Crossfire

Is John Ashcroft Too Conservative to Be Attorney General?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: ... get the job yet, but it's not going to be easy. Ashcroft began day one of his confirmation hearings by promising to enforce the law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: I understand that being attorney general means enforcing the laws as they are written, not enforcing my own personal preference. It means advancing the national interest, not advocating my personal interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: But the former Missouri Senator then faced tough questions from judiciary democrats on school desegregation, civil rights and voter registration. And the grilling has just begun. Ashcroft faces two more days in the Senate crossfire. If confirmed, will he enforce all the laws of the land? Is he too far out of the mainstream on gun control and abortion?

Is his Pentecostal faith an issue? Or should it be? The hearing's in recess, but the debate continues right here tonight with two of only 100 Americans who will get to vote on the Ashcroft nomination. And helping me question our two senators tonight is a -- the conservative columnist, Linda Chavez, a woman who has her own scars to show from her own nomination experience of very recent.

Linda, welcome to CROSSFIRE.

LINDA CHAVEZ, CO-HOST: Thank you very much, Bill. And thank you, Senator Boxer.

Senator Leahy today raised a question that's on a lot of people's mind, and that has to do with religion and whether or not John Ashcroft's religion is being unfairly used against him. I'd like you to listen while we hear what Senator Ashcroft had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHCROFT: No senator has said, "I will test you." But a number of Senators have said: Will your religion keep you from being able to perform your duties in office?

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: I'm amazed at that. ASHCROFT: Pardon?

LEAHY: I said I'm amazed at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHAVEZ: Senator Boxer, should John Ashcroft's religious convictions be used to disqualify him for this position?

SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: Of course not. No one I know has ever said that. This country is based on freedom of religion. His, mine, yours, everybody's. So, that's not what troubles me at all about this appointment. What troubled me about this appointment is Senator Ashcroft's record as a senator, as a governor, as a attorney general in Missouri. These are the things that trouble me, because he's so far to the right, Linda. And if you look at his record, he acted on that ideology. It's not like he just had an ideology, Bill. He had an ideology and he acted on it.

CHAVEZ: But, Senator, one of the things that has been used against him by a lot of the interest groups is his Pentecostal religion. And it has been suggested that maybe this religious conviction is going to inform the way he acts as attorney general. And I want to ask you if you think that's fair? And did you raise similar questions about Joe Lieberman when he injected religion into the campaign?

BOXER: Well, maybe you didn't hear my answer. I think that John Ashcroft's religion has nothing to do with this. I respect his religion, I'm sure he respects my religion, and all that. This is a country where freedom of religion is its basis. Now, if you question that, it'd be different. So, no that's not the question.

The question is, here you have a man who has said -- and I would be quoting --- there are two things you find in the middle of the road: a dead skunk and a moderate. And I don't want to be either one. This is not a good thing after we've come out of this brutal election where the country was so divided. We need people who can just bring us all together, and I don't think he's one of them, Linda.

PRESS: Senator Specter, I want to question something you said today at the hearing. I heard you say in your opening statement that you see more intensity around this nomination than you've seen like in the last decade. But, as Senator Boxer pointed out, I haven't heard any senator question say that there should be like a religious test that Senator Ashcroft would have to pass. I haven't heard any senator call him a racist. I've heard senators raise a question about whether this is a man who will uniformly and fairly enforce all the laws of the land, even those he disagrees with.

Isn't that a legitimate question? Isn't it fair to raise these questions at this hearing?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I think it is fair to raise those questions. I think John Ashcroft has some good replies. He had some sharp questioning about his education policies on segregation and priority. He pointed out that education was increased by 70 percent while he was in office. He was questioned on voting rights and he had good answers for those. But in the last decade, really since Justice Thomas and Judge Bork, we have not had the kind of mobilization of spirit which we have here today.

PRESS: He was also questioned about his opposition to some of President Clinton's nominees, particularly mentioned Bill Lann Lee for deputy attorney general for civil rights. And he said that he thought he was a nice, good man. But he opposed him because he thought he was too much of an advocate for his own point of view. Now, Senator Schumer suggested that maybe that this same test ought to be applied to Senator Ashcroft.

Let's listen to Senator Schumer's response, I know you want to answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Senator Ashcroft, the issue boils down to this: When you have been such a zealous and impassioned advocate for so long, how do you just turn it off? This may be an impossible task.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Somebody who says that abortion ought to be illegal except to save the life of a mother -- no exception, not even for rape or incest -- how does he just turn it off?

SPECTER: Well, on the abortion issue, Senator Ashcroft promised today not to try to overturn Roe v. Wade. We had a vote last year on an issue relating to abortion clinics where there was a big controversy as to whether someone who had blocked an abortion clinic could be discharged in bankruptcy.

And John Ashcroft voted not to discharge, taking a tough stand against people who were anti-abortion. But coming back to the question which you started with, Bill, where there was a controversy over Bill Lann Lee. They got into a dispute about the Adarand case. And Senator Ashcroft made an analysis of it which stood up.

Nobody came back and said there was a lack of justification. Listen, I voted for Bill Lann Lee. I thought he should have been confirmed, but Ashcroft had a reason not to.

CHAVEZ: Senator Boxer, let me ask you a question.

BOXER: Yes.

CHAVEZ: I think most people believe that you ought to listen to a nominee's views before you decide how you're going to vote. And most of your colleagues on the Democratic side in the Senate have said that they have not made up their minds, that they are going to listen. And yet you have come out and said already, before the hearings, that you're going to vote against him. Is this fair? Is this the new bipartisanship that we keep hearing about? BOXER: Well actually, many, many people have taken a stand regarding John Ashcroft -- many -- most in favor. I came out against. So if you're going to apply that standard, Linda, to me, you ought to apply it to Jeff Sessions, who's been debating me and others who've been on these shows -- Jon Kyl continually. So the fact is many of us have taken a position because we feel we know his record. Clearly, people like Jeff Sessions support him. Now I have to just say...

CHAVEZ: Are you going to take it -- are you going to take it all the way to a filibuster? Are you going to filibuster this nominee?

BOXER: I really -- I really would rather not go there because I think, a: George Bush has a real golden opportunity here to watch these hearings and reconsider this nomination. Arlen is right. I haven't seen this kind of an outcry.

You know, I was in my home state. We had the worst rainstorm we've had in two years. People flew in to San Francisco from Los Angeles all over my state to meet with me because they are so concerned. They feel this nomination is kind of a stake in their heart. And these are people from mainstream groups who have fought for civil rights, for women's rights, Republican Women for Choice. These are mainstream people. And you know, I was very proud when I made my decision to come out and it wasn't easy. It's very hard, you know a lot of people...

CHAVEZ: Senator, let me just tell you...

BOXER: If I could just finish.

CHAVEZ: ... as somebody who has, in fact, withdrawn the nomination...

BOXER: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: And I think that the Bush people have gotten some heat for that. I don't think you're going to see that happening.

SPECTER: May I pursue the question of a filibuster? I'm not proposing one, Barbara.

BOXER: Yes.

SPECTER: But it seems to me, if he's all that bad, you have a way to stop him. If he's all that bad, why not really put your...

BOXER: Shoulder to the wheel!

SPECTER: Put your...

(LAUGHTER)

SPECTER: Put your mouth, filibuster...

PRESS: Pedal to the metal, whatever it is.

SPECTER: ... where your heart is?

BOXER: I'll decide that -- I'll decide that when I decide it. The point I'm making is, I think right now we have a chance perhaps to get 51 votes against a nominee who is raising all the divisiveness of this election. You know there are people right now if Florida, Linda, who think that the wrong person is being sworn in. They believe that that state went for Al Gore. They feel they were kept from the polls. This nomination is right at their heart because this is a man, John Ashcroft -- and I don't agree with Arlen. I don't think he answered these questions very well.

SPECTER: We'll see tomorrow.

BOXER: There'll be more. But we're dealing with an issue of voter registration where he fought efforts to register minority voters in St. Louis, a voluntary school desegregation plan -- voluntary -- he fought those efforts.

SPECTER: Barbara is really putting her finger on it now. This is really a challenge of the election. There are a lot of people who have not yet agreed that President-elect Bush is the president-elect. And this is another way of challenging a legitimacy...

BOXER: Arlen, I don't agree with that.

SPECTER: Well, the people -- the people in the House who tried change the count or challenge the count say that bipartisanship is in the Senate but it doesn't belong anywhere.

BOXER: Nobody in the Senate did that, Arlen. Nobody in the Senate did that.

SPECTER: I know but...

(CROSSTALK)

BOXER: This is a question of listening to President-elect Bush's remarks on the night he declared victory. Do you know what he said? He said, I want to heal this nation. I want to govern from the center. I want to be the president of all the people. Then he picks Ashcroft who is raising all these wounds. I think you ought to step back and listen to these people who are calling your offices.

PRESS: Senator, let me ask you about one of the issues.

SPECTER: I am listening. I'm getting a lot of calls to my office, pretty evenly divided.

BOXER: Yes, just like the election isn't it?

PRESS: I want to ask you about the school desegregation issue because here is a situation, May in 1980, long time after Brown v. Board of Education. The schools of St. Louis are still not integrated. They still have segregated schools and the federal court said the city and the state were both responsible because the city was doing it or not doing or not doing it, under state laws. And John Ashcroft opposed that. And he said today, you heard him several times, he said it because he didn't want the state to spend any money. Isn't that the lamest defense you ever for supporting segregated schools?

SPECTER: Well, there was a very lusty exchange. Senator Kennedy pushed him very, very hard and Ashcroft held his round.

PRESS: Oh, did he?

SPECTER: And what -- well, I thought he did and went into some detail on the cost factor. And then Senator Kennedy side-stepped just a little and said, what about the priorities for these African- American children?

PRESS: Exactly. He said, you're talking about money, but where was your concern about those black students? And where was it?

SPECTER: Well, Ashcroft came back pretty strongly, pointing out that the funding for education had increased 70 percent during his tenure.

BOXER: That was on -- that wasn't the question. The question was why would you stop these voter registration plans, the voluntary desegregation plan.

And what struck me, and Arlen, I'm sure will disagree, I have a sort of a test about nominees. And Linda was very good at looking in the camera, and saying, look, this -- I'm speaking to you from my heart.

When someone starts reading every single answer, not their opening statement. We all do that. But he couldn't look at Ted Kennedy and say, I'll tell you why I vetoed that bill. It was wrong. He had to read his message. It didn't make that much sense. And the truth is there isn't a good answer.

SPECTER: We attended two different hearings. We attended --

BOXER: Well, I saw -- watched --

SPECTER: We attended two different hearings. And when I talk about the 70 percent increase, that was the question that Senator Kennedy asked. He said, "What was your priority for African-American children?"

And Ashcroft responded and Kennedy subsided. It's -- infrequently that Kennedy subsides.

BOXER: He has not subsided, I assure you.

PRESS: You two never do. We're going to take a break. More issues came up in the hearings today. More issues to debate here on CROSSFIRE regarding the Ashcroft nomination. We'll get to that.

And as we go to the break, one senator today said there's one job, one Cabinet position that under no circumstances should Senator Ashcroft be considered for. Listen up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RUSSELL FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: I and Senator Paul Wellstone were walking outside the Capitol, and John Ashcroft offered us a short ride to our homes. Let me tell you on the record, it should give at least some comfort that he was not nominated for secretary of transportation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHAVEZ: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Linda Chavez. Not since Clarence Thomas' nomination to the Supreme Court a decade ago has any prospective nominee faced the level of opposition aimed at John D. Ashcroft. Joining Bill Press and me tonight to discuss today's hearing on the Ashcroft nomination are Senator Barbara Boxer and Senator Arlen Specter -- Bill.

PRESS: Senator Specter, Senator Ashcroft was also asked today, in addition to Bill Lann Lee, about his opposition to David Satcher as attorney general. I was surprised, he made a very serious charge. He said he voted against him because General Satcher was guilty -- he said, I've got it written down here...

SPECTER: Because he hadn't...

PRESS: ... of sending AIDS infected babies home without telling their mothers. There's the surgeon general there on the screen.

Now, I checked today after the hearing. That program was not begun by David Satcher. It was actually done under Ronald Reagan in 1988 to test the spread of AIDS in this country, and it was ended by Doctor Satcher in 1995, two years before he was nominated as surgeon general.

Again, wasn't that a bogus, and unfair charge on Ashcroft's part?

SPECTER: Well, Bill, nobody challenged him at the hearing. John Ashcroft...

PRESS: I am now.

SPECTER: Well, where is John Ashcroft? Let's see if he can respond to it. The issue was raised about Doctor Satcher's nomination, and Senator Ashcroft gave very specific reasons, saying that on this testing, if they found the child was infected with AIDS, they did not tell the parents.

And he had very specific reasons that what -- at least according to his representation -- and I don't know if he was right, wrong, or indifferent. But I do know Doctor Satcher's nomination was brought up by a questioner, and Ashcroft answered, and that was the end of it.

PRESS: But here's what I find troubling, is -- and by the way, at the time, Bill Frist, the only...

SPECTER: Listen, if you're right Bill, they can come back tomorrow...

PRESS: Well...

(CROSSTALK)

SPECTER: ... and...

CHAVEZ: Correct the record.

PRESS: Well, they might...

(CROSSTALK)

SPECTER: ... and push him on it...

PRESS: ... but at the time...

SPECTER: ... and that would be fair, if you're correct.

PRESS: At the time, Bill Frist, the only physician in the Senate, and a Republican, said that what Doctor Satcher did was ethically correct, that the charges were bogus, and it was pure politics, had nothing to do with the real issue.

And so, you get with David Satcher, and with Ronnie White, and with Bill Lann Lee -- you always get these far-reaching reasons that Ashcroft comes up with for opposing some minority nominee. Doesn't that -- isn't that troubling?

BOXER: And could I throw in Margaret Morrow, because this one I can tell you about. This is a woman, you may know. She was the first woman, Linda, to be the head of the Los Angeles Bar Association, and then the first woman to be the head of the California Bar Association. I recommended her to President Clinton. He put her up -- as a matter of fact, Arlen helped me with this -- and a lot of my Republican colleagues did, but not John Ashcroft. He put a secret hold on her -- secret hold, for more than a year...

SPECTER: Oh, now, Barbara, all holds are secret.

BOXER: ... he treats those people -- no, no, because we asked -- we had passed a rule and said, come out and let people know. He didn't. Finally, when he did come forward, we had a vote, and we won. But it was two years she was twisting in the wind. This is not a man who treats people kindly. This is not a man...

CHAVEZ: Senator Boxer, let me follow up on that, because it seems to me...

(CROSSTALK)

BOXER: ... who treats people kindly. Yes. CHAVEZ: ... that there's sort of an underlying theme, here, that John Ashcroft is anti-minority, maybe he's a racist, that's unspoken, but it seems to me...

BOXER: That's your words. I never heard anybody say that.

CHAVEZ: It seems to me that there is that implication. Now, John Ashcroft opposes racial quotas. He opposes racial preferences, but he also opposes racial profiling. And yet, Bill Clinton, your president, has done nothing in his years in office to stop the practice of racial profiling. Aren't you having a little bit of a double standard here, Senator?

BOXER: Well, first I think you're absolutely wrong on the facts because I believe John Ashcroft was against doing anything about racial profiling. In the United States Senate, he voted not to even begin the collection of data. So, he is not, at least in his Senate record...

CHAVEZ: He said in his hearing, today, he was opposed to it.

BOXER: Well, let me -- I think we need to -- he may be opposed to it, but let's just look at the vote. I would just say to you this, I never used the word racist when it comes to John Ashcroft, because Ronnie White -- whether he was white, black, a woman, or a man -- he was sabotaged on the Senate floor.

I did research today. It's been 50 years since someone who was voted favorably out of the committee who was up for a district court judgeship was voted down on the Senate floor -- humiliated on the Senate floor. It didn't have to happen that way.

And John Ashcroft -- you know, he got all the Republicans to vote with him. He never asked Ronnie White one question on the death penalty case, which I probably didn't agree with Ronnie White on that one either. But he made people feel that Ronnie White was against the death penalty when he supported it 70 percent of the time.

SPECTER: Hey, wait a minute. We were -- we were on racial profiling, which we slid right over to Justice White.

BOXER: Well, there was a wider question...

PRESS: Take them both, take them both. Take your time.

SPECTER: Now, wait a minute.

BOXER: There was a wider question.

SPECTER: Now, wait a minute. There's an awful lot of slipping and sliding, it seems to me, here. John Ashcroft was the only guy to hold a hearing on the issue of racial profiling on the Judiciary Committee. When it came up, he took the initiative because he didn't like it. Now...

BOXER: And how did he vote? SPECTER: ... that's the fact.

BOXER: How did he vote on the Senate -- in the Senate?

SPECTER: Well, I don't know which vote you're talking about.

BOXER: I'm talking about a vote that would have started the collection of data by the Justice Department.

SPECTER: Well, I...

BOXER: How did senator...

SPECTER: Now wait a minute. I doubt very much that there was such a vote, Barbara...

BOXER: All right, we'll find it, we'll find it.

SPECTER: ... because nobody mentioned it. If there had been a vote on racial profiling, you would have heard it from Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy...

BOXER: Well...

SPECTER: You would have heard it plenty, today.

CHAVEZ: And Barbara, what did President Bill Clinton do about racial profiling in his eight years in office?

BOXER: President Bill Clinton is beloved by the African-American community, by the Hispanic community because...

CHAVEZ: He hasn't done anything on racial profiling.

BOXER: ... of what he has done. Well, you know, you can't do everything. And now we're going to have to leave some things to President-elect Bush. And unfortunately, I don't think John Ashcroft's the one to heal our race relations in this country.

PRESS: Before we run out of time, I do want to ask you, senator, are you on the record yet as being a firm vote for Senator Ashcroft?

SPECTER: I've said that I expect to support him unless something comes out of these hearings which is extraordinary. I think there is a constitutional duty to look very closely and to ask some pointed questions, and I'll be doing that precisely tomorrow.

PRESS: I want to ask if then on this -- back to the religion question for just a second, because I don't think his religion should be a issue. But when Senator Ashcroft goes to Bob Jones University and said, what makes America different from any other country is that we have no king but Jesus. I want to ask you, is Jesus your king and how do you feel about this -- Ashcroft saying what makes America great is we're a Christian nation.

SPECTER: No, Jesus -- Jesus is not my king. And I think that religion is overdone by politicians, but it is done very, very frequently. And Ashcroft has put in the record his denial that he did not know that Bob Jones was anti-Catholic and on the issue of racial dating.

PRESS: Senator.

SPECTER: Well, you make a lot of speeches, Bill. And...

PRESS: You don't get many honorary degrees, but you know, and when he was governor...

SPECTER: There are -- there are lots of honorary degrees. I'm not -- that also hasn't come up. And so far everything that could be said as to Ashcroft pretty much has been.

PRESS: Two more days of hearings, senator. You haven't seen the beginning of it yet.

BOXER: I think there's a lot more. There's a lot more when you're talking about all the issues.

SPECTER: Well, it's not only a hearing; it's a listening.

BOXER: It sure is.

PRESS: OK, we're hoping to get you back and talk about more of the issues.

Thank you so much for coming tonight, Senator Boxer, Senator Specter. We look forward to seeing you tomorrow and the next day.

SPECTER: Nice to be with you, Bill.

BOXER: Thank you.

PRESS: And Linda Chavez and I will have a couple of choice closing comments to make about the Ashcroft nomination coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Now, Linda, I know that today was supposed to be your confirmation hearing at Labor. So I want to ask you a question. I mean, do you think that the Bush team now and George Bush feels they really have to stick by Ashcroft to make up for walking away from you so fast?

CHAVEZ: Well, they'll stick with him to the bitter end. And I will tell you, though, it's a heck of lot more fun being here asking the questions than being where John Ashcroft was today having to answer them.

PRESS: You know, I do think John Ashcroft, I mean, he's been on the show, I think he's a good man. But I do think that if Al Gore had named someone as far to the left as George Bush has with John Ashcroft, John Ashcroft would have been leading the opposition were he still in the United States Senate. He's too far out of the mainstream.

CHAVEZ: Well, he did actually nominate someone, Lani Guinier, far to the left and she did not survive. But I think John Ashcroft will survive. I think he did an excellent job today.

I think, by the way, he came across as a reasonable man. He did not come across as somebody with horns and a tail. He wasn't an extremist of any sort. And I think the fact that these hearings are broadcast allows the American people to see that. And so I think he's going to do just fine.

PRESS: But they also, when they look at his record, I mean, this man is an advocate. He's a proud advocate. He's an effective advocate. The challenge is he's got to prove that he can go from being an advocate to an enforcer, and I don't know that he can make the case.

CHAVEZ: Bill -- Bill, I know it's hard for you Democrats, but President-elect Bush won the election, and surprise, surprise, he's going to appoint people who agree with him philosophically.

PRESS: I didn't expect him to appoint me. Don't get me wrong.

From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CHAVEZ: And I'm Linda Chavez from the right. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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