherless.

They have already lost their mother. They likely are going through trauma of losing mom full-time. Now what are we going to do?

BATTISTA: If the father goes to prison on a contempt charge then you have a real mess.

LEVING: Then we lose both parents.

WEICH: The father is not going to go to prison on a contempt charge. The judge is going to make a determination whether this boy should spend the night with his mother on occasion. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that if the prison psychologists believe that the child is capable of enjoying the evening with his mother.

He's not going to be in a cell behind bars. They have special facilities for these children with their mothers to enjoy the evening and to wake up together. This child should not be deprived of the company and care of his mother, even on an interim basis.

BATTISTA: Let me bring Carol back in here quickly because we are talking about the judge and what he may decide. Carol, that hearing for Bruce Faust is coming up on the 27th, I believe?

KLOSS: He will appear before the judge at that time and he says that he will deny that he has done anything wrong. And then there will be a hearing after that.

BATTISTA: Any feeling at all for what the judge might do?

KLOSS: I really can't comment. I really don't know.

BATTISTA: Jeffery, I've gotten a couple of e-mails along this, of this nature, about would we even be having this discussion if it were the father who was the convicted killer and in jail and the child wants to spend the night with him.

LEVING: I doubt that because I suspect gender bias may exist in the prison system. I know of no reciprocal programs in Nebraska allowing fathers overnight visitation for children want to wait.

BATTISTA: Should there, Cecile, should there be the same kind of programs for fathers who are convicted murderers?

WEICH: Absolutely. I don't necessarily, although she is -- has been convicted of a crime of murder, I don't consider her necessarily a bad person. Her crime is what's known as a crime of passion. And I don't think that we should look at her like someone walking down the street and killing at random. That's No. 1.

No. 2, if a state has a program that will permit overnight visitation for mothers, that program undoubtedly exists also for fathers. And they should be permitted to have the same rights as mothers. Children should not lose the care and companionship of either parent because one of the parents is incarcerated.

Prison officials and society are beginning to understand that the depravation of mothers and fathers, the depravation of that relationship is bad. It should be promoted at every course. This can not harm the child. It can only help the child and help his understanding.

BATTISTA: Carol -- Carol.

LEVING: You don't know that. You don't know that if this little boy visits his mom that this little boy will not be harmed. There's no psychological evaluation that I am aware of concerning the boy.

LEVING: I am assuming that before they permit the child to visit overnight with his mother that there will be psychological evaluations. Certainly the judge will not permit the overnight visitation unless he or she sees these psychological evaluations.

BATTISTA: I wanted to ask Carol because we got the indication from her package on this that the father was concerned about the kid's safety with the mother, correct?

KLOSS: Yes, yes he is.

BATTISTA: Do you feel that he is being sincere about that, or do you feel like there is a sort of a classic revenge going on back and forth here between these two parents, about hurting each other?

KLOSS: I can only go by what Bruce Faust tells me and he claims that he is sincerely concerned about the children's safety, that if she stooped this low to kill his girlfriend and this innocent man, what he might she do the children? Now the prison on the other hand...

WEICH: That is absolutely incorrect.

KLOSS: The prison, on the other hand, has evaluated Kim Faust, and they feel confident that that child will be safe when he goes for those visits.

BATTISTA: All right. I have to take a quick break. As we do, let me get some audience reaction. Quickly, up to Nancy here in the background. Nancy, what do you think? NANCY: I think that it's ludicrous that a child would be dragged out to a prison every two weeks to visit his mother. It's dumb. Children are very resilient and this child, if he's kept at home and kept in a good atmosphere will do a lot better than being in a prison, even though it's just for a visit.

BATTISTA: And over here to Janice...

JANICE: I think that we should definitely take the child's best interest at heart. And this child, to me, would be severely damaged by going, every week to visit his mom in prison. I mean, why would he need to go there?

The mother evidently severed her relationships when she committed a felony. And when you sever your relationships with society, your child is part of society and she gave up that right. He should not be punished by having to go spend the weekends in prison. It is not a Holiday Inn.

BATTISTA: All right. We'll take a quick break here. I'll do some e-mails when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. Bill in Florida says: "If the justice system allows a child to spend the night with a parent in prison, I say why not? It may be an example to the child of the consequences of illegal actions."

Susan in Ohio says: "A child should not be allowed to visit a prison, let alone spend the night. I shudder to think of the mixed signals this would send to the child.

Let me take Marcia on the phone from Pennsylvania. Marcia, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi. I disapprove of this altogether. This is crap. I don't care what this authority or the judges say. This is nonsense. These kids are devastated by going inside those prison cells with these parents. I have kids myself that go see their father inside the prison and my kids come home crying, all upset. There is fighting inside prisons. The only reason why my kids is because there is a court order and the court system is nothing but people inside prison. The people that do wrong, they should not be able to see their child whatsoever. They...

BATTISTA: Oops, I think we lost her there.

Carol, before the break we were talking about whether or not there were reciprocal programs for male prisoners. Nebraska, I'm presuming, does not have one -- why not?

KLOSS: There's no overnight facilities for children at the penitentiary for men, but they do have visitation. There is court- ordered visitation with children in prison is a common thing at the Nebraska penitentiary. The overnight nursery facility at the women's facility in York came about because women get pregnant in prison. They need facilities to keep children and they found that this maternal bonding with the children is beneficial to both the child and the entire prison facility. They found that the women in prison behave better when children are around. So that's how the program got started.

Now, the director of the parenting program at the women's prison would like to see reciprocal arrangements at the men's facility and in the future she hopes to start a similar program at the men's facility.

BATTISTA: Jeffery, what do you think the main opposition is to that?

LEVING: I think the main opposition, in my opinion, could possibly be gender bias. We need not to hope to give equal rights to fathers, we need to give equal rights to fathers, because paternal bond is just as important as maternal bonding. Children really need two positive parents in their lives and we need to give it to them. And if their incarcerated fathers and if overnight visitation between fathers and children is in the best interest of the children and can benefit the children emotionally, then we should do it.

But what we shouldn't do is give visitation to incarcerated mothers or fathers if it is detrimental to the children. And the only way we're going to know if it's detrimental to the children is to know their state of mind, and we're not going to learn their state of mind through a psychological evaluation of their incarcerated parents.

WEICH: No, that's exactly what the psychological testing is about. It's about testing the children, as well as the parents. And you said that it is beneficial for children to visit with their fathers, and I suggest that it's beneficial for children to visit with their mothers.

LEVING: You are twisting what I said a little bit.

WEICH: The fact that this mother unfortunately committed a crime of passion, does not deprive her of her maternal rights to these children. And...

LEVING: If it's in the best interest for the children.

WEICH: Of course, of course it should be best interest of the children.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Do you think a psychological test would have determined whether or not that woman was going to commit a crime of passion? I'm asking that. I don't know.

WEICH: I think you have no way of knowing that. I don't think that crimes of passion are predictable. I think that...

LEVING: I disagree. WEICH: Let me finish. Throughout history there have been crimes of passion, particularly when one spouse has an alignment with someone outside of the marriage. The spouse who is wronged almost always takes out his or her frustration on the the other party as well as the spouse. This has nothing to do with the children. This woman made a mistake and she's paying for her mistake.

LEVING: You're saying killing two people has nothing to do with the children.

WEICH: No.

LEVING: I don't buy that.

WEICH: Well, why should her child suffer because she made a mistake?

LEVING: She should have thought about that before killing those two people.

(APPLAUSE)

WEICH: You don't think about that when you have a crime of passion.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break and, Jeffery Leving, Cecile Weich, thank you both very much for joining us today. It's a tough story. Let me go to Ashley here quickly in the audience for a comment.

ASHLEY: I think that if you're talking about the best interest of the children, the parents will play the kids back and forth. They are raised to love their mother and father. You don't know what the mother is going to say to the child to turn them away from their father, and the long-term effects of saying, "It's OK that my mom is in prison. She killed someone because my father cared about her more."

BATTISTA: We'll talk to two psychologists when we come back, a little more about this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANDY: Hi, I'm Sandy at American University in Washington D.C. and I think that these kids' safety and development is the most important issue and I don't think that they should visit their mother in prison, and especially not to spend the night.

BATTISTA: I was interrupting our technology there. I apologize. All right, Lilian from New Jersey says: "I don't see why there would be a problem with staying overnight. She remains his mother no matter what she did."

Elaine in Nova Scotia says: "She is inconsiderate and selfish to want to bring this child into a prison. Day visits for an hour, yes. Overnight, definitely no." I want to break away from this debate for just a moment because Bill Parminter is on the phone with us. It was Bill's brother Robert who tried to come to the rescue the murder victim and for his effort he was shot in the face by Kim Faust.

Bill, I know this is a difficult discussion for you. Thank you for phoning in. What are your thoughts about this?

BILL PARMINTER, VICTIM'S BROTHER: Thanks for the opportunity. I'd like to say, I want to back up Bruce Faust on this because if I had the opportunity I would go to jail with the man because I think he is doing what I think is best.

Anyway, my brother's kids will never have the opportunity to bond with their father -- never. Shannon's kids will never have the opportunity to bond with their mother. I think it's ludicrous. My brother was in bed. He puts his three girls to bed, his wife sees a burning car off the road, he runs down to a burning car, pulls a woman out of a burning car.

This woman left the scene. She saw my brother. She came back to the scene, shot him three times at close range with a 357 in the face. Then gets out and shoots Shannon. You think this woman has any rights to see her kids? She took all away all the rights -- all my brother's rights to see his kids grow up.

BATTISTA: You are justifiably angry and upset about this and everyone certainly supports you on that. On the other hand, do you think that the child loses his right to have a mother also?

PARMINTER: First of all, I feel sorry for the young man because he doesn't understand what is going on, but is it right for him to spend time in prison? Just think of his classmates. If his classmates find out that he is in jail, you know, kids are pretty mean these days. They could make fun of him. You know, that could scar him the rest of his life. I just -- I don't think it's right. I think that the visitation is OK, but not the stayovers.

BATTISTA: All right. Bill Parminter, we thank you very much for calling in.

Let me bring two more guests into the conversation now. Dr. Helen Morrison is with us, a child adolescent and adult psychiatrist. She is a professor at Loyola University School of Law. Also Robert Butterworth, a Los Angeles child psychologist is with us. How do you two feel about this? Dr. Morrison, let me start with you.

DR. HELEN MORRISON. PSYCHIATRIST: First of all, what is the goal for keeping this child overnight? I don't think that anyone can guarantee that this woman who acted on the basis of revenge is not going to be a danger to child if she feels that she is going to gain an edge.

She is already in prison for life. What does she have to lose? The other thing is that this woman is going to be in prison for life. Maintaining contact with the mother through visitation is one thing, but forcing this child to follow through may be denying him his best interest. He is six years old. He doesn't understand about the length of time.

I agree with the other victim's brother that when this child is spending time in jail, it's not just the fact that he is going to jail. but his mother is a murderess. This was not a crime of passion. This was definitely planned and she wanted to wipe out all witnesses.

BATTISTA: Robert, I think that most people are perhaps understandably under the impression that an imprisoned mother is an unfit mother?

ROBERT BUTTERWORTH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Why as a society are we becoming so cold and cruel? Obviously the mother is being punished. We are not arguing that. But now what we are going to do is we are going to punish the child. All these victims' rights advocates are saying, now the father that was killed by the mother is dead and these children will not to be able to bond.

So because they can't bond we are going to make sure that this child can't bond. And I think that's horrible. And I think it's insensitive and anybody psychologically can't make a point against that and it's disgusting.

MORRISON: Well, I think one of the things is that they are confusing bonding with contact. Bonding occurs in an infant's life. If bonding doesn't occur within first year of life, and that has been shown in research since the early 1940s, this child is not going to thrive.

BUTTERWORTH: First of all, Doctor, loosen up a little. Remember the bond between the mother and a child. You had a bond between your mother. That is a sacred thing. All of psychological development talks about the importance of that bond.

If that child hasn't done anything wrong and the psychologists look and determine that the mother is OK, and she will not hurt the child, why should the child become a victim? Just because we are vindictive and we think that it will help the child? We are wrong. It is hurting and we are making another child a victim.

MORRISON: Let's go back. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) talked about a holding environment. He did not talk about the fact that only a mother bonds and that every mother is equivalent to every other mother. That's why we have so many issues of child abuse. We have issues of children being neglected. Bonding just because you are a biological mother is not a given fact.

BATTISTA: I want to bring Carol back in here quickly because at the crux of this is the fact that this 26 year program has been successful at this prison and none of the horrible things that we are all talking about have ever happened. Are there follow-up programs though with some of these kids that you know of that have visited their mother for long periods of time in prison and then been released, or is counseling given to these kids that visit their mothers in prison?

KLOSS: The only evidence we have as to this little boy's state of mind comes from those two inmates that we interviewed in our story. They were there the night that the little boy came in for what he thought was going to be an overnight visit with his mother, and when the father realized what going on he came and took the boy away.

And they were there when the little boy was crying and wanting to stay with his with mother, wanting to have that overnight closeness with her. It was denied and they said that he continued to call for her. That's the only evidence of state of mind we have right at this point.

As far as follow-up visits I can't comment on that. I don't know.

BATTISTA: Robert, I just -- doesn't it concern you -- it doesn't seem like anyone is watching out for the kids during this whole process because we know, you know, that when there's anger between two parents, we don't know how the parents are using those children to harm the other parent. You know, especially when it is ex-spouses.

BUTTERWORTH: I think it is important when this child is with his mother there is some kind of monitoring either by an individual or by video. But the point of this all is that it is what a child doesn't know that hurts the child, not what they know.

And having a child go into prison and see mother will not be as detrimental as not having the child there fantasizing. And we know little kids, when something happens in their environment, regardless of their fault, they blame themselves.

And the research shows. We are seeing it. There haven't been any problems. Things are working out in most cases. Let's try it -- and again, I'm not saying let's give the person in prison rights. I'm talking about another victim there could be if the child is not allowed in.

BATTISTA: Let me take Brenda in Pennsylvania on the phone quickly. Go ahead, Brenda.

CALLER: Hi, Bobbie. I called to say that there's nothing wrong with that little boy staying with his mother overnight in prison. First of all, there are guards there to watch her, and I don't believe she'd hurt her child. There are killers on the street, one living very close to me, that spends the night with his children every night. You know, I don't -- I don't understand...

BATTISTA: Wait, wait. You're confusing everybody. You mean that you have a convicted killer as a neighbor?

CALLER: Yes.

BATTISTA: And he's out of prison?

CALLER: He's out of prison. Spends the night every night with his children. You know, and who's to say what a person is going to do? Just because this woman is in prison, this little boy should be denied to see his mother? Now, come on.

BATTISTA: Brenda, thank you. Sandra, your thoughts?

SANDRA: I agree with Bobbie, what she just said a few minutes ago. If children are going to prison to visit their parents, I think there should be a follow-up. These children should be monitored, and the parents.

BATTISTA: Have to take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let's check the on-line viewer vote here quickly. The question was should Kimberly Faust's sons spend the night in prison with her? Eighty-four percent are saying no, 16 percent are saying yes.

Dr. Morrison, how do you explain to a 6-year-old about the concept of prison or the concept of murder? As I understand it, this little boy thinks of this prison as his mother's house.

MORRISON: Right. You don't explain it to a 6-year-old. A 6- year-old had very little context of putting something in abstract terms. You know, he may have been crying, wondering why his mom doesn't just come home with him. Prison and home for this 6-year-old are going to be so confusing. And what's going to be even more confusing is the fact that when he learns later, that she will never leave, that she will never be able to come home. So now all this child sees is a beginning and an end, and we can't explain those gray shades to him. He has got to be terribly confused.

BATTISTA: So, Robert, I assume you think that the mother-child bond overrides everything else.

BUTTERWORTH: Well, yes, unless the mother is a danger to the child. But back to what this other psychiatrist just said, she said that the child is going to be very confused until we explain to the child later. We have to start explaining to the child about what happened to the mother at an early age so he'll understand. And 6 is really close to 7, which is the age of reason. And I think youngsters understand good and bad.

But the point is, maybe I'm naive. I see your poll is against what I'm saying. Maybe love in our society is not as important as revenge and being vindictive. But all I'm saying is it's not going to bring anyone back to make this child suffer.

MORRISON: But we can't say that the best interest of this child is served by pretending to him that his relationship with his mother is not changed irrevocably.

BATTISTA: In the audience, Bob, your thoughts?

BOB: Well, it is a complicated case, but I think one bottom-line factor is what is best for the child. What is best for the child? It's got to be that. And so the psychological evaluations of the mom and the child -- that's where you have to start.

BATTISTA: It would seem that the history of these programs in general seems to be pretty positive, that in some cases it sort of shows that it could break the cycle of incarceration because the children of parents in prison often end up in prison themselves. I mean, there are some good benefits that come out of this. Should we put a lot of weight on that then?

MORRISON: Well, are we assuming that the bonding and the visitation is for mothers who are going to be released from prison, so that when they do leave prison they continue their relationship with their child. What about the mother or the father who is in prison forever? What's our goal? I'll go back to my original question: what is the goal of a visitation overnight?

BUTTERWORTH: There are children that are separated from their mothers for other reasons other than incarceration. It could be by distance, it could be geographical tragedies. And the bond remains. You know, to say that it doesn't matter in a cold, calculating way, and they'll get over it, is cruel and it doesn't -- makes the child a victim. That's all I can say.

BATTISTA: And here's a final thought from Alice in North Dakota, who says: "Don't sell this boy short. Whether she's good or bad, he will decide for himself. If he is denied the chance, he, too, might have psychological problems."

Carol Kloss, thank you very much. Dr. Morrison, thank you. Robert Butterworth, thank you.

And thanks to all of you for joining us today. By the way, programming note, I'll be filling in for Greta tonight on "THE POINT," so join us tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time if you can, and I'll see you again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

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