ad info

Editions | myCNN | Video | Audio | Headline News Brief | Feedback  





Bush signs order opening 'faith-based' charity office for business

Rescues continue 4 days after devastating India earthquake

DaimlerChrysler employees join rapidly swelling ranks of laid-off U.S. workers

Disney's is a goner


4:30pm ET, 4/16









CNN Websites
Networks image

Larry King Live

Husband of Pregnant Mother Murdered for Unborn Son Speaks Out; Will the U.S. Retaliate for Yesterday's Terrorist Attack?

Aired October 13, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight on LARRY KING LIVE, will the United States retaliate for yesterday's terrorist attack on a Navy destroyer? We'll ask Secretary of Defense William Cohen and Chief of U.S. Naval Operations Admiral Vern Clark.

Then, reaction from families, as the bodies of sailors killed in the attack return home.

And former FBI Director William Sessions gives insight into the search for who's responsible.

Then, a shocking story about a pregnant mother murdered for her unborn son. The child's father describes his terrible ordeal.

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We begin this evening with two guests at the Pentagon. They are William Cohen, the United States secretary of defense, and Admiral Vern Clark, who is chief of the United States naval operations.

Secretary Cohen, can you get us up to date on the latest numbers we have, that's on the dead, update on the wounded?

WILLIAM COHEN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, as you know, we have identified seven as being dead. We have some 38 dead -- wounded, and we have 10 who are missing. And they are presumed to be dead, but we hope that that's not the case, but that is our working assumption right now.

KING: Admiral Clark, I guess the question everybody's asking is, how could this happen?

ADM. VERN CLARK, CHIEF, U.S. NAVAL OPERATIONS: Well, that's what we're going to find out in the investigation that follows. We certainly have to have answers to that question. We have described a scenario the way it unfolded, and we have some preliminary information.

But the key thing for us at this juncture is to take care of the people that are suffering, and that is dealing with the families down in, particularly in Norfolk, but we also have them spread, parents, across the country, taking care of the injured sailors. And I can report to you that of all those that are injured, they are all now either at or en route to Germany, those that were taken off the ship, or they have been returned to duty on the USS Cole.

KING: So, then, nobody -- none of them are in critical condition, Admiral?

CLARK: There were about three individuals that were in the hospital in Djabouti that were in very serious condition. The word late this afternoon was that they were in -- they were stable enough for us to move into Germany, and they are en route now.

KING: Secretary Cohen, doesn't this mean an obvious breakdown somewhere in security?

COHEN: We don't know exactly what has occurred, Larry. That's why we have to have this inquiry, to find out whether the appropriate procedures were followed, how this particular boat was able to put explosives on the boat. We don't know definitively how it all unfolded, but we are at least working on the assumption that this was a boat loaded with some high explosives that approached the ship and caused extensive damage.

Again, we don't want to reach a final judgment yet, but it appears to be an act of terrorism, and that's what we're going to pursued with all of our intelligence community to see exactly what took place, identify individuals. If it was a group or individual terrorists, we are going to identify them, track them down and hold them fully accountable.

And I want to assure all the parents who are suffering today because of the loss of their family members that we are committed to that.

KING: Mr. Secretary, is it a good clue since it appeared to be a suicide mission? Does that give us an inking? Does that break down who might have been the culprit?

COHEN: It doesn't at this point because there are a number of different groups who operate throughout the Middle East, not only in Aden but also throughout much of the Middle East. And there are a variety of groups, and we haven't identified those who might have been operating in the area at this time or drawn the final connection to the terrorist operation, per se.

But there's no way at this point, with the information we have, that we can specifically identify who or what group may have been involved.

KING: Admiral Clark, what's the potential for retaliation? The president was very firm that justice will be brought to a head. Does this mean diplomatic justice or armed justice?

CLARK: Well, what we know is that we have to find out who is responsible for this egregious act, and then the National Command Authority and the president, being advised by the secretary of defense and his other advisers, would make judgments on a particular action.

What I can say is that the United States Navy will be ready to respond to the taskings of the National Command Authority.

KING: And so, Secretary Cohen, that means the Navy is ready to go whatever they're told to do?

COHEN: The Navy is fully capable of carrying out whatever mission we assign to the Navy.

And I just want to take this occasion to express certainly my condolence to the families, but also to tell all the American people how proud they need to be of our sailors who are working around the clock, who are fatigued with the job that they have had before them to deal with this tragedy, and yet to maintain their composure and professionalism, and they're prepared to carry out whatever duty we assign them.

The American people out to be justifiably proud of the people who are serving us in uniform. This only brings to the forefront what we continue to talk about: service and sacrifice. Every day, they're out there putting their lives at risk in service of out country and the cause of freedom.

KING: Admiral Clark, do we see any relationship between this act of terrorism and other acts against the United States?

CLARK: Well, the way I see this, Larry, is that we are operating around the world. And we understand in our operations, as a world leader, that we have friends all over the globe. We also have a few people who do not like us. So it stands to -- we know from past history that some of those who would like to thwart our leadership, our ability to represent ourselves in the areas of the world where we have a specific interest, national interests, they might be interested -- they are interested -- in limiting our influence.

Having said that, I don't have any way at this point in time to tie this particular act to any specific group.

KING: We'll have some other quick questions for Secretary of Defense, William Cohen and Admiral Vern Clark, chief of U.S. naval operations right after this brief time out.

We'll be right back.


KING: Secretary Cohen, there were women on this ship, women fatalities. Are women commonly serving on destroyers?

COHEN: Women are serving throughout the military, and they are serving on our ships with the exclusion of submarines. But they serve on destroyers and in other surface ships, yes.

KING: How are we dealing, Admiral, with the families and relatives? CLARK: That is a great question and I'm glad you asked it. The commands in Norfolk are going all out to support the families down there. And I would just report to you, I was talking to the chief of naval personnel, who is the individual who has the lead for this kind of support activity.

In the first 20 hours after this egregious act occurred, we set up a hotline for families to call in. We had over 6,300 calls in the first 20 hours.

Within 24 hours of the event occurring, we had been able to get in contact personally, personal contact, for those families that had suffered fatalities and those families that were missing. All of those were contacted personally, and then contacting those that were injured. All of that took place within 24 hours. That took a about great deal of effort, and a lot of people working hard to make that happen.

There are people reaching out throughout the country to support our people, and I just want to say to the people around the United States, I have had calls from all over, Larry, and it is so fulfilling to see the response from the nation, offers for help. It is truly gratifying.

And on behalf of our people, and specifically the men and women of the United States Ship Cole and their families, we really appreciate it.

KING: Mr. Secretary, what are the memorial plans? The bodies go to Dover, Delaware tomorrow?

COHEN: Those that have been killed, identified, will be going to Delaware, to Dover. But we will have a memorial service on next Wednesday. And we will continue to proceed with the others who are still missing, obviously, and treat the wounded, as Admiral Clark has indicated. But there will be a memorial service next Wednesday.

KING: Do we have, Secretary Cohen, an alert, however we indicate an alert, to other ships sailing all around the world to look out for whatever might occur?

COHEN: Indeed, we have increased the alert throughout the area of operation, throughout the Middle East, for all of our ships, all our installations, and we have placed a higher alert on most of our facilities globally.

KING: What's the condition of the ship, Admiral?

CLARK: Well, today -- a lot has gone on today, and of course it's nightfall over there now. But the assist teams moved into action this morning. We've had repair specialists on scene. They have conducted dives on the ship. And actually, we have found out some new information.

For example, I reported yesterday that we had a 20 by 40 foot hole in the side of the ship. The reality is we couldn't see the hole that was under the water, and it's closer to 40 by 40.

What I can also tell you is the ship, the men and women on that ship, they're heroes. They're fighting for their ship every minute. What do I mean by that? I don't mean that the ship is in danger of going down. What I mean is they are winning the battle against the damage. They have stabilized the ship, they have contained the damage, the flooding is under control in all of the spaces. They have regained full electric power throughout the ship with generators in standby. The communications were reestablished today. We have satellite communications established with the commander of the 5th Fleet. So they're making great progress out there.

KING: And what, Admiral, is the morale on the ship?

CLARK: Well Admiral Moore, when I spoke to him a few hours ago, indicated he was there today, and I talked to him when he concluded his day. He indicated to me that the people are primarily extraordinarily fatigued. They have had a 24-30 hour period that is unlike anything a human being experiences in their life, because they, as I said, they're fighting for their ship. And they're fighting to support their shipmates.

They are strong young men and women, and they are serving their ship and their shipmates, and I couldn't be more proud of them. Admiral Moore said that it was absolutely eye watering the way they were performing.

KING: One other thing, Secretary Cohen, are you meeting with the president tonight? Is there a briefing in store? Are plans being made?

COHEN: Yes, we will be meeting with the president and his entire national security team to review the, certainly, the intelligence that's been collected over the last 24 hours, also reviewing steps that can be taken, also reviewing the entire situation in the Middle East.

This is an ongoing process, and we will continue to review everything. And once again, let me say that -- to the families of those who have lost their family members that we are saddened. This, as I've indicated, is a hole not only in that ship but in our hearts, and everyone in the United States should appreciate the men and women who are serving us. And this is a reminder of the dangers we face throughout the world and the commitment and the patriotism of the people who are serving us.

KING: And one other quick thing, do either of you plan to go there?

COHEN: I don't plan to travel to the region at this time while there is so much work that needs to be done, so many people who were there. We have a large number of FBI and security teams in the region, a large number of press persons, as well. And what we need now is to make sure that we secure the ship, to make sure that we get everything under examination. And I think it would be probably counterproductive for me or anyone else from Washington to be traveling there at this time.

KING: Thank you both very much.

CLARK: Thank you, Larry.

COHEN: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Secretary William Cohen, the secretary of defense, Admiral Vern Clark, chief of U.S. naval operations.

More after these words.


KING: Joining us now at our studios in Washington is Thomas Wibberley. Thomas is the father of the late seaman apprentice Craig Wibberley, 19 years old, killed aboard the USS Cole.

I thank you very much for joining us for a couple moments here, Craig.

How did you learn of your son's death?

THOMAS WIBBERLEY, FATHER OF VICTIM: I first heard about it on the news, and then they announced that the Cole had been hit. And I went home from work, and we waited, just watching the news. And about 2:30 in the afternoon, two sailors and a chaplain from Fort Detrick came up to our home in Williamsport and informed us that Craig had been killed.

KING: As soon as you saw them you knew, right?

WIBBERLEY: Oh, yes, when I saw them pull up in their cars.

KING: There's no way we can even contemplate what it's like to lose a son. Were you very close with your boy?

WIBBERLEY: Yes, I was very close with Craig. We did a lot of things together. We enjoyed being together. We had gotten very close. And he was an excellent student and had a great deal of friends, and I was very close with all of them. And it really hurts to think that I'm never going to be able to see him again.

KING: Here's the picture taken aboard the Cole. He's waiving, as we can see.


KING: When was the last time you heard from him?

WIBBERLEY: I had gotten an e-mail from him on Wednesday evening, because we stayed in contact pretty regularly about two or three times a week.

KING: Right.

WIBBERLEY: We could e-mail each other and kept track of everything.

KING: He wanted to make the Navy a career?

WIBBERLEY: He was proud to be in the Navy. I don't think he had made up his mind whether to stay in or not. I know he was working very hard trying to learn everything he could, getting qualified in everything they offered. He was really trying to better himself. He was taking college courses even on board ship.

KING: Boy.

WIBBERLEY: And he was very focused. He knew what he wanted to do, what field he wanted too get into. As a matter of fact he had -- his commanding officer had just approved his request to go to communications school, radioman's school when they got back. And...

KING: I understand that they're starting a scholarship in his name?

WIBBERLEY: Yes, we just started that today. It came up because there were so many people that I work with who were calling and wanting to know if there was any fund set up or anything. And so I decided -- I got in contact with where he went to school, to Washington County Technical High School, where he studied computer science and learned for two years. And there are wonderful, wonderful teachers there and did such a great job with Craig and helped make him the person he was today, And I decided that I wanted to set up a scholarship fund in his name. And...

KING: How do people contribute?

WIBBERLEY: They can contribute by sending any contributions to the Washington County Technical High School. The address is 50 West Oak Ridge Drive in Hagerstown, Maryland. The ZIP code is 21740.

KING: And it's the Craig Wibberley Scholarship Fund.

WIBBERLEY: Yes, yes, Craig Wibberley.

KING: One other thing, how's your wife taking it?

WIBBERLEY: It's pretty hard, but we've had an awful lot of great friends that have been with us both helping us, and all of Craig's friends have been by, because I always welcomed them in our home. They were always welcome, and they've been there...

KING: You've heard...

WIBBERLEY: ... and that helps a lot.

KING: You've heard what the admiral had to say, Thomas. Are you angry at the Navy in any way? How are you venting your sorrow?

WIBBERLEY: No, I'm not angry at the Navy. Craig was proud to be in the Navy and to serve his country. I'm just very mad that these people would do this type of thing and kill innocent people that are just over in that part of the world trying to preserve peace. And I'm very angry at them, and I hope they get caught and I hope they're all executed.

KING: Thank you, Thomas. Our condolence, of course.

WIBBERLEY: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Thomas Wibberley in Washington.

Joining us now from Austin, Texas, is Mark and Michelle Poston. Michelle is the mother of 19-year-old Keisha Stidham. Mark is Keisha's stepfather. How did you learn -- there's your beautiful daughter. How do you learn she was hurt, Michelle?

MICHELLE POSTON, MOTHER OF VICTIM: Well, yesterday afternoon, actually in the morning around 11:00, I arrived home. I was out of pocket, and I didn't know what had happened at all. And I had a recording on the phone from her grandfather who'd saw the news. He was in Houston, and he called me assuming I knew and wanted to know if I knew anything else.

We didn't know what had happened just yet to her, whether she was still alive or not at that point.

KING: Where is she being treated, do you know?

MICHELLE POSTON: Right now she's been transported to -- I think she is in Ramstein, Germany.

KING: Are you going to go over there?

MICHELLE POSTON: We are waiting to hear if she's going to stay there through the weekend. If she is going to stay through the weekend, we're going to Germany. If she's going stateside, you know, soon...

KING: You'll wait.


KING: Mark, were you nervous when you knew where she was and where she was stationed and where she was going?

MARK POSTON, STEP FATHER OF VICTIM: No, I wasn't nervous as far as that goes, no.

KING: In other words, you felt totally comfortable with your step daughter in the Navy and never had fear in a peacetime Navy of anything happening to her?

MARK POSTON: It's so rare that it happens. I mean, this is actually such an amazing thing that they happened to choose this ship out of all the other ships that were in that fleet.

KING: She wanted to be a sailor, did she not, Michelle?

MARK POSTON: Yes, she did.

KING: Michelle, your daughter wanted to be in the Navy?

MICHELLE POSTON: Yes, she did. She wanted to be in the Navy. She was just about to graduate from high school, and there were different recruiting officers were at her school. One challenged her, saying that she couldn't do it. She was a woman and she couldn't do it. And she showed them, and she went in -- of course, not into that armed service.

KING: Well, Godspeed that a lot of this is luck, as you know, and your good fortune having her alive didn't happen for Thomas. In know how you must feel about him and the others.

MICHELLE POSTON: Oh, my heart goes out.

MARK POSTON: My heart goes out.

MICHELLE POSTON: Our hearts go out to all the parents, all the parents.

KING: Give our best to Keisha.

MARK POSTON: Thank you very much.

MICHELLE POSTON: We will, thank you.

KING: When we come back, William Sessions, the former director of the FBI, tells us what they're doing.

And then an extraordinarily different story later.

Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, from San Antonio, an old friend, William Sessions, the former director of the FBI. Nice to see him looking so well.

Secretary Cohen...


KING: Secretary Cohen -- thank you -- Secretary Cohen told us how the FBI was on the scene en masse. When did the FBI start getting involved when things occur internationally?

SESSIONS: Larry, at the moment of the incident, almost in every incident, the FBI knows it will be called into action and is prepared to do that.

KING: But wasn't the FBI used to be just domestic?

SESSIONS: Well, the FBI has a domestic responsibility, it has a counter-terrorism responsibility that now is virtually worldwide. KING: I see.

SESSIONS: So what does happen is with the cooperation of law enforcement in those particular countries where investigations need to be carried out, our legal attaches of the FBI have traditionally been able to establish that connection and work very carefully in the countries that cooperate. And President Salih has actually said that they will be fully cooperative, so I assume they will.

KING: A lot of agents, he said, are there. They need a large contingent on something like this?

SESSIONS: Well, they need an expertise. The size of it may not reflective of that, but I understand there may be up to a hundred law enforcement people there. But the expertise is what is critically needed. And it's -- it will be a large investigation and a very rapid response, if needed. And the critical incident response group is already there, if needed. So they'll...

KING: This is real...

SESSIONS: They'll respond in kind.

KING: This is real state of the art, isn't it, Bill?

SESSIONS: Well, it has to be. You understand that that took place out in a harbor with a small dingy that pulled alongside a ship and exploded, apparently. And apparently there's no question that it actually was that source. So the finding of evidence, the keeping of evidence, the recording of it, all those things that relate to the forensics of it, to be sure that we have all the information we can possibly glean from the crime scene. And that's just a small part of the investigation.

KING: We'll spend more time with William Sessions to get us up to date on the FBI and what it does in a matter like this, and then the extraordinary story of Jon Andrews and his living little infant son.


Don't go away.


KING: We are back with former FBI Director William Sessions.

This is such a volatile area of the world. Aren't there potential dangers to the investigators?

SESSIONS: I think there are, Larry.

And listening to Admiral Clark and to Secretary Cohen and to Craig's father and Keisha's parents, you are reminded of the extraordinary debt of gratitude that the American people owe to these people in the military services who put their life on the line day in and day out and receive little thanks for it -- and the parents and the grandparents and these people who suffer when their children are in those very dangerous areas -- FBI agents, those people who are doing the same basic kind of work in a very dangerous area.

KING: Yes. We remember the World Trade Center. We remember Lockerbie. Do we have a time expectation on this, putting the facts together?

SESSIONS: I think some of it, yes, I think we do. You remember the World Trade Center, there was a great sense that it was caused by people who were in no way involved in it. But within 48 hours, we found an axle. An axle was found down in the World Trade Center, which actually immediately went to a rental agency, which immediately identified a person who came back to get his deposit.

An so we had a windfall there. But it took months and months of meticulous investigation to do it. With Pan Am 103, again, you have some instance which take forever to find the various needles in the various haystacks around the world that will allow you to actually solve the crime. And so it will take time. It will take patience. It will take very diligent investigative -- and very great cooperation by a number of people, a number of countries around the world.

KING: Do you also work with undercover people or snitches who might be telling you about potential suspects?

SESSIONS: Well, I think there is always an opportunity for people who do know -- do have information, who are suddenly either overwhelmed by the enormity of the crime or want to protect their own hide to cooperate. So whether they're in Yemen or whether they're someplace else in the world, there's a great deal of information that flows from people who decide -- for one reason or another -- to help law enforcement solve those problems and bring people to justice.

KING: Now, once you do find out, that doesn't make it easy to capture, right?

SESSIONS: No, it does not. But we have done some of that. And the marvelous thing about American citizens is we care for our armed forces people. We care for our people at risk. And we don't forget. We stay with it to be sure that the -- that, in fact, we've done everything we possibly can do to make sure that justice is done.

KING: Is it doubly difficult when they're dealing with being in the water?

SESSIONS: Well, as you know, we've had a number of incidents, including TWA, where the FBI and National Transportation Safety Board have done incredible work in reconstructing what actually happened, and are able to figure out from evidence from all sources, including telemetry, and overhead sources, and communication -- we figure these things out. So in time, it will be done, I'm confident.

KING: Would you say, with your knowledge and background, they are going to solve this? SESSIONS: Yes, I would indeed. And I have great confidence not only -- there are so many others than the FBI who will actually will be involved in bringing about a solution to this, including those foreign countries. And I take the President Saleh at hits word that they will cooperate and they will see that the cooperation is full and extensive.

KING: Thank you, Bill, always great seeing you.

SESSIONS: Pleasure to talk to you. Good night.

KING: William Sessions, the former director of the FBI.

When we come back: Jon Andrews is the father of a baby, Oscar Gavin Andrews. The baby was born under very unusual circumstances. The mother was killed by the woman who then took the baby from the mother's body -- the mother who -- and then adopted the role of being the mother. And then that lady winds up killing herself. Jon now has an infant baby -- no wife, no mother.

We will be back with his story. His attorney is with him too. Don't go away.


KING: Joining us now from Cleveland, Ohio is Jon Andrews, along with his little baby, Oscar Gavin Andrews. The baby is just over two weeks old -- handsome little lad. And with us also is Nicholas Phillips, who is the attorney for the Andrews family.

Nicholas, could you briefly tell us -- for the audience that may not know about this -- what happened here?

NICHOLAS PHILLIPS, ANDREWS FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, Larry, what happened, this case started back on Wednesday, September 27, when Jon Andrews came home looking for his wife and she wasn't there. They were selling a jeep in Ravenna, Ohio.

And what happened is that Theresa, his wife, called him at work to say someone is coming out to look at the Jeep. What happened is that Jon called back and there was no answer. He came home. There was no answer. And starting on that day, Jon started to send the word out that, you know: We have to find Theresa.

From that point on, the media became involved. The friends and family all became involved. The community became involved. And thousands of flyers started to be posted all over northeast Ohio and parts of Pennsylvania. Everyone was looking for Theresa, hoping among all hope that maybe she was having a bad hair day or something. As the police continued to investigate the case, it turned out that the police were able to, by the weekend -- or after the weekend -- come up with a telephone number of the Bica family from a paid cell phone.

What happened is that the police started to investigate. And as they approached the woman on the afternoon or early evening...

KING: This -- this was the woman who was supposed to be the buyer of the car?

PHILLIPS: That's correct.

KING: OK. And they -- as they approached, she killed herself? Is that what happened?

PHILLIPS: She killed herself, that's correct. And the police later found a baby they identified as Baby Jon Doe, removed the child from the house and took the child immediately to the hospital. And that was Monday night. It wasn't until early Monday -- or early Tuesday morning that they found Theresa's body.

KING: Where?

PHILLIPS: And -- they found it buried in a grave in the garage. And the forensic people and the investigators dug up the body. And they ended up bringing that information to Jon very early in the morning Tuesday.

KING: And they surmised that this woman killed the woman by stabbing her and then removed the baby?

PHILLIPS: The county coroner had information, as they did the autopsy, about how this was done and the fact that mercifully, the mother -- she was killed by the Bica woman. And then the baby was somehow immediately removed. The baby is in remarkably good shape. It was taken...

KING: This is -- we are showing now the picture of the woman who did apparently did the murder and killed herself. How was Jon's wife killed?

PHILLIPS: It's understanding she was killed by a single shot from the back that pierced her heart. And she died rather instantly.

KING: Is the summation that this Bica woman was looking to have a baby and this was a way of getting one?

PHILLIPS: That's what we understand, that she was probably stalking for some time.

KING: All right, Jon?


KING: How have you dealt with all of this?

ANDREWS: A day at a time, to be honest with you. It's pretty overwhelming and unbelievable, to be honest also.

KING: What did you think when your wife -- when you couldn't find her at home? What were your thoughts?

ANDREWS: I immediately knew something was wrong, knowing her. Her shoes were there, her purse was there, her breakfast was on the table, her keys were missing and the front door was unlocked. So I immediately knew that there was something wrong because I couldn't get a hold of her. And all the stuff she had left, I feared, you know, for the worst that somebody took her.

KING: Is this your first baby?

ANDREWS: Yes, it is.

KING: When were you married?

ANDREWS: May of 96.

KING: Were you a very, very close couple?

ANDREWS: Oh, yes. We were best friends. We had known each other since '94. We were best friends for a while. We were engaged for a year and a half. We had a wonderful life together.

KING: Did you know or anyone you know, know the Bica woman?

ANDREWS: As a matter of fact, about three or four weeks before my wife disappeared we ran into Michelle Bica and her husband, Tom, at Wal-Mart.

KING: Really?

ANDREWS: Yes, down the street. We were shopping for some baby first aid stuff. And we ran into them, and they struck up a conversation talking about how much stuff a baby needs, and very friendly. And, you know, they asked if we lived in the area, and we told them. And they knew what we were having and when we were having it. But we didn't think that was unusual. We had met several pregnant couples, you know, by going to different classes in the area, and we just thought they were another friendly couple.

KING: Jon, is Thomas -- do they -- do police think Thomas, her husband, the killer's husband, was involved?

ANDREWS: I don't know that officially. So far, I have heard that he passed the polygraph, so I don't know.

KING: Was he -- did he seem to be in shock when he learned of it to your knowledge?

ANDREWS: I have no idea. I haven't heard from him or much about him. to be honest with you.

KING: Do we have any idea how she killed herself?

ANDREWS: Probably horrible guilt. You know, she...

KING: She knew what she had done, and she knew they found her.


KING: Did the coroner explain to you how the baby lived?

ANDREWS: No, I don't know. I tried to stay away from the gory details. I don't need to know that.

KING: Nicholas, why does Jon need an attorney in this?

PHILLIPS: Well, we were called very early in this case. We were involved in another case similar to this some years ago, and what happens is that there are certain dynamics that occur when a young man calls and says that his wife is missing.

Jon was identified as a suspect very early on because he's the father. Also, there were rumors and maybe a sense that Theresa just left on her own and just disappeared on her own free will.

Because of the circumstances of her leaving, there was really no forensic evidence to indicate that she left or had been abducted. So from the standpoint of getting the media involved, getting the community involved and acting as a buffer between the media, the community and the family, we were able to make sure the family had its time to, during the early phases of this entire story, was to work with the police and work with the people trying to find Theresa.

And then, of course, after things changed for the worse, it was a situation where we wanted to work with the family and keep them, again, working with the media to sort of pay back for all the help the media had been in spreading the word and keeping everyone alert for Theresa after we knew she would not be found alive.

KING: This is a story, Nicholas, if it were presented as fiction would not be believed.

PHILLIPS: It's too unbelievable.

KING: So something obviously was seriously wrong with Michelle.

PHILLIPS: We don't know all the details of her past life, but certainly it was a situation that the way it was presented, and it all led up to the situation. You couldn't tell that Michelle was a person who was stalking and someone who had these terrible plans.

KING: Do they think, Jon, that your wife was killed and then the baby was removed? Is that what the coroner thinks?

ANDREWS: Yes, that's what I've heard.

KING: And were they surprised that the baby was living?

ANDREWS: Yes, my wife had something called streptococcus B, and she needed to be on antibiotics during the delivery, either C-section or natural, or else the baby could die. And everybody at the hospital, all the nurses and everybody, is just amazed that the baby is unharmed. He's perfect.

KING: Is the baby, I mean, a good baby, a normal baby, eating well...

ANDREWS: He's eating great...

KING: ... thriving?

ANDREWS: Yes, he's eating great. He's very well behaved. He's gaining a lot of weight. He's just really a blessing.

KING: Back with more of this incredible story.


Don't go away.


KING: Jon, we have a video of your wedding. Was this -- by the way, I know this was a very happy marriage. Was it a planned pregnancy?

ANDREWS: Yes it was. We were planning on having kids from the very get-go, but we decided to wait until we were financially secure enough. And we had just got to that point that Theresa was able to quit working and would be able to stay home as a mother. So we were planning on this at the beginning of the year.

KING: Was it also true she was carrying large? This was going to be a big baby?

ANDREWS: Yes, he was very big. They said at 38 weeks she could deliver probably with no problem for his size.

KING: When they found her, then how old was the baby when the baby was found?

ANDREWS: I think five days old. He was born on the 27th, which was Wednesday, and they found him late Monday night. So I think that was the first or the second of October.

KING: Hey, Nicholas, how did the police find the assailant? They had no body.

PHILLIPS: You're talking about finding the assailant?

KING: I mean, the perpetrator.

PHILLIPS: What happened is the Bicas lived only a short distance from the Andrews' home in the same town of Ravenna. And with regard to the cell phone information they had and the fact they were tracking her down, they knew that she had a baby. And in talking to the neighbors, they knew the neighbors were aware that she had a baby recently delivered, like within the last couple of days.

So as soon as she committed suicide, what happened is that the police removed the child. And, as I mentioned earlier, the child was taken to the hospital, identified as Baby Doe. Under the control of the county at that time, there was a several day procedure to determine that this was, in fact, Jon's baby. And with DNA testing and so forth, the child was released to him. And the child lo longer is Baby John Doe, but the baby is Oscar Gavin Andrews. KING: Jon, how did you pick the name Oscar?

ANDREWS: It was a name Theresa picked. We liked Oscar Wilde, some of his writings, and we wanted a nice English name. And we wanted to see his face before we picked the name. We had picked Oscar Remington or Gavin Jonathan, but since we didn't get to pick his name together, I just decided to take the two first names, and Oscar was her favorite.

KING: Can you explain, Jon, what it's like to have the tragedy of a murder and the joy of a birth?

ANDREWS: It's the worst thing and the best thing that ever happened to me was on the same day, so it's very bitter sweet. But there seems to be a lot of good things coming from it. When I didn't think that this could be such a horrible world, there are so many good people I've got to meet through this. So it really is a blessing.

KING: Have you heard from a lot of people?

ANDREWS: Oh, tons of people, thousands of cards, several hundred people I talked to at Theresa's memorial service on Sunday. There were people waiting outside who couldn't even get in in the rain and the snow. I've talked to so many people, and they've all been wonderful and supportive and saying a lot of prayers. And it really does help.

KING: I'm not going to play psychologist here, but sometimes in the past, when there is death in childbirth, the father sometimes angry or bitter at the child, sort of blaming the child for the mother's death. Do you have any feelings along those lines?

ANDREWS: Oh, not at all. He's truly a blessing. He's wonderful. Every time I look into his eyes -- he's got beautiful blue eyes, just like his mother. The first time I actually really smiled throughout all this was when I saw him. It was absolutely wonderful, and I'm so grateful to have him. I feel so blessed, and every day is just wonderful, the day with him.

KING: Are your wife's parents alive?

ANDREWS: Yes, they are.

KING: How are they dealing with all this?

ANDREWS: They're dealing as well as me. I'm actually staying with them right now. We lived very close with them, and they're doing very well under the circumstances.

KING: Look at their pain. They lose a daughter and get a grandson.

ANDREWS: Yes, it's the same thing that I'm feeling, very bitter sweet. But Oscar's definitely helping all of us cope through this. To get him, you have to take what you can get right now in this world, and we thought we'd lost both of them. And to get him, we really feel fortunate.

KING: Nicholas, is any psychological counseling needed here? These people seem to be handling this very well.

PHILLIPS: Well, they seem to be handling it well now because since the very beginning they've just been surrounded by warm, loving people. They've had the attention of all the law-enforcement agencies, the Ravenna police, the FBI, the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. And with regard to, even now, the media attention, there's going to be some time where that's going to die down, and they're growing to be going home. They're going to be alone. And we anticipate that over some weeks they are going to start having this whole situation sink in, and we are looking at counseling and having that standing by, anticipating that that's what will happen to some degree.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining with Jon Andrews, Nicholas Phillips and baby Oscar right after this.


KING: Let's take a call.

Cleveland, Ohio, for Jon Andrews and Nicholas Phillips and Oscar Gavin Andrews -- hello.

CALLER: Hi, my name is Cecilia Sherard. I just had a baby myself two months ago. I want to express my extreme condolences. We have been following this case every single day -- sorry, it's just a very emotional case for us.

My question is to the attorney, who I'm sure is familiar with more of the actual details of the case, I was wondering along with my family how Michelle Bica was able to take Theresa from point A to point B with no assistance. I understand her husband was ruled out as a suspect, according to the news. He passed a lie-detector test.

For me, myself, like I told my husband, I'm nine months pregnant. If I feel that I'm in danger, I'm going to put up a fight...

KING: Yes, what if...

CALLER: You're going to have to really, you know...

KING: What if it was a gun drawn? Is that the thinking, Nicholas, that she was under gunpoint?

PHILLIPS: Well, you know, part of the problem with this case is that Theresa left the scene, and she apparently left things behind, like her purse, like her walking shoes. And part of the problem is that without having any clear trail or eyewitnesses, it's impossible to do anything but just speculate on how it could have happened.

KING: And what is the prevalent speculation?

PHILLIPS: Well, if we're speculating without evidence -- you know, in the criminal area, with regard to lawyers and laws and courts, cases have to be built on evidence, not speculation. But with regard to knowing Theresa and knowing that she was nine months pregnant, that if she did cooperate it was to protect the child, knowing that any resistance or any type of fighting could endanger the child.

So we know Theresa truly loved the child. Both Jon and Theresa had every single plan made on how to enjoy that child when he was to be born and be brought home. So the short answer to the question is, we don't know how she was taken from the house.

KING: Jon, the media was very helpful in this, weren't they?

ANDREWS: They were wonderful. I have a new, profound respect for the media. Everybody was very heartfelt. You could see it in everybody's eyes that they really cared and everybody worked really hard to try and bring Theresa home. And then since Theresa's not been able to come home through all this, they've been great with Oscar, very friendly.

KING: I guess the way to look at is this is a very blessed child?

ANDREWS: He's truly blessed. He's wonderful.

KING: Thank you both very much. Thanks, Nicholas, for helping arrange this. Jon Andrews, I give you a lot of credit.

ANDREWS: Thank you very much, Larry.

KING: Have a healthy life.

ANDREWS: Thank you very much.

KING: The best to little Oscar, maybe the youngest guess we've ever had on LARRY KING LIVE.

ANDREWS: I appreciate it.

KING: Tomorrow night on "LARRY KING WEEKEND," women and horses -- you're going to love this. And you're going to meet the governor of Minnesota's wife, too. And Rich Cohen, author of "The Avengers."

Monday night when we're back live, George McGovern, Mario Cuomo, Bob Dole, Bob Woodward. It's the eve of the last debate.

Then the night after the last debate, we'll have the moderator, Jim Lehrer, as our special guest.

That's all ahead on LARRY KING LIVE.

Coming up next, Jeff Greenfield's Friday edition of CNN NEWSSTAND with unusual people talking politics.

Thanks for joining us from New York.

Good night.



Back to the top  © 2001 Cable News Network. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines.