TalkBack Live

As Race Becomes Harder to Define, Will Classifications Continue to Be Necessary?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: The U.S. Census lets you choose white, Asian, black, American Indian, native Hawaiian, Hispanic. Check off as many as you like. It's now possible to create 63 racial and ethnic classifications.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think what this does is allows people to be able to have the freedom to define themselves as they truly know themselves to be, which is very likely of mixed racial heritage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: So what are you?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think a lot of times, people get -- I don't know, they want to pigeonhole you, that's all. They want to classify you. And I don't think people should do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: If America's melting pot is simmering, why bother dividing it up? Well, multiracial and ethnic groups lobby hard to keep race designations on the forms, and eliminating them would throw a curve to government agencies, which use them for such diverse reasons as awarding entitlements and formulating school lunches.

But as the lines blur, should racial designations be eliminated?

Good afternoon. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE, everyone. More than six million people identified themselves as multiracial on the last census, but have you ever wondered why the question is there in the first place? And is there still a need for it?

Joining us first today, Beth Gray, a contributor to the "Electronic News Journal, Interracial Voice."

Beth, thanks for joining us.

BETH GRAY, CONTRIBUTOR, "INTERRACIAL VOICE": Thank you for asking me. BATTISTA: How do you feel about these multiracial options that were on the census form this past time around?

GRAY: Well, I think that some of us would have preferred that there was just one multiracial box to check rather than the 63 different options. But at least it was progress from the past.

BATTISTA: Why is that -- why would that been easier?

GRAY: Because it would have prevented breaking the numbers down, placing people back into a single category of the minority parent.

BATTISTA: If I may ask, what are you? What would you have filled out on the form?

GRAY: Native American, African-American and European American.

BATTISTA: And is your heritage part of who you are?

GRAY: Oh, very much so. I'm from a multigenerational multiracial family.

BATTISTA: So do you think we should be defining people by their race then?

GRAY: No, I don't. But I think that with the history of the census and with the history of how race has been thought about in the United States, a lot of people need to go through this step of recognizing that there are no clear-cut boundaries between races before they can get on with leaving race out all together.

BATTISTA: So you view them as more divisive.

GRAY: Yes, I do.

BATTISTA: Some civil rights groups were opposed to this multiracial category in particular because they feel like African- Americans would lose influence in politics and in getting some of those entitlement programs and this sort of thing. Did you ever have any concerns about that?

GRAY: No, I didn't. I think that if the census asks the right kinds of questions that had more to do with the income of certain neighbors, the number of people there, the quality of their schools, the necessary things would get addressed without race having to come into it.

BATTISTA: Let's meet our other guests now. Hugh Price is president and CEO of the National Urban League.

HUGH PRICE, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: How are you?

BATTISTA: Good to see you. Nice to have you with us.

PRICE: Thank you.

BATTISTA: And Niger Innis is with us, national chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality.

Good to see you, too, Niger.

NIGER INNIS, CONGRESS OF RACIAL EQUALITY: Good to see you, too, Bobbie, but one correction. I'm the national spokesman. Roy Innis is still the chairman of the organization.

BATTISTA: Oh, you're absolutely right.

INNIS: That's OK.

BATTISTA: I think we made that mistake -- we keep trying to promote you.

INNIS: You're just trying to get me fired, Bobbie.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: I think we made that mistake the last time, I might add.

INNIS: That's OK.

BATTISTA: Hugh, let me start with you and ask you the same question that I just asked Beth about this concern that traditional minorities might lose some of their influence by this multiracial category.

PRICE: Well, let me say that this is a fascinating, complex issue, and there are two dimensions. One is deeply personal and the other is highly political. On the personal level, I think people have the right to say we are -- "I am of mixed heritage." If you look at me, you'd know that I'm a walking census return with lots of boxes checked, but I have checked African-American throughout my life and I will continue to, because I know there's another reality as well, and that is that race is still part of the calculus in this country. And we cannot wish away the existence of racial discrimination simply by checking multiple boxes.

There is still discrimination in the criminal justice system based on race. There's discrimination in how we invest in our public schools based on race and economic status. So I think that the picture is getting more complex. And as you look at the fact that Hispanics are of many racial backgrounds, whites increasingly may become comfortable with acknowledging their own diversity, perhaps we will move in a healthy direction, but we cannot wish away the reality of racial discrimination in our society.

BATTISTA: Niger, let me read you an excerpt from an article that was done on the new census in "USA Today." I took these two paragraphs out of here because they kind of jumped out at me. "Blacks -- wherever they live and no matter how many racial boxes they check may benefit less than others from a multiracial future some researchers say. Intermarriage is increasing and the notion of multiracial identity is becoming more common, but there's every indication that the black-white line is hard and harder to bridge." Do you agree with that?

INNIS: No, I don't. Frankly, I believe that we should have a census with the country that is becoming more and more diverse racially, not only between different races, but within each ethnic group or races. There's also tremendous amount of growing diversity, and we should recognize that, and we should be moving away, the government should be moving away from promoting a racial spoil system and moving towards solving problems amongst individuals and moving towards a one-America concept.

I think Beth was right on target when she said that when you look at questions of income, when you look at questions of bad schools, under serving a particular communities, that's not a question of race. I mean, race may be a byproduct of it, but that's a question of problems that need to be solved. So if it's a question of accurately counting, then we should be moving towards -- moving away from race- based census. I mean, if it's a question of solving problems within those communities, I think income is probably going to have far, far more to do with really solving these problems than just race.

PRICE: But we can't ignore...

INNIS: It's too much of a generalization.

PRICE: But we can't ignore the reality though that there is discrimination abroad in the land, that there's under investment in minority communities, that there is discrimination in the criminal justice system. And if you obliterate racial categories and lose sight of those realities, then I think we may see the perpetuation of the separation of opportunity according to color lines.

INNIS: The problem though, Hugh, with that analysis and with the generalization is that within each race, you have a tremendous amount of diversity. For example...

PRICE: Sure.

INNIS: ... the income of Mexican-Americans is far, far different than with Mexican-Americans of medium income than it would be for, say, Cuban-Americans. Yet there's only a Hispanic box. The income and the graduation rates, say, for Nigerian-Americans or Jamaican- Americans are going to be different than it would be for black Americans.

I think if you -- the government should move away -- I'm am not saying get rid of it overnight, but I'm saying the government should be moving and marching towards a color-blind type of census and more focused -- and not just for the census. Affirmative action dealing, with problems within our country. With the country so diverse and with the desire not to move towards Balkanization, we should be moving towards problems that really -- issues that really have more of an effect on a person's life, which is income, than it would be race.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience and get some feelings from them. James? JAMES: I don't believe that the labeling is what creates the problem. I believe that it's in the mindset of the individual. Someone said it's not what you call me, but what I answer to. When you have someone who already can look at you as opposed to look at a piece of paper, I mean, look at a piece of paper as a opposed to understand the content of your character, then that's where the problem exists.

BATTISTA: But at the same time, Hugh, that goes right to the heart of the issue of something like racial profiling, does it not? I mean, people's perception of you?

PRICE: Perception of police officers of you. There's no question that racial profiling is a fact which has to be fought. And the agenda of civil rights organizations is not to countless and perpetuate Balkanization. The agenda is full inclusion in our society and making certain that that happens. And I think that's the core. If we move away from racial classifications and inclusion becomes intuitive, and our country truly becomes integrated at every stage of American life and every facet of American life, then we will have arrived at the promise land.

Broadening the categories is a step in that direction, but we've got to broaden the opportunity structures as well and we've got to eradicate the lingering racism in our society. And you don't eradicate racism by simply putting multiple categories in the census box.

INNIS: Well, actually, we are against multiple categories, too. Frankly, the Congress of Racial Equality, under the leadership of Roy Innis fought for the right of those of mixed ancestry to have some option on the census so that they could be included and not have to disenfranchise half of their heritage or even more of the percentage of their heritage. But we are in favor of having, like Beth said, a multiracial category as opposed to a person potentially being able to pick seven different times on one census form, which is at best, inaccurate and at worst, unfair to those who just picked one category.

BATTISTA: Let me...

GRAY: I'd like to say...

BATTISTA: Yeah, go ahead, Beth.

GRAY: I'd like to say something about the concept of perception. One of the ways to break down part of the whole racist habit of thinking of the country is people should not assume, based on their perceptions when they see someone, what that person is or what that person's culture is, or how that person regards themselves. And if people are allowed to self-identify, other people are going to have start coping with that and adjusting their preconceived mindsets.

BATTISTA: Well, I think that unfortunately that does go on today.

GRAY: Of course, it goes on. But they'll have to struggle with it. They'll have to start working with it, that they cannot -- pigeonholing doesn't work anymore.

BATTISTA: Let me...

INNIS: And generalizing doesn't work. I mean, not only in the terms of the multiracial category, but there's a wide variety -- diversity within each race, within each diversity -- ethnic group. There's wide diversity. And we've got to get out of the business of generalizing. Any government that uses a mechanism to discriminate in favor of one group one day can use the very same mechanism to discriminate against them the next. We've seen it in of the past in this country.

BATTISTA: Let me bring back a comment I saw in the lower third on the screen a few moments ago, if we can. "Racism is going to exist because minorities are going to want it to." And I'm wondering if the person...

PRICE: I think that's...

BATTISTA: Yeah, I don't know where he's coming from on that other...

PRICE: I think that's a preposterous statement. I think racism exists in the eye of those who are perpetrating it. And we've certainly lived with racism, our society, which has separated us from opportunity. We live with racism in the criminal justice system. The agenda is to get fully into the American mainstream and to eradicate racism and to be able to play the game. That's what everybody wants. And when -- as that happens and when that happens, racial categories can dissolve except for purposes of personal identification, but certainly not as a matter of policy. That will be machine fine when we get there, but we ought not be naive and say that racism exists in the eyes of the victim. It exists in the eyes of the society that perpetrates it.

BATTISTA: We have to take a quick break here. As we do, a couple of e-mails. Kenneth in Texas says, "This practice is not meant to support division of any type among the American population, but rather, to help us understand ourselves and use this understanding to the betterment of mankind."

Roy in Texas says, "In the 21st century, a person's race, creed, color or national origin should have no bearing on anything whatsoever beyond their taste in music."

(LAUGHTER)

Very funny. We will have -- we will take a break here. As we do, the question today: Do you think it's time to end racial categories on the census forms? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/TALKBACK. AOL keyword: CNN. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. Let me take a phone call from Brad (ph) in Nevada. Brad, are you there?

CALLER: Yeah, I am. Hello.

BATTISTA: Go ahead.

CALLER: Yeah, I'd just like to ask real quick, won't this cause a lot of problems within certain groups simply because -- let's say you're 12 percent black and you're 12 percent of the population. If other blacks start identifying as Native American or Cuban or whatever, won't they lose like entitlements due to like government set asides or contracts? And even like if a white person was to say, "Hey, I'm actually one-fourth American-Indian," you know what I mean? Won't it cause trouble simply because everybody will basically lose more their share of the pie?

BATTISTA: Niger.

INNIS: First of all, I'm not in favor of the government promoting a racial spoil system. I believe with a country as diverse as we are, it's potentially very, very dangerous for the government to be in the business of giving out pieces of the pie according to race. But let's say that the racial spoil system was a good thing. Then there's something terribly, terribly wrong with a percentage of the population getting more than it's fair share.

Indeed, if a particular individual that normally would be classified as black or as Latino considers themselves to be white and lives their life out to be white, then, why should the black community get their percentage of the spoils? But -- for the record, for the record, I'm against the racial spoil system that exists.

PRICE: What you don't want, though, is a society of the 21st century where opportunity is stratified along color lines and you find that those at the most select institutions, with all the business contracts and all of the top jobs are all white in complexion. And as you move down the color palette, you find that and go deeper and deeper into areas of poverty and lack of opportunity, that that's more and more colorized.

That's what the battle of civil rights and affirmative action has been all about. And as we tinker with racial categories -- and I think it's fine for people who want to be honest about their heritage, we've got to make sure that we don't restratify society's opportunity structure along color lines.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience again here to Keyana (ph).

KEYANA: Keyana. I feel the same way as the caller, because even when you were younger and you started taking standardized tests -- and I always felt -- I always identified myself as black African- American, it's going to take away if we have all these different other types of African-American, African-Asian-American, African-Caucasian- American. It's going to take away from the minority term, African- American. And I do feel like that maybe minority groups would no longer be minorities because all of the groups are going to be so broken up. It's just going to be a whole big bowl of minority groups in our whole society.

INNIS: But see, the question is: Does the census reflect reality or does it not? If indeed it does not reflect reality, that we are a diverse people, not only the American people and racially between the races but within each race and within each ethnicity, there's a tremendous amount of diversity. If that's the reality, then the census should reflect that reality, not what we would hope but what is.

PRICE: I think Niger's got a very...

BATTISTA: What are we exactly? Are we a melting pot or a salad bowl?

PRICE: We are as Niger described. I mean, I had a conversation with a leading corporate executive yesterday who said, "You know, I think the high cheek bones in my face are attributable to the fact that my European father married a Native American -- or grandfather married a Native American some time back there." African-Americans are trendsetters. We have been comfortable with this issue of multiple categories and have wrestled with it for years and years.

If we move to the way when Hispanics are more comfortable with that diversity, when whites are more comfortable with the diversity in their own backgrounds, we will have made progress in promoting tolerance in our society. But we still have to make sure that we don't restratify opportunity in our society along color lines. And that could happen if we're not vigilant.

BATTISTA: By the way, we will hear an Hispanic voice -- oh, is he there? Is Larry there now? OK. Larry Gonzalez is with us now. He is Washington director of the National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials.

Good to see you, Larry. Thanks for joining us.

LARRY GONZALEZ, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF LATINO OFFICIALS: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here in such esteemed company.

BATTISTA: Oh, well, do us -- we've kind of, for the last 20 minutes or so, been talking about the value of whether or not these multiracial options should have been on the census form. Let me backtrack a little and get your opinion on that.

GONZALEZ: OK. Well, you know, it doesn't really affect the Hispanic community as much. As many of you know, there is a box to check to talk about your ethnic origin, whether it's Hispanic or Latino. So it hasn't had as much of an impact on the Hispanic community. And that's sort of a large argument within the Hispanic community.

Whether you care for the term Hispanic or Latino, that's a different argument. But what it does is it serves to unify the Hispanic community, whether you're Mexican-American, you're Puerto Rican-American, you're Cuban, the term Hispanic helps unify us in the eyes of the census bureau and hopefully in the eyes of America and in the rest of the Latino community.

BATTISTA: I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that Hispanic is not considered a minority. It's an ethnic group, correct?

GONZALEZ: That's correct.

PRICE: Well, but I...

BATTISTA: How does that work?

PRICE: Let me just say that I think around the corner for the Hispanic community is the interesting question that other ethnic groups face. And that is: Is there Castillian-white Spanish influence there? Is there -- are there Hispanics of African-American descent? Are there Hispanics of, you know, native -- not native North American but Native American descent? And will folks start to want to desegregate the way that African-Americans have in responding to the census? And I think that question is just around the corner for all groups in our society.

BATTISTA: The fact, Larry, that the Hispanic population has outpaced the African-American population in this country, what are the implications of that?

GONZALEZ: Well, I think it shows, number one, our potential. Secondly, it also means that we can no longer be ignored by mainstream America. I mean, the fact is Latinos are productive members of society. They've been here. Our political empowerment has been growing over the past two decades. And I think everyone expected the numbers to come at some point.

Obviously, these numbers have come a little bit, maybe a few years before everybody predicted they would come, which kind of shows that in 1990, there was a large undercount in the Latino community. But it also means that in every walk of life, Latinos will be included in mainstream America. In policy making and all of the decisions that the leaders in this country are making, they have to think about Hispanics.

INNIS: But here's the problem in generalizing. The fact of the matter is that the problems and the issues that persist in the Cuban- American community might be quite different than it would be for the Puerto Rican or the Ecuadorian-American community. And that's the problem with too much generalization that goes on with the census.

PRICE: But the reality is that the Hispanic presidents -- presence, as was indicated, is really woefully -- there's woeful under representation in all of those areas of American life, and that's got to be addressed. The census trend that's being reported was spotted a long time ago. For African-Americans, it means that we've got to focus increasingly on the fundamentals of solid education for our children, business creation, wealth accumulation so that we're sure that we are adding value to society and not perceived as deficits in our society. GONZALEZ: I agree with what the other gentleman said in terms of there is diversity within the Hispanic community. I mean, what a Cuban may like, a Mexican may not like. And we often talk about that in terms of politics. The Hispanic vote is not a monolithic vote. I mean, there are certain issues that are the same and obviously Hispanics care. When they hear politicians talk, they want to have the issues addressed. We had a tremendous impact on the vote this year in 2000. We're going to continue to grow politically. We're very excited.

And as far as the racial aspect of it, when you talk about it, I think it's more about proud for the Hispanic community to identify that you're a Mexican-American. If anyone has ever experienced whether it's the Puerto Rican parade in New York or the celebration of Mexican Independence Day in September, there's that sense of pride. And I think the marking of the racial -- different races, whether you're Mexican again --and I have friends that are Mexican, Cuban and Puerto Rican. That's more really about pride for our community than anything.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break here. We'll be back in just a moment. And what is it Tiger Woods calls himself? Caublanasian?

PRICE: Comblanegro (ph) or something like that.

BATTISTA: Caublanasian.

In a moment, why some people resist the pressure to be labeled. We'll be back.

ANNOUNCER: Seventy-four percent of people between the ages of 18 and 29 think it's good for the country that people consider themselves multiracial. Forty-seven percent of people 65 and older agree.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: The four most common racial combinations on census replies were white and black, white and Asian, white and American Indian, or Alaska native, or white and some other race.

BATTISTA: E-mails that are coming. Tai Lee (ph) in Rhode Island says: "It's been a long time coming. I'm a person of numerous ethnic backgrounds and support the direction that the census is moving with the check-all-that-applied format."

Carl (ph) in California says, though: "I don't understand why the census bureau splinters blacks as African-Americans, Nigerians, Jamaicans, et cetera. I am one of each African type. Why divide us?

Harley (ph) says: "Flip Wilson said it best. We may have come here on different ships, but we're all in the same boat now."

Remember when Tiger Woods won the Masters back in 1997 and he refused to claim one heritage over another and labeled himself Caublanasian? Hugh, he caused quite a stir with that. There were people who were angry with him because he didn't claim particularly the African- American race. Why is that?

PRICE: I think Tiger was perfectly entitled to say, "I will not disclaim any part of my heritage." I mean, to say that he is African- American but to deny the fact that his mother is Thai is wrong. I think each individual is entitled to stake a claim based on their understanding of their background. How that then translates into public policy is different. If Tiger were in a cab or on the streets of Brooklyn late at night having an encounter with a New York City police officer, he would know what race he's partially a member of. And that's why we have to keep looking at the combination of personal choices, which this entails, but also the public policy implications of racial categories.

BATTISTA: Beth, do you agree?

GRAY: I don't know. That may be true. That wasn't the point that I wanted to bring up though. In talking about the Hispanic- Latino experience in the United States, I was wondering, despite their various national countries of origin and their particular take on their Hispanic-Latino culture and heritage, they've had a long and complicated history of interracial mixing that's been somewhat easier than in North America. And I was wondering how they can bring something positive out of that to teach the United States about its own multiracial history.

GONZALEZ: Well, I think that the Hispanic community has always been part of mainstream America and want to be accepted by mainstream America. When you talk about some of the hardest working people in America, those -- I like to use an example of what would happen to the United States economy if tomorrow, the janitors, the people who clean up the offices, the people who cook, the people who clean, suddenly decided to go on strike. What would happen to the economy? It would come to a standstill. The fact is the Hispanic community is part of mainstream America and they're going to continue to be part of mainstream America as some of most productive people in America.

PRICE: Let me just add though, that if you go to some South American countries like Brazil, for example, you hear about the myth of the great melting pot and how race doesn't matter, but you look at how the opportunity structure is stratified and it's quite strictly along color lines. So categories matter but so does policy and so does how we manage our opportunities.

GONZALEZ: I think sometimes it comes down to skin color as well. For instance, the largest Spanish news station is Univision. And they play what are called a Mexican soap opera, tela novellas (ph). And if you take a look at the novellas on that station, the majority, probably, 99 percent of the people there are blond and blue-eyed. People might watch those shows and say these are Latinos. These are Mexicans or these are Cubans or whoever they may be representing. So there is even within the Hispanic community a preference for a lighter skin. INNIS: Well, we've had that problem in the black community, too, but it's a self-imposed problem. And I think we're being quite naive if we're going to believe that the federal government is going to solve that probable that we all must solve within our own racial groups.

PRICE: Niger...

INNIS: If indeed there are preferences within a particular racial group, then indeed, that is an intra-family discussion and debate that needs to be had. But we're being quite naive if we're going to believe that the federal government is going to come and through fiat and solve that particular problem.

BATTISTA: We should, just as a footnote, we should say that the Brazilian government did get rid of their racial categorization on their census forms. It got so confusing. They were up to like are up to 400-plus, you know, different types. And they finally just concluded that everyone in Brazil is mixed.

PRICE: Except when you look at who occupies what positions in Brazil and you are quickly reacquainted with color in that society. And I think it's naive to think that, you know, these are self-imposed limitations. I mean, that flies against the entire face of history in our society. We have to fight against it. Our country is working on it. We've made more progress than any other society on earth but we ought not be naive about certain realities.

INNIS: Well, Hugh, what I'm saying is that when we have intra- racial discrimination, that is self-imposed. I'm not talking about racism between the races. I'm talking about within one race. That can often be self-imposed.

BATTISTA: I've got to take another quick break. And then, Rich, I promise I'll get to your comment. We'll be back right after the news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. Let me go to the audience quickly, since I've been putting Rich off here for a couple of segments.

Go ahead.

RICH: Well, my feeling is that the -- it's the economic reality not the racial issue that's really the most important. If we poured our nation's resources into the needs of schools, neighborhoods, communities, where we need to be developing economic opportunity, then I believe that the racial designations become less and less important because that's really what we're about as a country, equal access to economic opportunity.

INNIS: He's 100 percent right. That's exactly what I've been trying to say, is that if you're going to generalize, if the government is going to use any mechanism and generalize, then it should do based on economics and move away from generalizing on the issue of race.

Listen, more than -- a little more than a hundred years ago, we had the period of reconstruction within our country, when the government used race-based solutions to solve problems for the black American community. Within 20 years of the start of reconstruction, that very same government used Jim Crowism against that same minority that it was originally trying to help. The government should be out the business of promoting a racial spoil system. We should solve problems but not be in the business of giving racial rewards.

BATTISTA: I think some people -- a lot of e-mail that I'm getting, I think some people are equating with if you lose the racial labeling, then you're losing the heritage or the culture. I've had a couple of e-mails to this nature. Dan says, "Racial statistics are important to a multi-cultural society such as the U.S. You seem to forget that race is also a method of maintaining culture."

Skip in New Jersey says, "The important thing is to teach everyone about their heritage in a manner that makes them understand and take pride in who they are. Trying to eliminate that distinction is ridiculous and quite dangerous."

GONZALEZ: I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know, I grew up in a traditional Mexican household where we were taught, you know, about our culture, about the history of our country. My parents emigrated here from Mexico and I think that's very important. I think if you see the tradition of the immigrant communities in this country, whether it's Irish-American, Italian-American, it's a very prideful community who, while obviously they have a foot solidly in America and are contributing to America, they also have not forgotten where they come from and they're proud of being Italian-Americans or Irish- Americans much in the same way that Latinos are proud of their heritage.

BATTISTA: Let me get Beth in here quickly, because I know she has to go and I just was curious as to where you think we're headed in the future, Beth.

GRAY: That's really hard to say. I think that the debate over the multiple box checking will hopefully ultimately lead to one multiracial identifier so that people like me don't have to be socially invisible anymore and treated as something -- some kind of aberrant happening, since there are so many thousands more children, especially here in California, of greater and greater diversity being born every day. And then maybe from a multiracial identifier, we can finally move on to not having to use race at all.

PRICE: Let me just that I think that if we look past first generation multiracial to generations of multiracial as is my case, for example, that this isn't a one-generation phenomenon, a matter of who's the product of mixed marriage. The African-American community is incredibly diverse along racial lines. We need to be proud of our ethnic heritage. And I think that if as is the case African-Americans are trend setters in this regard, then I think that Americans of all races and complexities may become more open about their backgrounds, and in so doing, we may become a more tolerant society as a result of that. We must be watchful that we don't allow the opportunity structure to be stratified along color lines which can easily happen if we become less than vigilant on that issue. It'll be the natural order of things to stratify along color lines. That's happened all over the world.

BATTISTA: I've got to take another quick break.

And Beth Gray, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate your comments and your insight on this today.

GRAY: Thank you, for inviting me.

BATTISTA: We'll be back in just a minute. And Boris on the phone in Florida, hang on. I'll bet to you when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Iowa's population, 96 percent white, grew 3.3 percent in the 1990s compared to 9.6 percent for the rest of the nation. Governor Tom Vilsack hopes to bring in more young people and workers by encouraging immigrants to settle in Iowa. He opened two new Iowan centers to provide immigration and employment information.

BATTISTA: All right, Boris on the phone in Florida, go ahead.

CALLER: Yes. I'm talking to this country. I never had a racial census. I never considered myself any other race than human. That was taught to me from the beginning of my life until I came here. I was 13 years old. I have a godfather that is not Hispanic, a Chinese grandmother from my father's side. My other father was black and my grandmother was French. I'm married to a Dutch girl and I have two sons. I'm wondering all the talk you're having is what should I tell my sons what are they?

PRICE: American.

CALLER: The question that I have is that my values are the same values that my wife has. They don't change. I teach my children same thing. I'm Cuban, I'm Latin, and I teach them the same thing that...

BATTISTA: Well, you're getting at something, Boris, that, you know, ideally we'd all like to be there. And that's where, you're right, we're all Americans first.

How close are we to that Hugh?

PRICE: I think we're easing toward that. And I think that's a great thing for this country. And the goal is for all of us to get there and for all of us to be a part of every part of the American game of life. And we can't be naive about certain realities, but we certainly have to continue to push there. And I want to see all Americans become much more forthright about their own diversity and to understand that this is a complex society, and that we want to be sure that everybody has a chance to participate in all facets of society and aren't denied opportunity based on the color of their skin or their backgrounds. And that can happen. INNIS: Bobbie, one of the things we haven't talk about, a dangerous trend that I see among my generation and younger, black Americans is more and more of a political and cultural isolation. And that's very troubling, because even though there are more opportunities available to my generation, thanks to the workers of brave civil rights leaders -- and I include Hugh Price among those leaders, my father and others -- they have broken down the barriers of discrimination. Yet in many of our urban centers, there is more and more of a young, angry, culturally isolated black America.

And we should not -- the government should not be in the business of facilitating that cultural isolation. So while I agree with you, we must be vigilant on the issue of racism. And I applaud the work that the new attorney general, John Ashcroft, is moving forward on racial profiling and ending racial profiling. While we must be vigilant, we should not permanently handicap young black children or young minorities perpetually enforcing victimization and telling them and communicating to them that you can not achieve because of your race while protecting against racism.

PRICE: I certainly don't think we should perpetuate it either, and I think it's a grave mistake for young people to isolate themselves. This is a society where opportunity is going to open up. And thanks to the changing demographics, opportunity will be more widely available than ever before in the history of our society and probably than any society. But we've got to make sure that those doors stay open.

GONZALEZ: And I agree with that totally. I think there's a number of young Latinos that are looking for opportunities, to come to Washington, D.C., to go throughout the country and help their communities, and be productive members of society. What we try to tell our young Latinos coming up is that you're a professional, you're an American first who happens to be of another culture, can bring a sense of diversity to a corporation or wherever you may be working, and who also happens to be bilingual and brings a certain, again, as I mentioned, diversity to that company.

BATTISTA: Let me go to...

PRICE: Let me just add a point if I could. But for immigration, New York City would not be the vibrant city it has been throughout its history and certainly not today. New York City was struggling a couple of decades ago, but thanks to immigration, people coming from all over the word, New York City is an amazingly vibrant and strong city today. So immigration, the entrance of people of color, the inclusion of people of color is a great, great asset to our society.

GONZALEZ: You know, the other part of this also is I think this whole announcement of Hispanics and the growth and the explosion of Hispanics in America, it also serve as a very positive thing for our young people to see, as it was mentioned, this isolationism. But I think when you start to see Latino professionals working throughout the country, on television, and obviously, that's another argument where we do need to increase the diversity on television and networks and so forth, but it's an exciting time for the Hispanic community. And you're going to start seeing more and more young professional, successful Hispanics all over this country.

BATTISTA: We have to take another quick break here. And we'll check the online viewer vote when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let's check the online viewer poll. The question today was: Should race designations be erased from the census? And here's what you guys all had to say. Sixty-six percent said yes, 34 percent are saying no.

Constantino (ph), are you Greek?

CONSTANTINO: No, Italian-American, I guess.

BATTISTA: Yeah.

CONSTANTINO: I think we need to focus on education. When you come into the world, like I said before, you don't think any way. Of course, you're just born but you don't see children in preschool name calling. They don't care. They're there to have fun and learn. There's a break down from that point to elementary school, junior high, high school. There's so much tension, hate crimes, everything else.

We need to take some of this money in the country -- I don't know what Bush is going to do with it. But we need to take some of this money, put it back into the schools and not just have a history class or American cultures. We need to have specifically who you are, what you were 500 years ago, and where we are now, because we all came from one country at one time or another, whether it was Africa or somewhere over there. And, you know, America was only discovered in 1492.

BATTISTA: Well, you know, speaking of that, here's food for thought. We just got an e-mail from Pearl Duncan (ph), who is author of the book, "DNA Dawns." And she says: "Geneticists say we are all multiracial, for we all have a common human ancestor." Shall we look at it that way?

PRICE: That is the bottom line.

INNIS: And government should be in the business of facilitating the idea that we are one people, we're all Americans, one America, equal opportunity. It should not be in the business of creating a racial spoil system so that people are forced to choose one race because they might get preferential treatment or choose another race. Let's be in the business of moving towards a color-blind society.

BATTISTA: All right, that'll have to be the last word, gentlemen. I'm so sorry, I'm out of time. But Hugh Price, Niger Innis and Larry Gonzalez, thank you all very much for joining us today. Great discussion.

PRICE: Thank you.

GONZALEZ: Thank you. BATTISTA: And make sure you're here tomorrow for "Free-For-All Friday." We're going to test the new cast of CNN's "Take Five," so you get to meet them and join the fun. And we'll rake them over the coals. That's at 3:00 Eastern. We'll see you then.

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