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Giuliani Aides Reassuring Supporters That Mayor Still Is Planning to Run; Gore Unveils Education Accountability Plan; DOJ Recommends Microsoft BreakupAired April 28, 2000 - 5:00 p.m. ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK CITY: People in New York City sort of have a reputation for being very tough and they have a reputation for being kind of cynical, but the reality is that they're the most generous and the most loving people in the whole world.
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JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: A day after disclosing his prostate cancer, Rudy Giuliani exudes warmth, while his aides try to make the future of his Senate campaign seem less fuzzy.
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BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Landmarks are there, but something is missing. In a state which likes politics, voters are coming late to campaign 2000
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WOODRUFF: Bruce Morton on the political scene in Illinois.
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WILLIAM O'BRIEN, RET. MIAMI POLICE CHIEF: I refuse to be the chief of police in a city that has someone as divisive and disruptive as Joe Carollo as mayor.
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WOODRUFF: In Miami, political casualties from the Elian Gonzalez case.
ANNOUNCER: From Washington, this is INSIDE POLITICS, with Bernard Shaw and Judy Woodruff. WOODRUFF: Thank you for joining us. Bernie is on assignment.
We begin with the talk of New York and beyond, after Rudy Giuliani's prostate cancer diagnosis. Even many supporters who are interested, first and foremost, in the mayor's recovery also are anxious that he may decide not to run for the Senate, so Giuliani's aides are launching a new campaign of reassurance.
CNN's Frank Buckley looks at Giuliani's day and his future.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani remained on the job, but received a reminder of his newly diagnosed condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I brought you some get-well canoli from Royal Crown Bakery in Staten Island.
BUCKLEY: The kidding over the mayor's serious diagnosis, matched by his Senate campaign staff's furious effort to keep up appearances.
JULEANNA GLOVER WEISS, GIULIANI CAMPAIGN SPOKESWOMAN: At this point in time, the schedule is to remain as is, and we're going to go ahead.
BUCKLEY: Giuliani aides are on overdrive, reassuring reporters and supporters that the mayor is still in the Senate race, after he left the door open to the possibility of pulling out. He said Friday he plans to cut back on campaign events while he evaluates his future.
GIULIANI: Over the next two weeks, I need to meet with doctors and others to talk about what's the best thing to do, how should we do it, so I'm going to need to do that. So I will do some campaign events, but I will cut them probably in half.
BUCKLEY: But Giuliani's campaign sent signals the candidacy is still viable, sources telling CNN Giuliani is sending out two million pieces of direct mail and making his biggest ad buy to date. The mayor telling listeners on his weekly radio show that physically he's alright.
GIULIANI: I want to reassure everyone that I'm in very good spirits.
BUCKLEY: Some political observers say, from a raw political perspective, Giuliani could be helped by the health issue.
NELSON WARFIELD, FMR. BOB DOLE SPOKESMAN: There's also something from a sort of whole (UNINTELLIGIBLE) image, and that's been exacerbated with the sort of crises he's facing in New York City this year. This will certainly humanize him and generate sympathy; there'll be some warmth coming out of this whole episode for him. BUCKLEY: But if Giuliani decides to back out, Congressman Rick Lazio could be first to get in. The Long Island Republican said just last month that he was still open to a run. Other potential candidates, Westchester County DA Janine Piro (ph) and even New York Governor George Pataki. The governor saying, however, he expects Giuliani to be the candidate.
GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Obviously, he'll have to make a decision now based on how strong he feels, but I would hope that he would be in a position to continue to lead the city and help us lead the state into the 21st century.
BUCKLEY: Giuliani remains focused on his job as mayor for the moment, fully aware of the storm of speculation billowing around him.
GIULIANI: This is my 66th town hall meeting -- 76th.
BUCKLEY (on camera): Most Republicans here continue to believe Giuliani will run. And on May 30, they'll nominate they're Senate candidate at their state convention. They hope Rudy Giuliani will be ready to accept.
Frank Buckley, CNN, New York.
WOODRUFF: Mayor Giuliani plans to attend a Republican women's dinner in Upstate New York tonight, and he appears tomorrow in Buffalo, where Hillary Rodham Clinton now says she that she will join Giuliani at a forum sponsored by New York's Independence Party. Many see Giuliani's continued campaigning as an example of the fighting spirit that has been both an asset and a target of criticism during his political career.
WOODRUFF (voice-over): Political observers say the seeds of New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's combative nature were sown in childhood. He grew up a Yankees fan on the home turf of the Dodgers, Brooklyn, and took considerable heat from the kids in his neighborhood.
As a grownup and throughout his career, Giuliani has treated public service as a battle. He's built a reputation for straight talk, political independence and obstinacy. Controversy has followed him his entire public life.
As number three in the Reagan Justice Department, Giuliani made headlines, denying political asylum to Haitian refugees fleeing dictator Jean Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier.
As the U.S. attorney for New York's southern district in the 1980s, Giuliani humiliated three Wall Street traders accused of insider trading by parading them in handcuffs, took down '80s icons Michael Milken and Leona Helmsley and took on the mob. He jokes about that time fondly.
GIULIANI: It's nice of all yous to have me here tonight.
GIULIANI: Families are represented from all over the country.
WOODRUFF: In 1989, Giuliani ran for mayor, and narrowly lost to David Dinkins. He got his revenge four years later, and won re- election easily in 1997.
Giuliani's record as mayor, impressive and of course controversial. He has angered many New Yorkers, black and white alike, for his support of police officers in brutality scandals, but Giuliani has also led a transformation of New York from a bankrupt, crime ridden and dangerous place to the prosperous city best symbolized by the rebirth of Times Square.
His reputation, combined with Hillary Rodham Clinton's celebrity, has made their matchup the most talked about Senate race in the century, billed as the political slugfest to rival the best of the Madison Square Garden prize fights.
And now this.
GIULIANI: And I know all these cameras are here because they're very, very interested in all the issues that involve (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WOODRUFF: For Giuliani, politics has always been personal, and never more than now. The question on many New Yorkers minds, will this tough as nails mayor choose to fight for the Senate seat anyway, or step aside and focus exclusively on his illness?
WOODRUFF: And Joining us now, E.J. Dionne of "The Washington Post" and Bill Kristol of "The Weekly Standard."
Bill, what are the chances, do you think, that Rudy Giuliani might decide not make this race after all?
BILL KRISTOL, "WEEKLY STANDARD": Judy, I just spoke to Bruce Teitelbaum about 20 minutes ago, Mayor Giuliani's top political operative, who said the mayor gave the go signal this morning, the green light to go ahead with a plan, a 2 million piece direct mail drop with a major media buy for the month of May. Obviously, the mayor is going to have to make up his mind when he decides on the medical treatment that he's going to have, but the medical prognosis is good, the cancer is localized, and Bruce Teitelbaum said the mayor said to him, Bruce, you know me, I'm a fighter; as of now, at least, I plan to go ahead, and I plan to win.
WOODRUFF: E.J., based on what you know, do you believe he's going to go ahead? E.J. DIONNE, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, my inclination is to think he'll go ahead, and I think what Bill just said is interesting, because as soon as Giuliani got sick, people started speculating about, well, he didn't really want to make this race and there's some reluctance on his part, and so he would use this as an excuse to drop out, and I think it was very important that he send the signal that he seems to be sending through what Bill said and what others are saying, that no, no, no, he is really in this for reel. It would put the Republican Party in a very difficult position if he couldn't run, if he decided to drop out. None of the money he has raised, lot of which is money directed as much against Mrs. Clinton as it is for Mr. Giuliani -- none of that money could be transferred to another Republican candidate, so they'd have to kind of start from scratch.
Now you can probably raise a lot of money running against Mrs. Clinton, but it would be a problem, so I would guess he's going to run unless somebody terrible happens. But as Bill said, the health prognosis looks pretty good.
WOODRUFF: So, Bill Kristol, not even worth speculating about who might run in his stead.
KRISTOL: Well, it's always worth speculating, Judy; this is politics after all. Look, and we don't know, and Mayor Giuliani says, he's not certain right now. There are a bunch of names, a bunch of congressman, two from Long Island in particular, Rick Lazio, who was tempted to run earlier and backed out when Giuliani took a plunge, Peter King, also from Long Island, two independent, pretty attractive congressman, and then there's the question of Governor Pataki, who is not, I think, going to be George Bush's vice presidential pick, and who might be tempted to get in himself. And it's a late primary, a September primary, the Republican Party doesn't have its convention until May 30. So there's a whole month here for us to talk about this.
But look, I think the odds are Giuliani stays in, and if he does, obviously no one else gets it.
WOODRUFF: And E.J., predictions about whether this whole thing -- assuming he can keep this treatment under control, can continue campaigning -- any predictions about how this affects his strength as a candidate?
DIONNE: Well, I'm sure the last thing Rudy Giuliani wanted was to get cancer. I think -- but when you look at the flow of the campaign, the flow of the campaign was not very good for him at this point. This not only broke the flow of the campaign, but I was talking to a Democrat yesterday who said that Giuliani, not surprisingly, looked terribly human and sort of conveyed something that he had not easily conveyed when he was talking about issues or talking about talks, something -- a softer side of himself, and so I think that helps him. And obviously, Mrs. Clinton is going to lay off Rudy Giuliani for a while, so it gets in the way of what I think was a pretty good trajectory for her in this period.
But all that said, I'm sure Rudy -- Rudy Giuliani would still rather not have that cancer.
WOODRUFF: I want to interject here that CNN has learned that John McCain offered to -- to do whatever he could for Giuliani when he heard about the prostate cancer. And among other things, he's going to fill in for him on two Sunday shows, including here on CNN on "LATE EDITION."
Meantime, a lot of toing and froing about whether there's a meeting between John McCain and George W. Bush. There was a meeting between their two top aides today. They say the meeting is going ahead.
Bill Kristol, is this meeting going to be meaningful? Is it going to produce some results that are going to help George W. Bush in his march to the nomination and on in November?
KRISTOL: Well, who knows? And I don't think it will be terribly meaningful, but I don't know that it will be terribly reply damaging either. And at the end of the day, John McCain will support George W. Bush. I now think he will not be George W. Bush's vice presidential nominee. I once did think, right after March 7th when the primaries ended, that if Bush had really made a run at getting McCain for five or six weeks, had romanced him, had made a pitch to him, I think McCain was getable. I think that's the case anymore. So I think McCain will not be the VP.
They'll have a meeting, they'll have another meeting. McCain will speak in primetime at the convention, and the Bush campaign will chug ahead.
WOODRUFF: So, E.J., what role then does John McCain play in this election?
DIONNE: You know, what I think is funny, almost every week or every other week we discuss this. It's almost a soap opera, "The Edge of Endorsement." And I think the fact that we keep discussing it is -- talks about where the problem is, which is to say that McCain and Bush don't really like each other from everything you can gather. They do have real problems reaching any kind of accord on issues that Bush cares about.
McCain wants to preserve his integrity. He also wants to be a loyal Republican. He's got a terrible balancing act here, I think. And then there have been snafus all along the line where things leak out of one side or the other that get in the way of the endorsement that both sides claim to want.
In the end, I think McCain will support Bush. I think he's going to hold back a little bit. I think you're going to be able to tell that he's not wild about Bush. But he doesn't want to hurt himself in the long run.
If Bush loses and he wants to run again, he's going to have to look loyal enough that Republicans will take a look at McCain in 2004.
WOODRUFF: McCain, as we know, has been over in Vietnam for the 25th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, but before he left today, he had some very harsh words for the country where he was held prisoner. This is what he had to say.
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SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think that the wrong guys won. I think that they lost millions of their best people, who left by boat, thousands by execution, and hundreds of thousands who went to re-education camps. But the object of my relationship with Vietnam has been to heal the wounds that exist between particularly amongst our veterans and move forward with a positive relationship.
Apparently, some in the Vietnamese government don't want to do that, and that's their decision.
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WOODRUFF: Coming on the heels of that statement, which was made some hours earlier, our Bill Kristol, your -- your colleague, Tucker Carlson, and our frequent contributor, commentator here on INSIDE POLITICS, Tucker Carlson was detained in Vietnam.
Bill, what can you tell us about that?
KRISTOL: Well, he has been -- Tucker has been detained in Vietnam, perhaps in retribution for what they regarded as Senator McCain's harsh comments, but what were in fact truthful comments about who should have won the Vietnam War and the terrible consequences of the communist victory.
They said that Tucker did not have an exit visa. Apparently, they messed up and didn't stamp his passport on the way in. In any case, it was a ridiculous formality. There were harsh words exchanged at the airport.
Senator McCain held the Lufthansa flight up for a couple of hours, making an argument to let Tucker Carlson on board the plane with Senator McCain and his wife and the rest of the journalists who have been traveling with Senator McCain. The Vietnamese were obdurate and wouldn't let him on. They tried to make Tucker sign a statement that he had been in the country illegally. He refused to. They tried to make him fly up to Hanoi somehow on the grounds that that was the only place they could process his papers. He refused to do that.
He's with American embassy officials. They're -- they believe they will be able to get him out of there and get him back home. And we've obviously been in contact with the State Department, and I'm sure CNN has as well, and I'm sure it will work out.
But right now, Tucker is detained in Vietnam.
WOODRUFF: But your -- again, your assumption, Bill Kristol, is that he will be able to get out safely.
KRISTOL: Yes, I told our managing editor, Richard Starr, who was on the phone with him a few hours ago, to reassure Tucker that he was 5 1/2 years short of the amount of time that Senator McCain had been detained in Vietnam, and so he shouldn't worry.
No, look, it's not a laughing matter. I mean, he deserves to be -- he deserved to be on that flight out of there, and I hope and trust that he'll be out of there soon.
WOODRUFF: Well, I think that's true for all of us. We certainly do.
E.J. Dionne and Bill Kristol, thank you both very much for joining us.
DIONNE: Thank you.
KRISTOL: Thanks, Judy.
WOODRUFF: Up next on INSIDE POLITICS, from the windy city to down on the farm: We'll look at Illinois this election year and how some voters' views have been changing.
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AL GORE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Governor Bush says he cares about education and wants to improve our schools. Be that as it may, he has a bad plan.
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WOODRUFF: Al Gore invades Bush's turf in more ways than one.
WOODRUFF: In Al Gore's continuing criticism of George W. Bush's proposals, the vice president returned to the governor's home state of Texas today to address one of Bush's top issues, education.
CNN's Charles Zewe reports.
CHARLES ZEWE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Speaking to the Conference of Black Mayors in the heart of Bush country, the vice president said the federal government should withhold school funds from states that don't improve test scores.
GORE: Investment without accountability is a waste of money.
ZEWE: Gore said states should be required to set standards and identify failing schools, taking away their funding after two years.
GORE: If failing schools do not improve quickly, they will be shut down and reopened under a new principal, with a full peer evaluation of every single teacher, intensive training for those who need it, and fair ways to improve or speedily remove low-performing teachers. ZEWE: The vice president's latest education proposal expands on a $115 billion, 10-year accountability plan he proposed last May. That plan would cut class size by hiring more teachers, building new schools, enrolling more kids in preschool, and recruiting new teachers through scholarships and signing bonuses.
Gore's proposal largely mirrors an five-year, $13 billion education program proposed by George W. Bush, with the exception that Gore's plan would be a lot more expensive. Bush says families should be given tax breaks to save for college and vouchers to pay for after- school programs. He also favors rewarding schools that improve test scores. The big difference between the Gore and Bush plans is that Bush proposes that money pulled from failing schools should be turned over to parents in the form of $1,500 vouchers that could then be used for students to attend private schools. Gore opposes vouchers, contending they drain money from public schools.
GORE: Now what we don't need is the false promise of private school vouchers, which funnel public money into private schools that are not accountable.
ZEWE: Bush supporters argue the core of their plan is accountability, not dollars. And they contend Gore practically Xeroxed their proposals.
SANDY KRESS, BUSH SUPPORTER: It is a bit of a wonder that it has almost eight years that this administration has been in office and there's been no serious attempt to hold schools accountable, particularly for the performance of low-income youngsters in this country.
ZEWE: In the search for moderate votes, both Gore and Bush have taken on education and a number of other traditionally Democratic issues, a debate their advisers say is destined to grow more strident as the campaign goes on.
Charles Zewe, CNN, Dallas.
WOODRUFF: Now we travel to Illinois. It wound up being somewhat of an afterthought during the front-loaded primary season, but the state is considered a major battleground for the fall. So our Bruce Morton went there to get the lay of the Land of Lincoln.
MORTON (voice-over): The landmarks are there, the lion's guarding the Art Institute, Soldier Field, where the Bears play, city hall. The circus is in town. But something is missing. In a state which likes politics, voters are coming late to campaign 2000.
DAVID AXELROD, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Illinois used to be a pivotal state in the primary process. It wasn't a factor this time. And so the presidential race never reached us in the first place. RICH WILLIAMSON, ILLINOIS GOP CHAIRMAN: There's no statewide officeholders up for election, so you don't have the interest that comes from a senator or a gubernatorial race.
MORTON: Still, insiders are hard at work, and voters are starting to notice. Illinois is really three states, experts will tell you: Chicago, no longer Carl Sandburg's hog butcher to the world but full of new businesses, the suburbs, and downstate, smaller cities like Springfield, the capital, and farms. Key battleground: the suburbs. Who lives in them?
RICK PEARSON, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": You're still getting a lot of new families moving in, younger, not as conservative in their core as their parents who live in the suburbs used to be.
MORTON: Thomas Marcucci, mayor of Republican Elmhurst, agrees.
MAYOR THOMAS MARCUCCI (R), ELMHURST, ILLINOIS: Yes, I think we're all more liberal than our parents on the social issues, no question about it. We're much more tolerant.
PEARSON: One thin about Republican politics in Illinois is that when it comes to statewide candidates, they prefer a candidate who is a moderate candidate, not a conservative candidate. And given Governor Bush's stance on issues coming out of South Carolina -- and not just specifically the Bob Jones incident, but issues on abortion, issues on gun rights, those kinds of things don't necessarily resonate well among Republican voters in Illinois.
MORTON: Bush in Texas signed legislation that allows residents to carry concealed weapons with a permit. A problem in Illinois suburbs?
WILLIAMSON: Gun control is a more problematic issue in Illinois. And I think it is going to be somewhat of a problem, but the other side of it is he has other issues like education where I think he's going to have much more traction than his opponent.
MARCUCCI: We're concerned about it, clearly. The gun issue, you know, that's Texas. They do things different in Texas. They drank alcohol behind the wheel of moving cars in Texas until recently. And we kind of chalk it up to that.
MORTON: In Evanston, a Democratic suburb, Mayor Lorraine Morton says it's the economy that works for Gore.
MORTON: He is the natural heir apparent to the Clinton administration. Regardless of what people may wish to say about Clinton, a blind man can see that he has done more for this economy during his administration.
MORTON: Not the view in Elmhurst.
MARCUCCI: The general feeling on the sidewalks in my community is that the sins of Clinton will be visited on Al Gore. And he's got a lot of work to do to distance himself from a lot of the things that went on, the shenanigans in the White House, over the last seven years.
MORTON: Chicago alderman Richard Mell, whose Democratic ward will vote for Gore, hears the talk too.
RICHARD MELL, CHICAGO ALDERMAN: Some are saying, hey, Clinton, let's -- the Clinton era is over and let's keep it over. And if that's the case, he's going to have to prove that he's his own man. And I think that one of the things that I heard a couple times when he was right there after the impeachment standing right there rattling the flag, I don't think that did him any good.
MORTON: Governor Bush's state chairman, Governor George Ryan has been battered lately by stories alleging crooked dealings when he was secretary of state, bribe money finding his campaign fund and so on.
PEARSON: As more revelations surface every day, as the federal government looks into it, as indictments are coming out, people do have that feeling that maybe they got double dealt in November. And I don't think that helps any Republican that's on the ballot in Illinois in November.
MORTON: But it probably won't rub off on Bush.
Illinois is like America, a good model of the country, backing presidential losers only twice in the 20th century. Just about everyone agrees this election will be very close.
MELL: I think that both have strength, I think that both have weaknesses, and I think because of that we're going to see -- we could see an election in here similar to the one we had in 1960 with the Nixon-Kennedy election that was so razor-thin close.
MORTON: The edge went to Kennedy.
WILLIAMSON: I would doubt on October 15 if anyone can be too confident where Illinois's going to be. And nobody has an idea today.
MORTON: He's got that right.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Chicago.
WOODRUFF: Much more ahead on this edition of INSIDE POLITICS.
Still to come:
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WILLIAM O'BRIEN, RET. MIAMI POLICE CHIEF: I refuse to be the lightning rod of the divisiveness in this community. The community has to begin to heal.
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WOODRUFF: Is the police chief of Miami a victim of politics in the Elian Gonzalez case?
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WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Elian Gonzalez was certainly a problem. So a picture was called in, and he fixed it. For that, he gets a fee and the political "Play of the Week."
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WOODRUFF: Our Bill Schneider on the one man who earned political kudos in this controversial case.
WOODRUFF: We'll have more of the day's political news coming up, but now a look at some other top stories.
Federal prosecutors have filed a proposed antitrust remedy against Microsoft that would split the software giant in two. The Justice Department and 19 states are suing Microsoft, saying that it is a monopoly and has engaged in unfair trade practices.
With us now for more on the antitrust proposal is CNN's senior Washington correspondent, Charles Bierbauer -- Charles.
CHARLES BIERBAUER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Judy, indeed a federal judge has agreed that Microsoft has practiced monopolistic tendencies, and this is a proposal for how to remedy that. As you indicated, the Justice Department says split Microsoft in two. One of the new companies would be essentially the Windows operating system, which gives Microsoft so much of its monopolistic power, and in the other, just about everything else: Microsoft Office, the Internet Explorer.
The Justice Department says this would encourage innovation in two independent companies. Justice Department Assistant Attorney General Joel Klein...
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JOEL KLEIN, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Under our proposal filed today, neither the heavy hand of ongoing government regulation nor the self-interest of an entrenched monopolist will decide what is in the best interests of consumers. Rather, consumers will be able to choose for themselves the products they want in a free and competitive marketplace.
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BIERBAUER: Mr. Klein and the Justice Department says this would encourage innovation, but out in Washington State, Bill Gates, the chairman of Microsoft, says this would have a chilling effect on innovation. Mr. Gates and a couple of other senior executives would be required to choose one company or the other, although shareholders in Microsoft would get shares in both companies under this plan.
The Justice Department is asking for a reorganization plan four months after a final judgment is made. As everyone expects, even after Microsoft files its report to Judge Penfield Jackson and even after a hearing on May 24th, which is the next formal step, this is all certain to go on through the appeals and very likely up to the Supreme Court -- Judy.
WOODRUFF: All right, Charles Bierbauer, thanks very much.
And more reaction from Microsoft: A spokesman says that the government's recommendation is like telling McDonald's that it can only sell burgers but not fries, and that it has to give away the recipe for its secret sauce.
CNN's technology correspondent Rick Lockridge is in Redmond, Washington, home of Microsoft -- Rick.
RICK LOCKRIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Judy, Microsoft's recent custom when it comes to milestones in this historic trial is to issue statements from its own television studios just down the road here in Redmond rather than go before the media for question-and-answer sessions. And so about an hour ago, just about 40 minutes after the DOJ released its own proposed remedy, Microsoft's chief software architect and former CEO Bill Gates went before the camera to give his reaction.
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BILL GATES, MICROSOFT CHAIRMAN: These proposals would have a chilling effect on innovation in the high-technology industry. Microsoft could never have developed Windows under these rules.
Looking forward, this kind of regulation would make it impossible for Microsoft to develop the next generation of great software.
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LOCKRIDGE: Now, the question on a lost minds today is what would happen to consumers if Microsoft were, in fact, broken up, and there are a couple of scenarios that emerge. In one scenario, the companies would no longer be working under one roof. So presumably they wouldn't be making products that were perhaps as tightly integrated with each other and worked as well together, and in that case, consumers might in fact suffer, as Mr. Gates suggested they would.
The other scenario, though, let's just take, for example, the Linux operating system, which is a small system but has a fanatical following, but it's been hampered by the fact that there aren't a lot of programs that run on it that a lot of people use. For example, there is no Microsoft Word for Linux. There's no Internet Explorer for Linux.
But if Microsoft were broken in two and the applications company was then allowed to provide Microsoft Word for Linux, among other programs, then Linux might well take off and pose a viable competitor to the Windows operating system for the first time. That would be the first time that happened.
Of course, all of this, Judy, is still theorizing, because a breakup, if any, is still, as Charles mentioned, a long way off.
Rick Lockridge, CNN, live in Redmond, Washington. Back to you.
WOODRUFF: Thank you, Rick. And when INSIDE POLITICS returns, ads and the environment in campaign 2000. David Peeler on green spots and how much they're costing.
WOODRUFF: This week, the Sierra Club launched a six-month effort to highlight the environmental records of 17 Senate and congressional candidates, both Democrats and Republicans. Some of the ads are, like the ones that name Michigan Senator Spencer Abraham, are negative, while more positive ads are airing in other places, including Kansas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, SIERRA CLUB AD)
NARRATOR: Great Lakes pollution is closing our beaches, poisoning our fish and threatening our drinking water. But instead of helping, Senator Spencer Abraham has voted against clean water and the Great Lakes.
City waste and farm runoff have made the Kansas River one of America's most polluted rivers. Fortunately, our Congressman Dennis Moore has voted to fund enforcement of the Clean Water Act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: Joining us now, David Peeler of Competitive Media Reporting.
DAVID PEELER, COMPETITIVE MEDIA REPORTING: Hi, Judy.
WOODRUFF: David, how much is the Sierra Club `spending on this ad campaign?
PEELER: Well, we understand that the Sierra Club expects to spend about $8 million over the next six months. They've spent so far in 12 states, 17 congressional districts, and on the first day of spending, which was April 26th, they spent over $10,000 alone.
So I think they're off to a good start, and I think we'll see a lot more of this spending as the months unfold.
WOODRUFF: Well, meanwhile, the League of Conservation Voters is also calling attention to environmental issues in their new ad campaign. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, LEAGUE OF CONSERVATION VOTERS AD)
NARRATOR: Corporate polluters give politicians millions so they'll gut our clean air and water laws, but we can stop them. Vote environment. Who we elect matters.
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WOODRUFF: So, David Peeler, what about the League of Conservation Voters? How much are they spending?
PEELER: Well, this campaign kicked off -- interestingly, Judy, the campaign kicked off on the 19th, a little earlier than the Sierra Club campaign. What we've seen so far is they've spent about $300,000. They also expect to spend about $7 million to $8 million.
What's kind of interesting here might be the tactics. They're running in some Southern markets, but it almost looks like this group is kind of setting the table for the environmentally friendly candidates, and the Sierra Club is coming in and naming names. So it's kind of interesting, two separate groups, but it looks like a pretty well-orchestrated media campaign.
WOODRUFF: Separately, this Tuesday, voters in North Carolina will cast primary ballots for Democratic Governor Jim Hunt's successor. Lt. Governor Dennis Wicker and Attorney General Mike Easley are leading in the contest for the Democratic nomination. In earlier ads, the two attacked each other on the issue of a state lottery, but with the election just days away, the ads have taken a more positive turn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, EASLEY CAMPAIGN AD)
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: He's the only candidate with a plan to lower class size. He's endorsed by the Sierra Club, backed by law enforcement and only Mike Easley has a plan to help seniors pay for prescription drugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, WICKER CAMPAIGN AD)
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Only one's worked with Jim Hunt to raise test scores and teacher's pay -- Dennis Wicker. Only one has been endorsed by the Sierra Club and the Conservation Council for protecting the environment -- Dennis Wicker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: Governor Hunt has not endorsed either candidate in the party primary. But over on the Republican side, leading candidates Richard Vinroot and Leo Daughtry have waged a bitter ad war, filled with attack ads, although Daughtry's campaign says it has aired only positive ads over the last two to three weeks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, VINROOT CAMPAIGN AD)
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: New Leo says Vinroot's a liberal. Old Leo praised Richard Vinroot as a solid conservative. Old or new, Leo's all politics and no principles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Leo Daughtry, successful conservative businessman, created over 500 private sector jobs. Leo Daughtry, only Leo Daughtry, governor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: David Peeler, what do we know about the spending in this North Carolina race?
PEELER: Well, big difference here. The Democrats, Judy, are far outspending the Republicans. We look at Easley spending over $1.6 million, Wicker spending $1.7 million. You know, their the bigger names in the race, and they're raising the funds and spending it in a media campaign.
As we look to the Republicans, as we said, the Republicans have spent much less. Daughtry has spent about $460,000, Vinroot $350,000, very, very negative campaign on both sides and a very aggressive campaign.
You know, it's kind of interesting, there is actually a third Republican candidate, Chuck Neely, in the race, and he's actually created one of the best ads we've seen that none of the voters are ever going to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, NEELY CAMPAIGN AD)
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: I'm Richard Vinroot...
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: ... Leo Daughtry.
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Vinroot is a liberal.
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Feeling trapped?
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: ... and no principles.
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Want a better choice for governor?
CHUCK NEELY, CANDIDATE FOR NORTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR: You do have a choice. I'm Chuck Neely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PEELER: I think the story here is that you can come up with a great ad campaign, but you have to have the money to back it up. And the Neely campaign never got to air this ad because they didn't have the funds, they had to go to radio, so I guess you could call it a public relations spot, because we got to air it here for him.
WOODRUFF: All right, David Peeler, you're right. That was an intriguing ad. We'll be watching that race, and of course we'll report on the results after next Tuesday. Thanks a lot, David Peeler.
Still ahead, turmoil in Miami's political circles: a look at how the Elian Gonzalez case is shaking up city leaders.
WOODRUFF: Police in Miami have released the audio tapes of 911 calls made around the time that federal agents seized 6-year-old Elian Gonzalez at the home of his Miami relatives. There were calls that were received during and after the raid last Saturday from inside and outside the Little Havana home.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK, what's the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Federals came in, and we got people hurt, we got people bleeding.
911 OPERATOR: You got people bleeding?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. They come in, and we got people bleeding, we got people who were taken by guns.
911 OPERATOR: OK, sir, we'll have someone on the way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, help us!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: The Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the raid that was scheduled for next week has been postponed. The session was to have focused on Attorney General Janet Reno's decision to remove the boy and on the agents' show of force. But the Justice Department said that it could not provide all the requested documents by today's 5:00 p.m. deadline. The hearing will be rescheduled for sometime in the coming weeks.
While the Senate delays action on the Gonzalez case, Miami's mayor is taking decisive action.
Our Mark Potter takes a look at political firestorm erupting at city hall.
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was an emotional day at the Miami Police Department, which has been under attack from the mayor and some of the Cuban-American community. It all came to a head with a dramatic announcement: Chief William O'Brien, a 25-year department veteran, was resigning, and he blamed Mayor Joe Carollo. O'BRIEN: I refuse to be the chief of police in a city that has someone as divisive and destructive as Joe Carollo as mayor.
POTTER: Since the early morning raid last Saturday, where federal agents took Elian Gonzalez, Mayor Carollo has been angry at Chief O'Brien. O'Brien knew of the raid, but didn't tell the mayor, who had been actively supporting Elian's Miami relatives.
O'BRIEN: I was bound by law, but even if there hadn't been a law, there was no way I would have let him know about it.
POTTER: O'Brien, a former SWAT commander, said he was afraid if word leaked out, officers and others at the house could have been hurt. The mayor fumed that a Miami police supervisor actually rode in the van that came to get Elian, even though Carollo had promised that city officers would not be directly involved in the seizure. He was also angry about accusations that Miami police officers were heavy- handed with Cuban-American demonstrators. Under the Miami charter, only the city manager can fire the chief, and Mayor Carollo wanted him to do it. But Donald Warshaw, a former Miami police chief himself, refused. In fact, he praised O'Brien.
At a packed city commission meeting Thursday night, Mayor Carollo then fired city manager Warshaw.
MYR. JOE CAROLLO, MIAMI, FLORIDA: I hereby remove you from your position of city manager.
CAROLLO: Please, please! No, no, no.
POTTER: Late in the afternoon, Mayor Carollo responded to Chief O'Brien's resignation, by criticizing him.
CAROLLO: It has been his own men and women, the ones that have been calling me from before the Elian Gonzalez situation, telling me what a mess our police department has been .
POTTER: Meanwhile, a big political rally is scheduled for Miami's Little Havana. Organizers and police say they expect it to be calm.
Mayor Carollo says while Chief O'Brien and Manager Warshaw have, by his description, been trying to keep their jobs, he, the mayor, has been trying to keep things calm.
Mark Potter, CNN, Miami.
WOODRUFF: When we return, Bill Schneider explains how a Washington figure turned the Gonzalez case into a political play of the week.
WOODRUFF: In the battle over the future of 6-year-old Elian Gonzalez, the boy's father turned a person well-known in Washington circles, and our Bill Schneider says it was apparently the right move. And he joins us now to explain -- Bill.
SCHNEIDER: Well, Judy, you know, the fixer is a very familiar Washington figure. Got a problem? Call a fixer, someone who can work behind the scenes.
Clark Clifford was the most famous Washington fixer. President Clinton's fixer? Now, that would be Vernon Jordan.
Elian Gonzalez was certainly a problem, so a fixer was called in and he fixed it. And for that, he gets a fee and the political play of the week.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Fixers need connections, and boy, does Washington attorney Gregory Craig have connections. Craig advised Senator Ted Kennedy during his nephew's Palm Beach rape trial. William Kennedy Smith was acquitted.
In 1986, Kennedy tapped Craig to negotiate with Fidel Castro for the release of the last prisoners from the Bay of Pigs invasion. They got released.
Craig defended John Hinckley when he went on trial for attempting to assassinate President Reagan. Hinckley was found insane.
Craig defended President Clinton during the impeachment trial. Clinton was acquitted.
When Craig arranged for Elian Gonzalez's father to come to the United States to take custody of his son, the question came up, just who is Greg Craig working for?
GREGORY CRAIG, ATTORNEY FOR JUAN MIGUEL GONZALEZ: I represent Juan Miguel as an individual. I take my instructions from him.
SCHNEIDER: In fact, Craig was hired by U.S. church groups, but some conservatives see sinister connections.
LARRY KLAYMAN, JUDICIAL WATCH: The fact that you have Gregory Craig, the president's lawyer, representing the boy -- representing father, who appears to be under the influence of Fidel Castro, suggests that in fact the administration is in bed with Castro.
SCHNEIDER: It's even reached the streets of Little Havana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Clinton-Castro-Craig conspiracy will surface. SCHNEIDER: Craig's crowning achievement came in the war of the photographs. Which picture would define Elian's transfer to his father's custody? This one or this one?
Craig got the second photo released within hours of the first one. It was a triumph of public relations.
Did Craig take the photo? He denies it.
CRAIG: That photograph came out of a disposable camera that Juan Miguel himself had, and I think it was taken by either an INS agent or a Marshal within minutes after the time that they arrived at their location.
SCHNEIDER: Yesterday, the federal appeals court ruled that the boy's father could enter the case on behalf of his son, which means Craig can now make his argument in court.
CRAIG: The notion that Elian Gonzalez has a full understanding of the test that's required for an application for asylum, which is a reasonable fear of persecution, I don't believe that a 6-year-old can make that decision, and I think the court will ultimately say, yes, the father is the one person that has the right to make that decision for the boy.
SCHNEIDER: If the court does say yes, as many legal experts expect, then the father will get his son. But Gregory Craig has already got the political play of the week.
SCHNEIDER: Imagine what would have happened if that second photo of Elian with his father had not been taken. Critics of the raid in Miami would have found a lot more public support.
Being a fixer involves more than being a good lawyer: It also requires a talent for public relations -- Judy.
WOODRUFF: All right, Bill Schneider, thanks very much.
And that's all for this edition of INSIDE POLITICS. This weekend programming note: Vice President Al Gore will be among Wolf Blitzer's guests Sunday on "LATE EDITION." That's at noon Eastern.
I'm Judy Woodruff. "WORLDVIEW" is next.
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