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Saturday Morning News

Problems With CIA Spies Point to Troubles Within Agency

Aired February 24, 2001 - 9:13 a.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The arrest of Robert Hanssen, a veteran FBI agent accused of spying, has put the spotlight on espionage and betrayal. Moles have been way of life in government here and abroad for a long time.

Joining me from Washington to talk about it is Melvin Goodman, a former Soviet analyst at the CIA, and he's currently a professor of international security at the National War College.

Hi, Melvin.

PROF. MELVIN GOODMAN, NATIONAL WAR COLLEGE: Good morning, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Thanks for being with us.

GOODMAN: It's a pleasure.

PHILLIPS: Let's get down to business. Let's talk about FBI arrogance for a moment, and did this play a part in this whole fiasco?

GOODMAN: I think arrogance is the right word, arrogance or hubris. I think this was the problem for the CIA in the Ames case in the 1980s because the CIA didn't want to believe, just couldn't accept the notion that someone had penetrated their security. And I think the FBI ran into the same problem in the 1990s. This is clearly arrogance or hubris. And this is the most difficult problem to control in any security agency.

PHILLIPS: You think there's an institutional arrogance?

GOODMAN: I think it's an institutional arrogance. It deals with people who are involved in security affairs. They have access to special sources and they have special classifications. They believe they have a higher ethical code and a sort of a higher morality, and therefore they don't think they're susceptible to the same pressures and blandishments and conspiracy that the rest of us are somewhat intimidated by at times.

And I think for that reason, they let down their guard. And now you have an Ames who spied for nearly a decade and a Hanssen who spied for 15 years. It's a security disaster.

PHILLIPS: How can you not leave clues for 15 years? GOODMAN: Well, Ames left numerous clues, and he should have been pros -- arrested and prosecuted long before he was, so that was extremely sloppy on the part of the CIA. Hanssen was much more careful, a much more disciplined, much more methodical character. But he was allowed to do things he should never have been allowed to do. He could access the computers to see if there was any counterintelligence involvement in which he had come up as a subject of scrutiny. Ames couldn't do that at the CIA, he had to rely on anecdotes and gossip in the corridor.

But Hanssen had an institutional way of protecting himself. So again, that was the arrogance of the institution and the professionalism of Hanssen.

PHILLIPS: Quickly before -- recap Ames for us. I don't know -- I don't know much...

GOODMAN: Aldrich Ames spied for the Soviet Union and for Russia from 1985 to 1994. The interesting thing is that Ames volunteered himself for the Soviet KGB in 1985, the same year that Hanssen did, only several months apart. Both of them shared a very intense knowledge of counterintelligence, therefore they could give the Soviets and the Russians everything that they needed to ward off CIA penetrations and FBI security.

PHILLIPS: What...

GOODMAN: But Hanssen had the advantage of knowing the technology of the security services, and particularly the computer systems. So he was even more valuable than Ames.

PHILLIPS: What would make an Ames or a Hanssen turn against their own institution?

GOODMAN: Well, I think the Ames case, to me, is simple. It was greed and the feeling that he wasn't given the rewards and the pay and the title that he deserved. He felt he was smarter than everyone else.

I don't think Hanssen was as concerned about the money. He certainly never spent it. Ames spent his money like a rock star and left clues everywhere that the CIA never seemed to find. Hanssen didn't want money. He called it off at some point and said, Give me diamonds instead for my children. He lived modestly. And I think there's some deeper psychological things going on with Hanssen that we'll find out as we get more into the literature of the affidavits, and if this case ever goes to trial.

But I don't expect it to go to trial.

PHILLIPS: Melvin, because we let you go, how vulnerable do you think the U.S. is to spying? And also quickly, if you could tell us, do you think the U.S. will have to reassess its policy with regard to Russia?

GOODMAN: Well, I think the important thing is that this is not a national security problem. We are not weaker because of this. This is really an intelligence problem, and it's just an -- in many ways, an in-house problem. It would be very unfortunate if we changed our relationship with Russia because of espionage. Espionage runs on one track, and policy should run on another track. There are too many important things we have to do with the Russians to allow espionage to get into the way.

But we are going to have to change some security procedures, but regardless, at the end of the day, we're strictly an open society, we are not a paranoid society like the Russians. And therefore, we'll always be vulnerable to this one person who thinks he's smarter than the institution he's working for, and will find a way to work for the other side. And that's a risk we're going to have to accept in this business.

PHILLIPS: Melvin Goodman, former Soviet analyst at the CIA, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

GOODMAN: Thank you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right.

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