TalkBack Live

Does Cyber Violence Breed Violent Children?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, GUEST HOST: Decapitations, dismemberment, mutilations...

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you knock her out two-times, then you get to kill her.

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KAGAN: ... It's what some kids do every day, and for many it's the joy of video games.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's fun because you get to attack the other person, a lot of blood in it.

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KAGAN: But does all that blood and gore corrupt the players? Does cyber violence breed violent children?

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ELLIOTT PORTNOY, ATTORNEY FOR VIDEO GAME INDUSTRY: There's no evidence that links the playing of violent video games with any act of violence.

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KAGAN: But some city officials in Indianapolis don't agree. An ordinance in place banning children under age 18 from playing violent games in arcades.

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MAYOR BART PETERSON, INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA: Just like pornography, you are allowed to place reasonable restrictions upon it in order to limit children's access.

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KAGAN: Is it the government's job to limit the games your child plays in the video arcade? Would you want an ordinance like this in your town?

Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE, I'm Daryn Kagan. I'll be filling in today for Bobbie Battista.

How many kills does your child rack up in a single video game? Do the graphic animations horrify or fascinate you? And what, if any, message do violent games -- what kind of message does that send to the kids who play them?

Let's start by focusing on what's happening in Indianapolis. Meet Elliott Portnoy. He's an attorney representing the American Amusement Machine Association and the Amusement and Music Operators Association.

We also have on the phone the mayor of Indianapolis, Bart Peterson.

Mr. Mayor and Mr. Portnoy, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it.

PETERSON: Thank you.

PORTNOY: Glad to be here.

KAGAN: Mr. Mayor, we'll start with you. Why don't you explain to us how this new law is going to work in your town and why do you need it?

PETERSON: Well, I believe that our young people today from literally the day they're born are subject to a culture of violence, whether it be television programs in prime time or movies or song lyrics or violent video games. And I think it's time for communities to stand up and say, we don't like the message that are going to our children. We don't like the impact that it's having on them.

And so in Indianapolis we created this ordinance. There's not much a city can do with this except for arcade video games. And so we created an ordinance that says that if you're under the age of 18, you're not allowed to play the most violent and the most sexually explicit video games unless you're accompanied by a parent or guardian.

KAGAN: And who's going to decide which games are appropriate and which games are not appropriate?

PETERSON: Well, we spell it out in graphic detail in our ordinance. And it deals -- you know, games that involve decapitation and other grotesque acts of violence and sexual explicitness. It's described in detail, and games that have those kinds of things are restricted to children under the age of 18.

KAGAN: And how do you actually do that restriction physically? I was reading you have curtains and they have to be, the games have to be in a different section.

PETERSON: Right, has to be a separation so that not only do you have the ability to make sure that nobody under the age of 18 is playing unless they are accompanied by a parent or a guardian, but also children who are not playing will not be able to watch the games. So there has to be a curtain or a separate room or something else to separate the games, the most violent games and sexually explicit games, from all the rest of them.

KAGAN: Mayor, do you have kids yourself?

PETERSON: I have an 11-year-old daughter, yes.

KAGAN: Now you know what happens when you say to a kid you can't do this, and, in fact, we're going to push it aside and we're going to put it behind a curtain and you can't see it.

PETERSON: Well, exactly. And frankly, the mechanism we've designed will keep children away from these games. But the system that the industry itself has put forward, I think with good intent, but what they've done is they've created a rating system without an enforcement mechanism. And so if you have a rating system that says this game is violent and sexually explicit, kids are going to be drawn to that game.

It's just like an R-rated movie. If you did not have any enforcement mechanism, kids would want to see the R-rated movies. But because we didn't allow them to unless they are accompanied by a parent or guardian, they're unable to do so.

So if you have a rating system and you have warnings but you don't have anyway of enforcing it like we do in our ordinance then it simply won't work. It will have the opposite effect.

KAGAN: Now what is that way of enforcing it. Are you going to have police officers in the video arcades of Indianapolis?

PETERSON: Absolutely. This is the same as -- you know, we protect our children from pornography, we protect them from buying tobacco products unless they're 18 and from buying alcohol unless they're 21. We enforce all of those laws. And, you know, frankly, the vast majority of people in this country are law-abiding citizens. And when you make something unlawful, they're going to abide by the law.

KAGAN: All right, we'll have you stand by. Let's bring in Elliott Portnoy representing the other side of this issue. What's wrong with a law like that? Maybe kids shouldn't be playing with games like this.

PORTNOY: Well, you know, the industry shares many of the views that Mayor Peterson and the City Council just expressed. But this ordinance is not the way to accomplish the objective.

First of all, it's unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment.

Second, it is unnecessary, the industry has a very effective rating system that's been in place for over six years to provide parents with information they need to help their children make decisions about the games their kids play.

But most importantly, Daryn, this ordinance is not going to do a thing to reduce the likelihood of youth violence in Indianapolis or anywhere else. It's ineffective. And if the mayor and the City Council are serious about youth violence, there's a great deal they can do, and the industry stands ready to work with them.

KAGAN: You think they're just picking on your client?

PORTNOY: Well, I think they've singled out the video game industry as the sole cause of violence in Indianapolis without being a shred of evidence that links violent video games to any act of violence. There's no causal link that's been conclusively demonstrated. There's no evidence. And to single out the video game industry is really, it seems, an absurd reaction.

KAGAN: Mayor, let's have you comment on that.

PETERSON: Well, first...

KAGAN: The content of these video games is one thing, but these kids see so much. They see television, they see music, they see magazines. What's one little thing like a video arcade going to do to prevent these kids from seeing violent images?

PETERSON: Well first of all, we're not singling out this industry as the sole cause of violence among young people. Of course, we're doing lots of other things to combat violence among our young people. This is just one thing. And I will be the first to admit that these images also come in the form of song lyrics and television and movies, things that cities are not in a position to regulation.

But I will say that we can -- there are some special things about video games that are unique. One is that not only do they desensitize our children to violence, but they also teach some of the techniques of violence.

One of the most harrowing stories that I've heard through all of this is that in Kentucky, the school shooter in Kentucky, Paducah, Kentucky, had never fired a real gun in his life before he prepared to go into that school and shoot his classmates. And yet he shot with remarkable accuracy, world-class accuracy. And his only training had been on violent video games. So there are things about violent video games that are really unique.

But secondly, I think it's important to emphasize that in addition to what we can keep our kids away from with this ordinance, we're raising attention to an issue that I think is vitally important. Most parents have no idea about the images their children are seeing and hearing because they don't share in these things. They don't listen to the same music and they don't play these video games. And part of what we're accomplishing here is to call attention to parents to what their kids are seeing and playing on a daily basis.

KAGAN: Well, and that does bring up the topic of parental responsibility. I want to show you this e-mail that just came in from Michelle in Ohio. She writes, "These types of gruesome games may feed that fascination with violence, but the problem is that kids are growing up without learning what it means to be morally grounded." Again, that goes back on the parent.

What happens to parental responsibility? Is it really the role of government to decide what my kid or what your kid is allowed to play with in an arcade?

PETERSON: No, and that's why if parents choose to have their children play these games, they're enabled to do that -- they are able to do that, I mean. So just like you can allow your child to watch an R-rated movie by accompanying them to the movie, you can allow your child to play one of these gruesome or sexually explicit video games by accompanying them.

The key is to empower parents to be able to make these decisions, not for the government to make the decisions for them.

KAGAN: We have a question -- go ahead quickly.

PORTNOY: Daryn, there's a reason why this is the first time an ordinance like this has been passed by a city. This isn't a new idea. Dozens of cities, dozens of state governments have looked at this, and in every single instance they've concluded that the Constitution doesn't permit them to do what Indianapolis has done.

You don't like to have these games, you don't have to allow your children to play them, but the government may not decide what games are appropriate for playing by children in the realm of violence.

KAGAN: Mayor Peterson, it's the first city to do it but do you think it's going to be the last?

PETERSON: Well, I certainly hope not. And as to the question of constitutionality, I would point out that first of all we work with a constitutional law professor on this issue.

Second of all, no court in America has ever said that video game content is protected speech under the First Amendment. It may be or it may not be, but we will find out when a court decides this.

More importantly, you are allowed to regulate in a reasonable way protected speech. We regulate pornography. We allow it to be available to adults, but we restrict children's access to it. We allow children to -- and those are the kinds of -- those have been determined to be protected speech -- pornography has been -- as having either political content or artistic content. And if they decide that video games fall under that same category, we believe we have regulated them in a reasonable way, just like pornography.

KAGAN: Mr. Mayor, we realize your time is limited today. We do appreciate your time on the phone. That's Mayor Bart Peterson of Indianapolis. Thanks for joining us.

PETERSON: Thank you very much, Daryn. KAGAN: Time now for a quick break. We invite you to take part first, though, in our TALKBACK LIVE "Viewer Vote." Just go to cnn.com/talkback. There is today's question: Does your town need a law like this, like the one in Indianapolis restricting how minors can play with violent video games? Log on. Vote. Stay with us. And we will be back right after this.

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KAGAN: Illinois Attorney General Jim Ryan announced a campaign last spring to stop the sale of violent video games to minors. His office conducted an investigation in which children ages 13 to 15 made 32 attempts to purchase M-rated games. On all 32 attempts, the minors bought the game without being asked their ages.

And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about violent video games and a new move in Indianapolis to keep minors from playing with some of those games in arcades. Lucky for us, we have a bunch of kids and teenagers in audience today. So we can go right to the experts. And we have two expert video-game players, Nathan and Joey, from right here in Georgia.

First of all, tell us which games you play and why you like them.

NATHAN: I play "Unreal Tournament." Just -- it's capture the flag. It's different every time. It's not the same thing. "Half- Life," it's got a storyline to it. "Rogue Spirit" (ph) and "Rainbow Six," you try to stop terrorists. I mean, that's good. "Perfect Dark." It's kind of far-fetched, but it's still got a story line -- "Goldeneye," straight from the movie.

KAGAN: OK, Joey, you think these games are fun. But in an unbiased way, tell us some of the gross things that happen when you play with them.

JOEY: All right. I'm actually not a big fan. I usually play most of the more Nintendo games.

KAGAN: Because your parents are watching, right, Joey?

JOEY: No, I just -- well, I don't have a fast enough computer to play most of the newer games. But in my games, I actually always play on paint- ball mode. You can ask Nathan. So, there actually is no blood in the ones I play. But, it's more of -- there's a lot of strategic things to it. I mean, you are killing people, yes. But it's -- there's things in there that you have to constantly think. And it's not same the thing -- like, if I go play a racing game, I am going to be racing the same track every time I race.

When I'm playing, this guy is not going to be here in the same place, you know. I'm thinking against someone else.

KAGAN: Do you think, you guys, when you play this game, that it makes you more violent?

NATHAN: No. I mean, I would be the last person in the world to ever pick up a gun and shoot somebody.

KAGAN: So you can differentiate between what's a game and what's real.

NATHAN: I mean, even watching a movie, I mean, that's not real. I mean, if that was real, then they wouldn't be having it on TV. I mean, it's just stupid.

KAGAN: What about you, Joey, with your friends -- do you ever see your friends get out of control or get more violent from playing the games?

JOEY: Not at all. I have a few friends that do have some violent issues, but they have gotten it from a lot of other things. I have a lot of great friends that play, and you know, they're fine. I mean, I think that I would have to say that video games would probably be my last influence -- like, I started playing paint ball -- which, I think that would be a more serious issue than playing arcade games.

KAGAN: Interesting, there's a lot of stuff out there that influence kids. Good point.

We continue our conversation. We had the mayor of Indianapolis on with us, Mayor Bart Peterson. He had to go. So, joining us in his place is his press secretary, Steve Campbell. He is communications director for the city of Indianapolis.

Steve, thank you for joining us.

STEVE CAMPBELL, MAYOR'S PRESS SECRETARY, INDIANAPOLIS: Thank you for having me.

KAGAN: Appreciate it. We want to include in our conversations other members of our audience, and we have Bobby from Florida, a former law enforcement officer. And the mayor was making the point that he would have police officers in arcades to try to enforce this new law.

BOBBY: Well, you can put them in there and try to enforce it. But like I say, unless you've got a 24-hour over-watch, there's too many other things being done that takes a police officer's time to have to contribute his whole shift trying to police something that's going to be impossible to enforce. The only way that I see that you could possibly enforce it would you if you had a complete ban on such video games. And, as the young man just expressed a while ago, I don't think that, by the time that a child is old enough to understand those things, he is going to necessarily be violent.

I think this is an inherited thing. And other things will agitate, because I remember when I was a young kid, there were kids getting into a lot of mischief then, and video wasn't even thought about.

KAGAN: Thank you.

Steve, let's get to the practical matter of enforcing this. Have you heard from the public? Has the mayor's office heard from the public, and that this is the kind of thing that the people of Indianapolis want their police to be spending time on, in video arcades?

CAMPBELL: Well, Mayor Peterson is not talking about pulling police off the streets and other important duties throughout the city of Indianapolis. And I think, as the mayor pointed out a little earlier, that most businesses are law-abiding citizens. And just because a law is there, they are going to follow it. Take for instance selling alcohol or tobacco to minors. Most stores don't -- just don't it. Do we send police officers into every gas station, every grocery store, and every liquor store in the state? No. It's impossible.

But the fact that the law is there means that most businesses, they don't want any hassle from the city. They don't want any hassle from police. The fact that the law is there, most of them are going to follow it. For those who don't follow it, we have to rely on some other means, as we do with tobacco or alcohol, which could be tips, occasional patrols, complaints, a lot of other different methods that are accepted practices when we are talking about alcohol and tobacco. So there's a great analogy to be drawn right there.

KAGAN: Elliot Portnoy, let's bring you back into this conversation, as you represent the business-owners who will be affected by this. Do they plan to comply September 1st, whether they like it or not?

PORTNOY: Well, certainly all of the business owners in Indianapolis will comply with the law if it is still in effect on September 1. The industry will be considering whether a lawsuit would -- should be challenged -- should be filed challenging the constitutionality of this ordinance. I believe it should be filed and I have no doubt that it would be successful. Other organizations may similarly file a suit.

But you know, Daryn, there's so much that the mayor and the city counsel could do to address youth violence, and yet this was the first ordinance this new mayor introduced. And if he's serious about youth violence, let's work together on things like making it more difficult for children to gain access to guns, putting more mental health counselors in schools and school nurses in school to identify troubled teens, work to strengthen families, put metal detectors in schools. Those are the sorts of things that address youth violence, not banning violent video games in direct violation of the First Amendment.

KAGAN: Steve Campbell, you want to respond to that, why not go bigger than just video games?

CAMPBELL: Well, we are doing that. The mayor's -- actually the number-one priority when he ran for mayor, and now that he is in office is putting 200 more police officers on the street so we can have community policing, more police officers involved in neighborhoods and involved in schools. So that's the number-one priority. And there are lots of other things that we are doing, we are doing things to reduce drugs, to get involved in schools, and reduce school violence. Just because this was the first proposed ordinance doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of important things going on in Indianapolis right now.

But as far as the ordinance is concerned, and I think the mayor pointed it out earlier, that this is one thing the city can do to address the culture of violence. We can't go into every home and say, don't watch that on television. We can't say, you can't go see that movie.

But the one thing that the city of Indianapolis could do within its power and within its reasonable power is to restrict access to violent video games. So this proposed ordinance is by no means the first or the only thing that the city of Indianapolis or lots of other cities across the country are doing.

KAGAN: Just a place to start. We'll continue our conversation when TALKBACK LIVE comes back after this.

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KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

We continue our conversation on violent video games and what they are doing in Indianapolis. Two different sides of the issue coming in by e-mail, first from Ryan in Kentucky saying: "I think this law should be adopted in all U.S. cities." And then from Patrick in Massachusetts saying: "Parents should be monitoring what their children watch or play. Parents, do your job and no one will have to legislate your responsibilities."

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KAGAN: Some strong response from our audience members there. And we have some comments too, Yvonne (ph) visiting from Jamaica.

YVONNE: I would just like to say that I understand why a law like this could be passed. We are living in a very difficult time, where not only in the United States but children all over have become violent and we don't understand it. We don't understand why children are killing each other, why they are disrespectable to adults and hurting adults. And so it's not enough to say that by playing an innocent video game children are not going to become violent. We are immuning them to violence, we're saying, you know, get on with it, it's OK, it's just a game.

And so I can understand that legislators want to do something from any angle. The reality is that parenting isn't what it ought to be, that's a reality. I'm sorry, parents, if you feel bad about it, but the job has got to be done. You can't allow a society to go to a level of -- where it's not civilized anymore. So if the lawmakers have to step in to make a difference and it means that later on down the line it saves lives, by all means do it.

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KAGAN: And we also have Allen (ph) from Mississippi here in the audience with us. Allen, your view?

ALLEN: I would like to ask Mr. Portnoy, where does the First Amendment protect deviant behavior?

PORTNOY: I'd be happy to answer the question. The First Amendment isn't about behavior, it says that Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech. And the First Amendment does not permit government no matter how much it may dislike these games, find them disgusting or offensive to draw distinctions about what material is worthy and what material is unworthy. And this is, unfortunately, I guess from your perspective, a problem for you, but the First Amendment does not permit Indianapolis or any other community to ban violent video games.

KAGAN: But it's not just banning it, it's talking about kids. Does the First Amendment apply the same to minors as it does to adults?

PORTNOY: There certainly are different provisions and different holdings in cases relating to when you can restrict access by parents versus access by children, but in this context the only instances where Indianapolis or another community can restrict access to material, whether it's movies or video games, is if the material is obscene or harmful to minors and this material is not obscene and there's been no showing, no evidence, no link suggesting that this material is harmful to minors.

KAGAN: Here's Charles from Florida.

CHARLES: Well, it seems to me that the attorney is hiding in the gray area because this statute that has been passed does not regulate the content, it just regulates the place and time, and so that doesn't violate the First Amendment at all. I don't know what he wants to say about that.

PORTNOY: There's a dramatic difference between a content-neutral statute like that which you just described and a content-based standard. This statute specifically says what games access can be limited to and it spells out the themes and the content in the statute. Therefore, it is content-based, and content-based regulation is presumptively invalid. That's the law. The mayor, the city council are wrong on this. There are decades of jurisprudence that back this up.

KAGAN: Want to check in and see what folks are saying in our chat room, and Luana (ph) is monitoring that for us. Luana, play reporter for us.

LUANA: "Parents should monitor what their kids do, not the government. Also, government has no right to take over a parent's job and tell their kids what to do. Parents need to see what their kids do, not the government."

KAGAN: Steve Campbell -- yes, go ahead.

PORTNOY: I just wanted to say that the industry isn't hiding behind the First Amendment. In fact, we had hoped to work with the city in developing a campaign to educate the public about our rating system. It's a six-year-old system that's based on a traffic light that gives parents and children a quick, very user-friendly way to ascertain the content of coin-operated video games. We wanted to work with the city, educate the public about our system and help the parents. We didn't want to be in an adversarial position that we are right now.

KAGAN: Steve Campbell, I want to give you the last world here, speaking up for the mayor's office.

CAMPBELL: Sure. One thing about the rating system, and I think this may have been pointed out earlier, is that there's no enforcement mechanism. It's like having rated R-movies, rated X-movies, rated NC- 17 movies out there, with no one telling children that they can't go, and that's essentially what the industry's rating system is. And like Mayor Peterson pointed out, it's with good intent, but there's no enforcement mechanism, so it has the opposite effect of a child seeing a sticker, a red sticker game, which is for mature audiences or adults only, and being drawn to that game, and that's the exact opposite effect.

KAGAN: I'm hearing the music. I have to have Steve Campbell have the last word there. I want to say thanks to Steve Campbell and Elliott Portnoy. Thanks for both of you for joining us. Can video games teach your kids to shoot? We'll meet a man who's convinced there's relationship between the entertainment industry and school shootings.

We'll be back, right after this.

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KAGAN: All right, welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Daryn Kagan.

Joining us this half hour is Kenneth Falk, he is the legal director of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union; and Jack Thompson, he's a civil litigator. He's representing the families of victims of the Paducah, Kentucky, school shooting. He has filed a suit against entertainment companies that manufacture or distribute products that he says contributed to the mental state of the shooter in that case.

Gentlemen, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

KENNETH FALK, INDIANA CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: Good afternoon

JACK THOMPSON, CIVIL LITIGATOR: Thank you.

KAGAN: Mr. Falk, let's start with you. We've had a lot of questions in our audience today, and also on the air and e-mail, people worrying about if this is what they're trying to do in Indianapolis, if it's constitutional in First Amendment issues. How does your group see it?

FALK: Well, obviously, we're quite concerned about the First Amendment problems here. What the city is doing, is its prohibiting access to activity which I think is protected by the First Amendment, and even though we're talking about children here, they do have First Amendment rights, and the courts have been quite clear that those rights can be precluded in cases of obscenity, but not in cases of violent video games. And I think that what the city is doing is taking a very broad step into restricting First Amendment-protected activities.

KAGAN: So it would be OK if it's a game that shows people being blown up or being shot, but you couldn't see a game that showed woman being raped?

FALK: You could not show something that fits within the legal definition of obscene. The problem is...

KAGAN: So sex is bad, but murder is OK.

FALK: Excuse me?

KAGAN: Sex is bad, but murder is OK?

FALK: Well, fortunately or unfortunately, the way that the law has broken down is when the court discusses things that can be prohibitive in the area of speech, obscene speech is prohibited. The problem with dealing with violence is when you're dealing with violence as part of a storyline, or as part of literature or as part of many things, you're dealing with something which is inherent in protective speech.

KAGAN: Jack Thompson, explain to me the lawsuit that you're involved in, and where you think the fault lies and how it does lead to video games?

THOMPSON: Yes, let me just very briefly point out that what's directly analogous to this ordinance in Indianapolis is the movie ratings system in Florida. It's a crime to sell a ticket to an R- rated movie to a child to go in and see sex and/or violence. It's completely analogous. It's completely constitutional, and the mayor is right on the money.

As to what happened in Indiana, or in Paducah, Kentucky, here was a boy, Michael Carneal, 14 years of age, walked into West Paducah High School and opened fire from a distance of 25 feet. He had never fired a handgun before. He fired eight rounds, eight rounds, one at each separate target, which is a highly counterintuitive technique. You learn it playing video games, where you're rewarded for one shot at one target. He hit eight different heads -- five different heads, three upper torso shots. All eight bullets hit, which is marksmanship that is off the scale.

In the Amadou Diallo shooting case in New York City, here were police officers trained to shoot, who from a shorter distance away, fired 41 times and only hit in 19 instances, all over Mr. Diallo's body.

So if you leave aside whether or not violence encourages kids to act violently, if they see it in entertainment, let's look at what these games instill, and that is incredible marksmanship, rapid-fire technique that they wouldn't otherwise have, and that's why the U.S. military uses these very same games in slightly modified forms to train their soldiers to kill and to kill efficiently. So because of the video game industry, we have a bunch of mini "Manchurian Candidates" walking around more able to kill with efficiency than they would otherwise be.

Conyers, Georgia, Jonesboro, Arkansas. Littleton, Colorado, Paducah, Kentucy, and Bethel, Alaska, all of these school shootings were ones in which the perpetrators were video gamers. So the issue is not just does violent entertainment encourage violence? But do video games instill skills which make them mass murderers that they would not otherwise be?

KAGAN: Ken Falk, what about that? What if, just for the sake of conversation, what we're talking about here is not just the content of what's on the screen, not just the message, but what if these game are actually instruments to teach kid how to become killers, if it's something just more than the content.

FALK: But they're not. We're talking about ideas here, we're talking about activity by the First Amendment. This is like banning books because they might incite certain behavior. The problem is not obviously with the video game; the problem is that these children have obtained guns and were able to use them in a violent way. You can't ban ideas because of actions taken by some persons. That's simply isn't...

KAGAN: I want to let Ashley from Georgia -- we have a lot of kids with this, and I think it's important to hear from them.

THOMPSON: I'd like to respond to that after the girl from Georgia.

KAGAN: OK, here's Ashley.

ASHLEY: Well, I play video games about once a week or so. And most of the video games you guys are saying have murder and violence. Not every single video game has that. I play the video games for the plot. Some of the plots are actually pretty good, and you can actually get pretty carried away inside of it, and they're fun.

THOMPSON: We didn't say that. What's going on in Indianapolis is a banning of playing of games by minors that have explicit sex or explicit violence in them. Well, let's get this out of the area of opinion. Let's look at what Harvard University found in a study that was released in June of 1998 conducted by Dr. Yurgelun-Todd. They had two groups of people: one group in adolescence, the other adults. They showed both groups violent images.

They found through magnetic resonance imaging, that is contrast media showing where the blood flow was and showed where these images were processed, that in the adults the images were processed in the forebrain, or the thinking part of the brain, in the adolescents they were processed in the medulla, or the seed of emotions of -- in the brain. And therefore, the study concluded at Harvard that children's brains are structurally functionally different from adult brains in that they process violent images in the seed of emotions, and if you trigger the emotions you trigger those behaviors.

Therefore, what the law in Indianapolis has intuited is in fact scientifically proven, and that is that kids respond to violent images in an acting-out way and that is why these murderers in six different school shootings that we know of were video-gamers who not only had their appetite fed to kill but they acted out the behaviors that they learned and were taught were glamorous and enjoyable playing arcade video games.

KAGAN: Well, one thing we have triggered today, we have triggered opinions from lots of teenagers who are out there watching us. We have been getting a lot of e-mail from teenagers, here is one, Matthew in Indiana who writes: "I turned out OK despite being raised playing violent video games. The lawmakers should start arresting and punishing people who commit crimes, not who are playing games." That is from Matthew in Indiana. And with...

THOMPSON: Yes, but you know what? There are a lot of kids out there who are not OK, and one of them is Michael Carneal, and there are three girls who are dead and -- but in heaven, because Michael Carneal had buttons that were pushed by the video game industry and therefore he was given an appetite that was enhanced and a skill that he wouldn't have otherwise had having never shot a gun before.

KAGAN: And on that note...

THOMPSON: And when it comes -- yes, go ahead.

KAGAN: Go ahead.

We just have to take a break. We'll be back. We'll give you another chance after this. We'll be back.

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KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Our e-mail continues to pour in, both from teenagers and parents, this one from a 17-year-old, Clayton in Arizona. He writes: "I'm 17 now. I've known right from wrong since I was 10. Video games are simply entertainment. We're not stupid. Stop insulting us."

But a parent on the other side. We have a lot of teenagers in the audience, too, who like what Clayton had to say.

Parents say, though, Kim in Georgia writes: "Parents need all the help they can get, and ordinances like this just help kids stay out of trouble. This helps keep our kids from responding to peer pressure when parents aren't around." And Kim in Georgia applauds the mayor of Indianapolis. FALK: Daryn...

KAGAN: I want to let -- we have another parent in the audience here. I want to let our parent, Patty from Georgia get a comment in too.

PATTY: I am a parent of three. I have a 15-year-old, 11, and a 10-year-old, and I also applaud the mayor and I would love to see that help here. I mean, there is so much that we have to fight as parents with the progressive aggressiveness, violence, sex on television, in the movies, radio, everywhere. So I am all for it. Help us.

KAGAN: Ken Falk, can you hear what these parents are saying? They're saying First Amendment very important, Constitution, basis of our country. But it's tough to be a parent out there and keep your kids from all of these violent images. They need some help, they're saying.

FALK: Well, yes, and I certainly understand. I am a parent as well. But the problem is what we are dealing with here is the First Amendment and it is not up to the government to regulate and prohibit things that are allowed under the First Amendment.

That is my job as a parent, but that is not the government's job and when the government starts assuming that job with regard to video games there is nothing to stop it with regard to books, with regard to movies and with regard to all expression. And it's a problem that we as parents have to face as parents. And simply put, the First Amendment stands as a very bright line between what the mayor wants to do and what he can do.

KAGAN: Arcade games today...

THOMPSON: Daryn...

KAGAN: We're going to have to take a break here. I'll let you get in after the break.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

KAGAN: But we are going to be talking arcade games, where do you go after that? Where do you stop? Our conversation continues after this.

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KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Our time is short.

Jack Thompson, I told you I'd give you a couple seconds here. We are short on time, so let's have it.

THOMPSON: Stephen Spielberg is arguably the most powerful man in Hollywood. He is part-owner of a series of high-end video arcades called GameWorks. In those arcades, one of which is in Indianapolis, two of them are in Miami, and in fact one of them is in Littleton, Colorado, of all places, kids are allowed to play games like Time Crisis 2, in which Mr. Spielberg...

KAGAN: You know what, Jack?

THOMPSON: ... gets money from the playing of those games...

KAGAN: I just have to interrupt you because we're going to have to do the Spielberg issue on a day when we've invited Mr. Spielburg on and he can talk about that.

THOMPSON: I'm sure he'd love to talk with you.

KAGAN: That would be good. And we'll have you back. Right now we want to look at our poll issues, and our poll question today was, does your town need a law like this, like the one in Indianapolis? Looks like our viewers at home and those online say no, they don't. Sixty-seven percent say that they don't and 33 percent say that they do.

And because we have a lot of kids in the audience, as we go I want to give one of the kids a chance to kind of close out our show, and we're going to go to Lisa from Georgia.

Lisa, you had a comment?

LISA: Yes, I was thinking that parents sometimes get a lot of heat for what kids do themselves. And I think we have to, you know, think about our own decisions sometimes. And I know you were, like, really scientific about everything. Everything does not have to be scientific. Some stuff is my own fault if I do something wrong and I know that.

KAGAN: And that's it, that word from our kids. We had great kids in the audience today. They made the show. I want to thank them, all of our guests and all of you at home and online.

I'm Daryn Kagan, and we will see you tomorrow on TALKLBACK LIVE.

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