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Larry King Live

Patricia Hearst Discusses Her Presidential Pardon

Aired January 31, 2001 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, her name sold millions of newspapers. Patricia Hearst, kidnap victim, ex-convict, now recipient of a presidential pardon.

But first, a notorious child murder is back in the headlines. Kennedy kin Michael Skakel will stand trial as an adult for the killing of Martha Moxley. Joining us in New York, her brother, John Moxley. We'll also here from Skakel's attorney Mickey Sherman, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Patricia Hearst will be with us momentarily. We start with John Moxley, the brother of the late Martha Moxley. He was 17, Martha was 15 when she was killed. Nobody has ever been convicted or charged with this until Michael -- until Michael Skakel has been. Right? And it was supposed to have been committed when he was how old?


KING: Now, the judge ruled today that he should stand trial as an adult.

MOXLEY: That's right.

KING: Obviously you must favor that.

MOXLEY: Absolutely.

KING: Because he can do longer time.

MOXLEY: Correct.

KING: Were you shocked?

MOXLEY: Was I shocked that...

KING: The judge's decision.

MOXLEY: No. We had hoped -- you know, I'm not an attorney, but we had hoped that the judge would come up with that type of -- that decision. There was a vehicle in place at the time where he could be transferred to superior court. He met the criteria then. He certainly meets the criteria now for transfer to superior court.

So you know, we were cautiously optimistic that this would happen, and you know, we're happy about it.

KING: How does your mother feel?

MOXLEY: She's good. You know, this is -- this is the first step. This is not an end in itself. It's the first step and it's what has to happen for us to get to a conviction.

KING: Now, how long have you been convinced that he's the killer?

MOXLEY: It's been the last few years.

KING: Not early on?

MOXLEY: No. You know, Michael was never a suspect in the beginning. People were looking at his brother, Tommy, then a tutor, you know, stray people coming in from off the streets. And it's just been things that have come out in the last several years: The Skakels had an investigation, things came out of that that pointed a finger at Michael. And then all of a sudden, people started coming out of the woodwork, saying that, you know, they were (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Michael, they got a call from Michael after 10 years that, you know, he put himself at the right place at the right time.

So it's just been in the last several years.

KING: Do you know Michael well?

MOXLEY: Don't know him from a hole in the wall.

KING: Don't know him, never met him?

MOXLEY: Met him before but didn't know him.

KING: She was killed under what kind of circumstances?

MOXLEY: It was, October 30th, mischief night, and she was out -- 15, you know, having a good time with a bunch friends.

KING: And was it a sexual crime?

MOXLEY: Umm, when she was found her pants were pulled down, so -- and it -- all indications are that it was a crime of passion. You know, she was beaten savagely. There was really overkill. And...

KING: So what do they make as the motive?

MOXLEY: Sexual frustration. Being turned off, being rejected. Being stoned, being drunk. Not being able to deal with it.

KING: This is a Kennedy relative, in a sense. Has that added to the pressure, that burden? Certainly the attention.

MOXLEY: It's added to the attention certainly, but I don't see how it's added to the burden of proof. And 25 years is a long time to keep something a secret, and eventually things like this I think always bubble to the surface, and that's what's happened.

KING: And are you confident justice will come about?

MOXLEY: I'm confident. You know, what we really want is our shot.

KING: You want a fair trial?

MOXLEY: We want a fair trial. We want to find out the things that happened. I want to know everything.

When they had the -- when we had the probable cause hearing in juvenile court, my mother and I learned things that we never knew.

KING: So this has been a series of things, it's not one major incident that has convinced you of his guilt?

MOXLEY: No, it's every -- little pieces by himself don't -- you know, aren't that much. But when you link them all together, it's like a jigsaw puzzle and it paints a picture.

KING: Thanks, John.

Joining us on the phone is Mickey Sherman. He is Michael Skakel's attorney.

Mickey, were you surprised at the ruling today that your client will be tried as an adult?

MICKEY SHERMAN, MICHAEL SKAKEL'S ATTORNEY: No. I wasn't, Larry. As you know, the trend in the criminal justice world today is to try many children as adults. So it's not surprising that they would rush to charge a 40-year-old as an adult.

KING: Doesn't Connecticut have a law, though, that says you're supposed to be tried at the age you commit?

SHERMAN: Yes, it does, but there's a little bit of a loophole, which the state implemented here, and that's why we're going to court at this point.

KING: What in your mind is the most compelling thing for your client's innocence?

SHERMAN: The fact that he didn't do it. You know, John and I actually agree on more things than people think. We do believe -- I think we both believe that there will be justice done here -- of course, we disagree on the result -- but also believe that it's going to be a good thing that there will be a full trial, that the facts will be known, that the stories will be told. And I think when that comes out, I think people will come to the belief that Michael Skakel is innocent.

He's more than not guilty, Larry: He's innocent.

KING: Does that mean in your mind, Mickey, we are ever going to find the true killer?

SHERMAN: Larry, I wish that was the natural consequence. Unless, like in a movie, somebody comes in and confesses, we're not going to find the real killer. I wish to hell it was the case that we would.

If Michael Skakel knew who killed Martha Moxley, he'd be the first one to tell the world. He doesn't. It wasn't him. If he knew, he would share that with the world.

KING: Is it the force of his personality -- I mean, you weren't there. Obviously, we don't know. What is it about him so compelling to you that he is innocent?

SHERMAN: Well, you know, it's my personal opinion, which doesn't mean a heck of a lot. Lawyers' opinions really don't mean anything. In fact, we're not even supposed to assert that we believe our client. That's how (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the rules are.

But by the same token, I'm pretty familiar with the facts in this case and with the nature of the state's evidence. I've seen a good taste of the state's evidence, and it's not there.

KING: When will the trial begin?

SHERMAN: As soon as possible. We're not going to unduly delay this thing, and I would hope between five to 10 months. You know, the scheduling is up to judge.

KING: Thank you very much, Mickey, and thank you, John.

John Moxley, the brother of the late Martha Moxley, and Mickey Sherman, Michael Skakel's attorney. And the trial should begin shortly.

Patricia Hearst has been pardoned. She's next. Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome our special guest for the evening to LARRY KING LIVE -- her exclusive and first interview since her pardon -- Patricia Hearst. She's among 140 people that Bill Clinton pardoned in the final hours of his presidency. She's the granddaughter of the legendary media mogul William Randolph Hearst. She hosts "The Secrets of San Simeon," which will air as a two-hour special on Travel Channel. We'll talk about that later.

Were you surprised you got the pardon?

PATRICIA HEARST: I was astounded. I was -- we had just gotten back from California. There was a television critics convention for -- you know, therefore the Travel Channel. And I was watching, you know, the beginning of the inauguration, and I thought, oh, I just don't want to watch this anymore. And...

KING: What happened? HEARST: Well, I just didn't want to watch, you know, I -- we're Democrats in my family and...

KING: So you were unhappy with the new president.

HEARST: I switched to Animal Planet and was watching "The Crocodile Hunter."

KING: And?

HEARST: And I got a phone call that said switch to CNN right away. And so I switched, and you know, everybody started...

KING: You mean you learned it from this network, not from a lawyer, not from...

HEARST: No, I heard it from my lawyer, who said to turn on CNN. That's where he heard it.

KING: Oh. Now, you knew you had applied for a pardon.

HEARST: Well, yeah.

KING: Now, Jimmy Carter, he reduced your sentence, right? He commuted you.

HEARST: He commuted my sentence from seven years to two years, and...

KING: But he didn't pardon you.

HEARST: No, he didn't. There's really a process that you're supposed to go through, and you're not supposed to be able to apply for a pardon until about five years after your sentence has been completed, and then you can apply, and then it goes to the pardon attorney, and you know, there are steps.

KING: If memory serves me correct, though, President Carter did urge presidents who followed him to pardon you.


KING: He thought you were wronged.

HEARST: Oh, please. I mean, President Carter was absolutely instrumental in this, and he's been my biggest champion, and he called me the day after the pardon. And...

KING: Oh, he did.

HEARST: He did. And you know, I was listening, because I thought and I said I hope this is you, because, you know, you have friends that might joke around, and he told me how he got the number and I knew it was him and I thanked him. And, I mean, he has been so steadfast and worked so hard on this. It wouldn't have been possible without him. KING: What does it mean to you? It means you can vote again; right? It means you have certain rights back.


KING: You can own a gun, I think -- what...


HEARST: That's the most inflammatory thing, I suppose, that...

KING: That wouldn't be a great idea to buy a gun. You're smart, Patricia. But what can you do now?

HEARST: You know, for me it was more because everybody knows about the kidnapping and the bank robbery and so for me it was more an issue of vindication as opposed to, you know, not having to put on a forum. You know, have you ever been convicted of a felony or -- that was never really the problem.

The problem for me was always how all of this happened and how the conviction, you know, got to the being a conviction in first place. And...

KING: So a pardon says we forgive; right? Is that what it means?

HEARST: Well, it says we forgive. There is also -- I fall into a kind of gray area because there are people who get convicted of crimes and the conviction really isn't a just one. And so you can't argue the pardon on the basis of innocence. On the other hand, you don't have to say you're guilty, which is what most people have to do. I know it's like a...

KING: Catch-22.


HEARST: ... Catch-22. Exactly. And so...

KING: So, in your case it is?

HEARST: I did not have to say I was guilty. I was able to say, look, the FBI and Oakland authorities had the plans to my kidnapping 24 days before it happened, and they didn't warn me. And I was kidnaped by terrorists, and I was brutalized by them, and none of this would have happened.

Even in the clemency application, when it was granted, it said that if it hadn't been for the circumstances of my kidnapping and the brutality that my kidnappers had shown toward me, none of the crimes for which I was convicted would have occurred.

KING: So, to you this pardon is -- this is it.

HEARST: It, for me, is total vindication, because all of that information goes through the pardon process. It gets examined, and, you know, if...

KING: What do you get? Have you got a document?

HEARST: I don't have a document yet.

KING: They will send you a document, won't they?

HEARST: They will send me a document. It will be signed by the pardon attorney, not by the president, because -- I thought that was kind of too bad, but...

KING: Why? He signed the pardon.


HEARST: Because he's gone. He's not in office anymore. So, it will be signed by the pardon attorney.

KING: These pardons have gotten more attention than anyone. Not yours. There have been complaints about yours and we'll deal with those. Were you surprised with the Rich pardon?

HEARST: Well, I really didn't know anything about him or what it was or -- I was surprised at how much of, you know, a fuss there is about it. You know, there is a remedy if you lied in order to get a pardon, then new charges can be filed.

But, you know as far as I know, the pardon can't be revoked. That's final. But that's why there's a process you go through. If you go straight to the president, normally -- you know, I know this from my pardon application that Armand Hammer had applied at the same time or reasonably near the same time.

And he had sent his straight to the White House and the pardon attorney said that it was kicked right back to his office, and he went through the process of being investigated and having it looked at.

KING: That didn't happen to Rich, though.

HEARST: That's what I have heard.

KING: But of course, the law says he can pardon anyone, anytime he wishes.

HEARST: Anytime. It doesn't -- you don't have to apply. He can do what he wants. That's right of the president.

KING: Before we go through the story, did you expect previous presidents to pardon you?

HEARST: Well, mine was a very bizarre case because I first applied when Ed Meese was the attorney general.

KING: Reagan.

HEARST: Yes, and Reagan was the president. Ed Meese was the attorney general, and he had contacted me through the head of Hearst's Washington news bureau and said President Reagan wants your application.

He called the then-pardon attorney over to the office. It said I want her application, you know, bring the papers here. He brought them over. And I checked this out with the pardon attorney because I couldn't believe it. I thought it was such an astounding story. And so, yes, at that point I filled out application and I quite naturally thought -- I figured later maybe they're all just sitting around laughing to see if I was stupid enough to apply. I couldn't for the life of me...

KING: You never heard back.

HEARST: No. For the life of me, I could not fathom why they had gone to that kind of an extreme.

KING: Did you expect President Clinton to do it sooner?

HEARST: You know, it was almost a miracle that it happened at all. I was -- I was just so happy it happened, and I just wasn't expecting it.

KING: Our guest is Patricia Hearst. We'll tell you the story. If thinking -- you don't like the name Patty; right?

HEARST: I have never liked it.

KING: If we occasionally slip and say it's because it was the name most associated with you.

HEARST: That's OK.

KING: But we know -- she is Patricia. She was Patty Hearst. We'll be right back.


KING: By the way Patty -- was the name her name her parents loved. You never liked the name, right?

HEARST: No, but...


KING: You liked Patricia, but you accepted the fact..

HEARST: I accept it.

KING: But the Patty Hearst story begins with a kidnapping. The kidnapping was February 4, 1974. You were how old?

HEARST: I was 19.

KING: You were kidnapped from your Berkeley apartment by the Symbionese Liberation Army. What were you doing? What happened? For those -- there's a lot of audience here that was new to this. What happened?

HEARST: I was just a student going to Berkeley, and, you know, they knock on the door, and next thing I know, there is a kidnapping. You know, and people are being beaten up, and, you know, gunshots, and...

KING: You're dragged away.

HEARST: ... dragged away.

KING: And you were kidnapped because, obviously, you were a Hearst.


KING: Right. Were you a radical on campus?

HEARST: I didn't know there were any back -- I mean, that was kind of beyond that point, although...

KING: That's right, '74...

HEARST: That was all over, but still, you know, large in people's minds.

KING: But you come from a family famed for being conservative?

HEARST: I think so.

KING: William Randolph Hearst, one could safely say, was conservative. So you were -- and what did you make of this? Now you're in prison. You're put in a closet; right? Tell what they did to you.

HEARST: Oh, you know, blindfolded, gagged, tied up. You know, just -- I don't like even talking about it anymore. It's been so long.

KING: You were raped.

HEARST: Raped, generally, you know, sensory deprivation...

KING: Stockholm Syndrome. Did they work on you?

HEARST: Yes, Stockholm Syndrome is what it is called when you begin to identify with your captors. I mean, once they don't kill you, start to think they're nice. They get nicer every day that they don't kill you.

And, well that's why you hear people that have been, you know, kidnapped or abducted or held hostage even for a short time and they'll say, you know, well, how were they? And they go, well, you know, actually they were OK. Well, they were only OK to these people because they weren't killed by them. And...

KING: Well, what did it do to a 19-year-old mind? HEARST: Well, it just completely -- it was gone. I mean I didn't get my mind back until -- frankly, I don't think I got it back until after I was released from jail, when I was out on bail pending appeal. And I could get back with my family, and get in a normal environment.

KING: Did you have any idea what an uproar it was causing in the country? The look for you, your father offering food help, offering to deal with the SLA -- were you aware of this?

HEARST: Well, I was certainly aware, you know, at how angry they would get every time there would be something on the television and they would yell and scream. And you know, it was bad for me every time something happened, every time demands weren't met exactly the way they wanted. And of course, they loved it, because they made all the press play all of their tapes in full, reproduce all of their documents in full, which I really don't think would happen today.

KING: Your father tried, didn't he?

HEARST: Oh, well...

KING: Boy, did he try.

HEARST: ... everybody tried. I think it was just set up to never be able to succeed. There were people who knew Donald DeFreeze, who was their leader in prison, who said that he'd actually had a plan to do something like this, kidnap, you know, the child of a wealthy, prominent family and convert them through these techniques to his cause. So this was kind of a long-range plan of his.

KING: You said earlier that the police knew of the kidnapping plan and never warned you. Why?

HEARST: They told my parents that -- because, of course, after I was kidnapped they had to...

KING: Say something.

HEARST: ... say something about it, because it became public, although not widely known. And they said, well, we thought we had them on the run, we thought we'd broken the back of the SLA, which must be the first of many times they said that.

KING: So they don't warn a potential...

HEARST: And they did not warn. They did not warn. And they have sworn, you know, because during this pardon process -- I've been interviewed by the FBI on several occasions -- and they've all said, oh, that would never happen today. And I'd like to think that that's true.

KING: You're not sure.

HEARST: But you know what, I'm not sure. KING: Our guest is Patricia Hearst. When we come back, we'll ask about the thing that probably got her convicted: why she went and held up a bank. What could lead to that? And then more of the story and lots to talk about. We'll include your phone calls. And she has been pardoned thanks to mainly Jimmy Carter. Don't go away.


HEARST: Mom, Dad, I'm OK.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, Patty, and we're all praying for you. I'm sorry I'm crying, but I'm happy your safe.



KING: One of the most famous pictures of the 20th century: Patty Hearst robbing a bank -- which is what you were convicted of.


KING: Right?

Why did you do -- there it is. We'll all -- just etched in our memory. You had black hair, huh?

HEARST: No, I had a wig. They had cut all my hair off.

KING: Why did you do that? You could have -- now, people said this at the time. Why didn't you just run out of the bank?

HEARST: Well, because -- well, on this photo you can actually see one of the people with the...

KING: On the upper right-hand side.

HEARST: ... the gun. In this picture, they've edited it and cut it out so that you can't see the guns that are pointing.

KING: They were pointing guns at you.

HEARST: Yes, you -- in the real photo, you can see it. This is an edited version that was done especially for me. And you don't see anybody -- oh, there you can see they...

KING: What's your memory of that? What was it like?

HEARST: I have practically no memory of it. I remember getting out of the car, and I remember...

KING: You spoke in the bank, didn't you? HEARST: I think I did. I said my name and -- because I was supposed to say my name and make a speech, but it's all pretty unclear. And then, Donald DeFreeze shot someone and then everything went blank. I have no idea. My next memory is sitting in the car leaving it, and I don't know how I got out or -- I just -- nothing. There's just been nothing.

KING: You were a prisoner of this group how long? From the day you were taken to the day you were taken in.

HEARST: Almost 18 months.

KING: Wow.

HEARST: Yes, it was a long time.

KING: Do you think it's still left a thing in your psyche?

HEARST: Oh, yes. I'm sure it did.

KING: It never will go way.

HEARST: And it'll never go away. And you know, certain things can bring it back like it just happened.

KING: And the pardon brings it back.

HEARST: In a way. I mean, in a funny way it didn't. In a funny way, there was just so much closure. It was -- it was just...

KING: Cleanses, too, then.

HEARST: Yes, it was...

KING: Then you hired one of the most lawyers in America, F. Lee Bailey, and you become the -- I guess that's his first public -- major public trial. He was famous for the Sheppard (ph) case, which was an appeal case. And you must have felt that you had a pretty good lawyer going. I mean...

HEARST: You know everybody told me this. I was in no condition to know who he was, what he did.

KING: Your father hired him, right?

HEARST: Yes. And...

KING: Were you surprised at how much...

HEARST: You know, it just wasn't -- I wasn't really part of this. I was there in body.

KING: Were you surprised you were charged?

HEARST: No, because the kidnappers...

KING: You expected it?

HEARST: ... always said I would be charged, although looking back on it I'm surprised none of my kidnappers got charged with it. That was -- that has always surprised me. I was the only one tried for this.

KING: For the bank robbery?

HEARST: For the bank robbery. Didn't you know that? Yes, I was the only one.

KING: Why?

HEARST: Because my name was Hearst. You know, this was the whole media thing, and I -- I will always believe that part of the aggressive -- the aggressiveness of the prosecution was because of the -- having the plans and not telling me. And you know, there were liability issues in that on the part of...

KING: Guilt?

HEARST: Yeah, the authorities for not warning me.

KING: Where did Bailey fail you?


KING: In retrospect. I know there was lawsuits over this, right?

HEARST: Yes, there were. And oh, you know, there were so many ways. I think he thought it was going to be so easy. I think he was distracted. He had legal problems at the time, as I recall, and was being sued in like every state or something. And you know, there was just so much.

KING: We get a break, we'll come right back with Patricia Hearst. This is LARRY KING LIVE. Tom Brokaw tomorrow night. Don't go away.


KING: Now, you had been kidnapped 90 days when this famous shoot-out occurred. Where were you?

HEARST: I'm trying to think now. In a motel with the Harrises

KING: Were you watching this?


KING: What did think?

HEARST: You know, they were saying the whole time that they thought that I was in there, and it was pretty much -- what the kidnappers had said the whole time just coming true in front of my eyes. It was like everything they said to me about what would happen, did.

KING: So, it affirmed them?

HEARST: Yes, it made them more powerful.

KING: People not happy with your pardon, Stuart Hanlon, the defense lawyer for the former SLA fugitive Kathy Soliah, now known as Sara Jane Olson.

HEARST: What a surprise. He's also my kidnapper's lawyer, too.

KING: Oh, is he?

HEARST: Yes, he was Emily Harris' lawyer.

KING: He called it outrageous and he expressed dismay that the pardon may come months before you're supposed to testify in Olson's attempted murder trial.

HEARST: Well...

KING: Are you going to testify at that trial?

HEARST: I have been subpoenaed. So, yes, of course. I mean when you're subpoenaed you go...

KING: She was one of the...

HEARST: Well, she joined up later, and, you know, I can see why he is upset, of course, because you know, the pardon pretty much means that everything I said was true as opposed to what the -- you know, what Sarah Olson was saying which is, you know, of course it doesn't mean that she's telling the truth about anything. No, in fact, that's exactly what it means.

KING: Sara Olson is a woman took a new identity and was gone for many years and finally has been found and is going to be tried.

HEARST: And she's going to be tried.

KING: You know her well.

HEARST: You know, I knew her when she was with the Harrises.

KING: When she was Kathy Soliah.

HEARST: When she was Kathy Soliah.

KING: So, you're only going to testify to what you know about what she did; right?

HEARST: Well, of course.

KING: But your testimony is further probably enhanced. I guess the lawyer would be worried because you have more credibility.

HEARST: Well, exactly.

KING: One would think. And also, David Bancroft, who helped prosecute you opposed the pardon, too.


KING: Did you expect that?

HEARST: Well, they've opposed it right from the beginning. You know, it's -- we have a funny legal system here where it's not really a justice system so much as it's a, you know, a winning and losing system. And you have defense teams and prosecution teams and winners and losers and...


HEARST: ... they even refer to it in one of their papers as a hard-won prize that they didn't want to see snatched from them. And I thought, well, that says it all right there. And...

KING: Well, sometimes the -- Rudy Giuliani recommended that Michael Milken be given a pardon. He prosecuted. He was not given a pardon. So that can happen. Now you told, in the June-July issue last year of "Talk" magazine, you said you have to live your entire life in the public eye and under public scrutiny because of the actions of people like Kathy Soliah and the actions of the Harrises and the rest of SLA, and therefore you do not feel sorry for her at all.

HEARST: No, I really don't. And I want to just go back to, you know, the complaining about the pardon and the prosecutors complaining because their biggest complaint was that I did not admit my guilt in order to obtain a pardon, and I did not have to admit my guilt.

In fact, I went into a meeting with the pardon attorney and my lawyer was there and President Carter's lawyer was there, and I told them all that if I had to say that I was guilty of a crime which I just flatly did not commit, that I didn't want a pardon, and I would withdraw my application. And so there was no surprises, you know, from the Justice end. You know, I was very up-front.

KING: So, You don't have to admit it?

HEARST: No, I was very up-front about it. I've always been straightforward and honest about it. And I wouldn't have wanted a pardon if that...

KING: What was prison like?

HEARST: It was better than being with my kidnappers, I'll tell you that. I mean...

KING: Were you treated well?

HEARST: Yes, you know, it's prison. I wouldn't recommend it for anybody, but compared to being kidnapped by terrorists and held by them, it's much, much nicer. And...

KING: You wound up marrying your bodyguard.

HEARST: I did.

KING: With the famous name of Bernie Shaw.

HEARST: That is right.

KING: He must get a lot of kidding about that.

HEARST: He gets letters, too, that should be over here. But, yes, we've been married 21 years. I think this will be 22. Two children.

KING: You're an actress. You do movies. You've got another movie you're doing. You did movies for our famous friend in Baltimore.

HEARST: Yes, John Waters.

KING: And you've got this special coming, which we'll talk about in a while for Travel Channel.

HEARST: Yes, March 19th.

KING: I'll get -- we're going to show a clip from it, too.


KING: What was the fact that you -- as you mentioned earlier. What's it like to know that you will always be, oh, Patty Hearst is in this movie or Patty Hearst is hosting this special, the Patty Hearst.

HEARST: Well, I get two different, oh, that's who that is because there's a whole younger generation that's only seen John Waters's films or they've seen "The Adventures of Pete and Pete" or something else that I've done. And so, they do not know anything about the kidnapping, and then there is, you know, the older crowd.

KING: Over 40; right?

HEARST: Yes, and you know, they do know about the kidnapping, and, you know, so they have that association with it.

KING: Well, you could have decided not to lead a public life. In other words, you could have decided I won't be an actress. I'm going to go out in Long Island somewhere and raise kids and go to the market.

HEARST: Well, I guess so, but...

KING: You wanted --- you do -- there's part of it likes public eye.

HEARST: Well, I think I would have liked to have been actress if I'd thought it was even the remotest possibility. I think everybody goes through a period where they think, you know, well, you're still on camera all the time. You know, you go through that when you think wouldn't that be great.

But, I have gone to college, and I was an art history major and I thought I'd be working in a museum or something. And then after the kidnapping and everything else bad, I kind of fell into it. I met John at a cocktail party, and...

KING: John Waters

HEARST: Yes, and I thought, well, why not. You know, I'll take the opportunity and try it, and see if I'm any good at it. And the rest is history.

KING: One would assume that as a Hearst, you are inordinately wealthy.

HEARST: That is what people -- that's why I got kidnapped. Basically.

KING: Is it true? I mean, there's a lot of money in that Hearst family.

HEARST: Yes, it's a, you know, big, multinational corporation. It's one of the biggest private...

KING: And you're a descendant; right?


KING: So, you don't have to work.

HEARST: Well, I suppose nobody really has to work, but it certainly is one of the most satisfying parts of my life. I certainly tell my children that, you know, it's the only time I'm truly happy and fulfilled. You know, I don't want them growing up not wanting to work and do something for themselves and accomplish something and be productive. I don't even understand people who simply don't want to work.

KING: Some inherited people who just watch their fathers...

HEARST: Just, with nothing to do. I don't -- I don't get it, quite frankly.

KING: Our guest is Patricia Hearst. We'll talk about her special. We'll include your phone calls. This is LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.



HEARST: The castle and cottages have more than 150 rooms. This is the assembly room. It's 85 feet long and so large that my father and his brothers sometimes moved furniture aside and played touch football here. No doubt it was the world's only football stadium decorated with magnificent 16th century Flemish tapestries.


KING: That's the house, San Simeon, built by her grandfather, the late William Randolph Hearst, actually for his girlfriend, right?

HEARST: Actually, it was started for his wife. Millicent had the first input into it with the architectural plans, the cottages, and the main house. And then, it later transferred to Marion.

KING: Marion Davies, actress that he fell in love with.


KING: This will air on the Travel Channel, called "Secrets of San Simeon" with Patricia Hearst, a two-hour special on March 19th. Then they're going to break it up into some one-hour specials and show lots of it. Whose idea was this?

HEARST: It was my idea. It was something that I had been thinking about for a long time. I had seen tours of the castle. I didn't think they were as good as they could have been. And you know, here with the Travel Channel we had the opportunity to do, you know, two hours, a lot of history. There's a lot of archival footage. There's...

KING: There's stuff there from all over in the world. I mean, you can't see that place in -- two or three days you need to really see it.

HEARST: You really do, and also we did just a lot of history on William Randolph Hearst, the man and his parents and just where he came from and about his career as well. And so it's very thorough.

KING: How long did you spend -- there's the famous William Randolph. How long did you spend there?

HEARST: Well, two weeks filming: you know, a week of interiors, and then a week of doing the actual tour.

KING: What is that place worth?

HEARST: Oh, I couldn't even guess.

KING: Couldn't even guess.

HEARST: I can tell you how many bathrooms there are, though.

KING: When did you first see "Citizen Kane," Orson Welles' historic film, fictional film about your grandfather and that castle.

HEARST: I was 25. I had never seen it, because...

KING: You were out of prison and everything? HEARST: Oh, yes, I was out of prison.

KING: You didn't see it when you were 19 or 18 or...

HEARST: No, I didn't. And my parents had always said it had nothing to do with my grandfather, and I just, you know, kind of believed them, and then, as I got older, I thought I really have to see this. And when I saw it, I naturally realized that it had everything to do with him.

KING: Did you like it?

HEARST: Well, of course. I mean, it's unbelievable. It is the greatest film ever made. I introduced it at the film festival over at Bryant (ph) Park one year.

KING: Oh, you did?

HEARST: I mean, it really is so fantastic.

KING: You're a gutsy lady.

Did you see the HBO special about its making? Billy Zane played Orson Welles.


KING: Yes.

HEARST: Yes, I did.

KING: Did you like that?

HEARST: Loved it.

KING: Well-done.

HEARST: Loved Melanie. She was great.

KING: Warner Robbins, Georgia as we go to calls for Patricia Hearst. Hello.

Oh, I should hit it down. No, it's not coming down, guys. The phone did go down. Let's try this one. That went down.

Kamas, Utah, hello.

CALLER: Hello.


CALLER: Yes. I would like to know if Patricia Hearst had to have extensive therapy.

KING: Good question. HEARST: Oh, yes, I did. I -- I had a lot of therapy, and then I got back with my family, which was actually the best therapy. I -- that changed everything.

KING: With your mom and dad.

HEARST: Being back with my family. It was much more nurturing, obviously, than seeing a therapist. But it was...

KING: What was it like coming home?

HEARST: It was like coming back from another planet. It was so strange.

I looked unrecognizable to them, and everything around me was unrecognizable to me. I was -- it's like learning how to walk again or something.

KING: Did friends come back to you, friends from school?

HEARST: Some did.

KING: Some didn't.

HEARST: Some didn't. You know, it was -- it was one of those life-altering experiences where you really do learn who your friends are. And you know, some of my friends had been down putting food baskets together for the food giveaways that the kidnappers had demanded, and you know, there were -- there were some real hang-in- there people who have, you know, to this day have stayed true.

KING: Our guest is Patricia Hearst. Don't forget "Secrets of San Simeon" will air -- that's a two-hour special on the Travel Channel -- on March 19th. We'll be back with more calls.

Tomorrow night, Tom Brokaw will be with us. Martha Stewart on Friday. And next Tuesday night, a tribute to Ronald Reagan on the occasion of his 90th birthday, and among the very special guests will be his wife, Nancy. Don't go away.


HEARST: The Neptune pool. It's always been a favorite spot for visitors to San Simeon, including me.

After the castle was turned over to the state of California, the family was still allowed to use the pool in the late afternoon. Most of the time we followed this rule to the letter, but every now and then we kids would jump in before the last tour had ended.

When that happened, we would have to hid there behind the mermaids. The tour groups would look over the balcony and see the water movement, but they couldn't see where we were hiding.



KING: We're back with Patricia Hearst. Any of your captors you remember with fondness?



KING: No, I mean, maybe somebody...


KING: ... showed acts of kindness. Someone may have whispered to you, I'm sorry we're doing this.

HEARST: You know, I think if you asked me 20 years ago, there might have been something like that. But I'm really so over thinking that anything they did was an act of kindness.

KING: Cincinnati, Ohio for Patricia Hearst, hello.

CALLER: Hello.


CALLER: I have a question. What was it like in deprogramming, of the getting back to reality again from what you had been through?

KING: Yes, the brain-washing for want of a better term. How did they deprogram you?

HEARST: You know, a lot of it happens because once you're separated from your captors, it takes a few weeks to realize that they don't have power over you anymore. And so once that happens, once you get to that point -- which can be two, three weeks -- then it's just a matter of talking about what happened and trying to face what it was that happened to you, which is just it's not very easy and I certainly didn't want to do it. And -- and it was very unpleasant. And it was better to try not to remember what had happened to me.

KING: Your husband, who met you as your bodyguard, he had to deal with things to go through.

HEARST: Well. He was -- he's a retired police inspector. So -- and what happened was my family had used police officers as bodyguards, and they were off-duty, and this was a second job for him.

KING: There's your wedding

HEARST: There's my wedding. And...

KING: Your father just passed away. There he is. Your mother passed away how long ago?

HEARST: Two years ago.

KING: And your father died just...

HEARST: About a week before Christmas. So they, you know, they didn't get to find out about the pardon, and you know, that was kind of bittersweet about it, but they would have been happy.

KING: Were they both ill?

HEARST: Well, you know...

KING: They were just...

HEARST: Yes, I mean, they were not the healthiest, but it was a surprise with both of them. It was calls in the middle of the night. It wasn't, you know, something that happened very slowly. Both of them suffered strokes.

KING: When you look back on your grandfather, read about him -- "Citizen Hearst" won a Pulitzer, a great book -- what are your thoughts? I mean, you're of his blood. The man started a war.

HEARST: Well, it would have been a really popular kind of war today. Presidents would have liked that kind of war. You kind of go in fast and you win really quickly. And they've been doing that more lately.

And you know, it's funny, it depends on which book you read. Especially -- you know, there's a huge difference between something like "Imperial Hearst"...


HEARST: Well, that's it. You know, 1937 differs from, you know, one in 1964. And the new one out, "The Chief," is really amazing because enough distance has passed now. It's, you know, 50 years since his death, and now historians are taking a measured look back at, you know, and a more balanced look at his life.

KING: He was a genius in many areas.

HEARST: He was incredible. He was really amazing, and he, you know, he ran for political office. He...

KING: He invented tabloid journalism.

HEARST: Invented, yes, what is now just common practice in the industry. And, you know, but for a time, even 20 years ago, people were, you know, acting like that was a big -- you know, oh, no, not that. But, yes, it's really remarkable. That's why this was a good time to do the documentary at San Simeon, too. Enough time has passed.

KING: Boy, he would have made a great guest. We'll be back with remaining moments with Patricia Hearst. Don't go away.



UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Let's all put on a faux cap and learn something about a foreign culture.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Do we have a surprise for you, don't we, Meg?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: We sure do. All this silly trouble you have been having, lately. Wanda honey, you're going to Sweden this afternoon at 3:00.

HEARST: You mean you swapped me for a milkmaid?


KING: "Cry-Baby," funny.

Orville, California, with Patricia Hearst. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, I have two questions for Mrs. Hearst. First, do you plan on telling your kids about your past? And second, have you ever considered writing a book?

HEARST: I did write a book, and it is...

KING: How many years ago?

HEARST: I wrote it in 1981. And yes, my children know all about my past. And they have my book, which they've read. They've got...

KING: They're how old now?

HEARST: They are 16 and 19. And they've got the Patty Hearst film that Paul Schroeder did, and, you know, I've been very open about it.

KING: How did they react to the pardon?

HEARST: Well, you know, they're really happy. They don't quite understand it because they've kind of lived with it so long and the whole situation, and -- but -- I think all of it's kind of overwhelming.

KING: Was your husband surprised?

HEARST: Yes, we were totally surprise. I mean, we had were literally sitting at home. We had flown in because we were trying to get in-between two storms. So, we took the red-eye back from California, got home, ran to the grocery store, and it was starting to snow, and the next thing we knew, we heard that I was pardoned. So we were just not expecting this.


KING: There must be something you think of this. Your lawyer calls you. You turn away from CNN because you don't like George Bush. HEARST: I don't like George Bush.

KING: And suddenly he says, turn on CNN. You turn on this network and you see someone saying...

HEARST: I couldn't believe it. Then the little scroll at the bottom, and it's like you have to pinch yourself. You can't believe it. And then the phone started ringing and it basically rang nonstop all day.

KING: Mostly congratulations? All congratulations?

HEARST: Well, all congratulations.

KING: Was the most rewarding the call from Carter?

HEARST: That was the best. That was just the best. And his lawyer called from the car. They were coming back from the parade.


KING: Carter had a lawyer represent you with the pardon attorney; right?

HEARST: Yes, and so he called me from his car. They'd heard it on the car radio, and President Carter said he heard it, I think, on the radio as well, and, you know, it was amazing. It's just -- I can't even explain to you what that's like to, you know, see something like that.

KING: To put it into words is impossible.

HEARST: Yes, it is impossible because it had been, you know, I guess 13 years, this process that I've gone through for this, and, so -- you know, it was just unbelievable.

KING: And having a former president work for it all that time, and finally to have it happen. You would have thought, boy, Carter's working for me. I have got clout.

HEARST: Well, you know, I never really thought that. I mean, I realized what an uphill battle it was although, I mean, I guess I thought it would be easier if I really -- I don't know what he must have thought.

KING: He must have thought it would be easier, too.

HEARST: And, you know, it was just amazing. He was absolutely, you know, my champion, and, you know, and he was there for the long haul. It was really amazing. Thank you.

KING: Congratulations. And again we'll see "The Secrets of San Simeon" with Patricia Hearst, a two-hour special on the Travel Channel on March 19.

"CNN TONIGHT" is next. And don't forget to log on to my Web site and send us an e-mail. It's There you see it. Very popular Web site. We have lots of information, lots of tidbits. I think even this Friday we give you the latest books I have read. Hey, I don't know -- I don't understand how it works, but I know that people like it.

See you tomorrow night with Tom Brokaw. And don't forget, on Friday night, Martha Stewart. And on Sunday night, a retrospective of our interviews with Richard Nixon.

For Patricia Hearst, yours truly, Larry King in New York. Good night.



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