TalkBack Live

Does Religion Make a Difference in Politics?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My faith is part of me. It's at the center of who I have been all my life. I mean, I know that without, you know, God I wouldn't be here, so that -- where it all begins.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Religion and politics: Does one influence the other, and does it matter that the man Al Gore chose to run for vice president on the Democratic ticket is an Orthodox Jew?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RABBI JAMES RUDIN: It shows once and for all that barrier is broken forever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel that his choice of a Jewish president is going to cost Al Gore the election, because there's so much hate groups, anti-Semitism in this country.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I've been close to Joe Lieberman, it hasn't interfered with his duties as senator, and I don't think it will interfere with his duties in any way.

JONATHAN PARIS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: I think he separates his own Orthodox observance as a Jew who keeps the Sabbath with the views politically of Orthodox Jews in Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: In the year 2000, what role does religion play on the political stage?

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

Fewer than two hours ago, Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore made it official, and Senator Joseph Lieberman made his first political speech as the Democrats' choice for running mate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIEBERMAN: I remember so clearly watching in awe as John F. Kennedy, the inspiration and hero of my political life became the first Roman Catholic president of the United States. And I want to say to you today, that choosing me as his running mate says the same thing about the courage and character and fairness of Al Gore of Tennessee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Senator Joseph Lieberman is the first Orthodox Jew to run as a vice presidential candidate in a major party. Here to talk about whether that might be an issue for voters are Terry Jeffrey, editor of "Human Events" magazine; Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United For Separation of Church and State, he is an attorney and an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ; and Rabbi Joseph Potasnik is with us, spiritual leader of Congregation Mount Sinai in Brooklyn Heights, he is host of the WABC talk show "Religion on the Line."

Before we start, gentlemen, let's listen to how Joe Lieberman opened his speech today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIEBERMAN: Dear Lord, maker of all miracles, I thank you for bringing me to this extraordinary moment in my life, and Al Gore, I thank you for making this miracle possible for me and breaking this barrier for the rest of America forever. God bless you and thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: All right, Terry, let me start with you.

Despite the fact that most Americans, some 80, some 90 percent depending on the polls, say it does not matter to them what a politician's religious beliefs are. Do those beliefs matter when a person is holding public office?

TERRY JEFFREY, "HUMAN EVENTS" MAGAZINE: Well, sure, I think so. I haven't expected the liberals on the Supreme Court to step in and file an emergency injunction to shut Joe Lieberman up. I thought that was excellent what he did there, and I think America is a religious country, people in this country believe in God, and I think it reflects well on Joseph Lieberman and other political figures when they adhere to the faith that they are in and that they observe its holy days and its moral teachings. So I think it's a positive thing politically, and I think Gore made a good choice from his perspective.

BATTISTA: When should it matter, I mean, can you separate that?

JEFFREY: Well, look, I think if someone entered the primaries in either the Republican or the Democratic Party and said, "I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in the Ten Commandments, I don't believe that there are unchangeable moral rules that we have to live by"; I don't think he could get nominated in either party.

I think people in this country understand that the basic foundation of our political life are certain moral rules that are unchangeable, that come from God, that we talked about in our Declaration of Independence, and that no matter which side you fall down on any issue, ultimately you have to be able to explain it in terms of those unchangeable moral rules. And I suspect we're going to see Joe Lieberman trying to explain his political point of view in reference to the God he believes in and the moral law he accepts.

BATTISTA: Barry, do you have any problems with Joe Lieberman wearing his religion, if you will, on his sleeve like that?

BARRY LYNN, CHURCH-STATE SEPARATIST: No. I fully expected that today he would want Americans to know that he is a devout individual, that he is a man who believes in God. I would hope, though, that every political campaign speech we hear from Senator Lieberman does not begin as a prayer. I think that would be inappropriate. That would be just pounding and pounding in the fact that he is a deeply religious man. I think people who know Senator Lieberman know that he is absolutely committed to Orthodox Judaism, that he is a proponent of the faith and that he also, though, has a need to recognize always that it is the Constitution and not the Bible that is the guidebook for American policy and America's laws.

You know, Bobbie, when John Kennedy was running for the presidency he went to Houston in September of 1960 and gave the speech that might have been the most important speech in his whole electoral effort; he said, "I would not expect that any Catholic president would allow a Catholic prelate to tell him how to act nor would I expect any Protestant minister to tell his congregation for whom they should vote."

That was very important, he separated the constitutional issues from his personal faith, and I think many observers would say that speech guaranteed him the election, people were comfortable with it, and I think they can be comfortable with the faith of a George Bush, they can be comfortable with a faith of Joseph Lieberman as long as they don't try to ram it into every speech and begin to pander to particular voters.

BATTISTA: Rabbi Potasnik, if you are a devoutly religious person, how do you put the Constitution first over God?

RABBI JOSEPH POTASNIK, CONGREGATION MT. SINAI: Well, I would just say with regard to what the previous speaker said, that every time a president is sworn in he swears on the Bible to uphold the Constitution. So it is not Constitution and not Bible, it's Constitution and Bible helping one another. And I find that when someone is truly religious he also has great respect for those who are of other religions and also for people who may not be religious at all.

Joe Lieberman represents Connecticut, some 3 percent of Connecticut is Jewish, 97 percent non-Jews, some people are atheist, they have no problem with Joe Lieberman because they respect him as a person, and I think the prerequisite is that you have to be a mensch, you have to be a good person, and your religion enhances that menschlacut (ph). BATTISTA: Well, how does his religion, which is Orthodox Judaism, how has that impacted him as a person and a politician?

POTASNIK: I think when he reads the Bible, when he looks at his own tradition he finds -- for example, the prophets talk about the hungry, the homeless, those who need our help, the importance of working together as a community -- when he prays in the morning the first thing he has to say is, love your neighbor as yourself; he doesn't say your Jewish neighbor, your Christian, your neighbor refers to people. So that his religion gives him a mandate to serve the people of different faiths.

BATTISTA: Does he...

LYNN: You know, Reverend...

BATTISTA: Let me ask real quickly, is he faced, though, do you think with daily decisions of putting the Torah first or the Constitution first?

POTASNIK: I don't think so. I think one helps him with the other. The Torah asks him to be a moral person, to make moral choices. I don't see where that conflict would arise. When it comes to ritual, when it comes to food, he, of course, will not eat non- Kosher food, he will opt for the Kosher food. The Sabbath is a day of rest for him. However, he has said that when it comes to the Sabbath, he will do the essentials. So there are provisions for accommodation even within Orthodox Judaism.

BATTISTA: Barry, I'm sorry, go ahead.

LYNN: You know -- no, I just -- I -- it is true that most presidents nowadays do swear to uphold the Constitution with their hand on the Bible, but that's a practice that began, I think, in the third term of Franklin Roosevelt's presidency, it's not something that every president did before that and it is something that people now choose or not choose to do voluntarily.

I don't think there's any question that Senator Lieberman ought to have a moral compass, and he's made it very clear in his life in the Senate that he has that. My problem is only when someone decides to take that -- any religious position and decides to pander to a religious constituency, we have seen that done, I think we've seen it done in this campaign and I don't want to see anymore of it.

For example, Al Gore went up in February and got an endorsement from Reverend Floyd Flake of a major African Methodist Episcopal Church in New York, he knew that Al -- that he was going to be endorsed right from the pulpit, which actually creates tax law problems for that church, I don't think he should have done it. Similarly, George Bush declared Jesus Day, June the 10th, down in the state of Texas, I think those kinds of actions really cross the line, they shouldn't be done, that is not the role that religion ought to play in the political scene. So far, Mr. Lieberman has not done or said anything to lead me to believe he is going to go in that direction. JEFFREY: Wait a minute. One of the finest things that happened in our country in the second half of the 20th century is when a black Baptist minister named Martin Luther King took his religious principles into the political realm and debated the role of Jim Crow laws and racial discrimination in our society. If Martin Luther King and other black preachers in the South hadn't done that, we might not have gotten beyond Jim Crow.

So I think the rabbi is right. There's no conflict between the Torah and our constitution. Our constitution, I believe, is a continuation of our tradition that began with the Torah.

(CROSSTALK)

POTASNIK: Barry, if I could say, I agree that one who is religious needs to be respectful of those who are not religious. And my religion tells me to respect other people. That is the first thing I have to state each day: Respect the neighbor. It doesn't say respect your religious neighbor. So therefore, I think Joe Lieberman, who represents Connecticut, not known as the Orthodox Jewish state of Connecticut, is well aware of what it means to represent a community, a community that is made up of many people.

LYNN: No, I -- Yes, Rabbi, I don't have any objection to that. I do have the objection to the kinds of things that I saw. Martin Luther King, Terry Jeffrey, is very different. He talked about issues. He talked about the moral compass that he had. And he persuaded people. He did not go and take the time to endorse particular candidates or run political action committees out of his church. And it was the very moral fiber and the strength of that moral message that literally converted the minds of people, including a lot of Southern Democrats, to see civil rights as a value.

But it wasn't crass about it. And I hope that we enter this campaign with neither Republican or Democrat or Reform Party or Green Party or any other party pandering for particular religious viewpoints in order simply to garner votes. By their fruits, the Bible says, you shall know them. And I think we will know these candidates best as we see what they stand for, not just what they say.

BATTISTA: Let me -- I've got to take a break at this particular time. But when we come back, we'll talk about a couple examples, Barry, that you feel were evidence of pandering. As we do take a break, please feel free to take part in our TALKBACK LIVE online "Viewer Vote" as cnn.com/talkback.

Today's question: "Joe Lieberman's religion will help Gore, hurt Gore or have no effect."

When we come back talk, we'll talk about pandering and some examples of that -- right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LIEBERMAN: Dear friends, I am so full of gratitude at this moment. I ask you to allow me to let the spirit move me as it does to remember the words from Chronicles, which are to give thanks to God, to give thanks to God and declare his name and make his acts known to the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And Ed in California e-mails us saying: "I don't care if the good senator is Jewish or not, but if he keeps spouting religion and holding prayer session like he did today, he is going to lose me."

Why are we so offended by that, Barry? Do we not trust it, sometimes? You were talking about issue of pandering for political purposes.

LYNN: Yes, I think it's much to early to draw a conclusion about whether this is the way that Senator Lieberman is going to speak throughout the campaign, but I think that people do sense that when there's so many problems in the country, you identify your moral compass, but then you us it. You explain how it is going to affect the questions of health care delivery, Social Security, violence in our culture. And certainly Senator Lieberman has some answers, many answers to those issues.

But I can see why people would say: Why did he spend so much time today explaining a faith that most people, frankly -- just on the basis of the last 24 hours of news -- already knows that he possesses? And that may be what concerns people like Ed.

BATTISTA: Let me do another e-mail that came in, too, because this came up yesterday as well. Scott in Washington says: "Religion and politics is portrayed negatively by the press only when it is a Christian candidate."

Terry, I don't know whether you would agree with that necessarily, but at the same time, I think Christian candidates are welcoming the nomination of Joe Lieberman. I mean, but -- am I right in saying that, you know, you are thinking that if the Torah is allowed to guide public policy that perhaps the Bible will?

JEFFREY: Well, there's no question that it should. But the truth is that when it's a Christian conservative candidate, they get bashed by the liberal secular media. When it's a liberal Christian candidate or figure, they don't get bashed. Reverend Falwell, Reverend Robertson get bashed. Reverend Jackson, Reverend Sharpton don't. But let me make one more reference to Martin Luther King.

When he was thrown in jail in 1963 in Birmingham and wrote his famous letter, he referred to the Bible, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, but most importantly to the Declaration of Independence and its principle that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. I believe the correct view of our society is that the one unifying principle that Americans believe in is that statement in the Declaration. It is the argument that let Martin Luther King liberate the South from segregation. It's the thing that can bring our country back together today. And it's the thing that the Republicans were invoking last week at their convention. And I think it is a very positive thing that Joseph Lieberman is invoking it today on behalf of Democrats.

LYNN: You know, Bobbie, many of us are critical, whatever it is, whether Democrat, Republican, independent, when they cross a line that they shouldn't, when they start to campaign or use church resources to promote particular candidates. I complained to the Internal Revenue Service about the Reverend Floyd Flake, a liberal pastor endorsing Al Gore. And I've complained to the Internal Revenue Service about some of Jerry Falwell's particular activities that I thought crossed the line -- not his personal support for George Bush -- that's fine -- but institutional support of some of his charities for that candidacy.

I don't think Terry is right that we only get worried about this when it happens to be conservative Christian. I think the right position, the constitutionally acceptable position, is to be rightly concerned whenever somebody crosses that forbidden line.

POTASNIK: Bobbie, I just wanted to say that when you look that Declaration of Independence, it talks of the individual without regard to race or creed. And therefore, the individual has the right to speak of his creed. What Lieberman did today I think was completely acceptable. Here is a historic moment in the history of this country. Just think that, even after the Declaration of Independence, there were Jews who couldn't hold public office.

And now you have Lieberman coming forth and says: Thank God for this day. There's nothing wrong with that. I also understand the need to be inclusive. And I think Joe Lieberman has demonstrated that he is So I think the rabbi is right. There's no conflict between the Torah and our constitution. Our constitution, I believe, is a continuation of our tradition that began with the Torah.

(CROSSTALK)

POTASNIK: Barry, if I could say, I agree that one who is religious needs to be respectful of those who are not religious. And my religion tells me to respect other people. That is the first thing I have to state each day: Respect the neighbor. It doesn't say respect your religious neighbor. So therefore, I think Joe Lieberman, who represents Connecticut, not known as the Orthodox Jewish state of Connecticut, is well aware of what it means to represent a community, a community that is made up of many people.

LYNN: No, I -- Yes, Rabbi, I don't have any objection to that. I do have the objection to the kinds of things that I saw. Martin Luther King, Terry Jeffrey, is very different. He talked about issues. He talked about the moral compass that he had. And he persuaded people. He did not go and take the time to endorse particular candidates or run political action committees out of his church. And it was the very moral fiber and the strength of that moral message that literally converted the minds of people, including a lot of Southern Democrats, to see civil rights as a value.

But it wasn't crass about it. And I hope that we enter this campaign with neither Republican or Democrat or Reform Party or Green Party or any other party pandering for particular religious viewpoints in order simply to garner votes. By their fruits, the Bible says, you shall know them. And I think we will know these candidates best as we see what they stand for, not just what they say.

BATTISTA: Let me -- I've got to take a break at this particular time. But when we come back, we'll talk about a couple examples, Barry, that you feel were evidence of pandering. As we do take a break, please feel free to take part in our TALKBACK LIVE online "Viewer Vote" as cnn.com/talkback.

Today's question: "Joe Lieberman's religion will help Gore, hurt Gore or have no effect."

When we come back talk, we'll talk about pandering and some examples of that -- right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIEBERMAN: Dear friends, I am so full of gratitude at this moment. I ask you to allow me to let the spirit move me as it does to remember the words from Chronicles, which are to give thanks to God, to give thanks to God and declare his name and make his acts known to the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And Ed in California e-mails us saying: "I don't care if the good senator is Jewish or not, but if he keeps spouting religion and holding prayer session like he did today, he is going to lose me."

Why are we so offended by that, Barry? Do we not trust it, sometimes? You were talking about issue of pandering for political purposes.

LYNN: Yes, I think it's much to early to draw a conclusion about whether this is the way that Senator Lieberman is going to speak throughout the campaign, but I think that people do sense that when there's so many problems in the country, you identify your moral compass, but then you us it. You explain how it is going to affect the questions of health care delivery, Social Security, violence in our culture. And certainly Senator Lieberman has some answers, many answers to those issues.

But I can see why people would say: Why did he spend so much time today explaining a faith that most people, frankly -- just on the basis of the last 24 hours of news -- already knows that he possesses? And that may be what concerns people like Ed.

BATTISTA: Let me do another e-mail that came in, too, because this came up yesterday as well. Scott in Washington says: "Religion and politics is portrayed negatively by the press only when it is a Christian candidate."

Terry, I don't know whether you would agree with that necessarily, but at the same time, I think Christian candidates are welcoming the nomination of Joe Lieberman. I mean, but -- am I right in saying that, you know, you are thinking that if the Torah is allowed to guide public policy that perhaps the Bible will?

JEFFREY: Well, there's no question that it should. But the truth is that when it's a Christian conservative candidate, they get bashed by the liberal secular media. When it's a liberal Christian candidate or figure, they don't get bashed. Reverend Falwell, Reverend Robertson get bashed. Reverend Jackson, Reverend Sharpton don't. But let me make one more reference to Martin Luther King.

When he was thrown in jail in 1963 in Birmingham and wrote his famous letter, he referred to the Bible, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, but most importantly to the Declaration of Independence and its principle that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. I believe the correct view of our society is that the one unifying principle that Americans believe in is that statement in the Declaration.

It is the argument that let Martin Luther King liberate the South from segregation. It's the thing that can bring our country back together today. And it's the thing that the Republicans were invoking last week at their convention. And I think it is a very positive thing that Joseph Lieberman is invoking it today on behalf of Democrats.

LYNN: You know, Bobbie, many of us are critical, whatever it is, whether Democrat, Republican, independent, when they cross a line that they shouldn't, when they start to campaign or use church resources to promote particular candidates. I complained to the Internal Revenue Service about the Reverend Floyd Flake, a liberal pastor endorsing Al Gore. And I've complained to the Internal Revenue Service about some of Jerry Falwell's particular activities that I thought crossed the line -- not his personal support for George Bush -- that's fine -- but institutional support of some of his charities for that candidacy.

I don't think Terry is right that we only get worried about this when it happens to be conservative Christian. I think the right position, the constitutionally acceptable position, is to be rightly concerned whenever somebody crosses that forbidden line.

POTASNIK: Bobbie, I just wanted to say that when you look that Declaration of Independence, it talks of the individual without regard to race or creed. And therefore, the individual has the right to speak of his creed. What Lieberman did today I think was completely acceptable. Here is a historic moment in the history of this country. Just think that, even after the Declaration of Independence, there were Jews who couldn't hold public office.

And now you have Lieberman coming forth and says: Thank God for this day. There's nothing wrong with that. I also understand the need to be inclusive. And I think Joe Lieberman has demonstrated that he is a very inclusive person, who is committed to his own people. And because of his commitment is concerned about all people. So it's how religion is used: Is it used to exclude? Or is it used to embrace? And I think we've seen abuses, but we've also seen the use of religion in a very healthy fashion.

BATTISTA: Rabbi, let me ask you something else, too, because there are some Jews out there who do not think this is a good thing for Jews, that having an Orthodox Jew in such a high-profile position could actually produce a backlash, an anti-Semitic backlash, or they just feel like Orthodox Jews do not belong in politics. Is this a good thing for Jews?

POTASNIK: I think it's a wonderful thing for Jews, and I think there are those Jews who are insecure, but I would remind those Jews that during that oil embargo, and some of those people said they're going to blame the Jews in Israel for the oil embargo, Americans acted admirably and did not castigate Israel or the Jews. They, as a matter of fact, found the other side was responsible,

I think we need to think a little bit higher, and we have to see America in its finest moment, and this is a beautiful time for all of us, and we need to really celebrate the fact that someone who is Orthodox Jew can be a vice president.

LYNN: I think it's great for the country, because I think that one of the things we've learned that people don't look at religious affiliation as something that ought to guide their vote. You know, long before there was a Bill of Rights, Bobbie, there was provision in article six of our Constitution that said, "There shall be no religious tests for public office." George Washington himself went one to one of the earliest, first Jewish congregations in Rhode Island, and said the one great thing about this country is, we don't have a tolerance for other religions. We have genuine religious liberty. There's nobody that's granting you the privilege of being religious. When you look at the state of California, majority Christian, it has elected two Jewish women to serve in the United States Senate. All of these are very positive signs in a country that has 2,000 religions, millions of American who have no spiritual belief.

BATTISTA: I've got to take another break. I'll get the audience in when we come back, and we'll also talk about Middle East peace policy. Obviously some Arab Americans are not celebrating this designation. So we'll talk about Joe Lieberman and the Middle East peace policy, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: In a letter to President Clinton in 1997, after a wave of anti-Israel bombing, Joseph Lieberman was the only Democrat to join five Republican colleagues in describing Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat as the -- quote -- "villain" of the peace process. But last year he joined President Clinton in leading a prayer breakfast at which Arafat was a featured guest.

Let me got Jeff quickly in the audience for a comment -- Jeff.

JEFF: I don't think that a person's religious denomination should hats in this political race. I don't think that the American people really want it to matter. I don't think that the Democratic ticket wants it to matter. And I think that it's media's responsibility to step back and let the American public's opinions drive this issue instead of trying to drive religion into this campaign.

BATTISTA: All right, Jeff, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: Let me go to this e-mail from Michael in Ohio, who says, "When Gore chose a Jew to be a heartbeat away for the presidency, I decided to vote for Bush. His first allegiance is to the Israeli government. And before I'm labeled anti-Semite, let it me known that I am a Jew."

So let me ask, I think maybe the one issue in particular that people might be concerned about, whether or not Joe Lieberman can handle it with an even-handedness, is the Middle East process.

Rabbi, what are your feelings about that?

POTASNIK: Well, firstly Brandeis on the Supreme Court addressed the whole issue of dual loyalty, and said, "One has many loyalties in life." It's not Israel as opposed to America. One can be loyal to America, anti-Israel simultaneously. Joe Lieberman has been taught, as many of us, that one has to not only pray for peace, but you have to pursue peace, and you pursue peace with those who have been your enemies. We are told that a person who is strong is one who can transform an enemy into a friend. So therefore, if you really care about peace, you're one who wants to see peace happen as soon as possible and you want peace for all sides. So I think Joe Lieberman, by using his religious tradition, is going to reach out to the other side as well.

BATTISTA: Barry, if he should become involved in negotiating process, though, is he representing Israel or is he representing America?

LYNN: Well, I think there's no evidence whatsoever that he's ever had anything but America's best interest. I mean, in my -- just look at his historical record, and I think that it is a dangerous idea to assert without any evidence that someone is going to support the interests of another country and not the United States. I realize your e-mailer is himself Jewish, but I think he needs more than that. He needs evidence if he's going make this kind of a rash statement. It's the same thing Jack Kennedy said, "I'm not going to get my advice from the pope, although I am a Roman Catholic." And I think Joe Lieberman in his history, in is record so far, has made it clear he is an American. You can disagree with the direction he goes on foreign policy, or his attacks on Hollywood or his support of school vouchers or anything else, but you shouldn't do it because you claim without evidence that his allegiance is to somewhere else. That is not a fair way to approach the issue.

BATTISTA: I didn't mean to ignore Jeff's comment earlier, and there is merit in that. We probably should discuss it. I mean, because we -- our staff had a big discussion about whether or not to do this subject today. Is it a valid subject? Should we be discussing this, Terry?

JEFFREY: Well, I think that Jeff is right. I think American people, voters are going to past religious denomination. I'm an Irish Catholic. I would never vote for Ted Kennedy, because I so fundamentally disagree with him on the issues. I don't care what someone's denomination is, what religion they belong to. I care where they stand in terms of the issues that are going to affect our future, what this country is going to be like for my children. I think the vast majority of Americans are going to view it that way. I think any society is imperfect, because human beings are imperfect. No doubt there are going to be anti-Semites and bigots out there who decide their votes for reasons that are bad, but I think it is a good thing for America that Al Gore picked Joseph Lieberman, because I think it ratifies a transformation that's already taken place in America, that we look to fundamental principles, not to elements bigotry, prejudice, and division and polarization.

BATTISTA: Matt in the audience.

MATT: Yes, the Constitution guarantees us the freedom of religion. Why would religion matter in politics, because we -- every politician has the right to practice whatever religion he believes in?

BATTISTA: That -- and that's not the argument, though, Barry. You know what I mean? I don't think anybody disagrees with that. It's whether or not they impose those religious beliefs on public policy.

LYNN: Absolutely. You have to measure your religious commitment and specific ideas about religion against constitutional and other legal standards. And I think that's why it is important to always remember that the primary purpose of -- the primary guide to making decisions can't be wholly Scripture alone. Of course, it's going, whatever your holy scripture is, if any, is going to help to guide you. But it doesn't tell you how to vote on changing the tax laws or the specifics of a proposed treaty about space defense. I mean, that's not what's contained in holy scripture. It is not a guidebook to operate the federal government. It is much more profound than that for the people who believe it.

BATTISTA: Terry...

JEFFREY: Here's...

BATTISTA: I was going to...

JEFFREY: Here's...

BATTISTA: Go ahead, Terry. JEFFREY: Yes. Here's where I disagree with Barry. I really believe that our system of government is based on the Judeo-Christian worldview and the Judeo-Christian understanding of man and Judeo- Christian morality. And I think it really does matter what someone's moral views are when they go into government.

If you believe, for example, that an unborn child is a human being, I believe you have an obligation as a member of Congress to protect that innocent person's life, and I think that's a legitimate area for debate. So is the death penalty. If you believe it's wrong to execute someone for committing certain heinous offenses, then you have an obligation to vote that way. If you feel the other way, you should vote the other way.

People's moral principles should guide their political principles and decisions they make in public policy.

LYNN: Well, sure, but the moral principles...

POTASNIK: Bobbie...

LYNN: ... can come from anybody...

POTASNIK: Bobbie, I just want to add to this.

LYNN: ... and out of any tradition.

BATTISTA: Rabbi, go ahead.

POTASNIK: Bobbie, I think tragically throughout history we have seen too much of the abuse of religion, and I think that's why, when people hear the word "religion," for some it means, "Is this going to create some kind of separation between those who are religious and those who are not? Those who are of one faith and those who are of different faith?"

I think what happens here is that we are able to see that in American we truly can have different faiths living together and working together.

So, that's why I see this Joe Lieberman discussion as healthy because I guarantee you the next time this happens, when there is another person of religious faith who's on the ticket it won't be discussed. This is a historic moment for America. It should be discussed now, but it won't be discussed again.

BATTISTA: We have to take yet another break, and when we come back, we'll talk about Joe Lieberman's voting record. Is he a liberal that conservatives can love? And also this programming note: Tune into CNN's "NEWSSTAND" at 10:00 p.m. Eastern tonight for more on this topic. We'll be right back after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me go up here to James in the audience. James, go ahead. JAMES: Yes. I think that the rabbi made a very important point that we all need to recognize. The fact that Lieberman is Jewish, because he's the first Jewish candidate, that's the issue. I don't think religion is really the issue.

I just like when President Kennedy ran, he was the first Catholic candidate. That was the issue: not because he was Catholic -- because he was the first Catholic.

If it was an African-American candidate, it would be the same situation. It would be the first African-American candidate for the vice presidency. And this will go away. And I think that it really doesn't matter what the religious candidate's background is. It's because he's the first of that religion.

BATTISTA: Let me bring Norman Ornstein into the conversation with us now. Norm is a CNN convention analyst with us and also a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

Norman, let me get your feelings on whether we need to be having this discussion.

NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Well, I think it's good to be having this discussion. It's going to be out there. People are going to be talking about it around the country, Jews and non-Jews alike.

This is a historic moment. There are going to be some people concerned because they may not know either a lot about Judaism or a lot about modern Orthodox Judaism, and they want to know whether there's any kind of a linkage to public policy decisions.

So it's fine to have the discussion, because it's going to be there whether we do it in the open or not.

BATTISTA: Let me -- let's talk about some of those potential public policy decisions. Middle East peace we've talked about just a few moments ago, and whether or not there -- that Joe Lieberman could handle that with equity. What do you think?

ORNSTEIN: Well, certainly he's been a strong supporter of Israel, as have most of his colleagues, whatever their religion may be. He's been very tough, which fits his general orientation, which is toward a muscular foreign policy and strong defense, and drawing a line between democratic allies and tyrants in different places.

What we see with Lieberman in the Middle East, though, is that while he's been tough on Yasser Arafat in the past and strongly for Israel, he's been supportive of the peace process, supportive of Camp David, probably no different than virtually any of the other potential candidates whom Al Gore considered.

BATTISTA: On some of the other issues, it's sort of interesting to me the Republicans will say that Joe Lieberman is more like them and then others will say that he's far more liberal than he appears. Where exactly does he stand? ORNSTEIN: You know, there's some truth to both of those, Bobbie. If you look at the overall voting records -- and let's remember that your actions as a senator are not just the votes you take on the floor. They're the issues you pick up and the positions you take that may not even get to a vote.

On most of the issues, Lieberman is going to be somewhat to the right of his Democratic colleagues, but probably still a little bit to the left of center. If you had a scale from one to 10, where one was very liberal and 10 was very conservative, Lieberman would be about a four.

He's for a woman's right to choose. He's for strict gun control measures. He's certainly been with Democrats on most of the questions of a strong role for the federal government in social policy, domestic affairs. He's for labor unions.

He's been different in a few places. He is different in some of these areas involving religion in public life. He's certainly not with the Republicans. But he, for example, has supported a moment of silence in public schools even though he's been against a constitutional amendment to require prayer in the schools or even to permit that.

He's been different when it comes to some areas involving business. He's been for tort and product liability reform. Most of his Democratic allies against it. He's been for capital gains cuts. he's more sensitive to business issues. And of course, he's best known for an area where he hasn't really had any votes, and that is his strong push, along with Bill Bennett, to try and restore some morality to the popular culture by going after violence in videogames, violence and sex on television and in the movie industry, calling for a strong code of conduct for the broadcasting industry.

BATTISTA: Terry, despite the fact that his voting record is mostly or at least leans liberal, does the conservative right see Joe Lieberman as an ally.

JEFFREY: Well, first of all, I think there's no doubt that Joseph Lieberman is a liberal. I think his American Conservative Union rating last year was zero, I believe it's 19 percent lifetime.

Ironically, though, on some of the issues here he's deviated from the liberal Democratic Party line, those are exactly the same issues that the Bush campaign was trying to strike last week. At one point, he came out in favor of partial privatization of Social Security, which is exactly what George W. Bush has suggested.

He's come out for experimental programs in school choice and vouchers, even for religious schools, which is something that George W. Bush has suggested. He's come out in favor of missile defense, that's another area that George W. Bush is in favor of. Where Lieberman differs from the Democratic Party line and the Clinton-Gore administration, they happen to be key issues for Bush.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Dave here in the audience quickly. DAVE: You know, one of the panelists mentioned about Jesus Day in Texas, how George W. Bush passed that a few months ago, and I've hardly heard about that at all in the media and I've seen it on the Worldwide Web and that kind of thing.

Why isn't anyone concerned about George W. Bush's ability to make proper or good decisions, you know, based on his somewhat intolerance of other religions, as was illustrated by the statement that he made? He said that Jesus was a teacher and someone considered important in all religions all around the world, and Jesus isn't the central figure in Judaism, and that was certainly more than brushed over, if not ignored in his statement. And shouldn't we be concerned about how he will vote?

LYNN: You know, I personally, Bobbie, think that, that is important and I think that, that statement was both historically incorrect. Of course, Hinduism, Buddhism predate Jesus, so they don't have a position on him at all. And I think it did demonstrate some real insensitivity, and the American Jewish community and the community in Texas also expressed opposition to that.

The other concern and the issue that I think bothers a lot of the people that are making these statements and e-mailing you is that one party -- Republican Party does seem still to be locked into blind support of the so-called "religious right." These are people who are, in fact, intolerant. Pat Robertson, you know, has made comments I consider anti-Semitic, he's also said that Hindus are devil worshipers. Jerry Falwell said the Antichrist is among us and he is a Jew. Those are the kind of comments that bother people and we -- many of us would like all politicians and all parties to repudiate that kind of nonsense.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DAVID: Hi. My name is David, I'm calling from Massachusetts. I feel that it's unfair that Senator Lieberman is being judged more on his religion than on his politics.

BATTISTA: That's only for today, David. I am sure that we will be moving on.

But let me go to Lisa quickly in the audience.

LISA: I think what I would like to see is that when we start focusing upon narrow aspects of a candidate such as their religion, we tend to sort of develop tunnel vision, what this is really all about is we'd love to throw this buzzword around of diversity. We like to say we are a diverse society. Senator Lieberman's faith makes him something different than the mainstream and we tunnel vision on that. If we look at his nomination to be the Democratic candidate for vice president as a very small step in the direction of recognizing diversity, I think many of these issues will tend to fall aside. BATTISTA: Josephine in Arizona says: "This is what America needs. I hope a black person will be on a major ticket in my lifetime. This is a fantastic beginning. Democrats always walk the walk."

And Brandon in Texas says: "This was an act of desperation by the Democrats. They did the same thing with Geraldine Ferraro. Don't they remember how that turned out?"

Norm, what is the risk with taking on a first?

ORNSTEIN: Well, there is always a risk here, and we know that polls aren't going to tell us whether there's a significant underlying degree of anti-Semitism. But I think clearly the pluses outweigh the risks here. Showing that you are bold as a leader is something that works very well for a vice president who has to not only step out from under the shadow of a president, but show that he's capable of being No. 1, not just No. 2.

And in this case, if you look back at the record in Connecticut, Joe Lieberman has gotten significant support from evangelical Protestants, from devout Catholics because he's religious, because he walks the walk and talks the talk. And that, I think, will work to balance, along with the enthusiasm that this is generating in the Democratic Party faithful, any possible anti-Semitic reaction.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let me ask Rabbi Potasnik something, though. Let me ask you this, if Bush and Cheney should win the election, how do you know for sure that religion didn't play a part?

POTASNIK: Well, I don't think you'll ever fully know because I don't think in polls people always reveal their innermost feelings. But I do think we have to live with our ideals, we have to stand up for that which we feel is our conviction. So to say we are going to lose some of the anti-Semitic vote, I don't think we're looking to build this country with the anti-Semitic vote. I think we stand for principles.

Joe Lieberman, I think, has been able to show many people that you can be part of two words: the religious and the secular, and he shows how you can live them simultaneously, he synthesizes. What a great example for young people to say, you don't have to sacrifice your religion for the sake of your country, you can be both.

BATTISTA: I have to take another break, and as we do we take a quick look at the results of our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote. The question was: Will Joe Lieberman's religion help, hurt, or have no affect on Gore? And our results are showing about 57 percent will help him, 17 percent hurt, 26 percent no affect.

We'll be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BATTISTA: Terry, I'm sorry, I meant to come back to you, because I know you wanted to answer Barry Lynn there on a couple of points, and I only have 35, 40 seconds -- go ahead.

JEFFREY: That's, OK, Bobbie. Despite all the wonderful things that Senator Lieberman has said about the role of fate and morality in American society, there's one major roadblock that's going to stop social conservatives from crossing over and voting for him or Al Gore. Five times the Senate has voted to keep partial-birth abortion legal. Al Gore has a litmus test on that, issue. That's one of the reasons Lieberman was picked, and social conservatives will never support a candidate who's for that.

BATTISTA: That will have to be the last word for today. Terry Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us. Barry Lynn, Rabbi Potasnik, appreciate you being here as well. And, Norm Ornstein, thank you.

We will see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE. By the way, Senator Lieberman is Larry King's guest tonight on LARRY KING LIVE, at 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific.

We'll see you tomorrow. We're moving on from this subject. We'll see you tomorrow.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com