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Rights and Wrongs; Uncommon Ground; Out of Print

Aired January 7, 2001 - 9:00 p.m. ET


ANNOUNCER: Tonight, "Rights and Wrongs": A 10-year-old boy is murdered, his killers locked away. But Jeffrey Curley's parents say their fight for justice isn't over yet.


ROBERT CURLEY, FATHER OF JEFFREY CURLEY: These people have to be exposed. They've been hiding long enough.


ANNOUNCER: A grieving family, an organization of pedophiles, and a battle over just how free our speech should be.


HARVEY SILVERGLATE, BOSTON ACLU BOARD MEMBER: There is room in this country for people who believe that man-boy love is OK. There is room for people who believe it, who say it, but not who do it.



LAWRENCE FRISOLI, CURLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: When it comes to the commission of a crime, which is the rape of children in America, free speech doesn't protect you.


ANNOUNCER: "Uncommon Ground": They are neighbors, and they are at odds.


YA'IR ULMAN, ISRAELI SOLDIER: During the daytime, stones are thrown. At nighttime, shooting. And it hasn't calmed down.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't go to the club or to see my friends, to sit and laugh. And we will die out there for their land. It's my land, too.


ANNOUNCER: From the front lines in the troubled Middle East, firsthand accounts from Israelis and Palestinians. Why sons fight and why their parents worry.


NAPAN RASHI: He is a fighter, our boy. He's (INAUDIBLE) because we reject occupation. And he wants to see himself free as others.



NAOMI ULMAN: It's sort of like a war, isn't it? I take it as a war. And he's in the middle of it.


ANNOUNCER: "Out of Print": From the printing press to the Internet, the future of publishing. Will books survive?


MARK BERNSTEIN, EASTGATE PUBLISHING: The future of reading, as much as we can know about any future, is going to be on screens or things that come after screens, not on scrolls, and not on chopped up trees.



ANNE RICE, AUTHOR: People are predicting that the printed book is going to go out. But people have been predicting that for -- I'm trying to figure -- 40 years?


ANNOUNCER: CNN & TIME with Jeff Greenfield and Bernard Shaw.

BERNARD SHAW, CO-HOST: Good evening.

Freedom of speech, expression, constitutional guarantees that have long protected the views and ideas of even the most controversial groups. But many are now asking, where do you draw the line? Where does free speech and end responsibility begin?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CO-HOST: Robert and Barbara Curley are fighting to answer that question. The Massachusetts couple is suing the North American Man-Boy Love Association, an organization that openly defends what it calls inter-generational sex. Critics call them pedophiles.

The Curleys say that NAMBLA shares responsibility for their son's murder. Their lawsuit seeks millions of dollars in damages, the hope being that a massive verdict would effectively drive NAMBLA out of business.

The Curleys and their supporters say that this tactic is a legitimate way of holding groups morally and financially accountable. Opponents call it an end run around the constitution.

Here's Kathy Slobogin.


KATHY SLOBOGIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jeffrey Curley was just 10 years old when he was killed, not by strangers, but by men he thought were his friends, two men who wanted sex from him for the promise of a new bike.

Jeffrey was Robert Curley's son.

R. CURLEY: He wasn't going to play along with that. And that was the end. He said no. It was no. And that was it.

SLOBOGIN: Jeffrey's old bike had been stolen. His mother Barbara told him he had to wait for Christmas for a new one.

BARBARA CURLEY, MOTHER OF JEFFREY CURLEY: I just wanted him to learn some responsibility. And I have to live with that today. I think if I had just bought him the other bike, maybe it wouldn't have happened. Maybe they would have moved on to somebody else.

SLOBOGIN: Like thousands of children, Jeffrey was a latchkey kid. His parents were separated. Both worked days. But they say Jeffrey never roamed beyond his tight-knit neighborhood in East Cambridge, Massachusetts.

(on camera): I'm sure you told him all the normal things, "Don't talk to strangers," that kind of thing.

B. CURLEY: Oh, absolutely. No, he knew never to talk to a stranger or get in a car.

R. CURLEY: But unfortunately, that's not the way it works.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): Salvator Sikari (ph) was a neighbor, a 21-year-old handyman who lived a block away. Jeffrey knew him.

B. CURLEY: He was just a little boy. He just said, "My parents always said stay away from strangers." And he didn't consider him a stranger.

SLOBOGIN: Sikari and his friend Charles Jaynes cultivated a relationship with Jeffrey. Jaynes was a pedophile. He belonged to the North American Man-Boy Love Association, or NAMBLA, a group which advocates sex with children.

DAVID YENETTI, PROSECUTOR: This was a seduction by these two grown men of this 10-year-old boy. Mr. Charles Jaynes has an 11-page record.

SLOBOGIN: David Yenetti (ph) prosecuted the murder case.

YENETTI: When they took him for rides, they let him steer on the highway. And they took him out to adult places to eat, an Italian restaurant downtown. So they made him feel like he was a big shot. And I'm sure that was appealing to him.

SLOBOGIN: Jeffrey never told his parents.

(on camera): So you didn't know about this relationship.

B. CURLEY: No, not at all. No, no, they kept it completely hidden.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): On October 1, 1997, Jeffrey stayed him sick from school. His mother stayed with him.

By afternoon, he felt better and took his dog down the street to his grandmother's house to give it a bath.

B. CURLEY: I got a phone call from my mother 15 minutes later. And she said to me, "Jeffrey did wash the dog and everything, Barbara. But he just came running in and said, "Nanna, Nanna, I've got to go. I've got to go. I'll be right back, Nanna. I'll be right back. And I promise I'll be right back." And we never seen Jeffrey again after that.

SLOBOGIN: At the corner by the neighborhood playground, Jeffrey got into a gray Cadillac with Jaynes and Sikari.

YENETTI: He thought they were his friends. And they were targeting him for sex. That was the reason for the whole seduction. That was the reason for the lure of the bicycle. And I think the evidence points to the fact that when Jeffrey Curley found out what these men were after, he said no, and he struggled. And that's why they killed him.

SLOBOGIN: Jeffrey Curley died in the backseat of Jaynes' Cadillac as Sikari drove through a Boston suburb. Sikari told police that when the child refused to have sex, the nearly 300-pound Jaynes sat on Jeffrey and held a gasoline-soaked rag to his face. Jeffrey fought for 15 to 20 minutes before he died.

After dark, with the body in the trunk, the two men drove to Manchester, New Hampshire, where Jaynes kept an apartment.

YENETTI: Sikari in his statement to the police said that Jaynes sexually abused Jeffrey Curley after he was dead.

SLOBOGIN (on camera): What did they do with the body?

YENETTI: Jaynes and Sikari, when they were done with Jeffrey Curley, put him in a Rubbermaid container completely naked. They wrapped the container with duct tape. And they drove it to a bridge in South Berwick, Maine, where they dumped the container into the water of that river.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you heard anything about him?

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): The next morning as friends and neighbors handed out fliers for the missing child, Sikari showed up at the Curley home offering to help. The Curley family found something suspicious about Sikari's behavior, enough so that police took Sikari and Jaynes in for questioning.

Later that night, Sikari broke down, confessed, and said Jaynes had killed Jeffrey.

B. CURLEY: It was like my heart was ripped out of my chest. I just went into a total shock. I couldn't believe it. I thought maybe they'd just rape him or leave him in an abandoned building or anything. I was just like, I can't -- why did they have to kill him? Why did they have to kill him?

SLOBOGIN: In the backseat of the car where Jeffrey died, police found publications from NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. They included drawings of nude boys.

In a kitchen closet at the apartment, a NAMBLA membership renewal card in the name of Anthony Scaccia, the alias used by Charles Jaynes.

On a shelf beside his bed, half a dozen more NAMBLA bulletins. One issue shows two young boys having sex, beneath the drawing the words "join NAMBLA."

NAMBLA, founded 22 years ago in Boston, is a loose organization of about 900 pedophiles. On its web site, NAMBLA says it is against sexual abuse and coercion. It calls itself a political organization and advocates the repeal of age of consent laws.

B. CURLEY: It really sickens me. We're talking about little children that don't even know what sex is. They don't know what sex is. That is statutory rape.

SLOBOGIN: The Curley family believes their son was as much a victim of NAMBLA as he was of the murderers.

In a diary where he detailed his seductions of young boys, Charles Jaynes wrote that buying his first NAMBLA bulletin changed his life. "This was a turning point in discovery of myself. NAMBLA's bulletin helped me become aware of my own sexuality and acceptance of it."

FRISOLI: As a result of reading the NAMBLA bulletin, he came to cope with his feelings and his desires and then became to realize that it's OK to go out and have sex and rape little kids. And that's what he did.

SLOBOGIN: Lawrence Frisoli, the Curley family attorney, has filed a $200 million wrongful death lawsuit against NAMBLA and seven of its leaders in a test of the legal limits of free speech. (on camera): You know what NAMBLA says. They say that they're just a political advocacy group. They don't endorse force or coercion and that they had nothing to do with what these two men did.

R. CURLEY: What do you want them to say? They can argue whatever they want, whatever point they want. They can put whatever kind of spin they want on it. But they're out there actively advocating for crimes against children.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): Attorney Frisoli points to stories in the NAMBLA bulletin like "A Gift From Santa" where an older man has sex with two boys. It's not just a story, he says, but a blueprint for perversion.

FRISOLI: NAMBLA doesn't say, "Force yourself on the child." NAMBLA will say, "Do the A-B-C-D to convince the child to consent to this activity." And then you read it and say, "Ah-ha. This is where I go and this will happen to me. This is what I have to do and this is how I will succeed."

SILVERGLATE: The stories would obviously be titillating to a pedophile. A pedophile might feel encouraged by them. But it is not the same thing as saying to somebody, "Go out and attack that boy."

SLOBOGIN: Harvey Silverglate is a board member of the American Civil Liberties Union in Boston, which is defending NAMBLA in the Curley lawsuit.

(on camera): The ACLU argues that no matter how offensive NAMBLA's views may be, they're protected by the 1st Amendment. It says the constitution draws a clear line between free speech and action and that there's no evidence NAMBLA had anything to do with Jeffrey Curley's death.

SILVERGLATE: There is room for people to believe that man-boy love is OK. There is room for people who believe it, who say it, but not to do it. We shouldn't confuse stuff that we read that gets us scared, that gets us enraged, that makes us disgusted. We shouldn't confuse that with illegal speech.

FRISOLI: When it comes to the commission of a crime, which is the rape of children in America, free speech doesn't protect you.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): NAMBLA itself was not charged in the criminal case. No one from NAMBLA responded to our requests for an interview.

This man was once part of NAMBLA's inner circle, elected to the steering committee the first time he went to a national meeting.

TOM POLHEMUS, DETECTIVE: We kicked that off for a moment of silence for two of our members that were at the prior conference who couldn't be at this conference because they're both locked up. And I locked them up.

SLOBOGIN: Tom Polhemus, married with a family, is a police detective in Fairfax County, Virginia. For two years in the mid-'90s, he worked undercover inside NAMBLA.

POLHEMUS: And you sit in a meeting, and they will warn you, "Don't say something to the guy sitting next to you that you wouldn't say to a uniformed policeman because you don't know who it is." And that's a constant theme at the meeting.

SLOBOGIN (on camera): What about one-on-one outside of the meetings?

POLHEMUS: It's a whole other ballgame.

SLOBOGIN: What do they talk about then?

POLHEMUS: Travel that they do around the country and around the world in order to have sex with children, boys in particular, of course.

SLOBOGIN: They're actually trading how-to information about seducing and having sex with children.

POLHEMUS: Yes. If you meet somebody after the meeting, "This is where I go to meet boys. And this is how it's done."

ROY RADOW, PEDOPHILE: I'm quite proud to be a boy lover, to be a pedophile.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): Roy Radow (ph) is a defendant in the lawsuit. He didn't respond to our interview request. But he did speak to CNN for a program on pedophiles in 1995.

RADOW: We unequivocally condemn any relationship, sexual or otherwise, with people of any age that involves coercion or exploitation.

POLHEMUS: Their definition of coercion might be different than yours or mine. I mean, to me coercion would be to me a 47-year-old and a 10-year-old, and, "Come on, I can give you everything you want." It's friendly coercion. But it's coercion nonetheless.

SLOBOGIN: Roy Radow insists most pedophile relationships with children are platonic.

RADOW: If you look at the overwhelming population of pedophiles, there's not a lot of sexual activity going on. We're talking about friendship. We're talking about emotional support, mutual emotional support.

SLOBOGIN: A year later, police arrested Radow in his apartment. He was accused of masturbating in front of a 12-year-old boy, the son of a friend. His trial ended with the jury deadlocked.

(on camera): Most parents fear strangers. Is there actually a greater threat from adults that their children know?

POLHEMUS: Oh, absolutely. That's how the vast majority of these cases come about. It's a trusted friend or family member. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Sikari is ordered by the court to be punished at the state's prison for life.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): Salvator Sikari and Charles Jaynes have been locked up since the day after Jeffrey Curley was killed. Both were convicted of murder. Neither man would testify at trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey Curley was dead at 4:30.

SLOBOGIN: Their silence was broken only once by Jaynes as the case was going to the jury.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dead in the car. He got that tarp to cover Jeffrey Curley's body...

JAYNES: I never hurt him. I never hurt (INAUDIBLE)! I never hurt him!

SLOBOGIN: Jaynes declined to talk to us about the murder or the lawsuit. The ACLU is asking for a court to dismiss the case.

(on camera): Does it make you uncomfortable to know that NAMBLA material was in the backseat where that little boy was killed?

SILVERGLATE: Of course. Of course it makes me uncomfortable. I'm a human being after all. But I do think that the overriding principle, the 1st Amendment, must be preserved even in hard cases. Is this a hard case? You bet. But is this a close case legally? No.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): But for the Curley family, this is a necessary fight.

B. CURLEY: Every day I just expect him to come running in and say, "Mommy, mommy, make me something to eat. I'm hungry."

If all of this just, we come out with saving some children and educating some people, that would be enough for me. But I really would like to totally demolish this organization in memory of my son Jeff.


GREENFIELD: NAMBLA's membership has always been kept secret. The Curleys' attorney says one of the goals of their case is to make that list of names public.

ANNOUNCER: If you'd like to chat with the detective who infiltrated NAMBLA, our online discussion with Tom Polhemus begins at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. You can join the conversation from our Web address,

Coming up...


FORMER SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R-MO), ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: Quite simply, we will strive to be a guardian of liberty and equal justice.


ANNOUNCER: Why the fight over this man may be the first serious test of the Bush presidency.


BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Democrats are trying to find out if there are some cracks in this usual unstoppable effort to get a former senator confirmed.


ANNOUNCER: As CNN & TIME continues.


ANNOUNCER: Coming up, rocks and rifles. Life in the West Bank from those living it everyday.


IBRAHIM ADALI: Everyone will die. But I prefer to die as a martyr than preferring in my bed or in my home.



ULMAN: It's a horrible feeling because you know you're shooting people.


ANNOUNCER: But next...


ASHCROFT: Ronnie White was not confirmed by the United States Senate because he was soft on crime.


ANNOUNCER: What makes this man so controversial?


MICHAEL WEISSKOPF, "TIME" CORRESPONDENT: Along with the Ronnie White issue and comments he made in support of confederate leaders to a southern magazine would be the kind of evidence put forward by Democratic opponents, who are trying to prove that he is racially insensitive.


ANNOUNCER: When CNN & TIME continues.


SHAW: For George W. Bush and his cabinet nominees, the confirmation process began on a cordial note last week. The president-elect's choice for commerce secretary, Don Evans, received a warm welcome on Capitol Hill. But that might have just been the calm before the storm. Other Bush nominees are unlikely to receive such a gentle bipartisan reception, nominees such as former Senator John Ashcroft.

That story in tonight's "Dispatches."


PRESIDENT-ELECT GEORGE W. BUSH: Today it's my honor to send to the United States Senate the name of Senator John Ashcroft to become the attorney general of the United States.

ELAINE SHANNON, "TIME" CORRESPONDENT: The very conservative groups went to the Bush camp, I'm told, and said, "We want one of ours in the attorney general's job."

ASHCROFT: And I will enforce the laws of the United States of America with integrity.

PHYLLIS SCHLAFFLEY, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: Our creator gave us our unalienable rights, the first of which is the right to life.

SHANNON: Phyllis Schlaffley is a well-known conservative activist. When I called Phyllis Schlaffley's outfit, maybe 30 seconds passed before she got on the phone with me, even though she was running for the airport and said, "I can only talk a minute." That's how strongly she felt about Ashcroft.

We are given to believe that she had expressed her views on having a staunch conservative like Ashcroft to the Bush camp before Christmas.

FRANKEN: Some of his views are so strong and some of them so religious, for instance, that many senators privately felt that he was a little bit sanctimonious. They were oftentimes put off by some of his views.

ASHCROFT: What doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God.

FRANKEN: The toughest fights are going to come over charges, quite frankly, from civil rights groups that Ashcroft has espoused racist beliefs.

WEISSKOPF: Ron White is an African American who sits now on the Missouri State Supreme Court. He was nominated for a federal judgeship in 1999 by President Clinton.

Behind the scenes, Ashcroft orchestrated opposition to Ronnie White among the law enforcers. One relatively large police group, which decided to oppose his confirmation, did so only after receiving a letter of appeal from John Ashcroft.

ASHCROFT: Law enforcement officials who on their own made a decision -- I can't make decisions for sheriffs.

WEISSKOPF: Another thing lurking in John Ashcroft's background that may come up during his confirmation hearings is a 1988 report by a blue ribbon commission on race relations in America. Ashcroft was one of 40 civic, political, and business leaders who sat on that commission and issued a report concluding that there was -- that the nation had moved backward in terms of providing equal opportunity to blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians.

Ashcroft dissented and did not sign the report. He said that the report relied too heavily on federal government solutions.

FRANKEN: Republicans are going to say that Ashcroft is merely somebody who is reflecting a number of mainstream views, that he is not, for instance, racist at all, that he has a very strong civil rights record.

WEISSKOPF: Every opposition research group in town on the Democratic side is hunting for a copy of John Ashcroft's commencement speech in May of 1999 at the Bob Jones University. And Ashcroft's aides say that he didn't have such a transcript, that he made those remarks extemporaneously.

John Ashcroft was very proud of his appearance at Bob Jones. It even made his annual Christmas list that year as a highlight of 1999.

BUSH: God bless you all. And God bless America.

WEISSKOPF: Once it became controversy during the Republican primary, after George Bush appeared there, John Ashcroft just backed off a little bit, saying that he was not aware at the time of his appearance of the racially biased campus rules at Bob Jones.

The Democrats on the Judiciary Committee have asked for a copy of that speech. The hope of Democrats is this will be a smoking gun.


ANNOUNCER: For more on this story, read "Time" magazine this week.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was on the television as well.


ANNOUNCER: ... beyond the headlines, beyond the diplomacy, the real people involved in a real conflict. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IBRAHIM ADALI: I am fighting for freedom, to get back my rights, to live like the other youth, boys in the world.



ULMAN: You're really sandwiched in between two worlds, the Jewish settlers and the Palestinian settlers.


ANNOUNCER: When CNN & TIME continues.


SHAW: Often it has seemed more process than peace. After nearly a decade of U.S.-brokered meetings and negotiations, Israel and the Palestinians are again deadlocked, as violence simmers in Gaza and the West Bank. And time is running out for President Clinton to pull off a peace agreement in the Middle East, a feat many believe is impossible given the limited time Mr. Clinton has left in office. So where does that leave the peace process?

Tonight, we want to go beyond the headlines, the rhetoric and the diplomacy. CNN & TIME traveled to the West Bank to speak with those on the front lines of this conflict -- Israelis and Palestinians, sons and their parents, neighbors sharing "Uncommon Ground."

Here's Charles Glass.


YA'IR ULMAN: It's a horrible feeling because you know you're shooting at people. And it's a worry but you have to do it because you have to defend yourself. There's bullets coming at you.

IBRAHIM ADALI: We will fight because it lets you feel very angry because until when shall we be killed and be arrested and afraid.

CHARLES GLASS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two young men with much in common -- both are 20 years old, both students, and both of them are at war over land.

Ya'ir Ulman (ph) serves in the Israeli army.

Ibrahim Adali (ph) is a Palestinians who throws stones at Israeli soldiers.

ADALI: I feel myself as a soldier because I am fighting ti a legal right, which is to live in peace. My heart orders me to go to fight.

GLASS: Ibrahim Adali, who studies English at Bethlehem University has seen friends die since this uprising, or intifada, began last September.

ADALI: Every Friday, it's a usual scene for us to be gathered in the Nativity Yard to walk in a funeral in one martyr.

We make a demonstration, go to the checkpoints throwing stones.

But throwing stones is the only way to express our feelings and to tell the Israeli government that we are here, it's our land. You cannot do whatever you like, no.

When I go to a demonstration, usually, I know that I am going to face a tank, M16, 500mm. I'm going to face a lot of very high quality of weapons. When I go there, I know that I might die. OK, I don't care if they shoot me or not. Everyone will die, OK. But I prefer to die as a martyr than preferring in my bed or in my home.

If God let me alive until I finish my education, I want to be a teacher. If I am a teacher, I can learn my students what the Israeli occupation means and also what is the Palestine, what is the word Palestine means.

SEVIRK RASHI: The principal says that we should stand one minute and pray for the people who had been killed.

GLASS: Sevirk Rashi (ph) is only 16. Like Ibrahim Adali, he says he resists occupation by throwing stones. His family home is in the West Bank's largest city, Ramallah.

SEVIRK RASHI: I'm fighting for freedom, to get back my rights, to live like the other youth or boy in the world.

We can't move in our land freely. And all the children in the world when they grow up, they see good things and something nice. But we saw guns and soldiers.

The land needs us to fight. Nobody said to me, go and fight, go kill yourself, go throw stones, it's myself.

GLASS: Sevirk's father, Napan Rashi (ph) teaches at Birzet (ph) University. His hardest task is to keep his children away from violence. One morning he found hid youngest son with a new toy.

NAPAN RASHI: It is a toy for kids. I used to use it. It is now used against soldiers, but it was originally designed for catching birds. I don't think this 7 years old, good soldier in the intifada, I don't think so.

We are not sending our children to be killed. No father, no mother would like to see his boy or girl be killed. Simply, they go to the streets. And sometimes, we succeed in preventing them and sometimes we won't because they (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But sometimes I feel helpless, because I knew. The same experience happened to me when I was at his age when my father tried to prevent me to do the same.

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Of course he don't let me go to the conflict to fight, but I go. I just go.

NAPAN RASHI: He's a fighter by his spirit because he rejected the occupation. But I'm worried. I would like to see him a man, a free man, with a profession, to take care of a family and support a family. I'm not sure. I'm not sure he can, because our experience in this region, death is faster than anything else.

ULMAN: It's a horrible feeling because you know you're shooting at people. Even though you never know who's behind that guy. Itt may be a Palestinians child or mother. And it's always a thing that goes through your mind when you're shooting. And it's a worry but you have to do it because you have to defend yourself. There's bullets coming at you.

GLASS: Ya'ir Ulman studies at a rabbinical college and, therefore, doesn't have to be in the army. Last March, he volunteered.

ULMAN: You leave behind your own personal thoughts because in the army if everybody came with their own politics and their own ideas you'd have havoc.

GLASS: Since September, Ya'ir Ulman has guarded settlers in the West Bank city of Hebron.

ULMAN: You're really sandwiched between two worlds, the Jewish settlers and the Palestinian settlers.

There's around about 400, 450 Jews and around about 150,000 Palestinians. My way of coping with it is actually to be friends with everyone. My own personal aim is to try and if a Jewish boy comes past I'll talk to him and escort him. And also if a Palestinian boy comes past, I'll also talk to him and discuss with him things.

Rubber bullet, it's just there were demonstrations that got out of hand. And so we just try and shoo them away in all possible ways without using any violence. And if they still come and they start endangering us, by the stones getting too near, we go back for our bullets, usually for their legs or something, not to hurt them too much.

NAOMI ULMAN: I think it's the first time he confronted this conflict in this country.

GLASS: Ya'ir's mother, Naomi Ulman (ph).

NAOMI ULMAN: Now he's there, as far as I understand, to guard the Jewish people who are sitting there. They are there from an agreement which was signed between the Israeli government and I think the Palestinian authority, and so we have to protect them. It's sort of like a war, isn't it? I take it as a war, and he's in the middle of it. Very worrying, yes, I am worried, I am a worried mother.

GLASS: Naomi Ulman was born in Israel but moved to Great Britain, where she married and raised her three children. When Ya'ir, her youngest, turned 15, just three years away from army age, she decided to go home.

NAOMI ULMAN: When you want to go back home, you don't think of all the implications of what's going to happen when you bring teen- agers back to Israel.

When they live in this country, they are Israelis. He chose to stay here, so he served in the army. I think that growing up in this country, very quickly, the young man, there is this maturity that you don't see in a country where there are no worries of existence. So they mature much quicker.

ULMAN: Now suddenly you come back home and just throw it all off you. You know, you don't have to worry. You can walk out of the house, you know, with just shirt, t-shirt, and trousers and not with bullet-proof vests and helmet, which we wear whenever we leave the base 24 hours a day.

On the other hand, you know that in two days you're going back. So you're not running away from it, you're just having a break from it. And so you really think, so how am I going to deal with it next time?

You know, in Israel it's the Sunday blues. In England, it's Monday blues because Sunday's holiday. And here it's just when you whenever you come back to the army blues. Yes, it sucks. And so, you know, you stand at your post and you literally think, what's going to be in 10 seconds?

It's become a day-to-day thing.

During the daytime stones and the nighttime shooting. And it hasn't calmed down. And it can go from one extreme to the other.

About an hour ago, they started shooting from both directions. So usually when they start shooting, it means that it won't be a quiet night.

IBRAHIM ADALI: There will be never peace in this area especially because it's a faith matter. It will continue until the end, until god's promise come and defeating the Israeli government from our land.

ULMAN: How do you stay human? Probably by not thinking too much. Just don't think. And if you really let the thoughts and nerve get into you, then you're not going to be able to function properly. Just don't think, just do.


SHAW: Ya'ir Ulman, the young Israeli soldier in our report, is now stationed outside of Hebron, where he is making his way through infantry training.

As for Ibrahim Adali, he says he hopes that Palestinians leader Yasser Arafat will not make any concession to Israel and the United States. He plans to continue protesting until there's a Palestinian state. ANNOUNCER: Coming up, will we close the book on books?


RICE: I'm really old fashioned, I want to hold a book on my hands and I want to sit back in my easy chair with it.


ANNOUNCER: As CNN & TIME continues.


ANNOUNCER: Next, curling up with a good computer screen?

RICE: I guess I want pages that I can not only turn and spill coffee on, but actually mark on with a pen.


ANNOUNCER: Some views on viewing books online, when CNN & TIME continues.


GREENFIELD: This is a great time for bargain hunting at your local book store. Big discounts have, in fact, become something of a post-holiday literary tradition, as publishers deal with a flood tide of rejected offerings. And this year? No exception. A recent downturn in sales all but ensures major discounts on an array of leftovers. Why? It might be a discount of economics and evolutions, something we first touched on last summer, when we posed the question, "Will we be closing the book on books?"


DAVID DICE (ph), BOOK PRINTER: Lutitia (ph) is my favorite place.

GREENFIELD (voice-over): Ten years ago, David Dice of Bradford, Vermont gave up practicing law and started making books by the letter- press print method.

DICE: It's a good job here. This is basically what Gutenberg did. I mean, he had wooden type obviously. This is the way books have been done for 500 years, more or less.

GREENFIELD: For Dice, it is an act of love.

DICE: I think people will always want to have a physical contact with a structure, with a book, to touch the paper or to experience the pleasure of actually turning pages.

GREENFIELD: Really? Right now, countless millions of people read newspapers and magazines not on paper, but on their computer screens, and there are clear signs that books are now migrating as well. Last March, famed author Stephen King released his latest book, "Riding the Bullet," only on the Web. And last month, prominent book publishers announced plans for a major move into e-publishing.

And what of the threat to the joys of settling down with a satisfying feel of cloth, and paper, and ink?

BERNSTEIN: This is nostalgia for an imaginary past.

GREENFIELD: So says Mark Bernstein, who heads up Eastgate Publishing, a Watertown, Massachusetts-based e-book publisher. His books don't exist on paper at all, but on CDs and zip drives, and as bits and bytes speeding over the Internet. He publishes six to eight e-books a year and scoffs at the notion that something precious is at risk.

BERNSTEIN: First, we never curled up by the menorial fireplace with our big dog and our glass of Claret and our fine leatherbound books. That wasn't something most of us ever had the opportunity to do, and certainly not our ancestors. So the book as a finely crafted artifact is partly imaginary in any sense.

GREENFIELD: Of course we will read books, Bernstein says, just not the way we do now.

BERNSTEIN: The future of reading, as much we can know what any future is, is going to be on screens, or things that come after screens, not on scrolls and not on chopped up trees.

GREENFIELD: But how does that future sit with a Yale-educated man of letters, say a man like William F. Buckley Jr.?

WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR., AUTHOR: The physical existence of a book has a -- really it's a certain kind of poetry that can't be duplicated in a chip.

GREENFIELD: He's written more than 40 of them, his two latest, a collection of speeches and a novel, "Spy Time," now grace the shelves of bookstores. But this founding father of modern conservatism was also one of the first prominent writers to become computer literate. And if the future is in e-books, that holds no terrors for him.

(on camera): But is there something tactile for you about picking up a book with the binding and the pages, and turning those pages, that as far as you're concerned, a computer just can't replace?

BUCKLEY: I would say yes. If people were to ask me the same thing about a typewriter back in 1981, I would have said yes. There is absolutely no -- nothing to replace the sound of that key hitting the paper. Well, the answer is there is. So that the question you really ask is, how hard would the adjustment be? And my guess is it would be less difficult than the adjustment already made to a word processor.

GREENFIELD (voice-over): Anne Rice, author of the best-selling Lestat vampire books, and of high-toned erotica as well, has readily adapted to the e-world. Her Web site draws an estimated 360,000 page views a year. So how does she regard the prospect of a book without paper, or cloth, or binding?

RICE: I'm really old fashioned, I want to hold a book in my hands and I want to sit back in my easy chair with it, and I guess I want pages that I can not only turn and spill coffee on, but actually mark on with a pen.

GREENFIELD: Love it or loathe it, the real future of reading may be a device like this. It's called an e-book, it can store a dozen or more books that can be downloaded over the Net. Its screen is readable. Its portability ends the oft-repeated complain about reading on a computer: how can you take that thing on to a bus, or into the bathroom? From intercontinental travelers to kids with a heavy book bag, this could change everything.

BUCKLEY: There is nothing inherently here that doesn't satisfy your curiosity about what's composed there, and there is a lot that, on the contrary, makes life easier, pushing this button instead of turning the page.

GREENFIELD: But it's not just putting books in a device, or on the Net. Publishers like Mark Bernstein are using technology to change the way books are written and how they are read. It's called hypertext, and it works like this: when a word is underlined, the reader can click his or her mouse on it and find out more about that particular part of the book, or make a decision to skip ahead, or just simply read on.

BERNSTEIN: It means that we can show things from several different angles at once.

GREENFIELD: This has obvious advantages when it comes to reference books like encyclopedias, or guide books. A few clicks can provide everything from updated data to the latest restaurant menus. But what about literature, works where the author's narrative sense may be crucial? Bernstein says we may be talking about a whole different way of telling a story.

BERNSTEIN: There is a famous moment in the first released successful hypertext fiction where Michael Joyce, the author of "Afternoon," asks, "Do you want to hear about it?" The hypertext responds to yes or to no. No leads to, "I understand how you feel." Instead of simply stopping the conversation, it reacts as the speaker, the protagonist, and also as the author would want to react to the skeptical or impatient reader.

GREENFIELD: But as technology marches on, one invention may actually make the physical book more viable than ever before. It's called the "Bookbuilder," and it will make a book for you from a library of CDs.

ED EAKIN, PUBLISHER, EAKIN PRESS: You don't print X numbers, large numbers of copies and put them in the warehouse. You print them as you need them.

GREENFIELD: It may be coming to a mall or bookstore near you soon. EAKIN: You will ask for a book and certain books, they'll go back and make it while you wait.

GREENFIELD: And even David Dice, the guy who still makes books by hand, is embracing technology.

DICE: I don't really feel any competition with the modern age in this at all, I sell my books on the Internet.

GREENFIELD: So the answer is, yes, of course there will be books around, books will survive.

RICE: Really, all of this is no threat to the printed book. People are predicting that the printed book is going to go out, but people have been predicting that for -- I'm trying to figure -- 40 years. So I don't think e-publishing is going to do away with the printed book. I think it may add a whole dimension, you know, it may reach a whole different audience, but it's not going to do away with the printed book.


GREENFIELD: If Stephen King's electronic novella "Riding the Bullet" was an Internet success, his other online experiment, called "The Plant," was a complete bust. King pulled the pay-as-you-click series last month, after interest in future installments dwindled -- another example of why the printed word just might be around for awhile.

And that's this edition of CNN & TIME. I'm Jeff Greenfield.

SHAW: And I'm Bernard Shaw. Thanks for joining us.



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