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Remembering Judy Garland

Aired June 27, 2001 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the legend endures. More than three decades after her untimely death of an accidental overdose, Judy Garland remains a symbol of soaring talent and heartbreaking tragedy. Joining us to talk about her legacy, Judy's daughter, entertainer/author Lorna Luft; the one and only Mickey Rooney, who made a dozen movies with Judy; singer/dancer/actress Ann Miller, who costarred with Judy in "Easter Parade."

Also in Los Angeles, actress Margaret O'Brien, who played Judy's little sister in "Meet Me in St. Louis." Plus, the man who did more than 100 concerts and two dozen television shows with Judy, her close friend musical director Mort Lindsey. And producer/director Norman Jewison, good friend of Judy's and worked with her on television too. And they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening, and welcome to a very special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We are back in Los Angeles with a salute to Judy Garland who died a little over 32 years ago, June 22, 1969. Hard to believe she was gone that long.

We have an outstanding panel. We are going to spend the first segment with her daughter Lorna Luft, who is the best-selling author of "Me and My Shadows: A Family Memoir, Living With Legacy of Judy Garland" and has a one-woman show, "Songs My Mother Taught Me: A Celebration of the Music of Judy Garland."

You go around country singing the songs of your mom?

LORNA LUFT, JUDY GARLAND'S DAUGHTER: Yeah, it is a show that I have been doing for about two years, like literally just got from Atlantic City last night. And it's a wonderful, wonderful tribute to her music because...

KING: There was a time I remember talking to you long time ago you didn't sing her music much.

LUFT: No. I was too scared.

KING: Why?

LUFT: I was too scared. Because it is overwhelming, it is an overwhelming legacy to be left. And I was too frightened. I don't think I was ready. I don't think that I understood it.

I don't think I was ready to embrace it. And I wasn't ready yet to become comfortable with the legacy, with the ghost.

KING: It is a ghost -- well, you weren't just the daughter of a famous person. You were the daughter of a legend.

LUFT: Yes.

KING: That's a little different, right?

LUFT: It is different. It comes with a lot of baggage. And it is not -- you didn't ask to have that with you.

So, what happens to one is that you have to learn to feel comfortable with that. And if you don't, then go into another part of the business or whatever. But it took me a long time to be friends with a ghost and be able to say "thank you."

KING: You were how old when your mom died?

LUFT: Sixteen.

KING: And you were the kid. Liza is how much older that you?

LUFT: Seven years.

KING: Seven years. So she was on in a career already. But you had not started a career, right?

LUFT: No, I had just done the Palace with mama in 1968. And we had performed in the summer together. But we hadn't really -- it was so untimely that the only thing that I really sometimes I wish I could have I could have had her for longer. We all do.

KING: Now, we know she had the problems, the emotional problems and the drugs, the drinking. What kind of mother was she?

LUFT: She was a very good mother.

KING: In spite of that.

LUFT: She was. She was a very, very good mother. I produced a miniseries that came in No. 1 for the season. And I was very happy about that. And one of the reasons that I produced that is I wanted people to know that it wasn't her fault, that I know that we hate to use the word "victim" today, but my mom was a victim.

She never had the support of a real family. She never had grounding. And she never had all of the things that we today know that you need as a child going into this business, or into any business. And she never got that.

KING: Also, drug addiction wasn't even -- there were no Betty Ford centers.

LUFT: There was nothing. There was nothing to help her. There was nothing -- we didn't have what we have today, the education, the knowledge, the facilities, and all of that. Plus, the fact you have to understand the other thing. It was given by doctors. And if it is given to you by a doctor, it makes it all right.

KING: Were all prescribed medicines she was addicted to?

LUFT: All prescribed.

KING: So she was never into heroin or illegal...

LUFT: Oh, no. Those were drugs. Those were drugs. See, when they're prescribed by the doctor, it became medication.

KING: What did she die of? What was her cause of death?

LUFT: Accidental.

KING: It was called accidental overdose, right?

LUFT: Yes. Yes.

KING: Where were you?

LUFT: I was in Los Angeles.

KING: And she was where?

LUFT: In London.

KING: How did you hear?

LUFT: I was at a friend's house. I was at girlfriend's house.

KING: Was she divorced from your dad?

LUFT: Yes. She was remarried a couple of times. And I was at a girlfriend's house. And I woke up, and my girlfriend's mom told me because she -- I went to turn on the television. And she stopped me from turning on the television or the radio or anything like that. And she sat and she told me.

KING: There were times you were apart from Liza. Are you friendly now?

LUFT: Oh, yeah.

KING: What caused that separation?

LUFT: You know, Larry, I have never said what caused that separation because that is not the important part. The important part is that we are back together.


KING: What effect did have it on your mother?

LUFT: ... way after. And my sister and I are on the right track. And that is what's really important.

KING: How is she doing?

LUFT: She's great.

KING: Someone said they saw her the other day in New York and she looks...

LUFT: Yeah. She's had a hip operation, and she's great.

KING: She was ill for a while, right?

LUFT: Yeah, she had a thing with her hip. And it was really painful.

KING: We are going to ask everybody on the panel this. And, of course, you are going to be part of a panel. How do you as the daughter see her legacy?

LUFT: How I do see her legacy?

KING: Yeah, how do you?

LUFT: Well, what's extraordinary is that as I sit, I'm doing this show "Songs My Mother Taught Me." And what's extraordinary is the range of audiences that come to see this show. And they are from little tiny kids to 13-year-olds to 14-year-olds to the older generation.

So her legacy goes on. Her legacy will always go on. And it will always touch our hearts because we will always not only have Judy Garland, but we will always have Dorothy.

KING: Yeah. Fortunate enough to see her at the Palace, one of the great...

LUFT: Wasn't she extraordinary?

KING: ... one of the great concerts of all time.

By the way, well, we'll be telling you about this later. But Turner Movie Classics is going to be featuring a lot of Judy Garland movies throughout the month of July, including "The Wizard of Oz."

We'll bring in our whole panel when we come back. Don't go away.





KING: I think she might make it. Let's bring in the rest of the pack. I guess no one is more associated with Judy Garland than Mickey Rooney. Who could forget all those great Judy Garland movies? How did you meet?

MICKEY ROONEY, ACTOR: Well, we met at Lawler's Professional School on Hollywood Boulevard.

KING: You were how old?

ROONEY: I think I was about 12.

KING: She was?

ROONEY: She was about 10.

KING: Did you hit it off right away?

ROONEY: Right away. The minute we met. And I went to the Pantages (ph)...

KING: One of the most famous pictures all time.

ROONEY: ... to see Judy and her sisters, and the Gum sisters...

KING: The Gum sisters.

ROONEY: ... The Gum sisters. And...

KING: What was the first movie you did with her?

ROONEY: I don't know. They were bringing them all out at Metro- Goldwyn in the "Andy Hardy" pictures.

KING: It was one of the "Andy Hardy" movies.

ROONEY: Esther Williams, Lana Turner.

KING: But it was one of the "Andy Hardy" movies?

ROONEY: One of the "Andy Hardy" movies. That's right.

KING: And you were close friends through her life?

ROONEY: Oh, I loved her very much. I still love her.

KING: Ann, where did you meet her?

ANN MILLER, JUDY GARLAND'S FRIEND: I met her in Lawler's Professional School.

KING: What was that?

MILLER: That was a school for children that worked. And they didn't have time to go to real schools, regular schools.

KING: Like tutors. MILLER: Like tutors, and it was great because I could take 11th grade over again if you want to know the truth about it. But it was darn good.

KING: You were all in the same age group, you and Mickey and her?

MILLER: Well, I guess Mickey was a little bit before me. But I was there. And I knew Judy.

ROONEY: I resemble that remark.


MILLER: And, my mother was a good friend of Judy's mom, Mrs. Gum. And I was actually -- Lorna, you don't even know this story. I was actually there with L.B. Mayer, Ida Coleman -- the head of the department for Mr. Mayer to discover talent. And this was a benefit held in the afternoon. And I was just a little girl. And mother took me there.

And Judy got up and sang at this benefit. And Ida had Mr. Mayer sitting in the front row. And he thought she was great.

Also, there was Deanna Durbin there that day. And Joe Pasternak was in the audience. And he thought Deanna was great. So it worked out beautifully. Judy got him to contract to MGM, which was perfect. And Deanna Durbin went to Universal and did "100 Men and a Girl."

KING: Who gave her the name Judy Garland? Do you know, Lorna?

LUFT: Yeah. It was given to her by a wonderful man by the name of George Jessel.

KING: George Jessel.


KING: He named her Garland.

LUFT: He was on the bill with the Gum Sisters. And they had been called everything, the Glum Sisters.


LUFT: It was a dreadful name.

KING: Terrible.

LUFT: And he said, "You just can't have that name anymore." And so he said, "Because you are all as pretty as a Garland of roses, well, hello." And then the popular song of the day was, of course, "Judy," the Hobie Carmichael song. So that's how she got her name.

KING: How did you to get be her orchestra leader, Mort, and arranger, conductor? MORT LINDSEY, JUDY GARLAND'S FRIEND: Well, David Beagleman (ph) called me over...


LINDSEY: Yeah. When Judy had come from Europe, she hadn't been seen for a couple of years. And she was going to do an engagement at the Concord Hotel. And they started to rehearse the orchestra over at a rehearsal studio.

And he called me. I was working with some songwriters. I had finished three years with Pat Boone, a TV show. And I was spending the time writing. And he said, "You have to come over and help us," because they were he and Freddie Fields had no clients. They had left MCA and they had...

KING: No clients.

LINDSEY: Well, they had Judy. And they had Paulie Bergen (ph), who was married to Freddie. And he said, "The orchestra sounds horrible. I'm afraid when Judy comes in, she is going to have a fit." So he said, "Come over and see what you can do."

So I went over. And first thing I said, "The drums sound terrible." So he said, "What can you do?"

I said, "Well, I'll call a friend of mine." I called Ed Shaughnessy, who was the drummer with "The Tonight Show" for 25 years. And he came over. He started to pull the orchestra together. And then Judy walked in. There is this little thing.


LINDSEY: She was in a fur coat. And was about -- you know how small she was. She was fat. And she looked like a little ball of fur came in. And I had, meanwhile, had kind of whipped the orchestra into shape.

And she listened and she started to smile. And everything was right. And then David came to me. He said, after the rehearsal, he says, "Judy insists that you go up to the Concord and do this show." And I said, "Well, I don't do that anymore. I'm not going to do singers this year." An he said, "Well, you have to do it."

So I gave him some impossible terms. And he met them. And we went to the Concord.

KING: How long were you with her?

LINDSEY: Oh, three-and-a-half years. We went to the Concord. She did the show. It was Kay Thompson. It was all these people that think, "Is she going to make it?" And she was wonderful.

And I was there with my family and two rooms and whatever. And I got paid.

KING: You got paid.

LINDSEY: Then we went on from there to do all these shows.

KING: We will ask famed director Norman Jewison how he got involved with Judy Garland and get in a full panel discussion about her and her times. She died on June 22, 1969. Don't go away.


GARLAND (singing)



KING: Live television, we're doing it now.

Norm Jewison joins us, Margaret O'Brien in a little while too. Norm was a close friend of Judy, TV producer and director, produced her once-in-a-lifetime concert with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, also produced a number of the episodes of the famed "Judy Garland Show." That's when Mel Torme was on.

NORMAN JEWISON, JUDY GARLAND'S FRIEND: That's right. I remember that particular show with Barbra Streisand.

KING: You as a movie director, I mean, you're a famous movie director. How did you get involved with Garland and television?

JEWISON: No, I started out in television. I was in live television in New York and...

KING: Frankenheimer and all this.

JEWISON: ... yeah, John Frankenheimer was the studio director. And Sidney Lumet and all...

KING: How did you meet Judy?

JEWISON: I met Judy. It was similar to Mort. David Beagleman and Freddie Fields came to see me and asked me if I would do a special with Judy Garland. I had done a special with Belafonte and another for Danny Kaye. And music was kind of my niche.

And I said, "No. She's a legend. I saw her at the Palladium in London. And why not just leave well enough alone? And I hear she did a great thing in Carnegie Hall."

They said, "No, no, television. We want to do a big television special." I was very reluctant.

KING: Really?

JEWISON: Yeah, because Judy was so way up here, you know what I mean? I was...

KING: Harry Belafonte wasn't down there.

JEWISON: ... No, but I mean, it was something special I felt. Anyway, I went over to Hadenfield, New Jersey in an ice rink somewhere on a Saturday night. And there she was.

KING: Doing what?


JEWISON: Doing a concert with Mort. And Mort was there, and just the orchestra and Judy. Freddie Fields was working the lights. And they were getting the money at the front of the door in a paper bag.

And I think what really endeared me, or what I was overwhelmed by, was first of all her performance, because she was doing the kind of Carnegie Hall concert. And she was out there alone in a pair of leotards and a little jacket.

And the people rushed to the stage at the end of the concert. And they were reaching up for her. And I felt something was really happening. And I went backstage. And Judy came in. And she was perspiring. And she was in a hockey locker room. It wasn't even a dressing room, just some black velvet...

KING: Very romantic so far, Norm.

JEWISON: ... you could smell the sweat from the hockey team. And there was Judy with the lights all around the mirror. And, she said, "How did you like the show?" And I said, "Well, you were just brilliant." And she says, "I want to talk to you about this television special. But I just have to make one call."

And they had a phone there. And she picked it up. And she called, and she said, "I would like to speak to the president, please." And she called the White House. And I'm sitting there. And my mouth dropped open. And she says, "Hello, Mr. President."

And he said, "Yes, obviously." And she said...

JEWISON (singing): ... "Somewhere over the rainbow"...


JEWISON: ... And I felt she would call President Kennedy. And she sang eight bars of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." Forget it. I'm going to do this show.


KING: You said during the break she is the best singer you ever heard.

ROONEY: I think without a doubt there will never be a voice like Judy Garland.

KING: How would you describe that voice? You sang right next to her.

ROONEY: Well, I've got news for you, Larry. How can you describe genius? I mean...


KING: Was it a natural talent?

ROONEY: It was a natural talent, I believe, don't you, Lorna?

LUFT: Yeah, I believe it was natural.

ROONEY: You can't go to a voice teacher for a voice like that.

LUFT: The thing about mama that was so wonderful was that she sang from her soul. There are a lot of people who sing. And she sang from her soul.

KING: Like you danced.


KING: We'll come right back with more. Lots more to go on this tribute to the late Judy Garland. Don't go away.


GARLAND (singing)



KING: Who was dancing there?

LUFT: I don't know, but it was "Girl Crazy."

KING: You were saying how smart she was.

LUFT: My mom was incredibly smart. And you know what else was wonderful about her, which I wanted people to really, really grasp. She was really funny. She was really funny.


LUFT: She was truly hilarious.

LINDSEY: She had a very dark sense of humor.

KING: Was she easy to work for or not?

LINDSEY: Wonderful.

KING: Was she a perfectionist?

LINDSEY: No. No. What she did -- she appreciated what you did for her or with her. And that made it easy. I worked with people that were supposed to be easy. And they weren't.

JEWISON: No, she wasn't a perfectionist. It was it was the moment. She was in the moment.

LUFT: What was funny, though, was that she really would get stage fright. She got frightened.

ROONEY: Nervous.

LUFT: She would get frightened. She would get really nervous because...


LUFT: ... no, but before on stage, on stage she would

KING: What about before cameras, Mickey?

ROONEY: Oh, she was...

KING: She loved the camera.

ROONEY: ... She loved the camera.


KING: ... an affinity for each other that came through to the viewer.

ROONEY: Yes, Larry, we did. And, in fact, our pictures grossed a lot of money, just our pictures.

MILLER: You made people a lot of money, you two.

KING: How many movies did she -- she once did, what, how many movies in...

LUFT: Fourteen movies in seven years at one point. She did altogether, if I'm correct, between 37 and 42 films.


KING: Mickey, you were a doll. Look at you, Mickey.

ROONEY: I had hair there.

KING: You did what, 20 movies?


KING: You did 20 movies once in the space of...

ROONEY: Two years.

LUFT: It's extraordinary how hard they worked.

JEWISON: How much money did you keep, Mickey?

ROONEY: Well, you couldn't keep much because we didn't make much.



ROONEY: I think we made $600 a week.

LUFT: And that is a lot of money then. That was a lot of money.

KING: They didn't think so. They thought...


ROONEY: Then they raised our contract one day. And they gave us 750.

KING: Let me get a break. And when we come back, we're going to have another great talent join us, who appeared in one of Judy's best movies, "Meet Me in St. Louis," the wonderful Margaret O'Brien, a child star in her own right. She'll be with us in a moment.

To test your knowledge on Judy Garland, or of Judy Garland, log onto our web site at We'll be right back.


GARLAND (singing)



KING: We're back with our tribute to Judy Garland. That little lady you saw, you're going to meet her in a second.

Let's reintroduce our panel: Lorna Luft, the daughter of Judy and Sid Luft, entertainer and best-selling author. Her one woman show, "Songs My Mother Taught Me: Celebration of the Music of Judy Garland" is on tour.

The legendary Mickey Rooney, hone of the giants of American movies and stage, a friend and costar with Judy, did nearly a dozen movies with Judy, and guest starred on her television show as well.

Ann Miller, one of the great dancers of all time, friend and co- star with Judy in "Easter Parade."

Mort Lindsey, Judy's close friend, musical director, worked with Judy on 100 concerts, three films, and the legendary "Once in a Lifetime" TV concert and he also did all the episodes of the "Judy Garland Show." Norman Jewison is a close friend and TV producer who produced her once in a lifetime TV convert with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, also directed and produced a number of episodes of the "Judy Garland Show."

We now add to our panel. She wasn't with us in the beginning just because of space: Margaret O'Brien, Judy Garland friend and co- star, made movies with Judy, "Babes On Broadway" and "Meet Me In St. Louis."

You got into movies at what age?

MARGARET O'BRIEN, ACTOR: I was just 4. I was 2 when I did "Babes on Broadway."

KING: What is this hat?

O'BRIEN: I will explain about this hat. This is the hat that I wore, in St. Louis when Judy and I did the cake walk, and I had always admired this hat, so, it had come about because I had first of all, wanted a red velvet dress that she wore....

KING: How old were you?

O'BRIEN: I was 7. And, I wanted the dress like Judy's -- after the movie Judy had the dress made for me, and I kept wearing this dress to the commissary where we would go to eat, the red velvet dress that Judy gave me, and two guns from "Belle Starr," and Mr. Mayer said, if I see that red velvet dress one more time from "Meet Me In St. Louis," I'm going to give you a race horse. He gave me the horse, but it started winning races so he took it back.

KING: Mickey understands that.

ROONEY: This was before he gave me one, too.

O'BRIEN: So I went to -- I went to Judy and I cried. And I said, I don't have my race horse or -- and Mr. Mayer took my red velvet dress, she said well, that is Mr. Mayer for you, but I have something else for you, and this is the straw hat from the cake walk days.

KING: What you are holding right there?

O'BRIEN: Yes, here it is, and I hope this makes up for your race horse. She was so kind and so sweet to children, and so concerned, that you were happy.

KING: What is the true story -- did she lie -- did they lie to you to make you cry? Is that a true story?

O'BRIEN: This is a strange story.

KING: Tell you your dog died or something?


KING: They used to do things like this.


KING: They told him his grandmother died.

ROONEY: Oh, sure. That was bad.

O'BRIEN: But anyway, Mr. Minelli was having a hard time getting me to cry in the snowman scene, and he said well, maybe we will tell that her dog died. And Judy said, you can't do that. I won't let you do that to little Margaret O'Brien, and Judy ran to my mother and said oh, no we could never stand for that. And my mother said, well, I know how to make her cry. Judy said, what? What are we going to do?

Well I was in competition with June Allison on the lot. And we were known as the town criers of MGM, so my mother came over to me and said, Margaret, I'll have the makeup man put false tears in your eyes, but June is such a great, great actress, and Judy is laughing on the side. She had a wonderful sense of humor. She is going, good for you, good for you. Keep on, keep on.

KING: June is better that you, right? She can cry without this.

O'BRIEN: Right. June is the greatest actress, she can cry real tears. And I said, no she can't. And then I started to cry.

KING: What was she like to work with?

KING: Judy was just fabulous. She was so wonderful to children.


LUFT: ...Funny -- what was funny, when I first saw "Meet Me In St. Louis" on television, momma looked at me at one point -- you were on -- and she said that kid had the best lower lip in the business. When you would cry. And I said, what? I didn't quite understand what she meant by that because you had this great lower lip. And when I first met you, I remember going, let me see that lower lip.

O'BRIEN: Oh, it is still there.

KING: Why did the audience, Ann, I remember seeing her at the Palace, why did audience care for her so much? She would sing -- a song that drove me nuts -- she would sing "Over The Rainbow" and you were conducting the orchestra, I think...

LINDSEY: Not at the Palace, but at Carnegie Hall.

KING: She gets to the middle of a matinee -- Alan King was the opening act on a matinee performance and she doesn't reach the note and she stops. And the audience hushes, and they bring her out water, and she finishes, and I take my friends -- you got to see her, and she does the same thing.

O'BRIEN: Everybody was pulling for her.

KING: She made them pull for her -- why?

O'BRIEN: We all pulled for her.

MILLER: Because she had a soul and a heart, exactly.

LUFT: Because we grew up with her, because everybody grew up with her, and because, you know, out of all of the movies that she did do, Dorothy, I mean, you will always relate to being able to want to go home and that is why people grew up with her and that is why they loved her.

KING: We know how great Mickey is. How great of an actress was Judy Garland?

ROONEY: She was brilliant.

KING: A great actress?

ROONEY: Great actress, very sensitive.


LUFT: Sometimes she used to do this to herself.

ROONEY: I think that was Stanley Kramer.

KING: She was great in "Nuremberg."

ROONEY: Fantastic.

LUFT: You know what she would do? Sometimes she would go, if I didn't have this. You know? Because she wanted to -- you know...

KING: An actress, not a singer.

ROONEY: Oh, yeah.

MILLER: She was a great actress. She really was.

KING: There she is in "Nuremberg," we will go to this break and be right back with more on LARRY KING LIVE on the life and times of the legendary Judy Garland. Don't go away.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here she is, ladies and gentlemen, a star that shines bright and high.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you know, this program is being broadcast all over the world, Before you sing for us, I know that your millions of fans everywhere are hoping you'll say a few words to them. Won't you?

GARLAND: Yes. Hello, everybody. This is Mrs. Norman Maine.



KING: What a line. What was it like during the deteriorating years for her, Lo? You were too young, weren't you?

LUFT: Well, I don't think I was too young.

KING: You remember?

LUFT: Sure.

KING: What that was like, when she...

LUFT: It was so -- it was...

KING: You never know if she'd be at work? Or she didn't get work.

LUFT: Well, it was hard, all right? Because she was ill. There was a lack of money, and it was very, very difficult. And now, being a mother myself with two children, I can't imagine what that must have been like for her, how frightened she must have been. And how -- how scared she must have been, and all of that.

Did you talk to her, Mickey, during those days?

ROONEY: Yes, and I...

KING: How did she hold up?

ROONEY: I tried -- I sent a football player to New York. She was in the hospital, and I wanted to get her out of there and take care of her.

KING: You said a football player?

ROONEY: Yes. Ray Pearson, played for UCLA. He's a friend of mine.

KING: What, to pep her up, or to get her out?

ROONEY: No, to help get her out. And so I called her on the phone and I said -- I said, "Judy," I said, "I've sent Ray Pearson to talk to you, see if you want to come home."

KING: What are you doing, Mickey? ROONEY: Oh, I went out of gas. I'm out of gas. I'm not talking to anybody.

KING: Your mike was on.

ROONEY: Anyway, she -- she said, "Do you think I can make it?" in that little voice.

KING: Did you know her then, Mort?

LINDSEY: Well, I was in Australia with her. And the first time that we ran into trouble was when we did a concert in Melbourne...

KING: And?

LINDSEY: ,,, then in Sydney. And that was the only time that I really felt something awful was happening, because she couldn't -- she came to me and said, "What am I singing next?" and she never did that before. She said, "What am I doing?"

KING: Did she forget lyrics?

LINDSEY: No, she didn't. She just -- was -- sick.

KING: Out of it.

LINDSEY: Yeah. And she...

KING: Did she ever do a television show out of it, Norm?

JEWISON: No, this is after.

KING: Did you know her then, Margaret?

O'BRIEN: I knew her during the happy times, but I would see her from time to time in later years. And the one thing, no matter how ill or whatever she was, a lot of stars, when you finish making a movie with them, they may not say hello to you. She always had time for you, and always time to come over if we had a dinner or something.

MILLER: I worked with her in "Easter Parade," and the first thing I knew, was she would be late on a set. But then when she was late, she always came in with a marvelous joke and got everybody laughing and so forth, and the director was not pleased. But Judy just couldn't help it. She was late, sometimes.

LUFT: But I've always felt that what happened to my mom was that -- that her talent overtook her. That she was -- her talent overwhelmed her, and that meaning that it was all -- because she was so talented, she was taken advantage of. She became ill, and it was because she was so talented that this poor little 4'11-foot person -- it just -- it just all became way too overwhelming and too much.

KING: She also made some wrong choices.

LUFT: Yes, she did. Yes, she did, but she didn't have a lot of guidance. She didn't have a lot of guidance.

MILLER: You know, I have to say something, Lorna.

LUFT: Yeah?

MILLER: Over at MGM, these are business people.

LUFT: That's right.

MILLER: And when she would become sick, you know, not feeling well, and she couldn't go on the stage, they would say to Dr. Feelgood, get her out there.

LUFT: Get her out there.

MILLER: Get her out there.

LUFT: They didn't care.

KING: Dr. Feelgood.

LUFT: They didn't care. She became a product.

KING: Give her a pill, that'll work.

MILLER: She was a victim.

LUFT: She was.

MILLER: Oh, I met him. He was...

KING: Dr. Feelgood.

MILLER: Well, we called him Dr. B, but he was still the same...

KING: Did you know him, Mickey?

ROONEY: No, I didn't...

KING: You didn't need anything.

ROONEY: You didn't fool around with that kind of stuff.

KING: We'll be right back with more on our tribute to Judy Garland, gone now 32 years. Don't go away.


GARLAND: Say goodbye, Toto. Yes, I'm ready now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then close your eyes and tap your heels together three times.

And think to yourself, "There's no place like home, there's no place like home."

GARLAND: There's no place like home. There's no place like home.




GARLAND (singing): Maybe you think you've flown before, you never left the ground!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): I'd like to try my wings once more, who wants to be...

BOTH: The best is yet to come, and gee, won't it be fun! The best is yet to come, come the day you're mine!



KING: That's Eliza. You saw an episode of her addicted, didn't you?

LUFT: Sorry?

KING: In Hawaii? Didn't you, when you were 12 years old, see your mother...

LUFT: Well I knew that my mom had a problem. I equated the mood swings and all of that and I knew, but none of us knew what to do. And she didn't know what to do.

KING: Helpless, then.

LUFT: Right, she didn't know what to do, we didn't know what to do at that point. But it was -- that was the way that it was, and it was devastating to watch.

KING: You said at one time that she didn't want to go on stage, right? Nothing wrong with her, she just didn't want to go on.

LINDSEY: Well, she was in Vegas and there was a lot of problems there. Lorna was there...

KING: Tax problems?

LINDSEY: Well, no...

LUFT: Custody...

LINDSEY: We had security guards because Sid Luft was trying to get the children back, right? And she didn't want that. So it came time to go on. She was nervous, almost afraid to leave the -- her room and everything. What if something might happen with the kids?

KING: And what happened when she went on, though, fine? LINDSEY: Always great. She only did one show a night in Vegas. Ray Bulger would do a show and then Judy would do the second show. She couldn't do two shows in a night. It's a lot of...

KING: You said you took her to the opening of "The Wizard of Oz" and she couldn't watch it?

ROONEY: That's correct, she couldn't watch it. She was so disturbed about having made it, you know, and...

KING: She knew it was a great movie, didn't she?

ROONEY: The audience didn't react well to it.



LUFT: No, "Wizard of Oz" wasn't a great -- not when it first came out. "The Wizard of Oz" became really, really famous when it came on television.

KING: It was not a hit movie?

ROONEY: No. That's the thing that hurt her. She knew that. They had worked so hard on it.

KING: Jimmy Stewart's movie wasn't a hit, right? The famous Christmas movie...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, "Wonderful Life."

KING: "Wonderful Life" wasn't a hit movie. Television made it a hit.

ROONEY: Magnificent.

KING: Well, be back with the remaining moments and get some final thoughts of each of our guests on the late Jude Garland. Don't go away.


GARLAND (singing): A foggy day, in Londontown had me low, had me down...




GARLAND (singing): Oh, I could write a sonnet about your Easter Bonnet. And of the guy I'm taking to the Easter Parade.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: Fred Astaire looking nervous, huh? You can log on to our Web site at and the answer to King's quiz will be revealed. And many of the Judy Garland films we have shown you clips from will be airing commercial free on Turner Classic Movies during the month of July, including, of course, "The Wizard of Oz" on July 3.

What are you going to remember the most about her, Ann?

MILLER: Her great talent, and her love of the business, and even though she was ill toward the end of the her life she still went out and busted her butt and did a great job on the stage. There will never be another one.

KING: Mickey.

ROONEY: I think Ann sums it up correctly. No matter how she felt, she went on and she knocked them dead.

KING: She was a good friend, too.

ROONEY: Oh, the best.

KING: Mort?

LINDSEY: Every time she sang I got goose bumps.

KING: Even while conducting?

LINDSEY: Absolutely. My back was too her, too. Absolutely. She is the greatest talent of this century, I feel.

KING: Norm?

JEWISON: I think when we did that first show, with she and Frank, and she came out all alone and sang "Just in time, you found me, just in time." KING: "Before you came, my time was running low."

JEWISON: It was pretty moving.

O'BRIEN: I think the kindest and gentlest person I ever knew and the best big sister that any child could look up to.

KING: She was that to you, right?

O'BRIEN: Yes, she was.

KING: And Lorna -- mom.

LUFT: Oh, my mom. I'm just very grateful, I'm very grateful that she was my mom.

KING: You are glad. There were times you weren't so grateful, right? LUFT: Oh, no, I was always grateful.

KING: Always.

LUFT: Always grateful.

KING: Even in the down days?

LUFT: Oh, yes.

KING: Think about her a lot?

LUFT: What do you think?

KING: This way you can't stay away, right? The movies come on.

LUFT: Yes. It is hard.

KING: Did she get -- never got to see her grandchildren, of course? LUFT: No, and one of them is here in the studio.

KING: When do you go out again?

LUFT: Gosh, September. September.

KING: With the show?

LUFT: Larry, look what you made me do. I looked at Annie, Annie started crying, then Mickey started going and I'm thinking, oh I'll just hold it together really well on this show.

KING: It's been 32 years.

LUFT: I know but listen, you never get over it.

KING: Did you ever actually say to her, "Let's put on a play?"

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's do a show in a barn.

KING: Show in a barn.

ROONEY: That was a line that became famous, "Let's put on a show in the barn." But...

KING: Did you say it?

ROONEY: Yes, I said it. And I -- there will never be another Judy Garland.

KING: Thank you all very much for a delightful hour. Judy Garland would have been -- what 79?

Lorna Luft, Mickey Rooney, Ann Miller, Mort Lindsey, Norm Jewison, and Margaret O'Brien. Stay tuned for CNN TONIGHT. I'm Larry King in Los Angeles with the whole crew. Good night, Judy.


GARLAND (singing): Once in a lullaby. Somewhere over the rainbow skies are blue...




4:30pm ET, 4/16

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