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Crossfire

Is Cheney Really in Charge?

Aired March 7, 2001 - 7:30 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've got a job to do. The president asked me to do it. I'll do it as long as he's comfortable having me do it and I feel like I can make a contribution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Tonight: Vice President Dick Cheney goes back to work. Is it too soon? Would President Bush be able to get by without him?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington: CROSSFIRE.

On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE: Democratic Congressman Robert Wexler from Florida and Republican strategist Ed Gillespie.

NOVAK: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Dick Cheney got out of the hospital yesterday but he didn't go home to laze around, after undergoing a medical procedure to clear an artery. The vice president sure didn't act like a cardiac patient who suffered his fourth heart attack last November. Today he lunched with President Bush and South Korea's visiting president, Kim Dae-jung. He met with House Republicans and then talked to reporters.

But nagging questions are being asked in Washington. Is Vice President Cheney fit to serve? Is the White House putting out the whole story about his health? And just how dependent on Dick Cheney is George W. Bush?

Bill Press.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Ed Gillespie, clearly Dick Cheney is a man who loves his job. I'd even say he's doing a good job, but he is a man who's 60 years old...

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: It's early in the administration. He's 60 years old. This man has got a problem heart. He's had it for a long time. He's had four heart attacks. Just Monday he goes in for another tuneup. He is sedated, he has this invasive procedure. He spends the night in the hospital.

I mean, don't you think that the entire nation would breathe a little easier if he just took a couple of days off to make sure he's OK?

ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, Bill, fortunately we live in a time where heart condition is not the grave matter that it was say, in 1971. It's 2001. People all the time have heart treatments and go back and work day after day.

My father had a heart surgery when he was 70 years old -- that was nine years ago. We're playing golf next month. And he worked every day until his retirement at the age of 76. So I think that most people today know people with a heart condition. They know that you can, indeed, work. And that it is not a problem in terms of his job performance.

PRESS: Well, my father has gone through a few of those, too. He's in great shape today, glad to say. But he also took some rest after each one of them.

Well, if the vice president is indeed in such good health for a man with that heart condition that could be expected to be, then what I want to know is: why won't he release his medical records? Al Gore did. Joe Lieberman did. George Bush at least released a summary of his, but again yesterday, the vice president's office said he refuses to release his medical records. Why not, Ed? What's wrong here?

GILLESPIE: Well, of course we know everything from the doctors about the condition that we're talking about right now, but it's not unusual. As you know, President Clinton didn't release all of his medical records. There's a zone of privacy that public officials are entitled to have, and Vice President Cheney is entitled to that as well as anyone.

NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, the vice president, after he got out of the hospital for this very minor procedure, commented on how he felt, and let's take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: I'm having the time of my life. I enjoy the job very much. I love working for George Bush. We've got off to a great start. The stress level is a lot tougher when you're doing something you don't like, like being a reporter or a journalist.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Now, I know that even -- even below the level of likability as being a Congressman, the kind of job you have, mucking around with the voters and all, I know you couldn't understand how much fun that is. But this is -- can you appreciate this is a guy with a sense of humor who feels good? He doesn't look like he's ready for retirement, does he?

REP. ROBERT WEXLER (D), FLORIDA: Oh, no doubt, just the opposite. I mean, Vice President Cheney is running economic policy for the White House, he was in chain of transition team. He's in charge of Congressional relations. He's certainly a coequal or better with Colin Powell on foreign policy. He's in charge of the California energy policy.

The issue isn't: Is Dick Cheney fit to serve? Certainly he is. The issue is: Why is he a co-president? Why isn't George Bush in charge?

NOVAK: I hate to disappoint you, Congressman. We're going to discuss that in the second half of the program. And we make up -- we decide what the issues are.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I don't think you understand that, but we're talking about his health right now.

WEXLER: Yes, yes.

NOVAK: And I want you to listen to what a doctor has to say about his health.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JONATHAN REINER, V.P. CHENEY'S CARDIOLOGIST: What we tell all our patients after an uncomplicated procedure like this is -- we routinely send them home the next day, and then often they return to work the following day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: So that's his doctor. So he was ready to go to work, wasn't he?

WEXLER: He was. But, you know, it's interesting. If Walter Mondale had a health issue or Dan Quayle had a health issue, I bet you CROSSFIRE wouldn't be having a show about it. But you're having a show about it because in fact, it's a real issue -- why?

NOVAK: Oh. I get it...

WEXLER: Because Dick Cheney is running the government.

NOVAK: As I told you, we're going to discuss that a little later. You sometimes don't get the message, Mr. Wexler. But I guarantee you, and I think even Mr. Press will agree, if Mr. Mondale and Mr. Quayle had a problem we'd be having a show about it. Wouldn't we?

PRESS: Well, we probably would. I have to agree with you on that one. But I want -- I want to pick up on that. And, you know what? I want to come back with the same doctor here in just a second. But, you know, I was amused that Bob Novak was sort of echoing, I'm sure unintentionally, the White House spin: this is just routine. This is just precautionary.

I want to bring Dr. Reiner back and hear what he had to say yesterday about this procedure -- puts a little different spin on it. Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REINER: I would classify this more as -- you know, less as emergent and more, sort of, as an urgent procedure. I mean, it's -- it's a significant procedure in that it is a -- it is an invasive procedure, so every procedure that is -- that we classify as an invasive procedure, I would classify significant.

PRESS: Urgent, significant -- I mean, the White House was really wrong to downplay this as just no big deal, weren't they, Ed?

GILLESPIE: Everything the White House said was a representation of what the doctors were telling them. And the fact is, look, this is -- anyone who thinks that this is stress-related -- I'm not a doctor and I'm not going to play one here on TV, but...

(LAUGHTER)

GILLESPIE: But the fact is that this is a routine procedure that occurs often after the kind of procedure that Vice President Cheney underwent in November. The scarring of tissue in the heart is not a result or indicative of stress.

WEXLER: Yeah, but there is a history here of the Bush administration not being forthright. First time around...

GILLESPIE: I disagree with that, Bob. That's not...

WEXLER: President Bush didn't even recognize that Vice President Cheney had a heart attack. This time around, you would think that Vice President Cheney went in to get a splinter removed.

You know, I mean, it's still a heart issue, as serious as it is. And when the man is running the president of the United States, he's got a co-shared presidency, this is critical stuff.

GILLESPIE: All right. Well, first of all, when we come back from the break we'll talk about the co-shared presidency thing, but in the meantime...

(LAUGHTER)

GILLESPIE: How'd I do? But in the meantime, the fact is that the White House did not mislead anything. In these -- in these situations where there's information moving very quickly -- you and I have both been in situations like that -- you try to get out the information as you have it. You're relying on people from a hospital to get you information, and for you to, in turn, convey that. The hospital here, and the doctors, did not want to be the ones to go forward and deal with the media on this. Understandably, they're busy doing other thins. And so they're conveying -- it's a little bit like playing telephone, and you convey information as you get it. And -- and -- But to accuse them of misleading the public, I just think it's flat off the mark.

(CROSSTALK)

WEXLER: Well, no, I'm not accusing -- I'm not accusing the doctors, and it certainly shouldn't be the doctors who are forthright with the American public. It ought to be the administration.

PRESS: And they haven't.

WEXLER: And no one's asking for Mr. Cheney's personal records. But the...

(CROSSTALK)

WEXLER: His health issues -- his health records related to his heart condition is now a very important public issue. The man is running the country.

GILLESPIE: And a very public issue. We're talking about it right here.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Now, I'm not a doctor, either, but I'm a spin doctor, and I'll play heart doctor here to the sense that I did talk to my cardiologist yesterday about this...

NOVAK: How you doing?

PRESS: And I talked to -- Bob, you'll be disappointed to hear that I'm doing OK.

NOVAK: Very disappointing.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: And I listened very closely to Dr. Reiner. Both of them said the same thing: that with this stent, you can expect this narrowing to recur every three, every four months. Just like he was there in November, they put it in, now he's back.

So the American people have to face up to the probability, or possibility, certainly, that Dick Cheney is going to be going back to George Washington Hospital every three months to get his heart repaired. What does that image say about his ability to do the job as vice president?

GILLESPIE: First of all, not having been afforded the briefing by your cardiologist, I'll take you at your word on that. But, look, the fact is, that the question before is: does this in any way impede Vice President Cheney's ability, or his performance on his job? And clearly it's not. We are seeing that today and we're going to see it three months from now, six months from now, a year from now.

NOVAK: Congressman -- Congressman Wexler, maybe you can straightened out something for me since Bill is so upset about the failure to submit the medical records. Did President Clinton ever submit his medical records?

WEXLER: My understanding is every time he went for a medical checkup, you knew everything about him.

NOVAK: No, no. Did he ever submit as --

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Just a minute. Just a minute. Did he submit, as Bill is suggesting that Cheney should do, his whole medical records? The answer is no.

WEXLER: But he did submit a whole host of medical records... .

NOVAK: Not his whole records.

WEXLER: And I think what people are asking about is, simply, what is the heart condition?

And why is relevant? If Dick Cheney was just a regular vice president -- if he had the ordinary vice president's schedule of going and christening boats and things of that nature...

NOVAK: We're going to talk about that...

WEXLER: It may not be that critical. But he's got the schedule of the president this time around.

NOVAK: Now, I know you're a great student of history. I'd like to give you a historical example. What would you think of a president who had a severe stroke that was kept secret from the public. He was re-elected and he was sent into an international conferences where -- as an invalid, where he gave away the position of the United States. Would you think that was a proper way to handle this -- this kind of an issue? Do you know what I'm talking about?

WEXLER: I can take a guess, but what does that have to do with Dick Cheney's...

NOVAK: Who am I talking about?

WEXLER: Is it the gentleman before Roosevelt back there, right?

NOVAK: No, I'm talking about Roosevelt, Franklin D. Roosevelt. So isn't it -- I mean, when I look at the openness of Cheney, I -- can't you compare that with the almost criminal secretness with which they treated Roosevelt's stroke?

WEXLER: Well, it's a different world, and yeah, in today's world it's obvious that a lot of health issues related to Franklin Roosevelt would be handled much differently. But what's the point? The point is...

NOVAK: Well, I knock Roosevelt whenever I can. That's the point.

WEXLER: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

But -- but...

PRESS: All right. You've got his agenda now, right?

WEXLER: That's right.

PRESS: At least he's honest about it.

All right, gentlemen, we are going to take a break. And when we come back, we promise we'll get to that forbidden subject: Has Dick Cheney taken on so much responsibility he is in fact the shadow president?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Every administration adopts its own management style, but Washington has seldom seen a vice president given as much responsibility or visibility as George Bush has given Dick Cheney. In light of this week's repeat heart problem, even some of Cheney's friends reportedly are suggesting maybe he ought to cut back. He doesn't think so. He was on the Hill today selling the president's tax cut.

Tonight, taking measure of how well the new team is working and who's really doing the heavy lifting, Republican strategist Ed Gillespie of South Jersey, and Congressman Robert Wexler, Democrat from Florida -- Bob.

NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, you -- this is a subject you really want to get in. You must have gotten your talking points from the Democratic high command. But I would -- I would like to quote somebody who really knows about this subject, a fellow named Richard Cheney. And let's put what he said right -- right up on the screen.

He -- this is describing his own position. He said: "I don't set policy in the administration. The president does. What I get in return for serving is I get to put my views on the table and make my case and my arguments. But in the end, he makes the decisions, and I salute smartly and do everything I can to help him succeed on his views."

Doesn't he know better what he's doing than you know? WEXLER: Mr. Cheney is a very humble man, and what else would he say, Bob? The facts speak for themselves. Who did the transition? Dick Cheney. Who's running the budget? Dick Cheney. Who was the appellate processor when all the Cabinet members came in to talk about the budget numbers, which decisions never even got to the president? Dick Cheney. Who's running the California energy program? Dick Cheney. Who was the intermediary between Colin Powell and Rumsfeld? Dick Cheney.

What is George Bush doing? I mean, it's a legitimate concern that the American people have.

I'm not faulting Dick Cheney, but I think the legitimate question is why does George Bush rely so much on Dick Cheney. And that's why, unfortunately, with Mr. Cheney's health issue it becomes very relevant.

NOVAK: Now, I let you have your say. And now...

WEXLER: And you're very kind to do so.

NOVAK: You're welcome. And I'm going to cast aspersions on you now, because I know what you're up to. You're a very partisan guy who tried to steal the election in Florida for the Democrats.

WEXLER: No, not at all.

NOVAK: And you're -- and you're very upset, Mr. Wexler, that you have a reprehensible former president who people are disgusted with. And President Bush's popularity ratings are rising very high. And so what you're going -- what you're trying to do is to use this unfortunate medical incident to say, "He isn't really president, a sick man is president." Isn't that what you're up to?

WEXLER: No, because all of these things occurred well before Mr. Cheney checked into the hospital again. The issue once again, Bob, is not Dick Cheney's health. The issue is why is he the co-president, why isn't the president exercising control in the presidency. And unfortunately, once again, Dick Cheney's health becomes the issue because he is running the government.

PRESS: Ed Gillespie, I don't want to go through the whole litany of Dick Cheney's responsibilities again, which I could, but to save some time. But I do want to ask you the question which comes at the end of it. When he's not at Camp David, when he's not down at Camp Crawford, Texas, what is George Bush doing?

GILLESPIE: George Bush is setting a very positive agenda for the American people. He's promoting his reasonable and responsible tax- cut plan that's going to provide to the average family of four, Bill, $1,600 in tax relief. Not that may not be enough, a lot in Washington, D.C., but a $133 a month in higher take-home pay is a lot to the average taxpaying family.

He's putting forward an agenda, a positive agenda on education, on Medicare, and across the board. PRESS: Talk about getting the talking points, but haven't we in fact -- the other night on Friday night on "THE SPIN ROOM" Democratic strategist Mark Siegel was our guest, and I think he really put his finger on how this administration is governing. We've adopted maybe a different system of government than we've seen before in this country.

Please listen to Mark Siegel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK SIEGEL, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It looks like we've adopted a parliamentary model where Dick Cheney is -- is the prime minister running the government on a day-to-day basis and -- and George Bush is Queen Elizabeth, waving to the crowd.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: I mean, like that's the way it is, right? You say he's setting the agenda, but Dick Cheney is carrying out the agenda and setting it ahead of time.

GILLESPIE: That's not the way it is.

PRESS: George Bush is waving to the crowds.

GILLESPIE: That's the way -- that's the Democratic talking points.

PRESS: That's all there is to it.

GILLESPIE: But they're not accurate.

You know, I have an insight that no one at this table has, because I've actually worked for President Bush during the campaign. And anyone who has worked in a Bush organization knows this is a very effective manager who sets clear priorities, gives direction. And anyone who's ever drafted a set of talking points that weren't quite up to par knows how engaged this president is.

You know, the notion that someone else is running this government is just a disservice.

WEXLER: With all due respect -- and you're right, I have never worked for President Bush. But the transcripts of the few conversations that we know of with foreign leaders suggest that President Bush has very superficial conversations with foreign leaders on the telephone. The instances, the few instances he's had impromptu discussions, either with elected officials or without the script, it's very superficial, his answers, very limited on detail.

I grant you, he gave that speech to Congress. He read it very well. He smiled very well. It was written well. But when you see George Bush acting on his own, unfortunately so far it's been very limited in terms of detail or insight or intellectual curiosity.

GILLESPIE: That is flat-out contradicted by anyone who's been in meetings with this president, including members of your party, Congressman Wexler, who have been there, talked to him about education policy, about economic policy, about defense policy. And they all even say this guy takes command of a meeting and takes command of a room, and the fact is he does.

NOVAK: Have you ever talked to him, Mr. Wexler?

WEXLER: No, I have not, not one-on-one.

NOVAK: So you're really -- you're really an expert on him and whether...

WEXLER: Well, I watch him. I watch him. I mean, you see him just like everybody else. But I'll tell you at the Democrat caucus, when he was questioned, when he made analogies between his abortion policy and his faith-based policy and he was questioned, the president looked dumbfounded.

NOVAK: Well, he don't know he was going to get ambushed; that's how mean spirited Congresswoman Maloney of New York... WEXLER: Ambushed? Asked the president about his two principal policies of the first week is an ambush?

NOVAK: That's what I wrote and I will stick by it. Congressman Wexler, I feel like I'm reliving the past; we had a great president, naming airports and aircraft carriers after him and schools; everybody thinks he was a great president. And 20 years ago -- 20 years ago, I heard the same crap from people like you that he was the president and you know who the prime minister was? James Baker. They said, James Baker is the prime minister.

When you got these micro managing presidents -- Democratic presidents like Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton who damn near wrecked the country, you can't understand a president who is a leader and not a micro manager, can you?

WEXLER: No, what I'd like to see is a president that can express his vision to the country without having a card to read it off and I think it's a legitimate issue when he constantly relies upon the vice president; every meeting with a foreign official of any import, Mr. Cheney is there and that's why, back at the beginning of show, the health issue is so relevant.

PRESS: I just want to give you the thoughts of someone who's an unidentified Cheney friend in the "Daily News" this morning. So we're not talking about the Democratic strategist here.

"Bush has given him every tough job in the world and the stress of that is contributing to these problems. If it were me, I would go to the president and say, I will do these four things, George, but I won't take on that extra one."

Why doesn't Dick Cheney do that?

GILLESPIE: First of all, I would suggest to you that that quote probably doesn't come from someone who is a Dick Cheney friend.

This is a man who loves his job, who does it very well, and as I said according to the medical reports, the fact is, the symptoms that we are seeing here are not in any way stress related; they are the aftermath of a procedure that took place in November.

PRESS: It's true that we never saw Dan Quayle taking on these responsibilities or even Al Gore, but the fact that Dick Cheney is taken on so many, honestly Ed, doesn't it just add to the imagine of George Bush not being quite up to job so Cheney has to do it all!

GILLESPIE: I think it adds to the imagine that President Bush is a very effective manager who has chosen top quality people. The reason -- one of the reasons he is doing so well right now and the public approves him so much, is because of the types of people he has put in these key positions and Dick Cheney is one of the best.

NOVAK: That will be the last word. Thank you very much Ed Gillespie and Congressman Wexler. Bill Press and I -- I will try to add a little stress to Bill Press's life in closing comments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Bill, it's pretty transparent what you and the Democrats are trying to do. You can't get a handle on George W. Bush because he's doing everything right; he's have popular proposals like the tax cuts, so you are using the unfortunate medical incidents with Dick Cheney to say that Bush isn't really president. I don't know whether that's despicable but it sure is tawdry.

PRESS: Bob, that's not it at all. But I do have to say this much about Dick Cheney's job. I mean, he does not have as much stress on his job as I have every night working with you.

NOVAK: I'm glad.

PRESS: It's easier being vice president. No Bob, I'm not -- you know, I'm not trying to get on top of George Bush; you can't find him to get on top of him. That is the problem. He was a part-time governor and I think he's become a part-time president.

NOVAK: If that's the best you can do, we are looking at an eight year president because that's the kind of -- you haven't been inside the Beltway for like four years, but you act like you have been here all your life.

PRESS: I know this guy is not pulling his load, Bob. You know hat? Congress is going have to change the 25 Amendment so it applies to what happens when the vice president is incapacitated.

NOVAK: You know how much you are hurting your cause -- people hate when you make fun of people when they have a medical problem.

PRESS: I'm not making fun of him. I am making fun of the man we elected to be president and has delegated the whole responsibilities to Dick Cheney. NOVAK: And I'm making fun of you.

PRESS: From the left, I'm Bill Press, good night for CROSSFIRE. See you see in THE SPIN ROOM at 10:30.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Bob Novak. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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